Cable Costs Relative to System

Digital cables,I compared a kimber digital cable costing in the UK.£570 with a cable from bluejeans costing $40 (£20) I connected both up to a levinson dac with two inputs so I could do a/b tests there was not the slightest difference in them,only the price.Cables are an absolute rip off.

Well, here is my two cents worth on cables. I just bought a Rega Jupiter/IO DAC on this site. The Rega supplied digital cable was replaced due to a reviewers recommendation for this combination. I bought an $11 silver digital cable from a guy on ebay because I too was a skeptic about throwing $500 at a cable. I can say that this $11 silver cable made a TON of difference in the sound of this Rega CDP. It opened up the soundstage and turned the muddy midrange into a delight. No longer a cable skeptic.

My next question has to do with a different digital cable. I'm tempted to buy a used Kimber D60 or Nordost Silver Shadow to see if there is an audible difference to this no name cable that cost $11. I'm also curious what difference a power cord will make for the amp. I'll let you know.

My curiosity concerning power cords goes to how your house is wired. Most residential homes are wired with 14 gauge copper. Hmmmmm..... what then is the meaning of a fancy 6' silver cable attached to an 80' run of copper.

My system is low to mid-fi. Everything was bought here on Audiogon. Jolida JD801A(J&J KT88/6SN7EH/Sovtek 12AX7LPS), Rega Jupiter/IO DAC, Vienna Acoustic Bach's, and a Velodyne CT80 sub. Silver 12ga. 50' speaker cables (ebay), Straightwire Encore Interconnect(ebay), and $11 digital cable(ebay). Nothing great but a nice sounding system for $ 2,261. New this system would have been around $5,000.

My thought is this. Buy decent but not the best. I hear more of a difference in the CD's that I buy and the engineering that was done there than I will ever hear in a decent versus ultra-expensive interconnect or power cable.

My system is in excess of $100,000 and the interconnects that I now use all Belden 1800f balanced. I have these as bi amp cables and use them on such components as M Levinson preamps 326s and amps 2 dual mono cd/sacd player Esoteric and thats just the audio side.I did use high priced cables but found when I wanted to change the type of termination on my cables that I could buy these Belden cables at a fraction of the price,so I purchsed the cables required and listened to the music there was no difference in sound at all.All those years I had been throwing my money away.Spend on components its those that make the difference not the cables.
Anyone interested look up prices on bluejeanscables.com you will be in for a suprise

not to dredge this back from the dead, but geoffgarcia, i was actually debating the same a few months back, at the time i had a very minimal system (integrated reciever + dvd/cd player, so a single digi-coax and some speaker wire was all i needed). i quickly dumped a good 7-8k into my system in a matter of months, scary thing is, everything seems to have "fit" a ratio of 50-55% electronics, 30-35% speakers and 10-15% cables with 5-10% left over for supports etc (speaker stands, av rack, etc). now - the thing is, i did NOT spend all of that at once, and it went in this order: speakers, then electronics, then cables. in fact, i would bet that your system from a price standpoint is about where mine is now minus the cables.

here's what i'd do:

skip out on buying ANY power cables (for now). or at least, dont spend more than 50-150 on any, and only to power your amp, and a line conditioner. buy a nice panamax or similar (ie somethingin the $4-500+ range) and plug everything but your amp into that. that in my opinion is better by FAR than spending $150x3 for pre/transport/dac power cables etc. get a good cable for that, or at least take and put an RF-blocker (at the component IEC end) on the stocker. get two hospital grade (aprox $10-15 worst case) outlets and put your amp and sub if you have one onto one, and everything else on another. then invest in the absolute best COPPER you can afford (something like audioquest's PSC+ level of product ie coral / king cobra would be a good balance of price/sound for your price range). the ones to obviously pay the most attention to is pre->amp and dac (or player) -> amp. don't do something crazly like a $400 cable pre->amp and $40 cd-player to pre... it's all about balance.

about the last thing to choose / upgrade is speaker cable. now, that might sound CRAZY because let me tell you, upgradeing mine (and i still have lots of room for improvement there i'd say) was the biggest improvement i've ever made save changing speakers -- however hear me out. all of the other things going on in your system make drastic changes to the character of stuff as well, so you don't want to say choose cables that are so revealing that a certain interconnect and speaker wire combo seems waaaaaay too bright or lean or whatever. i'd certainly go with the 10-20% rule and spend maybe half to two-thirds of that on interconncets and the rest on speaker cables (throwing in power cables later except again maybe the one to the conditioner).

hope my recent experiences helps lend a hand, btw to give you an idea of what i consider balanced:

