The bass in 802 was never there and you've just realized it. |
Wrong position for the speakers and/or the listener. |
Kr4 is right. You and/or your speakers are now in a null point in the room. It will be tedious, but you have to move yourself and/or the speakers in small increments until you determine you are out of the null position. Before you moved them, you were in a "hot spot" where the bass was overwhelming. It's all trial and error.
Good luck.
Shakey |
You've a "bass suck".. and it's tricky to find the bass is some rooms place the loudspeakers in the corners 6" away from the wall toe-in to the listening position. The 802 do have bass slam!
Q |
Your comments about the "nice bass slam" and the woofers "popping away like mad" make me think that you may have overdriven, and blown your speakers. |
yeah speaker performance just does not disappear. The 802 d's obviously have enough performance specifications to provide a good solid bass floor since I have the lower sibling, the 804 d's which supply more than enough bass for my somewhat small room. One thing, make sure you connected your speakers in phase. I just re hooked my speakers up out of phase by accident and found that you lose all focus and tonality. And yes, indeed trial and error. Speaker positioning and also are the speakers pointing forward at an upward angle? Not only do you lose some focus the highs can be affected by this especially if you are at a somewhat close proximation to the speakers. Were your speakers sitting atop a wood floor as opposed to much more solid concrete floor? Look at the whole listening environment and try to pinpoint what might affect the overall sonics of the room. |
I had a bit more of a play and this is what ive found.
When sitting in the listening position there is no bass. when standing in the same spot there is the bass im looking for. Its still a bit soft. But i think thats my amps being too small rather than positioning.
Further the speakers come off the wall more empty the bass becomes but less adulterated by collection in corners.
Thanks for fk'all Marakanetz your opinion is as about as useful as a hole in the head. |
Edit: I changed the phasing over to ensure they were not out of phase and they are not. |
What's the rest of your system? |
lol I would rather not say, its embarrasing. I have some a component in for repair.
PC- Asus Xonar STX DAC (analog out) - NAD C372- B&W 602S3
- 2x Rotel RB 1070 - B&W 802D
The NAD currently is the preamp for the rotels running in bridged mono.
Yes the rotels are too small.
Im looking to get new amps and a Schiit DAC in the near future.Im pretty keen on pass X600's |
hmmm...whether you feel your amps are not up for the task is one thing but i cannot understand why you have absolutley no bass at all. I can see a change in the overall sonics when you change the speaker position but it usually is not as drastic as you have described. Having said that the 802's do need some extra power to drive them effectively. Have you tried to put them back to its original spot just to make sure something has not gone faulty with your components?
Whats your budget for new amps? I like the Bryston with the B&W product. I use it and so do alot of fellow audiophilliacs in my area. |
What are the dimensions of your room? Look up the Cardas speaker placement formula (google it). Try that out first and then slowly move your speakers closer to the wall behind them one inch at a time. |
http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_calculators.php |
Sumiko Master Set speaker placement is the best way to find the best positioning in difficult rooms. |
Here is a link to the Sumiko Master Set Up.
http://www.hifi.ir/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/master-set.pdf
Helped a friend set his speakers up in a new house with this and frankly didn't like the imaging it was giving us, but it is another good tool to try with. |
I did consider 2 Bryston 7BSST2's. The have the best warranty out there and have ample grunt. After having a visit from an expert he said my room is very bright, the speakers are very bright and the brystons are very bright and it could give me one of the most fatiguing systems out there.
I Havent written them off entirely. I Was thinking going something warmer like the Pass.
Its hard to decide as I cant audition anything where i live i have to fly 1200Km's before I can get to a capital city in australia.
Ill have to keep toying around with placement etc and see if it bears fruit.
The rotels drive the speakers reasonably well but it is very evident that they lose control of the bass at high volumes. You can see it in the driver excursion and definately hear it.
My budget is maybe like 10k for amps so im looking to go second hand. I would rather let someone else pay for the loss of value as soon as the amp comes out of the box.
I think Quad-mans theory of a bass suck might be on the money. I will have a go at these speaker placement programs. My room is an odd shape though so it might be a bit weird. |
The Rotel is enough power to make the bass but you could get more texture with more power. Better amps tend to be more detailed in the mids/highs and power seems to affect bass tonality in my limited experience.
