Thanks.I agree with that;will post about the result |
Friend
To an extent - extra power will bring more dynamics and weight to a presentation as long as the rest of the sysyem is capable! |
I think that bass response has something to do with watt power.In my office, i will use Trlin Audio 320B XLS SET monoblocks.He wanted to make them 10 Watts each,but i insisted on full power - 18 watts per channel.
I think that somehow these extra 8 watts will contribute to better bass output.I don't need them for volume reasons, we listen to music very quietly in the office.
I think tubes will last shorter this way and all 18 Watts will contribute to the sound, no matter how loud i listen to the music.
I know most of you will not agree with this, but i think i am right.I will find out soon enough, that's for sure.
P.S.The speakers are B and W 602 s3 (90 db).Maybe i will replace them with Silverline monitor 17.5 in some time. |
Friend
I am running a homemade SET with about 1.8 watts per channel on 93 db horn speakers! Yes, VERY tight and articulate bass!!!!!!!!!!!
Keep in mind that alot of what most people hear in the bass department being reproduced by their systems was never recorded on the disc or album. This is sometimes due to the relationship between amplifier and speaker.
The speakers ends up producing a "Boom Boom" type sound that many have come to accept as "Monster Bass". Then they get to the concert and do not hear this live and wonder why!
Yes, tubes can do it with the right loudspeaker! Other than flying around the country to audition different systems - you can read articles from websites like http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/archives/equipment/amplifier.htm to get a feeling of which amplifiers do what best! It won't cover all amplifiers - but it will give you an idea as far as what has been reviewed; and, they do grade the products under review.
Triodes are best but have limited power. Pentodes are more powerful in the watts department but will not match the fine detail of a triode. Decisions...decisions!
Hope this helps
Studio 1 |
Swampwalker,i believe you.From my short experience,Ralph is very knowledgeable.
I spoke to Trlin about Atma-sphere,and he has told me good things about that company.So they are known in Croatia.
Trlin also told me that he has planned building an OTL prototype amp himself, but never got around to do it.He will use 6C33C tubes in his amp.Russian-made. |
Audiobob- FWIW, Ralph (Atmasphere) is well known among U.S. audiofools for impeccable integrity, outstanding customer service, and intellectual generosity. You may find an amplifier that has better synergy in your system, but its pretty unlikely that you will one that is a better value. The amp that replaced his in my system cost more than twice the price. |
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+++Audiobb, This is an interesting speaker- it seems like it has a dual woofer system, but apparently the second woofer is on a different circuit.
So that would seem to make all the circuits 8 ohms. I would check with Silverline on this to be sure.+++
You are right on both things.I already checked with Silverline;every circuit is exactly the same - 8 ohm stable (+/-10% max)
I have checked your products;not until yesterday i figured out you are a manufacturer(i didn't notice your user name).OTL idea certainly seems interesting and theoretically right.But the problem is i have no posibillity to hear any of your amps.I am located in Croatia;you have no dealer here and no-one i know has any of your gear.But i would gladly match it up against Trlin Audio's top products.His amps do use OT,but i'm sure he can take the sound further than the sound i mentioned earlier.It would be a good and interesting duel of high-quality amps.
Thanks for your advice;I am aware i can run into difficulties,but i think i can overcome those.I aim at "the best of both worlds",which is always hard to achieve.
Your amps seem to be picking up the best of both designs,tubes and transistors.
I wish i could test some of your products in the future.
All the best wishes to you and your company. |
Audiobb, This is an interesting speaker- it seems like it has a dual woofer system, but apparently the second woofer is on a different circuit.
So that would seem to make all the circuits 8 ohms. I would check with Silverline on this to be sure.
Asking an amp manufacturer like me what amp they would use seems to me a loaded question- of course I recommend my own gear :). Alan's speakers have always worked well with our stuff. He invited us to show with him at CES one year (in fact on another year we did have equipment in his room) but some nasty events that some 'goners may remember intervened.
My feeling is that whatever amp you get, I would be careful about crossing everything over. My own experience with electronic crossovers is that you spend a lot of time getting things to blend- often never quite getting there. Using the same type of amp on each part of the system helps, but you can still run into difficulties. At any rate, it sounds ambitious- good luck with it! |
Atmasphere,
i would like your opinion on amp-building for my speakers.