(the 2ch portion of my rig)
B&W CDM1-NT bi-amplified from a Rotel RB-985 using 2 runs aq CV4
Rotel RDV-1060
comparing 1060 built in vs. Cal Audio Labs Sigma vs. CI Audio VDA-1
running aq king-cobra from whichever DAC to Rotel RSX-965
(using it as a pre and to power rears)
running 2 runs of aq coral from the 965 pre-outs to 4ch total on the 985
when using the outboard dac, aq optilink 1 or vdm-1 (toslink vs coax)

it's nothing incredible but i'm absolutely thrilled about it (upgraded from an old marantz dvd player, the 965 as an integrated amp and a pair of b&w 602 speaks). i know on here so many people seem to piss on b&w and it's main-stream-ness and yeah, i've heard a lot of stuff i like besides theirs (lets just say, my next speaker will likely be totem forests) but hey, sometimes the price is right :)

http://home.earthlink.net/~rogerr7/wire.htm

all,
my system is meager compared to what you all seem to have.
The retail value of my system is about 7k

(Tyler Ref Monitors, Rogue magnum 66/88, Cal CL15)

my cables are currently all stock/(with the exception of speaker wire which is
signalcable)

I've been contemplating upgrading my cabling/interconnects
especially after reading this post.
15% would be 900/450 (retail/used)
10% would be 600/300

should I take the leap and toss 300ish on cabling for my system or would that be
money better spend in upgrading other components? (My system uses 2
interconnects, 3 power cords, and figure speaker cable is already taken care of
with the signalcable gear)

any brands in this price range? or recommendations?
geoffgarcia@hotmail.com

You have awsome power cables. There are steals and rip offs in high end just like anything else. You should not exceed 20% of the cost of the system in cablles because there are some $1000 cables out there that are better than $4000 cables. The best cables I have ever heard are the new Essence cables. Essence is the company that actually builds your power cables and line conditioner under a different name. FMS is also real good but hard to find.

If you're worried about system matching, spending thousands for cables that may or may not result in a synergy with your components, spend fifty bucks of the Analgue II IC's and start your search form there, you may find that these excellent cables will match more expensive wire right up the scale. To a point of course. But what an interesting sonic journey! If you find something that works better, turn the Analogue II's in for a full refund.

Hi,,, wow its amazing cause i'm just about exactly at the same price point for the system cost and cable cost as you are. I was quickly adding it all up and stopped at 60k system cost and over 10k on cable cost. Actual cost are about exactly as yours give or take a mere bag of shells. I did the cable thang myself and ended up using Kimbers Select line of cables cause although it was much more expensive than most other common cables it became very obvious to me that my system REQUIRED cable like the top model Kimber Select. I found that I did get what I paid for and the cable turned out to be an absolute must. It made me realize just how much of a weak link the cable becomes in a well matched high quality system that is fully capable of passing a very strong clean extended accurate signal. I found the expensive Kimber Select to pass a very clean efficient signal from component to component with far less signal degradation than all other cable tried. It was shocking just how much of an improvement the cable made. yes i do believe that cable cost is relative to system cost. I would not use the best cable with a mid level system. I also believe in the REAL Industry Leaders who produce cable like Kimber, Siltech, AN Kondo San, Nirvana etc who produce their own wire in house with real technology over most small cable makers who buy spools of commerially made wire from large wire manufacturing plants and repackage the wire and make wild claims. The cables job is to pass an un altered signal, do nothing, and the higher quality and more capable the components are the cleaner and cleaner the cable must be to un alter the best signal the component is capable of sending. I also believe in NOT USING 1 WEAK LINK. No matter how good the components and cables are using just 1 weak link in the chain will only get you the best that the weak link is capable of. NO cable will perform any magical tricks. A good cable does nothing but pass the most efficient un altered signal. From there your using a form of tone control which could yield a positive or negitive result. Start with the best room and use the best well matched components and best matched cables that your budget can afford. NO weak links. The results can be sonic bliss. I also find that all being equal the TUBE yields a more natural musical sound and the old tubes sound better than new tubes in most cases. Its not really as complicated as we make it out to be if done right and you follow the rules. Knowledge is the key.

Sean, my comments were not directed at you. Sorry, if I bruised toes.

You are right, I do feel strongly cable cost effectiveness ratios are way out of line. I did mention, though, specialty cables may indeed calm grunge.

I don't try to cypher the production of every disc. I just judge them against what I have heard live.

The reason I throw water on cable sermons from time to time, is that there are newbies that frequent this forum.

Going solely on gee whiz testimony they read here, they are all too ready to shell out rolls of green for pretty cables, when they should be rolling out that Onkyo cdp.

Muralman: There is NO way for anyone to know exactly what is on the disc or what it the "most correct" interpretation of what one can hear. That is, unless they were involved in the recording / mastering process of each and every recording that they listen to. That is why "personal preference" is mentioned around here so much.

Besides, it is quite possible that what one thinks sounds "transparent" could actually be shown to be "less accurate" if one took the time to actually take measurements within the system itself and compare various cables and how the system responds to them electrically. While most folks would never think about doing such things, it can be pretty interesting to say the least. The results are not always what one might be led to think they would be.

