Since making a spread sheet with my audio system prices, I have been thinking(shocked) about my total investment in cables. My total system retails at $67,000 (Digital and analog front ends included). I purchased all of it here on Audiogon so my investment is about 50%. Of that I have about 10% invested in interconnects and cables and another 10% in Power Cables (Shunyata Hydra included). That's $13,000 worth of wire. I'm starting to question whether it might be more effective to put some of this budget into acitve components. It would take forever to listen to all possible combinations, but would like to hear others experiences with relatively high end systems and cable selection. It would seem to me that the point of diminishing returns would be reached sooner with cables than with speakers and amps. Do most of you follow the 10% "rule" for cabling? How do PCs fit into this rule? Are there any super bargain cables capable of keeping up with highly resolving electronics?
In my $16K system of new and used components, all the wire adds up to a hair under 10%. This wasn't by design, but I just happened to come across this posts and did the math. I was surprised by how close to 10% I was without even knowing it!
Muralman - I said I'm not sure why we need thick speaker wires. My Acoustic Zen Satori Shotguns have gauge 7 each (about 1" dia.) and I think it is overkill but I trust AZ designer Robert Lee and bought the cable. The reason for doubt is simple - why do we need very thick wire or huge damping factor if inductor in series with the woofer has about 0.1 Ohm? Inductance of the wire improves but very little so why to go to such thick wires?
I read on the DIY forum about good results with cotton ,that you mentioned, as a dielectric. Making it pretty is secondary issue but obtaining high quality copper or silver wire is difficult.
I re trimmed my Satoris with new spades and discovered that wire has inside isolated strands (9 I think) + 1 strand that is not solid but has inside again 9 very small strands. More complicated than I expected.
I understand that making cables in small quantities and exotic technologies (zero crystals - means cooling metal very slowly in hot forms so that crystals can not form) but price of some excellent wires (like Stealth Indra) are reaching price of a small car. When I hear no comments from my non-audiophile friends it means they think I'm crazy. For them spending more than $100 on an amp or $500 on speakers is a sin (or madness).
Kijanki........ Wow......... You know your stuff. I don't know anything about cable science. I just know by experience what works, and what doesn't. My stand on insulation is not total. I am open to anything that will prove me wrong. It has to make sense, that's all. Foamed Teflon has piqued my interest, and cotton too. I am not satisfied with the interconnect I am using. I will be making my own. Mylar is not on my shelf.
You rhetorically asked if skin effect in solid wire is audible. If you allow me to answer, yes, very much so on my system.
I hope you don't think I am arguing with you. From what I read, we agree on points of common experience. I had the pleasure of listening to Shunyata SCs in comparison with solid wire. The Shunyata brought frequency extremes in focus. The solid wire held superior in the mids to my ears.
This paradox troubled me no end. It taught me cable science is more complicated than I wanted to believe. That is of what you wrote on your post.
One thing was for sure. I am happy to have mono amps. That allows me to keep my SCs very short - 18". That way, inductance, and capacitance are kept to an inaudible minimum.
Muralman - from technical point of view dielectric constant of insulation affects capacitance between wires as well as dielectric absorption. Mylar is horrible and it is leading reason of bright tweeters in cheap speakers. Mylar's dielectric constant is in order of 4 while Teflon is about 1.5. Foamed Teflon is even less and oversized sleeves improve it even more (wires like AQ Sky). There is also factor of skin effect that starts at gage 18 for copper at 20kHz. Can all this be audible? I think we can hear what is even very difficult to measure. There are two ways to deal with skin effect in speaker cables where we need thicker wires (I'm not sure why). One is to use copper tape (often seen in crossover's inductors) but this is often not very practical. Another is to split thick wire into whole bunch of thinner wires. They have to be isolated otherwise current will jump from strand to strand (trying to get outside where resistance is lower because of skin effect) trough impurities. It improves things but wires are still in each other's magnetic field and only surface increased. Remedy for that is to use helical pattern of wire on outside of thick hollow core so that each wire is only in magnetic field of two neighboring wires. Now if you add to this issue of inductance of the wire and purity of the metal things are getting really complicated because not only absolute inductance and capacitance are important but also ratio of them. Poor IC cable might have 25pF/0.5uH per foot while great one might reach 2.5pF/0.05uH. Metal purity and type plays role. Silver cables are very fast snappy sound but copper - even few percent adds dimensionality and reduces brightness. Amount of crystals and impurities between them is also a factor (copper oxide is a semiconductor). Things are way more complicated. I could hear improvement in clarity but have to admit that I bought top of the line IC only because it was cheap (relatively) used. If it is placebo effect - great.