I own Silverline Sinfonia.Link:
http://www.silverlineaudio.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=18
Each speaker has 3 connections,so is tri-ampable.
1.connec. - treble and 2" midrange
2.connec. - 7" mid-bass and front 12" woofer
3.connec. - 12" rear woofer
The first idea for amp was 6 320B XLS monoblocks (3 per speaker).Silverline also liked it.
But now,for me it seems the best to use 320B XLS on first and 2nd conn.,and bipolar transistor monoblock (limited on 18 W,same power as 320B XLS) on rear 12" woofer.
Reason-peak and recovery time.Same thing is also recommended
to me by two constructors,both in bussines more than 10 years.
But now you say that proper tube amp can also give what i need.So i am puzzled.What would you use in my place?
Keep in mind,all can be built EXACTLY to my wishes.And i will use constructed amps(of excellent quality),not Krell or Ayre or CJ finished products.
The rest of my system:
CD-still not decided(volume contr. will be in CD pl. or DAC,eliminating separated pre-amp)
IC-Gabriel Gold Revelation (whole system)
Speaker cable-Nordost Valhalla (whole system)
Silverline Sinfonia speakers
I mostly listen to heavy metal (90%).Also jazz,some classical and blues and acoustic music.
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Audiobb, I play heavy metal too and I also have a few friends in the heavy metal world and I opened for Therion when they toured here a couple of years ago. The start and stop of a Kick drum is *way* too slow for any sort of stop and start that might actually be a 'damping factor' phemon! If you look at a bass drum waveform, you will see that even in a fast double bass passage, the waveform dies out as the kicker pedal is damping the waveform. Speakers are a whole lot faster than that: even a 15" has bandwidth to 500-800Hz. The bass drum (actually a typical area where 'damping factor' is brought up) is a red herring.
Jmaldonado's comment about bass extension is non-sensical, although I have to guess that it is only based on his experience. So I will share an experience of our own:
Some years back we used the Snell Model B for our main system. The speaker is full range, and was easily driven by our smaller M-60, although it was only 89 db. We went through 4 sets of woofers before Snell replaced the woofers with a re-engineered set that was more durable. We were not damaging the voice coils- the spider part of the suspension was failing, due to the excursions we were putting the speaker through (we like to play stuff with impressive bass tracks, as with 1 Hz full power in our amps, the bass we get is a strong point in our products). Snell told us that they had the same problem with mastering houses that were doing lots of dance tracks with heavy bass (we were playing that sort of material too)- see http://www.atma-sphere.com/awards/bya/index.html
for some of the discography.
So tube amps can put as much excursion on a speaker cone as a transistor amp, FWIW. In our case, in repeated demos with transistor amps, I have yet to see one that has proper bass extension. So while I accept that transistor amps can play bass, I do not accept that they can do it any better than a proper tube amp. |
""The are no worries about 'stopping' and 'starting'- unless you listen to some very weird, amusical stuff that no-body has made up yet :)""
I don't agree with this.Every bass drum pedal hit is a sudden start and stop.Of course,it is an electric waveform,but our ear hears it as "start and stop".
And if you have dynamic double bass (in heavy metal for ex.),it will sound better with SS.More tight and controlled.
Atma is obviously an expert and knows more on subject than the rest of us.But i only report what i heard myself.
I thought damping factor was a part of it,and i am still not convinced it isn't.I read Atma's post a few times,and i'm still gonna get into that.But obviously Peak and Recovery time is better with SS.
