What I said before I Always test all amp if they are 2 or 3 dimensional. I never thought that Onkyo could give a deep and wide stage. Because I had done many tests with brands like Marantz, NAD, Denon, Cambridge etc and they were all 2-dimensional. It was a little luck to find out that Onkyo can give a deep and wide stage as well. Wenn I compare Onkyo with stuff from clients which are 2 dimensional. They become sometimes quite frustrated because they hear the limitations of there stuff which is more expensive. Everything I use and sell are based on getting the best 3D touchabel image and the best dynamics, speed, resolutionn and most important natural involving sound. Focus is on creating the best sound possible. Wenn people come to mu house they often use the same words; that they never heard a 3-dimensional image this stunning. That it is new for them. That is why I want give demo's outside of europe as well. |
3D has nothing to do with 2 or more channels. Wenn I play 2 or 5 channels I have a lot of depth. And also with 2 and 5.1 I play beside my speakers and far behind. The stunning thing is that I have a 3D image with 2 and with 5 channels. During the show this year I used both 2 channel and 5.1 channel. I had a person with a Pass Labs 2.5 pre amp. He was also amazed that I could blow his pre amp away that easy. People with very expensive highend really f... hate it. But I love it!! Wenn I play stereo I never use more than 2 frontspeakers. Stereo is still the main thing for me. I only use 5.1 for bluray movies and music. Wenn you love music stereo is the most important. And no I would not play this on more speakers than my front speakers ( and my subwoofer) |
Bo1972, will you be attending the CES in Vegas coming January 2014? I would love to hear your set up! |
Bo1972,
I also have a question about the Onkyo receiver you mentioned. When you talk about 3D I always thought you were talking about 2 channel. The Onkyo is a HT receiver. Are you using all the channels or just the front 2? (For music, not movies) |
@ Ibleive, Great post you did 9-24-13, I enjoyed reading it, I agree with your flavor for sound!, Awsome! |
The old 802 was in dynamics with Naim quite good to be unnest. But the stage was too flat. And the Nu-Vista was superior in individual focus and also in resolution compared to the Naim. 802N is these days a far outdated speaker in every way. I modified the way of measuring a lot with Audyssey pro. Not only I measure at total different places and hights. WE also modified the stand for the microphone. This also gives a superior level how it can be measured normally. With the 5509 and Audyssey Pro I blew away many expensive pre amps. People don't understand it, but hear the stunning results. And this is what matters. I can think 3-4 steps further than any other people in this business. I have proven this many times since I do this work at many situations. I used the Behringer in the past as well. We sold it. It is far inferior to the level what I can achieve with Audyssey pro. I blew away my old Pass Labs XP-20 in dynamics, speed, drive, depth, wide, resolution and individual focus of instruments and voices. I hope I will get the option to blow away every set at a show in the US. It is on my list!! |
Yess it is. A few clients came to me. They said: this is the end of a cd player. Why for god sake you would buy a cd player? It is Always nice to hear new things of your beloved recordings. The 384 kHz dac makes the stage wider and deeper. The control and sound realism is stunning. And after 2 weeks it is stil working!!! |
"However, He did say the cheaper cd players and a couple of the cheap pre-amps have hard wired tubes!, mmmmm."
That's incredible. Hard wire tubes? At some point they are going to go bad and will need to be replaced. Makes no sense.
Bo1972,
I enjoyed reading your review of the Olive. I like how you compared it to other products. Its a very 3D review. It is that simple!! |
Tubes are like wine, wenn they are older the musicality is getting better with more emotion!! |
@ Mrtennis, Hi, I called Joe at Audio Advisor, He confirmed your findings!, The tubes in the s7 and higher up the food chain are not hard wired, 1960s tubes would be awsome in that player!, However, He did say the cheaper cd players and a couple of the cheap pre-amps have hard wired tubes!, mmmmm. |
@ Isochronism, Thats some great humor, I got a laugh for today, thanks Brett. |
I think it's really combo dependant cause, for my experience, i listened to a pair of mezzo utopia with Musical fidelity pre and power amp (can't remember the ref but top of the line anyway) with no result at all! The room was also very difficult to manage and we had to move the speakers several times inside the room to get a correct stereo image. Anyway the amps were pretty "MP3" kind of sound, not musical at all.
And you can't drive a B&W 802 with Naim! Not enought current, just watts for easy speakers. The 802 were probably the baddest speaker ever for small electronics with no juice. And even when you find big power amps, the sound still appear narrow.
One of my friend change is 802 for a pair of Usher audio BE-718. Even his child told hime that with the Ushers, it seemed that the players were in the room playing. The guy use McIntosh SS power amp and McIntosh tube pre and CD player.
It seems the new 800 serie is now driveable...