Sorry for this BS in previous post - I didn't mean it. I probably already feel guilty for not helping. My stepfather who is elderly distinguished professor of law was spending his free time in Salvation Army stores to buy as much as possible (to stretch his dollar) sending hundreds of parcels to poor families abroad. When I think of it I feel guilty every-time I spend money (not only for expensive cables).
I know this sounds nut case, but I say my system unveils cables for what they are. I can predict how they sound by how they look. Simply said, regardless of any money value, cables with the most insulation sound the worst. With every wrap discarded the cable sounds better. The culprit, as Speltz says on his site, is random white noise bleeding into the music signal. It is woefully loud on my system.
"Yup, the $100/pair IC's were identical in performannce with perhaps an even greater dynamic range and enhanced clarity"
Yes, I've heard stories like that before. Next person says that he bought $0.12 wire in Home Depot and it was much better than mentioned $100 cables.
Cables do change sound and it my case more expensive cable improved lower midrange that sounded a little thin with AQ Indigo (class D amp) but I'm not sure if next 10x dollar increase would buy audible difference - at least for my inexperienced ears.
What is getting improved might not be appreciated. For instance some don't like certain DACs like Benchmark because their clarity makes them sound "sterile" and "less dynamic". I even heard opinion that instruments should blend more together and guitars sound too clean. Fuzz guitar will always sound more lively than super clean Jazz guitar and if cheaper wire is making it for you - go for it and don't spend money on expensive cables. There is no right or wrong here.
It is also important to mention that placebo effect works in both directions - If you don't believe in cables then cheaper cables will sound better to you. It is possible that in my case more expensive cable gives me only placebo effect but I'm still happy as long as it does. Also cables are non-perishable items and I can spend more to avoid buying them over and over again.
It always puzzles me why people who don't believe in cables post on cable forum. Does anybody know? It sounds a little like deaf man answering add for music teacher just to tell them not to count on him.
Please don't give me BS about helping poor instead of expensive cables. If you want to help poor you should not be in this hobby to start with and you should not drink coffee or alcohol because you could help poor instead(and it is bad for you).
Llanger hits on something obvious, but never the less, extremely important. If music is truly the reason behind our obsession with this hobby, then any system that could reasonably reproduce sound accurately would be enough. Of course that is not the case in the least. We all have OCD to some degree or another and perpetually ruminate over the potential improvements that could be affected in our systems if only...you get the idea. Personaly, I cashed in my last mega system a couple of years ago and have been playing around with that money ever since, vowing to not spend any new money going forward (maybe even paying off a few bills along the way). I have stuck to my self imposed promise and have managed to put together a system that satisfies my musical soul even more than the mega system. Case in point, I came across a professional version of a popular interconnect available to the recording industry and compared them to my $6500 IC's. Yup, the $100/pair IC's were identical in performannce with perhaps an even greater dynamic range and enhanced clarity. Bottom line is that we should not have to spend obscene amounts of money on Audiohype. Setting a reasonable budget and knowing what's important to YOU are most important and efficacious. Being hoodwinked by the Audio Industrial Complex is not!