I like tube amps more,espec. SET,but SS also has its strong points. |
Atma Most speakers if heavily damped will in fact not be able to reproduce the bass waveform. A tiny clarification: "overdamped" could be the result of a combined effect of driver & amp. I.e., if one uses a highly damped Lowther PM4 (x-max 1mm, flux: 24.000 gauss, quoted Fs= ~35Hz) for bass duty and drives this with a low output impedance amp, the audible low frequency result will be... inaudible. The amp-driver combo is over-damped (i.e. the electrical q is approaching 0 :) ). This is just for the sake of example, no-one to my knowledge uses a PM4 for bass -- but I think it illustrates what atma is referring to. \ |
T_BONE: Another question back at you would be... how much tube power (watts vs output impedance) would one need to adequately power an 8ohm 96db woofer? say, the way a 40W solid state amp might... Theoretically, Watts are exactly the same whether they come from a solid-state or a tube amp, so a 40 Watt tube should produce the same acoustic output as a 40 Watt SS amplifier. In practice, it depends on how conservative are both manufacturers on their power specs, but the differences should be negligible even for differences up to tens of percent (for example, a 40 W SS amp vs. a 30-60 W tube amp). A more relevant factor is: How loud you like your music? With 40 Watts, you can have undistorted peak acoustic levels of about 112 dB at 1 meter with your speaker in anechoic conditions. Adding the other speaker and the room gain, you could easily surpass 120 dB peaks in your seat!! Ironically, at such loud levels a solid-state amplifier with better bass extension might stress your speakers and cause them to produce a phenomenon known as "Doppler distortion" (don't confuse this with another, notorious concept mentioned in the H-thread). In this case, a tube amplifier having weaker bass would produce a cleaner, more enjoyable sound, provoking the logical conclusion that the tube amp sounds "better" than the more accurate solid-state amp. The morals of the story is: If you want powerful low bass from your amplifier, first make sure your speakers can handle it! Regards, |
Damping factor does not play much of a role in the sound of a speaker, previous posts notwithstanding! In fact damping factor is really a spec that gets touted a lot, but would seem to be mythological in its effects.
Damping factor is a means of expressing the output impedance of an amplifier. It is true that as the output impedance of the amp gets closer to the load impedance, that distortion rises, but the idea that the amp 'looses control' of the speaker is a myth, really a sort of chicken and egg thing.
In a conventional speaker, the voice coil requires a certain amount of power in order to displace the speaker. Any amp, regardless of its 'damping factor' that can make the power can displace the cone the same amount. At any and *ALL* cone positions that are possible, the cone will be in that position *because of the power from the amplifier directing it to that position*.
Note also that all bass waveforms (where 'damping factor' is touted as an issue) are real-world mathematical functions, and therefore continuous in nature. The are no worries about 'stopping' and 'starting'- unless you listen to some very weird, amusical stuff that no-body has made up yet :)
Most speakers if heavily damped will in fact not be able to reproduce the bass waveform. This is one of the reasons that high damping factor amplifiers tend to be bass shy, while at the same time having a sort of 'punch' but being otherwise bereft of bass definition and tone. Problematic, as amplifiers with a high output impedance can on some speakers fail to cut power in the frequency band where the speaker/cabinet system develops resonance.
How is this solved? It turns out that there are 2 paradigms of design, test and measurement in competition in the world of audio today. *IF* you mix equipment from one paradigm with that of the other, you will have a mismatch- it will not work right. see:
http://www.atma-sphere.com/papers/paradigm_paper2.html
for a more in-depth explanation of the differences in these paradigms.
BTW there are tube amps with full power to 1Hz and able to reproduce 20Hz square waves with no measurable tilt. This bandwidth has nothing to do with power or output impedance FWIW. |
Jmaldonado, thanks for the clarification. I guess I now have an explanation for why I like my tube amps vs others that I have tried on the relatively efficient woofers of my even more efficient speakers. I have thought about powering the woofers with solid state, but have thus far avoided it.
Another question back at you would be... how much tube power (watts vs output impedance) would one need to adequately power an 8ohm 96db woofer? say, the way a 40W solid state amp might... |
+++Audiobb, I am surprised the 300B sounded better than the Cambridge consider the fact that you were using B&W 602+++
You shouldn't be.Tubes will give better mids and treble in variety of speakers.Regardless of impedance curves.We tested with few B&W (from 601 to 801D),Tannoy,Focal JM,Dynaudio etc.