As far as your comment regarding what an "expert" has to say, the person that i referrenced is not in the "cable game" and is "anti-fancy cabling". Your comment also goes to show that you will believe and act upon your beliefs regardless of what is presented to you. That implies that you have your "personal preferences" and that is all that you are concerned with. That's fine, so long as you don't try to empirically state that your personal preferences are the only point of reference for accuracy or how things should be done when building a system.

If you think that i present information in that manner, think again. I'm simply throwing out my comments based on past experience and the knowledge that i've acquired over the years. If someone else would like to compare contrasting notes, i'm all for it. On top of that, i've always encouraged people to buy what they like, regardless of what someone else has to say. There are plenty of products out there that i don't like, but if it works for you in your system, who am i to tell you that you shouldn't be happy with what you have ? I might not like it and might have had bad experiences with it, but then again, i don't have to listen to it either : ) Sean
>

It was said once one upgrades their system sufficiently, they will more readily discern cable differences.

My system stands shoulder to shoulder with the most transparent systems.

I have tried a number of cables based on widely differing design premises. All "fancy" cables did nothing but retard various wavelengths. That may be a benefit to systems that handle like frequencies badly. My system does not have wounds needing salve.

Like Homedesign, I just want what the disc has to offer. Short, relatively pure metal cables do best for my system. I really don't care what one or another cable expert has to say.

NEAR?????? Apex, you need to get out more.

Home Design
I have owned Magnepan and auditioned quite a few Planar and Electrostatic designs before buying them. After that I heard NEARs which to this day are reference speakers and also for alot of other folks. I now own a few sets and I really cannot think of another speaker I could want.

Many factors go into a persons decision in buying speakers. Foremost in my mind is the room they will be using.

I cannot see how any one speaker will ever be as great as what you are saying . It is to much of a personal decision according to to many various factors that nedd to be considered.

Although they may great speakers.Hope they give you many years of happy playback.

Homedesign: It is too bad that you didn't apply as much logic or research as you did passion to your post.

Not all components are load stable, nor do all cables present the same feedpoint impedance, even when terminated with identical electrical characteristics from identical components. As such, cable changes can and are component / system dependent. On top of that, some of these differences can both be audible and measurable.

If you doubt this, try talking to Frank Van Alstine* about this subject. Frank is both a designer / manufacturer and one of the most out-spoken individuals in audio when it comes to cables and "snake oil". Ask him if components from various manufacturers all respond identically to cable changes. I'm talking about cable changes that result in variations in the feedpoint & load impedances that they see. Since i already know his answer and the truth about the subject at hand, i'll be waiting for your enlightened response once you delve further into the subject and re-educate yourself. Sean
>

PS... Since you seem to be a fan of his, try emailing Siegfried Linkwitz and see what he has to say about the subject. If he's ever done any REAL testing on the subject with a variety of components from various manufacturers, he'll share the same thoughts on the subject that Mr Van Alstine and i do. That is, cables should NOT affect system performance but most circuits aren't designed / built well enough to achieve this goal. Therefore, their performance is altered to one degree or another when cables are changed.

* I know that Frank knows all about this, as he took the time to educate Julian Hirsch about the subject.

Amen to Muralman1.
Dipole speakers are the path to audio Nirvana. To reslove the shortcomings (rigid setup, and poor bass integration) of electrostatics, check out open baffle dipole systems. www.linkwitzlabs.com The last speakers you will ever buy. Ask anyone who has them.

The notion of cables being 'system dependant' is utter nonsense. As with all other components, its about distortion, or the lack of it. But the 'connoisseurs of coloration', like too many engineers and their million dolloar mixing toy, treat their system like it were a musical instrument, contributing to the music the artists made in the hall or studio.

The more components you can put together with the least amount of distortion the closer you get to 'true to the original. At least in playing back whatever made it onto the source media.

Then all you can do is buy and sell disks to collect those worthy of the capability of system to play back what is true.

Of course when your system is a personal perference of distortions to taste, you probably cannot discern a good disk from a bad one. But when it is relatively distortion free, inclusive of the room acoustics, you definately can.

Until then, there is a proven list of reference quality CD's at www.linkwitzlabs.com at the MUSIC link. While you are there check out some of the other links on theory, and practicle application of audio. I guarantee it will be worth your time.

I really do not think you should equate cost to performance in audio. I see $4000 amps not worth $400 and $400 amps that are worthy of alot more than they are offerd at.

Cables are system dependant. While it is true that you can get good stuff that is highly priced it is also true you can get good stuff at a lower price also that fits your system and hearing personality enough to be well satisfied.

If you have ever heard an expensive setup that sounded like junk you know what I mean.

I might not have a SOTA system ,but I do believe I have a musical system.

BTW I would own Apogees or Maggies ,Infact I did ,but I had to sell them because of room. The speakers I have now I feel are just as transparent with good dinamics as the Maggies I owned.

They make me happy!

I would not be surprised. there are manufacturers who do all kinds of foolish things to cables, and there are customers to match.

I will put my system up against any system to see which is more resoving. Any body who has ever heard the well set up Apogee Scintilla would know this.