Metaphysics and pseudo-psychology are all fine and well. But if one can afford thousands and thousands of dollars on wire, then one has too much money. To me, such monies would be better spent on assisting the less fortunate among us. People listen to music, not metals that are efficient conductors of electricity.
Simple. Your system is as good as the weakest link. The cable cost relative to the system is not a good measure. Find the weakest link, improve on this, then go to the next link. If your source or speaks are limiting, cables are not going to do anything. Reduce the number of cables and components, this reduces the weakest points.
I use a DIY thin ribbon SC that cost a tiny fraction of other component's and beats the band. The Speltz IC does all that can be done letting the boys in the band through. I is the power cables where I have to drop the bucks. They provide the grand ole stage.
Like Comfedboy, I felt that the money should pretty much all go into components until I started listening to different power cords and cables. Now I'd put the auto analogy another way. To me, putting cheap cables on good equipment is like putting worn, under rated tires on a Porsche. You spent all that money on audio equipment, but still aren't hearing what its capable of. I'm not saying that more expensive is always better, but there are better and worse cables out there. The hydra power conditionerds made a huge improvement in my system.
Hi guys, I am completely new to higher end audio and am just now trying to figure it all out - so many opinions, claims and feasible sounding arguments to deal with and come up with my own conclusions. I read the reviews and listen to people with an open mind, but - with a healthy dose of skepticism thrown in. I am now at the cable selection phase of getting my entry level system dialed in and to be honest a lot of what I read about of what 'this' and 'that' little addition to an already ok piece of cable can do if you were prepared to to spend multiple thousands of dollars more sounds like a bunch of malarky to me, still I am not in an informed position....yet. What I would like to see is a an organized event where we got all these people together who sell this extremely expensive cable, blindfold them, and with all other variables controlled, have them guess which is their cable. I would put my money on it that most would fail miserably, still I think that would make for a very interesting shoot-out in TAS and I think it would sell a lot of copies of the mag. My take on the whole thing so far is the cable companies are making bank, the retailers are making bank off the cables and the magazines are making bank through ads and reviews (which sell more mags)......all these people have nothing to gain by telling us cables don't make THAT much difference. At the end of the day what you hear is a very subjective conclusion and you are being told to an extent what you are "supposed" to hear.....a self-fulfilling prophecy. The question is wether this is justified and a simple double blind experiment like I suggest could lay it all to rest. Just some thoughts from a novice.
I only admit this here on Audiogon my friends would think Im looney to spend so much on PC,s, I had my Oppo fitted with an IEC and use a Python Helix VX PC and my Denon 1910 with the Anaconda Helix VX PC. Maybe this thread should be System relative to cable .
I would also have to agree with having some middle ground in determing how much to spend on cables. As mentioned, if you have a high quality system,then usng more moderately priced cables will still work ver well. But, of course, no matter how good your system, you do not want to opt for low grade cables.
Recently had a chance to try Morrow Audio interconnects and speaker cables. Mike Morrow is one man who loves audio and it's reproduction in the home. His cables will blow you away for a budget price of around $200 to $600. PLUS YOU GET 60 DAYS NO HASSLE RETURN AND REFUND..no hoops or fine print. FYI, I've had $20K plus cables from Transparent and MIT...these are better:O)
Wow you got a lot of crazy responses. Don't make this rocket science cause it aint. First, demo some cables in a reasonable price range and see what works best in your system. If you are using very high-end gear to begin with, you should not have to spend That much on cables and I would advise against it. For example, I have listened to both Linn and Simaudio gear with Musaeus (an inexpensive cable) and I would not ever bother to go much beyond it with that gear. You will spend tons of $$$$ for an incremental improvement. By all means experiment but, Dont go crazy. IMO Purist offers great value in their entry to mid level cables. So does Kimber. Good luck.