+++Had you been using appropriate speakers, you may find your 300B capable of the same (or better) bass than the Cambridge.+++
I agree that,coupled with more tube-friendly speakers(8 ohmstable,93 db+),300B will improve in bass.But,according to our tests,Cambridge gives out more tight and precise bass.In my book,better and more linear bass.This is primarily caused by 2 things:
1.DAMPING FACTOR-Cambridge has couple times higher than SET amps.This can be improved with output trans.
2.PEAK AND RECOVERY TIME-Transistors are better than tubes there.Best are bipolar transistors.This is not my opinion,but plain fact.
For bass output,we have found transistors sonically better.BUT even better result still can be achieved with tubes-but it probably will cost sky high.See the previous post of Jmaldonado.But it still would never catch transistors in Peak and recovery time - which means not enough fast start and stop of bass driver.And for me it is essential. |
T_bone, as amfibious said, I was talking about damping factor. This has been one of the big discussion themes since the 70's, but apparently it keeps being ignored by most audiophiles. Regardless, it will always be important because it predicts how good is the amp's ability to generate a bass fundamental without the speaker circuit altering its amplitude. Why this happens? The question has to do with the current vectors created in a third order (or bigger) circuit, such as that found in all speakers. It's pure math, but you can measure it and of course listen to it. It manifiests itself as a "boomy" bass at a certain favorite band of frequencies which depends on how the speaker was designed, and how well (or bad) the amp can control it.
Why do I think solid state amplifiers have the advantage? Transistors are low-voltage, high-current devices, whereas tubes are the opposite, i. e. high-voltage, low-current devices. Virtually all speakers in production today are low impedance transducers, varying from 8 ohms down to 1 ohm. THEY NEED CURRENT TO WORK! By nature, they work best with transistors due to their lower output impedances, and better damping factors. Besides, in order to equal a solid-state amplifier current capability, you would need a battery of 30 or 40 tubes in parallel (remember Julius-Futterman OTLs?). That's why most tube design depend on an output transformer in order to compensate for the disparity between tubes and speakers. However, IMHO transformers bring even worst evils than they cure. They introduce even more coloration, hysteresis distortion, they attenuate the lower bass, they introduce phase-shifting, etc. The situation is just hopeless.
I have no doubt that somebody will say "But I like the bass of my tube amplifiers better than a solid-state's. They really kick in ________ recording!". That's OK. It's just a personal preference, a very romantic one... ;)
Regards, |
Jmaldonado, can you please explain why you feel a tube amplifier needs at least 40wpc to good bass?
I know that statement is patently false as I have seen published numbers of a Decware 2wpc amp going down to about 10Hz at ย3db, but I would like to hear your spin on how you correlate frequency response to output power.
Regards
Paul |
It's so hard not to generalize here. I've heard a lot of systems where the bass did seem a bit bloated or sluggish with tube gear, but, when that is certainly not the case with all tube gear. All of the very best sounding systems I've heard were driven by tube gear and of all different sorts -- single ended, low-powered pushpull (particularly based on Western Electric components), and OTLs.
I don't know, and don't really care if the bass went super low or if the system was capable of really prodigious output, what I do know and care about is whether the tonal quality of bass instruments is right. A lot of systems touted for their bass quality actually don't deliver properly tuneful bass. |
Can tube amps give true high end bass? Let's assume the speakers are optimally set up in the room (bery few are). Also, that "hi end" bass means as close to the original as possible. Given these premises, of course a tube CAN produce bass... It's not primarily a tube vs. ss question. It's a matter of application. Comments such as I also have an original master of a jazz trio recorded with very expensive mikes and no compression. The bass sounds best with my SET can make sense: the set offering very linear amplification (within its limitations) will obviously sound superior to a less linear amplification circuit... Keep in mind that tubes offer the advantage of a (limited) linear amplification range, whereas transistors need some feedback to stabilise their operation. The common misconception is that ONE amplifier, be it tube or ss should be called upon to amplify signals in linear fashion going fm dc to daylight, and drive a speaker, in turn expected to reproduce sounds from dc to daylight in a linear fashion... In an ideal world, we'd have amps for mid-bass down and amps for the rest of the spectrum -- but we don't. So of course we are ultimately left with the often frustrating task of having to try out infinite spkr-amp combos in hope of striking the magical set-up -- be it tube or ss. |
Audiobb, I am surprised the 300B sounded better than the Cambridge consider the fact that you were using B&W 602. Had you been using appropriate speakers, you may find your 300B capable of the same (or better) bass than the Cambridge.