I demoed the 802d on both Rotel and classe' amps back to back (also on AR tube gear) and it was not as night and day as one may think.
You may even want to look at wyred 4 sound. I like them a lot and they control the bass very well. They are dirt cheap and good, not just good for the money but actually good. Bryston also seems bright to me (at the very least neutral) and the 802d on the bright side.
Your issue sounds like a bass null too me for what it is worth. |
Ellrotts,
I don't think theres anything to be ashamed of with regards to your system. If you like it, who cares. Anyway, I think you may have answered your question in your post where you list your equipment. You say that some if you gear is out for repair. Its possible that may be your problem. If you put the NAD in the system while your current preamp is out, that could be the reason for the lack of bass. I've seen this happen several times. In my own system, for example, I had a PS Audio preamp that was just OK. When I upgraded to a much better CJ preamp, it sounded like I added a sub. The difference was huge. The CJ was just letting more information pass through it. I can't say if this is definitely your problem; just that you may want to consider it. |
I didn't get a chance to read all of the above comments but I will tell you to check the phase. Use a nine volt battery and a small wire lead, touch the leads to the speaker wire at your amp (disconnect them from the amp first!). The positive lead of the battery goes to the suspected positive and the negative to the negative. If the sub moves in the leads are backwards, if it pushes out it is correct. That will give you a definitive answer as to the phase of the speakers, just make sure to test all of them. Then of course there is the possibility that you blew them up and they need replacing. Also the positioning of the speakers in the room can make a huge difference as well. So if they were to much up against a wall, and to little when pushed away. I would push them back towards the wall and raise them off the floor.
I hope I helped,
Andrew
Synesthesia Studios |
Yeah Bryston in the past has been very bright almost too bright with past models. The Newer SST 2 seems to have to my ears anyhow , have remedied that with a much more even/full sound and from what I understand very favourable to many auido equipment reviewers. And BTW, your Rotels are quite good, so I agree with Zd542, nothing to be ashamed of and if these amps have been pleasing to you in the past, I would tweak around your room til the cows come home. |
Ellrotts,
I have gone through MANY amps to find the ONE that has made my B&W 802D SING like I knew they could.
If you put "bright" or "warm" with them then that is what you will here.
They need LOTS of power and I do not mean just watts. I have also found they benefit from bi-wired or bi amped.
Some of the amps I have tried (with no other changes to my system); Theta Digital, Halcro, Bryston(14B SST2), Classe(600M), Nuforce(Ref18), Krell, Ayre, Pass Labs, Mcintosh, ARC, Spectron (Mono only) and several others.
Of the above the new Classe 600M and Pass Labs XA 100.5 and Spectron Mono came close but their size, heat, electric cost, and price gave me pause.
Then I had a chance to try a new Class D amp based on Hypex Ncore NC1200. It is the Veritas Mono by Merrill Audio.
All I can say is WOW! It gave my everything I was looking for and more. It was like I had a whole set of different speakers. And the BASE? Who needs a sub woofer.
And I am not the only one saying that about the Veritas and the base with their speakers.
Some of them own MBL and Maggie with Pass and ARC.
You might be able to demo them so contact Merrill and see what he can do for you. |
I have been playing around with the room a lot. I have made some changes which are very positive in the mid/ high area. but after more in depth investigation i have found that there is no bass when seated in the middle of the room.
If i sit on the floor i have bass, If i stand i have bass. Just no bass on a chair from the equilateral triangle listening point all the way to the back of the room. Its bloody odd.
The bass is everywhere and MASSIVE when in the centre beside/ behind the speakers. Its so massive i almost lose balance and soil my pants. As soon as I move forward its gone. |
Might need to change your short wall / long wall set up. That or switch ends of the room with system and chair. This is definitely a room acoustic issue. |
Im in australia. Wheres merrill? thanks for the advice Hifal. |
Merrillaudio.net
He is based in New Jersey, USA. But I believe he has sold in Australia. Send him an email. He is very responsive and is accommodating were he can be. |