I wouldn't even worry about power cords except to put a decent budget upgrade on until you have brought the interconnects and speaker wire to a highly improved state
I have read that many have spent quite a bit in thier systems. My question is, What kind of transformers and power supplies are in these components? I am talking mainly about power cords and conditioners. Maybe a modification to the transformer ( better transformer) or power supply would render better results. It is hard to believe that with the amount invested that the components would not already have top notch discrete components inside. I can see why one would question the investment in power cords and conditioners. Speaker cables and interconnects are a different story.
This is a great thread of opinions from different people. I personally do not have a set ratio of cable vs equipment. i'll throw out my two cents of worth as well.
The material cost to make a 1M cable may be just a few pennies. This is well known. Though, I consider the following:
1: Can "I, other DIYers or other companies" make the same quality cable for how much it costs the high priced cable company to make it?
2: Even "I, other DIYers or other companies" have the skill and equipment to make it to the high priced factory's spec, will it sound the same as one coming out from that factory?
3: The only way to compare the cable made by "myself, other DIYers or other companies" and the cable made by the high priced cable company is to buy both and compare them in person. Why not just buy one at the first place in stead?
I personally can not make one. I would just let the cable company make my hard earnt money. I don't look at things with how much it costs to make. I look at it's value to me. when the price is below it's value to me, i'll pay for it.
Some people brought up a topic about a $500 cable sounds the same or out performs a $5000. It is their opinion in their system, not mine. The only way to find out whether they are the same or not is to buy both $500 and $5000 cable and compare them by myself. As the power cords i tried, I found the more I pay, the more detail is recovered from music. (I look at the whole audio system as a music recovery unit, degradation started as soon as it was recorded on the media. The whole system is just trying to recover as much detail as the original performance performed. There will not be an equipment performs better than a performer is performing in live.)
There's another topic about whether the price difference worth the performance difference. I would say it varies. It's all depends on how different people look at their money. There are people spending $10000 like spending a $100 bill. In that case, the little performance difference will be worth the price tag to them.
Buying audio gear means buying the experience to me. The more budget I have, the wider range of products I can experience with. While forum reviews provide a great communication interface between different players with different setups, I will only evaluate whether the experience is worth it's price tag or not when I can try it in person. I do not own any expensive cables non equipments but i'm willing to buy them as long as i can afford them. The reason is that it is my hobby. If this cable sounds good to me and I can afford it while i have the gut to take the risk of it sounding below my expectation, why not give it a try.
It is just how audio means to me and i'm working toward to experience as many different equipments as i can.
ASI Liveline Cables.... These are, I would call one of the best cables on the market today. They are neither cheap nor expensive. A pair of IC costs $995. But they just do everything right and sonically correct for most systems...regardless of price. Most of the times people go for higher and higher in the cable chain because they do not want to under utilize their system. Cables do play their own trick in the final presentation of the sound but who knows what would have been the exact size of your soundstage if the electronics were all in one box (no cables in between)....basically if we can get a cable which brings out almost everything and presents it in a manner where there is not much to find flaw with (though one can still find some) you would be pretty much done. Getting to this point in general is a long and expensive process unless you have some 500 different cables from different price range to try out from.
This is when we start looking for a "GEM" which does that fine balancing act of doing everything to a level where you stop bothering further!! I found the Livelines just that.... Very neutral, exceptionally fine tonal balance, nice presentation (soundstage width, depth, precision), Rich and detailed, fatless but full of body and texture, leading edge and trailing edge clarity, definition and decay...you name it!!!
What more can you ask for ? And they are priced in a bracket where its affordable but not cheap. When you hear them, you would not be able to take them off your mind..I can bet.
My hat is off to many of the writers in this thread: so informative from 2001 forward! I'm a total newbie and just bought a 100$ monster cable for my new tv but have no idea what cable is best for my new cambridge audio amp. Is there a recommended budget cables list somewhere online, like at an audio mag, that someone could link to?