+++ But these 300B monos could be improved with better output transformer +++
Possibly, but it's bad would most certainly be improved by speaker presenting a more benign load. As an analogy, think of using a 300B of B&W equivalent to diving a Ferrari on the beach ... not very smart.
Regards
Paul |
I think it's horses for courses. My choice for an amp if I was going to play Jimi Hendrix's Purple Haze would be SS. I'd want that woofer going out as far as it could and coming back and stopping when it should. I also have an original master of a jazz trio recorded with very expensive mikes and no compression. The bass sounds best with my SET. I hear much more detail which in that situation makes it better for me. |
+++ No they cannot on anything under 8 ohms +++
Pray tell me why not? |
The differencies are VERY noticeable even above 40 Hz.
I tried a system in my office:
1.PC as transport
2.Audio Note DAC 2.1 Signature
3.B&W 602 S3
4.Kimber VS8 speaker cable
Both with CAMBRIDGE AUDIO 640 V2 integrated SS amp,and with SET 300B MONOBLOCKS (2 x 9W).A/B testing for few hours.
Results - better than expected with every amp.BUT:
1. 300B monos had a better vocal,and treble and midrange alltogether.Which was expected,of course.
2. Bass - SS amp had more tight and more precise bass.Especially noticed in fast double-bass parts.More than depth,the bass SPEED was a problem for 300B.
Dynamic fast bass drum (double bass pedals) were significantly better with Cambridge amp.But these 300B monos
cuold be improved with better output transformer (which is the most important part for bass in SET amp).
This is why i plan to use SS monos on rear 12" woofer of my Silverline Sinfonia,as mentioned above in my post.Best of both worlds. |
NO they cannot on anything under 8 ohms |
Amfibius, Thank you very much for the explanation. I had ignored damping factor as a possible reason for this "resonance" because Jmaldonado talked about the amplifier rather than the amplifier/speaker interface. I realize that speaker impedance curves are (generally) not linear and for most speakers, will drop around the bass (except for my former ESLs) leading to the lowest DF at the lowest bass. I guess I automatically assume that people, especially those with low-power SETs, would seek appropriately matched speakers so they would get speakers with low DF requirements. My tube amps do quite well with my efficient and high impedance woofers, though my amps are "cursed" with very large OPTs and a surfeit of power and my speakers are designed to use low-power amps.
I wonder if that is the reason why we tube amp owners "miss" the lowest frequencies in the bass... I had thought that the main reason I was missing 12Hz was that my speakers reportedly only go down to 18Hz :^).
In any case, I would have thought that once one gets down to below 40Hz, it becomes much more an issue of the speaker's frequency curve than the amp's (if properly matched) and in the real world, anything below 60Hz and I expect that room loading/acoustics will make a mockery of the "flat frequency response curve" that an amp, tube or SS, produces. |
T bone, I think that Jmaldonado is talking about the damping factor. The damping factor refers to the amp's ability to control the motion of the driver. The DF is a ratio of the impedance of the speaker and the output impedance of the amplifier. Most SET amps have DF's around 10-20, whereas good SS amps have a DF of >100. A system with a poor DF will be unable to start and stop the woofer with any great degree of precision, so the woofer cone will continue to oscillate for a period of time. This gives "bloom" to the bass. You can get used to it ... in fact it's one of my guilty pleasures :)
The other thing to note is that speaker impedance curves are not linear and tend to drop around the bass region.
Most tube amps have output transformers which will help to lower the output impedance but output transformers can introduce their own sonic colourations as well. |
what is high end bass and what is it's opposite, low end bass ? the phrase "high end" is less meaningful and more ambiguous, since there is no definition of the term other than one's personal opinion, than the simple straightforward concept of articulation of bass notes and a natural timbre of an instrument which reproduces frequencies below 80hz.
this is just an example of a continual use of audio adjectives which does not further communication.
why not be more specific and say what you really mean ? |
Have to disagree,yes solid state can provide that kick ass bass,but you gotta ask yourself is that what it's supposed to sound like.Suggest,if at all feasible, you do a shoot out between a top shelf tube and an solid state.