If you were to have a very resolving system, you'd find out cable science is fool's gold.

Save yourselves some time, energy and Hassle. Start with the Signal Cable Analogue II IC's and maybe try the new Stu Weinstein design for around fifty bucks. Just start there to have a basis of comparision. You may be very surprised

Audioengr has summarized the subject--almost. There are rather inexpensive components that are stellar performers. For example, I recently purchased Channel Islands passive preamplifier. Give it a shot. Dusty's goal is to have a $6K system rival $30K ones. I'm on the bandwagon!

It's a system thing. Like one of the other posters said, they are not "accessories", they are an integral part of the "system". If you get chincy on a CDP, you will probably end-up spending more than you would like to "tone-control" out the harshness. If you buy inexpensive components, then expensive cables will probably not help the system much. However, if you spend the big bux to get components that are very extended and resolving, expensive cables will take it to a new level. You will never get the performance out of the components without spending some money on cables. You will always be limiting their performance.

Don't blame me, I really enjoy in changing cables. My current allocation is 30% to equipment, 45% to cables, 20% to rack & stands, and 5% to tips and spikes. So, it is time to upgrade my gears and I've almost squeezed the last drop from the existing setup.

After hearing Transparent Cables I see why those with alot of $$ pay for the exotics!
While those at the lower end of the Tax paying spectrum must hope to find the most cost effective solution.For myself it was getting a 47Labs OTA Cable Kit which could fill in for my internal speaker wire and wire most of the rest of my system. I think it come to about $500 in cables I spent total with the whole system going for $10K New.

As for percentage that it made up I guess it would be 5%. I think now it comes down to getting better with diminishing returns.

I don't care what one calls distortion, it is all unacceptable. That is, if you can hear it.

It will sound like bragging, but like I have said it before, my hearing measures way beyond normal hearing. I hate distortion of any sort. If it is there, I will pick it up.

I use short, pure copper cables and interconnects.

I don't trust proactive cables. Once, I was sharing a Pass Labs X150 with a friend. He plugged it into his system as is. I agreed it sounded terrible. Then, I asked him to switch out his MIT cables with some Cardas he had on hand. Immediately, there was a great improvement.

With my straight forward cables, the Pass amp performed brilliantly.

My speakers are among the most revealing speakers ever divised. My pass amps have the purest circuitry of all high power amps.

My front ends are to my liking, and that is all they need to be.

Some people need the latest and greatest tweak, be it cable science, isolation devices, or conditioners. If they are using frequency mashing cables, I can see why. I would sense something wrong too.

If you accept that Malcolm Hawksford's definitive work The Essex Echo manages to hit the nail on the head (and few have argued with it) then one of the key issues (there are definitely others) with cables is so-called 'skin effect'. While there are various strategies to deal with skin effect, the problem has probably not been eliminated in any real world design (yet).

Skin effect causes phase distortions. It seems to be accepted that while some people are very bothered by phase distortions, others are not. That may mean the latter have tin ears, but alternatively it may mean that those that are not bothered by phase distortions simply have superior brains that are capable of adjusting these phase distortions out of what they are hearing (since that is one of the functions of how the ear and brain interact).

Whatever. My point is that some people may hear little difference between cables, while others may hear significant differences, based on their sensitivities to phase distortions.

Russellrcncom, I agree with you. The only problem with all of these testimonials is that they all have to be believed by faith. We hear over and over how much better people's systems sound with inclusion of cable brand X.

My disbelief stems from me being confident that I have maximized my listening pleasures without reliance on cable swapping.

Let me chime in my two bits, for what's it worth. I agree with Trelja's sentiments but I feel he doesn't go far enough. I recently purchased a pair of HG Silver Lace IC's (beloved by Gonphiles and 47 reviewers on Audioreview) and they sound fine. The problem is that so did my cheap Audio Advisor house brand IC's which are 10 years old.

I noticed no difference in my system with the HG's. If you think my system is not revealing enough, guess again: my speakers are Hales T8's with CJ and Threshold front end.

I do not doubt that there are some of you that hear concrete, definable differences in cables. However, there IS a lot of smoke and mirrors with cables and purchase of ANY cable is frought with pitfalls. I really wonder what percentage of cable 'benefit' falls into the pycho-acoustic realm. As the adage goes, buyer beware.

I believe the cable cost shouldn't be more than 15% of your total system cost. I've done many comparisons over the past 3 years ( over 2 dozen cables.) and only found less than 5 cable makers that made my "acceptable" list regardless of the price. Even from these companies, only certain model and above made the list. I even tried DIY interconnects but just doesn't sound as good as the ones made by professionals.
It is really up to the listener to figure out if it is worth the extra 100% to 300% to get that extra 5 to 15% improvement. Most importantly is system matching.

Here is my favorite cable manufature list:

Audio Note AN-Vx and AN-Vz
Stealth Audio Cable M-21 special
NBS King Serpent and higher
Nordost SPM and higher

I tried to get cable for $500 as my cap. I would pay a little bit more if there is enough improvement to my system.