I'm quite surprise with your Onkyo reference? Depth is one thing but music is another matter! Onkyo is so colorfull and dull that even with more depth, i'm still choosing a Naim! (colored as well but fun)
Using an Audissey with Naim rather than Onkyo should give a better result. Using that kind of room correcting device during a show will certainly give a major asset to the system.
During the same audition with the MF and the Utopia, we used a Behringer room correcting device. It improved the overall sound but lost on the way all the music. It was synthetic like plastic!
It's important not to forget that we're listening to music, not just frequencies and spatial positionning.
Like i said, i'd rather choose a engaging sound, livelike and musical more than a perfect dimensional system with no life.
Anyway i appreciate your passion and your dedication to your customer Bo1972. |
There amps are 2-dimensional. At shows there sources are often used with Naim amps. So you get a 2-dimensional image. But it is possible that there sources can give a 3-dimensional image. It is very easy to test. use amps and speakers who can give a deep and wide stage connect the source and you know it. We are not talking about something what is dificult to get. You only need to use amps, sources and speakers which can give depth and wide. It is that simple! |
I am now going to make a business proposal to Geoff. "3D Audiophile Hearing Aids" One is Red and the other is Green :) Will Transfix any system!! |
Bo, I was being facetious regarding the cables. I just searched " Naim CD555 review". The first one I found was by Michael Fremer for Stereophile were he states "Intensely three dimensional" |
We are talking about Naim amps and sources. I do not know the cables of Naim. The only thing what I can say is that I never tested stunning cables from manufacturers who make amps and sources. Some were ok and sometimes good, but never stunning. In 1999 I bought the Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista 300 poweramp. I was at a store were I auditioned the Nautilus 802 with my amp, pre amp and Meridian 500/566 combi. They had the best Naim power,pre and source at that moment. My combi blow away the naim set with ease. I never forget his face. The other day he became Musical Fidelity dealer. The distributer said it to me. I knew why!!! |
So then, just one Naim cord placed anywhere in any system will blow it's whole 3-D imaging? |
What I said earlier; I talked to many Naim owners. Most of them had no experience or knowledge with depth. Wenn instruments and voices play fully loose from a speaker and also in depth, every person understand in a few seconds why it is far superior to any 2-dimensional system. |
These days I even can get a stunning 3-dimensional image out of a Onkyo TX-NR525 of 449 dollar. Also with this amp I can use my way of measuremt to get a lot more dynamic and resolution out of the amp. The fun thing is to give even people who spend less this experience. I can influence the stage of a system by measuring. I use Audysseu and Pro particulary from a highend perspective. For me it is very esasy to outperform any Naim at an audio show. I love use a level which is superior to any system on a show. That why I was the best at a big audio show this year. I am a perfectionist and I Always want to win. It is that simple!! |
I can only agree with the importance of 3D image in Stereo system. The problem is the "subtleties" many amplifier designers choose to offer this result.
Some amplifiers seems more forward because of a bad dynamic control.
Some others offer deep soundstage but poor dynamic.
Naim amps, for example, are quite flat because of their particular dynamic but it's also very "foot taping" kind of amps with an engaging sound. People doesn't care about depth or even notice it because they focus on the fun they get with Naim.
Brand like NVA or Naim are cheaper and give a lot of fun for a small amount of money. All is compromise in Hifi.
I don't know where you can find 3D amp for a small amount of money? I admire your dedication to your customer Bo1972, and if you're able to give the 3D emotional result for the same amount of money, i'll be very interested in the brands you promote?
For me (and i think for many others readers here), the perfect amp combine Micro and macro dynamics, depth and wide soundstage, 3D when you can feel each instruments on the scene, acurate timbre and most of all : EMOTION. I find it with my Music culture combo...for 25000€ (32000$)!
I didn't find many electronics nor cables that fit my requirements of perfection. 3D image, i only here it on High-end (and expensive) products because for me, 3D means the "you are there" kind of feeling, the impression you can turn around the musicians. It's a lot more than depth, a complete new universe. If you can't have the money for that, stay on a fun NVA amp cause it gives this vividness that comes with real music. There is only a few brands capable to give that on the market. There is flaws but, man, so fun and so immediacy!
The last brand that i discovered and surprised me was TSAKIRIDIS Devices. It's a greek company with tube devices. The sound is really engaging and on the neutral side of warm for tube amps. It's really good but not perfect...and cheap.