If you enjoy music the way it is meant to be heard...well you be the judge. |
Jmaldonado says... Besides, the higher output impedance of tube amps create the conditions for slightly undamped resonance that adds to the "joy" factor. The end result is a warm, rich bass around the 40-200 Hz region to which you have become accustomed by now. Jmaldonado, where do these "undamped resonances" come from and how do they manifest themselves? I am perfectly willing to believe the "joy factor" you mention comes from colorations, but how does "high output impedance create conditions for undamped resonances? Are they speaker cabinet resonances? Even worst, you probably are missing the very lowest bass frequencies that only a solid-state amp can produce, and which contribute greatly to the realism of your bass playback. Jmaldonado, please elucidate. Why would this be the case? What frequencies are we talking about? Those below 40Hz? Regards, |
Ulf, there's no way a tube amp will produce better bass than a solid-state amp. It's just the laws of physics. Specially, not a 40 Watt tube amp! What you are probably describing as "better bass" has to do with the coloration and second harmonic distortion that your tube amp is generating. Besides, the higher output impedance of tube amps create the conditions for slightly undamped resonance that adds to the "joy" factor. The end result is a warm, rich bass around the 40-200 Hz region to which you have become accustomed by now. The problem is, this bass is a distorted version of the original as stored in your recordings. Even worst, you probably are missing the very lowest bass frequencies that only a solid-state amp can produce, and which contribute greatly to the realism of your bass playback.
Regards, |
>Not your everyday average tube intergrated<
Well in fact it is your everyday tube integrated or buyers would have jumped all over it.
Lower the price and somebody will buy it. |
So one guy wants to make a n offer on my JOR. I told him "don't you know what you are buying, , Its Jadis. Not your everyday average tube intergrated". Man Jadis 10+ yrs now, and so few folk know what jadis really is.
We need a Jadis topic.
Paul |
"Best of the both worlds"...
Seems really hard,if not impossible to get.I don't know if i will achieve it,but it is my aim in my forthcoming "ultimate" system.It aimes to be the best system i have seen or heard of this far.
It will also be based on SILVERLINE speakers.Only different model.SINFONIA.
I believe that you know this model because you also own a similar high-end product from the same company.
I don't know about Grande La folia,but Sinfonia is tri-wired.This means i can connect 3 types of amps.
One connection is only for the rear-firing 12" woofer,one for tweeter and 2" midrange,and one for 7" mid and 12" front woofer.So i can play with different amps.
I chose to go with custom-made amps,made by Trlin Audio.I know the constructor personally,he lives in my city,and is very knowledgeable,especially on tube-related subjects.More than 15 years of experience in that field.He recommended 6 320B XLS SET monos,high-end,made with only the best possible parts.I chose to go with 4 of these monos - 2 per speaker.
But i plan to use transistor amplification on rear 12" woofer.I think that bi-polar transistor in AB class will give the best bass.Most precise and tight as you can get.Fastest recovery time after each peak.And i love it that way.Trlin Audio also makes those,but i will limit mine to 18 Watts exactly (same strength as 320B XLS monos).
This is the best i have come up with this far.I plan to close the bass reflex port of the front 12"woofer,to gain a bit more speed and accuracy,for it will be connected to 320B XLS monoblock.
Rear woofer will give the depth,which i personally enjoy very much.I guess this will be fine,if done properly.
I think this will be "the best of the both worlds".But only testing and testing and testing will give the true answer.I will post about the results of these tests,and also about the quality of Trlin Audio's Monos.Can't wait.But I have to wait for 3-5 months for all this to happen,as the apartment for my gear is being built.
Any thoughts or advices?Much welcomed. |
mine does, bass galore, KT90 tube. Also 6550 tube. |
Thanks all for your imput. I learned a bit more!!
The old "fact" that you need big transistor amp to get solid deep bass seems gone.My Silverline speakers seems to love tubes, especially in the low bass!