Everybody's sytem is different and everyone has a bias (and some need it adjusted ..Ha Ha!)! I've owned the $18K rigs and the $1k rigs...depending on the synergy between components, you may wind up with a mix of on the cheap stuff and expensive! Ideally, cable should allow your components(if up to the challenge)to convey the full color of the recording in your home...unalterd!! My preference is Harmonic Tech or Acoustic Zen (someone on this site turned me on to AZ). These cables simply let the music flow with any gear...the full richness and tonal purity of the recording is allowed to fill the room...goosebumps are common!!

As a response to Meta's question: "Is there anybody using
$50k audio system. If yes, please
let us in on the magic."

Well, my system is only $40K, and my wire is anything but
"magic," but since no one else has answered:

Wadia 860 CDP
Panasonic SV-3700 DAT
Fanfare FT-1A tuner
Audio Research LS-5mkII preamp
(2) Audio Research D-400mkII amps
Kinetic Audio Labyrinth speakers

All ICs/cables are DIY:

Canare L-4E6S balanced ICs with Neutrik gold-tip XLRs for
sources/preamp/amps. Parts cost: $10 per 6ft pair. Total
system cost: $50.

Canare DA-206 AES/EBU digital ICs between CDP/DAT. Parts
cost: $15 per 6ft pair. Total system cost: $15.

Canare 4S11 speaker cables. Total parts cost: $15 per 10ft
pair. Total system cost: $30.

No "upgraded" power cords or power conditioners.

Total "wire" cost for system: $95 or 0.2% of component cost.

As I mentioned in another thread, I used to swap out cables
a bunch in my previous system (XLO 3 was the last brand
name) before my system became fully balanced and I started
rolling my own ICs/cables.

Now I'm not going to tell you that these are the best ICs
and/or cables, etc. I will tell you that in my system I
have never bettered the resolution I achieve with my current
Canare ICs/cables. That includes other DIYs and brand names.

Maybe it's because they're DIY? Maybe it's because balanced
systems are less sensitive to cable differences? I don't
profess to know the answer, only that it has allowed me to
get off the IC/cable merry-go-round without looking back
once.

But, the more important question: system investment vs.
music investment. With approx. 1700 CDs my total music cost
is somewhere near $20K (assume $12/cd) or 50% of my system
cost.

Right now (and for the past few years) my main focus is
increasing the music cost beyond the system cost.

Why should it matter how much you spend on cables, as long as it sounds good in YOUR system?? I was looking at some new Purist Audio Cables. The new Musaeus 10ft bi-wire sells for about $550 and sounds better than the older Purist Colossus (about $1700) But according to your post here maybe I should spend for the inferior Colossus because the price is closer to my system value. Foolish...I will spend 550 and get a better cable.
Why does it always have to be about cost......What about sound, thats what I am going for!

just a few thoughts,if you are wanting to stop the noise look into acme true power conditoners and i am not sure what the gfci will acheive in that application

Let me have my 15 minutes of fame. We live in a less than perfect world. The only thing constant is change. Mistakes have been made & theor dis proven but what we hear and see can not be totally relied upon as TRUTH. Conserning the powercable. The device is only an extention of the power company that energy is transfered from and thru many substations & routes before it enters your home and finds it`s way into your system. No matter how refined the the electronic instrument is it shares the same energy matter that is common to all. We can not improve upon this at the present time unless we generate our own power which is possible if we have the cost effective means and the dollars to spend. Perhaps this has been tried. I don`t know. Any one who reads this and has ventured into or has knowledge of the same please advise. It would be interesting reading. As for the POWER CABLE QUESTION ??? After reading some of the threads I thought., HEY ICAN DO THIS MYSELF. Considering that all of the electrical service into my home was generic and copper ROMEX was behind the wall why not just extend the ROMEX as close to the system as possible and this would solve the whole problem. BUT being the finiky person that I am this was my answere to my own question to the neverending quest for perfection in Audiophileland. FIRST. A dedicated line was installed from the breaker/fuse box useing generic 12/2WG ROMEX. Making sure that the connection(s) in the box were clean and positive. Chemicals used to clean the wire was NoOx and De Oxit. The romex was routed as far as possible from all other wire to isolate it. The romex was threaded thru 1/2" copper household plumbing water pipe. In line prior to the wall receptical I obtained a DU-3 isolation transformer. I then installed a steel duplex receptical outlet box and used a 20 amp GFI dupex recepical. SECONDLY: I purchased a 5/8" copper shielded steel ground rod and hammered it into the ground. Next, I installed a ground wire to it and connected the ground wire to the copper pipe outside shielding to bleed off and RFI / EMI. THIRDLY; I made the connections in the receptical box makeing sure all connections were clean and with the use of DeOxit to perserve the same. NEXT. To extend the power from the receptical I used 12/3WG ROMEX and threaded it thru a lenght of FLEXIBLE CONDUIT. This was tricky but paste floor wax on the Romex helped. After the ends were cut & making sure I had enough wire to work with., I installed HUBBLE HOSPITAL GRADE connections on the respective ends The THIRD WIRE within the BX cabel was stripped on lthe end and bent back to make contact with the BX conduit. Thid served as a dielectric to reject RFI/EMI. My first instrment to plug into the service was MONSTER CABLES HTS-2500 MkII. All other components & instruments were pluged/connected into the system. Upon turning the system on the improvement was to my satisfact -ion and the noise was lowered much more than it had been before. Let me tell you this: It is so quiet that you can hear a mouse pee on cotton!!. SUMMING EVERYTHING UP. I would like to share this with you. You ask God to let you see straight and write strait. "A critic can neither see straight or write straight until he comes to terms with who he is, until he faces== indeed, embraces==the realization that what he knows, how he came to know it, and how his mind deals with the knowledge and how he presents it to others are all inescapeably individual, unique, and "SUBJECTIVE" that any other approach to his duties is mere dissembling". This is just food for your thoughts when reading others opinions and reviews and one must in his oun mind when evaluating the same -"Consider The Source" Thanks for your valuable time