Perfection doesn't exist in Hifi, at the end, it's just you and the music you love...only your own satisfaction. |
A source is able to break the 3-D image. What I did was using speakers and amps which cab give a deep and wide stage. After this you can test sources how they buid a stage. So you easilly can hear if they are 2 or 3 dimensional. It is quite easy. And yess there are big differences between all the brands. Testing speakers is the same. Use amps which can give a deep stage and compare speakers how they build a stage. Even with cables it is the same. For example; I sold a lot of Nordost for over 9 years of time. So I did hundreds od tests with Nordost cables. So it was easilly to hear and compare with others how they react.The biggest advantage of all these tests is that I can bring in missing properties/talents which should be in a set which are not there. In 10 seconds I know of every system what is there and what is missing. I can even describe the stage and were instruments and voices are standing. I also can hear the sound in those 10 seconds. And how big instruments and voices are projected. And how the low freq. are and if there are any layers within the low freq. And also how much resolution/information there is. Most people who use audio as a hobby often can hear one of two parts of all the parts were you Judge a system for. This is the main reason why often there ssytems miss essential parts which should be there. Tje nice thing about cables is that you can bring in new properties/talents which are not there.That is why I love cables and what you can change in every system. |
I have a 12ax7 and two mullard 6922 picked out. since I will review the unit, I must get permission from the distributor to review the player using NOS tubes.
In my own Vincent cd s6, I am using a tesla 12ax7 and mallard gold pin 6922. |
Bo1972, You feel that the source component alone at the beginning of the signal will either make or break the 3-D image regardless of what follows? I have nice other stuff further down the chain :) |
@ Mrtennis, Hi, Thankyou for looking into the tubes in the vincent for me, Tube Roll! |
Ofcourse you can and you are allowed to be happy :) with your Naim. It still often depends about knowledge. There are enough peolple with sets which are based and focused on sound. ( very important part) I understand why people like Naim. It has a nice sound and is very good in dynamics. Low freq. have a very important and positive influence on our emotion. But in the world of the absolute sound/ highend a 3-dimensional sound sets music to a new and higher level. I had many conversations about this with shopkeepers, musicians and audio manufactures. They all agree about wenn we are talking about the absolute sound. And what you need. I played for a long time with the best speakers B&W makes. But cause of live music, shows and auditions I had to agree that there was an important and essential part to the absolute sound missing. This is depth. Not only depth makes music more stunning. Also a wider stage has a very important influence on this. |
Bo1972, My only Naim product is the CD555/PS555, (I love it) and I'm thinking about their new PS555DR. Very informative thread, guys! |
During the time I visited many people at home I was amazed about the poor level in sound many people have. They spend often a lot of money and they still play at a low level. Often they are not happy with it, and it is clear why!! |
I asked them why you bought it? They said; we loved the sound and didn't know about individual focus and depth. Wenn you give them a demo of 3-dimensional sound they al say the ame thing: this is superior. So again; it is that simple! |
He's right about Naim. People usually buy Naim for some of the other qualities it has, but not for imaging. |
I met people who owned Naim and they did not know what 3-dimensional sound is. After hearing it, they said: next time I would go for a 3-dimensional sound. Wenn people do not know it, they do not know what the difference is. 6 months ago at the show many shopkeepers came to me and asked about the 3-dimensional sound. They were amazed and loved it. For them it was new to hear a sound what was this palpable and the depth and wide of the stage. I want to give many people as possible the same stunning sound at home. I want to sell the highest level of emotion in music possible. |
I auditioned Naim often. With different speakers. To hear if there is depth is quite easy. For example speakers who give a lot of depth as well amps can do...or not. Wenn you play the same recordings on naim almost every instrument is standing on the same line as the voice. At shows I used the same cd's. After hearing with the Naim people they said yess there is no depth with this recording. These days I only sell 3-dimensional sound. I still use 2-dimensional sound to learn people how much less thrilling it is. I never met a person who prefers 2-dimensional sound. Maybe there are people who would prefer it. You never know. And yes you are right about that many cables work like an equalizer. That is why I say: you get less with some cables who equalize too much. I use a-b comparison to learn peole differences in sound. I also use a-b comparison to see what the preference is of a person. |
Hi Everyone!
I've tested several brands of wires and, in my experience, many of them work like an equalizer. I think that's why it's very difficult to give a perfect advice to anyone about a cable cause you have to know perfectly every component of the entire system. Neutral doesn't mean anything cause it'll depend on what you consider neutral. There is no absolute.
For examble, Bo1972 consider Naim as flat and 2D. Based on what exactly? On which speakers? with what kind of player? cables?
I think it's cool to be so confident to think our advices are the ONES, but Hifi is more complex cause it comes with the background of the listener, his feelings, his history and his own way of thinking. It's a cerebral hobby!
To compare it with cars is absurd cause cars is mechanic, no brainer in that hobby!!!
When you want to "feel" in Hifi, that's where belong high-end purpose! And there are just a few brands that give you the emotion, the evidence where you stop thinking and start feeling. I seek those pieces of paradise and if i can find it for less, i'm all ears!!!