My McIntosh c220 (tube)/ Ayre V1xe are really good but that "prototype" tube amp (integrated 2x40W)has left me no rest and I have know asked the constructor to build a full finished amp.I report back when it is in my system. |
Perhaps the Ayre V1xe and Krell 450mcx monos just aren't up to the task? Even the Krells' 450 transistor watts may be no match for a 40 Watt tube. Perhaps the Ayre's zero feedback design is a false start without the right kind of harmonics? |
Newbee, have you looked at the Atma-Sphere amps? You're comment:
"I'm still looking for a tube or ss amp which has the best of both designs, that has warm, full, tight low frequencies with natural mids and highs allowing for great detail with no thinning or brightness."
is exactly what I found in the Atma-Sphere MA1's. I was completely stunned by the bass articulation they provided to my Magnepan MG3.6r's, a speaker that most say can NOT be driven by a medium powered tube amp, much less an OTL. It truly was a revelation! The mids were gorgeous and the highs as airy as I've ever heard...really made me appreciate the Maggy ribbon tweeter, something I wasn't fully able to do when they were powered by my Parasound JC1 monoblocks.
Ulf, I do think good tube amps can provide better bass. Six or seven years ago I used Manley Neo Classic 250 tube amps with Avalon Eclipse speakers and I found the bass more natural than with my previous Levinson SS amp.
I spent several years living in Soulard (St. Louis area) and listened to live music at least 4 times per week. The Atma-Sphere's, and to a lesser extent the Manley's driving the Eclipse, provided a much more realistic upright bass. The way an upright bass projects out into the room is not a start/stop affair...it's hard for me to describe it...maybe "expansive". You get the initial transient followed by this ballooning of the fundamental and it's harmonics. Oh heck...my language is horrible...wish I could describe it better.
Good luck!
Jordan |
If your tube amps compliment the impedence characteristics of your speakers, there is no reason that tube amps can't produce the control needed on the woofers. The problems start when the tube amps aren't properly mated to the right speakers and get overdriven, saturate the transformer and generally let the woofers run wild.
Radical phase angles, substantially wild impdence curves and inefficient speakers give tube gear fits. You gotta match this stuff up right. When it's right, it's very right. |
There are several problems that most transistor designs face in order to play bass.
The first is, perhaps a bit counter-intuitively, that they are direct-coupled. Direct coupled amplifiers have response to DC, but when you think about it, the power supplies don't. *They* have response to some very low frequency, perhaps 1/10 cycle/second, but unless run by batteries, not full on DC. Especially at power, the result is that the amplifier can modulate the power supply rails. This results in weakened bass.
A frequency pole in the amplifier (coupling cap for example) that sets the amplifier -3db point *above* the power supply pole will alleviate that problem.
The second issue is negative feedback. Most transistor amplifiers are not very linear without it and so employ a fair amount to work. At low frequencies negative feedback in addition to reducing distortion also seem to compress dynamic impact.
The result: big transistor amps that cannot play bass. Sure, they have 'punch' as the feedback has left them unable to create low frequency definition. So what you will hear in a tube amp that is built right is: Impact, bass definition, and a subtle thing that is always the first to go when things go wrong: bass ambience.
Enjoy!
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"How can a 40wt tube amp give better bass than Krell 450 mono's"
Perhaps its how you define 'bass', perhaps its a personal preference for a 'fuller' sound as opposed to a 'tighter' sound. Perhaps its just plain electrical synergy with your speakers.
I have noticed over the years that in gereral there seems to a correllation between equipment which produces 'tight bass' and produced thinner, more ascerbic mids and highs, which can be described as airy or bright depending on you preferences for one or the other. I've always suspected, apart from plain old synergy, it was due to the way that rise and decay times were treated in the amp - that is the methodology used to get tight bass was as much due to a shortening of the decay time of a signal as anything else and the warmth of tubes was due to a less sharp rise time.
I'm still looking for a tube or ss amp which has the best of both designs, that has warm, full, tight low frequencies with natural mids and highs allowing for great detail with no thinning or brightness. I used to feel like Diogenes til one day the wind blew out the lamp. :-) |