The most perfect power cable is only as good as the romex in the wall!. I am sitting in front of my system right now (listening to a GREAt Oscar Peterson CD, I might add), contemplating a fancy power cord. My System is mid to lower cost for this hobby, with about $4400 retail invested with (2) sets of AQ Diamond XLR interconnects and AQ Caldera Bi-wre. (All bought used, total outlay about $1400). My Martin Logans seem to easily reveal the difference between these cables and the MIT stuff I started out with, so I do believe cable makes a significant difference.

I Also have some hospital grade Hubell receptacles. BUT: comming into the receptacles is a dedicated line I ran myself. It is a 60 foot run of 12 gauge Romex, bought at Home Depot. It connects through a Square D Breaker. The breaker is mounted to a plated copper bar in the breaker box, which then runs to the service. It Goes through the utilities meter.

So, If I buy a perfect power cord, the best it can do is take the power the 3 feet from the wall receptacle and deliver it to the amp.

Now, My classe 301 came with a fairly decent ICc cord, as did my Audio Research LS 16. I Think both of these cords are way better than the wire in the walls, and they sure seem like they would have less loss than my breaker box.

It seems like my cables should not be the limiting factor in my power system, so, I don't see why I would want to spend money to "improve" them.

Actually, the best money I spent yet on my system was the Tube Traps and other room tuning. I think, dollar for dollar, the biggest improvements can be had with room treatment.

Just my 2 cents. I will duck now in anticipation of the flames to follow;)

The Jerry Springer Show would be a great place to hold this discussion. We could also take a few people who have disputes, too and bring some big 16 oz boxing gloves to have matters settled...in public! Of course, we would have pretty *mamis* in bikinis walking w/ signs between rounds...

If you guys knew what I'm using for speaker wire and how little I paid for it you'd flip. And it has specifications! Silver plated copper, 12 ga, 37 strands, twisted, Teflon insulated pairs & dipped in Teflon. Awesome performance for a mere $16.25 per 25 ft. The real deal.

Juicebox, buy whatever turns you on. Don't go into debt doing it, though, it's clear you are already suffering from cable madness.

Cables are not an extra accesory you add later when you can afford them. If you don't buy some when you buy your equipment, you'll either be hooking your system up with unshielded "antennas" or, with the better brands who don't give you any, not hooking it up at all. People who make cable purchases out to be something cost concious people should opt out of are missing the point.
That the "better components" found in one poster's system "need less tweaking" is a blatently erroneous statement. The cables are for THE SOUND, not the component. It may be crazy to put a $5000 CD Player with a $300 amp, but at least the amp will be showing what it can do and not being held back.
As far as "active vs. passive" what exactly is the big difference? Any component can only make things worse. If a $75,000 system "deserves" $7500 to $15,000, but you get the cables that seem to get everything right for less, or more, that's fine. As far as the ratio, it was probably only invented to prepare customers at the beginning of a sale for the extra expense involved that they never count on.
To put it another way, how stressed out would you be getting about putting 55% of your money into the front end, or 35% on speakers if that was the Magic Ratio? It should really be more random than that I think, although an awful lot of people had 10% to 20%.
BTW, I realize this thread is dead, but people will still come across it, and I wanted to make My Humble Opinion heard.
...or not so humble...

I'm with Cornfed, Ckuipers, and other experienced audio enthusiasts who know value when they hear it. I don't know how many systems I have listened to that were terrible but had "great cables." _Kid, I looked at your system pic, great room! Good amp, OK speakers, bright and shallow front end. Get my drift? There are areas due for major improvement. With the money you spent on the power chord alone, you could have bought devastating speakers and a much more pleasing front end. The time to start putting big money into cable rolling is after you've maximized playback of your favorite music styles by choosing speakers, amp and front end wisely. I just had a good fellow who has a system much like yours, only he went all the way to the breaker box with super wire. Our two systems are similarly priced. Instantly, he knew there was a whole new level of listening satisfaction, much higher than he had ever dreamed of.