So please start writing about your experiences and stop thinking... I like forums to glad informations about experiences, not looking for opinions as steril as the writer... |
I have the cd x7 dac. the tubes are not hard wired |
I will be getting the Vincent cd s7 dac. i'll pop the cover and report back. I will be reviewing the player. |
@ Zd542, Hi,The pics are decieving!, Had me fooled!, I hope you are correct, it seems I am in the market for another player if Paul of usa tubes is seriously going to give me a full refund for my Ayon cd-2s player?, I may have to buy another vincent to have a player now, versus having what I want in the spring, the vincent player I had thus far was the most musical player I have ever heard!, not the clearest with analitical detail that people love these days, just darn right real sounding, way more enjoyable than Ayon digital, 12au7, 12ax7 tubes that are in the vincent versus 6h30 tubes that are in the Ayon, who knows, I suppose I might move forward and look for a Esoteric K-03 used to, what are your impresseions of the K-line Esoteric players? |
"09-20-13: Audiolabyrinth
@ Mrtennis, Hi, Thankyou, looking at the audio visor catalog, they show the tubes with no pins for tube sockets, It clearly shows the tubes with wires coming straight from the bottom of the tubes, It is a pic with the tubes out side of the unit,"
Definitely check with Vincent first, but I'm almost certain you're talking about a tube that hasn't been terminated (terminated may not be the proper word for it). But if its a bunch of solid core wires that come out of the bottom of the tube, they get snipped off. After that they put the plastic housing over the bottom of the raw wires. The housing has the key way and the pins that actually go into the tube socket. I think they are showing you a picture of a tube before its finished being made. |
@Audiolabyrinth: I will ask my technician, I don't know either. |
@ Mrtennis, Hi, Thankyou, looking at the audio visor catalog, they show the tubes with no pins for tube sockets, It clearly shows the tubes with wires coming straight from the bottom of the tubes, It is a pic with the tubes out side of the unit, they have showed this pic many times with the vincent cd-s7 player, I hope you are correct, That would be grand to be able to tube roll the unit my self if I get another vincent player. |
I checked the inside of the cd s7 dac and cd a7 on the Vincent website.
there is no evidence that the tubes are hard wired.
I also called a California dealer, who said the tubes are not hard wired. |
Thanks Bo1972, I did not know that, my problem I have with vincent is, If I am not mistaken, the tubes in the vincent cd-s7 are hard wired!, I have never seen that before, do you believe that could be chanched some where socket tube plug in like most componets out there? |
Often you need to buy better tubes wenn you want to buy a Vincent. Often within one years the sound of there own tubes was not the same anymore as wenn they were new. |
@ Mrtennis, Hi, I agree with your last post,The vincent players uses teac transports, they work fine to me as well!, I may buy another vincent for the second system I will build!, I am going to audition the Esoteric K-03 player in due time, If that sounds fantastic, I will go with that on the main system, If it does not, Its vincent all the way baby!, they are very musical players indeed!, cheers. |
I changed a tube again and depth increased.
besides the digital source, the pre amp, amp and speakers also determine the soundstage,
while a cable may have tendencies, they can be counteracted by other changes in your stereo system. |
i should also add, i used the vincent as a transport to the ps audio perfect wave dac (the original). there was no forwardness with that combo, either.
the vincent makes an excellent transport. |
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Try the Stage III Zyklops PC , awesome and it's big brother Kraken is supposed to be even better !!! |
@ Mrtennis, Hi, I love the sound of Vincent cd-players!, what model do you have?, My exsperience with vincent digital is they have one of the best soundstage presatations I have ever heard in my life!, Depth with the Vincent cd-s7 player I had was extrodinary!, If you do not have that, then the High -fidelity cables you have offer more of a forward, up-front presatation, live music does not sound like that period, with Taralabs cables that I do own, the presatation is mid-hall, in the middle of my listening room,so spooky sounding, like you are there at the actual musical event,, that in my opinion, sounds more realistic and natural!, That is why I agreed with Jmcgrogan2. |
if you read my review I do not mention a lack of depth.
I heard solo instruments in the background, relative to the foreground ensembles.
while I would admit that they bring the listener to the music, it is not at the expense of depth.
other cables may present more like a mid to rear hall perspective. sometimes, a recessed treble can create the sensation of depth.
I was listening to a recording of the Brandenburg concerti, and replaced one tube in my Vincent cd player, and observed greater depth from a harpsichord solo.
in conclusion, it is possible to create greater depth, by changing tubes and/or other components in a stereo system. |
@ Jmcgrogan2,wow!,, somtimes when you post, Its like taking words right out of my mouth!, you know I love the same realistic presatation as you do!, well done my friend, I also agree, I am willing to give the High fidelity cables a spinn, they would have extreme competition to persuade me from Taralabs!, I cannot waite untill the NEW TOP FLAG SHIP Taralabs cables come out, cheers john. |
Mrtennis, Very nicely done review. Thank you |