I am guilty in this thread but I will say this once again, "a cables performance is system centric". Some cables sound better in different set ups. I recently auditioned about everything under the sun in my 2 channel system and settled on AudioQuest Anaconda for my interconnects and AudioQuest Volcano for my speaker wires. I also am a huge believer in the Shunyata Power Cords as I have witnessed a huge difference in sonic performance. (in my system) Anyway, my system is in the $12K range and I have about $4K on top of that in cables. Not too nuts but still a decent investment. Crazy, but that's how it goes..

KiD

We are lucky to have a few new companies popping up that offer outstanding cables, both signal and ac, at fair prices. Yes, we all lust after Valhalla and G5, but it's possible to come close, real close, without the second mortgage type of expenditure. With this in mind, I believe no more than 10% of system value is about right for cable investment. I have heard cables make the difference between good sound and outstanding sound, so I think them very important, but I do feel many cables are ridiculously priced. My system value at retail prices is about 60K. My cable investment including powercords comes in at just under 5K. Sonically, IMO, sound quality is exceptional.

People who are willing and able to assemble audio systems worth five digits can spend whatever they want on wires. What always worries me is that there's some young guy lurking out there who reads that he should be devoting 20% of his budget to wire, and his budget is only $1500. Nobody like that should be spending $300 on wire. $30 is more like it.

The best "budget" cable I have heard is Transparent Reference XL.

I admit that the hyperexpensive cable can make a positive difference in certain situations. But, I want to stand up and say that to think these products are better in the vast majority of circumstances is asinine. To think so is to admit that to have bought in to the hype. The hype is the reason that the "free market" does not weed out these companies. And to look at things objectively, it is not only the sole reason for not only their existence, but the fact that these companies have flourished. Now becoming firmly entrenched. In fact, the business is so plentiful and lucrative, new cable companies crop up at an incredible rate. There is no good explanation for the cost of most of these products, with the exception of things like greed. I used to be a chemist, developing thick film materials for the high tech electronics industry(conductors, resistors, dielectrics, conformal coatings, etc.). Some of the companies we sold to are in the highest echelon of high end audio. We won awards every day from companies with household names that used our products to make their products successful. The price structure for Product A(a low cost silver-palladium based resistor line - 0.1/1.0/10.0 Ohm)was that Asian companies bought it for $0.40/gram, American/European companies were charged $4.00/gram, and the US government/military/US companies(yes, the same who bought it for commercial usage)using it in military applications paid $40.00/gram. Of course, each carried a different product number, complete with different product literature/specs. But, the material was all culled from the same production lots. The whole thing was obscene. The government knew, and didn't care. They thought it was funny, even. As a US taxpayer, you best believe I let them know about it. They laughed it off; as if I was telling them the sky was blue. The fact is that companies charge the going rate. Selling for less often loses you orders. Buyers often feel your product is inadequate. I would love to hear a good explanation regarding the electrical/material science/R&D/manufacturing reasons of why a copper interconnect would retail for over $500. And as Arthur Salvatore notes on his website, these cable companies do not even manufacture their products. They buy them for cents on the hundreds of dollars, and pass the product along to us. While I do not pretend that my sub $500 cable list will beat every cable, in every system, in every circumstance, for every audiophile, I submit that this list will compete with ANYTHING sold in this industry. This list should not be thought of as containing great budget alternatives to the great cables, but GREAT CABLES on their own merit. Equal to their more expensive brethren. My list today(products I have heard - I do hope others chime in with their nominations) includes AudioQuest's old line(I saw 1m Lapis go for $112.50 here on auction Wednesday night), Analysis Plus, Coincident, Goertz, HomeGrown Audio, Kimber Select(copper) and the KimberKable line, Musical Fidelity's Nu Vista line, Red Rose Music, and Silver Audio. And no my system does not retail for $50K. But I would also assert that I can build a $5K system(mine does cost much more than that) that is more satisfying than many a $50K system. That statement in itself will also raise the indignation of many.

My experience is that a specific cable MIGHT work like magic between a DAC and preamp but fail miserably between the preamp and power amp. Since most people don't experiment with what cables they have and where they work best in the system, much of this goes unnoticed or is passed over even by many folks that consider themselves to be "audiophiles". The same goes for people that use all of the same type of cable throughout the entire system. From this post you can obviously tell that i DO believe that it is appropriate to "mix and match" different cables and cables from different manufacturers to achieve the best sonics possible. I know this point of view breaks a lot of people's rules, but it is what i have found to work best. Having said that, i look back to the article on Salvatore's site about speaker cable. He highly praised both Goertz and Coincident as being some of the best available. As most of you know, those two cable brands are quite "reasonable" compared to many others on the market. While i've "praised" Goertz both here and at AA, i've never tried the Coincident. Between his "ranting" and the others here that have spoken highly of it, i think that i will give some of them a try. The only thing that i find "goofy" about the Coincident's is that they "claim" to need TONS of time to "break in". Even though i do own two different "cable burners", i still have a hard time with claims like that. Sean
>

I agree with you Garfish. You need competent wire and competent wire does not come cheap - just like the tyres on your Ferrari. Somewhere between 10% and 20% is sensible in my experience, including PCs. Most of the issue is finding the cable that works with your components.

I just did some quick calculations that showed I had about 14% of my 35K system in "wires". I believe in good wire, but also agree with Trelja in that I think excellent wire can be had without going too extremes. Where I think most of the high value wire lies is in the middle of a reputable company's line, eg I use Syn. Res. Mid-priced ICs and speaker cables, and I also use their SR/MC power cords. When I went up one notch in Syn. Res. ICs, there was minimal improvement but a doubling of cost. I have auditioned some expensive PCs that sounded worse than my SR/MCs. I concluded that I was already beyond the diminishing returns area. However, If the cost of my components doubled to $70K, I maybe really could take advantage of even better wire??? Only you guys with the high bucks systems can answer that? Cheers. Craig

Hey, what's wrong with the rating system? Just tried to give high marks and the thing came back as negatives. What's up, Audiogon?

I often find the prices of some of these cables to be incredible. Certainly it doesn't cost considerably more to use teflon as opposed to PVC, or one grade of copper over another. Making jackets and tubes, braiding or twisting etc can have their own additional costs involved, but stuff like that is done for all kinds of cable, computer networks, power transmission, video etc, and it doesn't cost very much. The cost of designing, testing, prototyping and perfecting a design go into making more exotic designs more expensive but I can't see that these projects would take so long as to drive the cost up to these high levels. I was just looking at the Kimber Kable site this morning, and again this afternoon - they have a brand new site up and running - complete with price increases. 4VS up $1/foot, 4TC up $2.60/foot - and certainly the R&D costs for those cables has long since been recouped and the manufacturing of those is nothing new. The thing I found most laughable on their site was the breakdown for BiFocal X, its $120/foot, but a whopping $600 for termination! Who is terminating these things? The designer himself at $100/hour for nearly a whole day?

Now I can see that one company needs to keep up with the Jones' in order to maintain a certain level of reputation. If they determine that their cables match the performance of another company, they must charge a similar amount otherwise they seem like a "cheap" company in the sight of their customers, but geez, isn't this getting out of hand?

I didn't believe that cables made much of a difference as long as they were a certain quality, so I played around some, comparing zip cord to Kimber 8VS to some cheap hardware store wire that I twisted and braided in a completely unscientific way - and the cable I made myself indeed sounded terrible, and the others steps better, so I can see that there is something said for certain designs, and using quality components etc, but I haven't had the guts to lay out big dough to try the multi thousand dollar cables. Seeing how the components and designs don't warrant the high prices, I don't ever think I could bring myself to spend such a crazy amount on cables. The price is dictated by the market - somewhat like a fine wine, where it may not cost too much more to process than other wines, but because it turns out so well, it has a greater value. But by the same token, you can detect a much greater difference between a $4 bottle and a $40 bottle of wine than you could tell between a $40 bottle and a $400. I think once you get beyond the $40 bottle, its a bit crazy to spend the $400 - unless you have plenty of money. Some people have spent a considerable amount on the equipment, and can now afford to tweak with higher and higher priced cables and that's where the market is for those items. I think there really is a point of seriously diminishing returns.

One more point. We must also consider that although materials cost and manufacturing are a very small percentage of expensive cable costs, it may take an awful lot of Non-recurring Engininering (R&D) to get to the design of that cable. I doubt that Nordost Valhalla costs 20X more to produce than Nordost Solar Wind (Hell, they look the same!), but it does sound a ton better and it probably required more R&D to get it that way.

OK, if so many are convinced that very expensive cables are a rip-off, who produces cables that sound everybit as good as top-of-the-line offerings from the big boys, e.g. Nordost Quattro Fil, Cardas GC, Kimber Select, etc. IN A HIGHLY RESOLVING SYSTEM?

Unfortunately, I believe that a lot of bias is introduced because people with lower resolving (generally, lower cost)systems absolutely will not see improvements from expensive cables. They therefore conclude that Brand XXX sounds the same as the expensive cable in all systems. I would be curious to hear from those that have systems that retail for >$50k, yet have significantly <10% spent on interconnects and speaker wire and <10% spent on PCs. I don't mean to suggest that all >$50k systems are better, but I am trying to put this in the context of the most expensive cables.

Is there anybody using <$250/meter cable in a >$50k audio system. If yes, please let us in on the magic.

Finally, if the big boys have such huge profit margins (and they do) why doesn't our free market handle this by us favoring high-value cable manufacturers? Are we all just sheep following advertising dollars? In the pre-internet days, we could blame the audio rags, but now we have forums like these to disseminate reviews and therefore can only blame ourselves if we are being "ripped-off".