Dave_b, the accelerators are ok but SR's Apex are 100 times better. I'm curious to see what you would think of an all SR top-O-line cables with a Powercell and a Teslaplex outlet. ;-)
After extensive listening with the Monster Z200i vs MIT's Magnum M1 Proline IC's the winner is the Z200i RCA's! Also trying to gain an improvement over my Monster M2.2s speaker cables by auditioning SRTesla Accelerator, Purist Aqueas Anniversary and Analysis plus Big Siver Oval's. Also tried Magnum M1 speaker cables but they failed horribly. So far the SR's have not bettered the monster's and it looks bleak for the others as well.
I'll say this again, one of the best finds in cabling is the Monster Z200i IC. The shame is they are discontinueing it. It allows a huge soundstage with extremely pure and grain free highs, open warm and detailed mids with killer fast bass. I am currently trying to best it with A/B listening off of my CDP which has XLR and RCA outs with the same line level signal output.
Imo, audiophile-grade equipment and decent source material need good cables to preserve the signal quality by adding as little distortion as possible. Unfortunately this doesn't usually doesn't come cheap, even with used cables. I find it hard to believe that anybody would claim they can't hear the difference between RadioShack wire and a decent set of cables, unless they've blown their ear drums and/or mind out...
The correct answer depends on the following list of factors, and once you plug them into the formula you should be able to find out if you've spent too much (or too little) on your cables for the optimal sounding results.
I * D +(I/O) = T
T (%)- this is the answer, and it is very important that your budget is within +/- 0.5% (this formula works only in USD). For those rare cases where you've either spent too much or too little, please stay calm and do not panic (*refer to below for additional instructions).
I - This is a whole number which represents the number of cables used in your system.
D - Dimitri's factor. This is a critical number which is based on the extensive market research (performed by the IGOR Geneva Consortium for Profit) that takes into account exchange rate volatility (among other things that cannot be shared due to international trade secret -- patent pending) of countries where the components were manufactured. Take the price that you have paid and multiply by corresponding manufacturer number: UK = 1.0, China = 2.7, Germany = 0.7, USA = 4.0, Japan = 0.6, Others = 0.74
O - Oscillation value. If you believe that cables make a meaningful difference in your system's performance, use 1. If not, use 0 for this value. And, multiply that by percentage of the components that you purchased used (including demos). For those who only buy used equipments, divide by 0.2 if you think you usually get the best prices on your components. If not, use 0.5
I realize that I should have responded to this thread (and saved everyone their precious time to listen to music). Still, it is never too late.
*If you are either above or below the correct T%, please trade your items on Audiogon and comfirm the optimal system configuration by using the formula again.
And to add insult to injury just when you think you've found a good combination of cables all away around a different cable, not necessarily more expensive by any means,in combination with other cables, again not necessarily more expensive, can give your system a sound you never thought possible from your system or any system in your particular listening space.I've recently had my jaw hit the foor, not from elecrecution, but from hearing what I heard when I put on two Tekline cables to my cdp and preamp, skinny little things, as well as a generic looking cable to my conditioner, replacing an expensive high end cable. Actually the three Tekline cables added to my system were of significant value and switching just three little thin cables way outdid the Synergidtic Absolute and Dream State high end expensive cables and now my system sounds like it never has before. I had given up on power cables thinking at $2500 cables and good sound I was done. With the swap of much lesser costly cables improved the sound dramatically and it was a no cost veture in fact I came out several thousands of dollars a head to use these awesome cables from Tekline. If you haven't heard about them yet you probably will. I ordered 4 of the bigger ones even thouigh they are not really necessary I'm curious. I'm pleased with my cable upgrades and even though a new cdp or preamp may have, you would think, a more dramatic improvement in sound I'm here to say in my system in the moods I've been in and maintaining a healthy diet have noticed that three power cables of relatively acceptable price points have done more in the wow factor than new cdp and preamp. The difference was/is a mind expanding experience as it shows what can be done with good imagination and workmanship.I'm extremely pleased with the sound of my system now. It's better than ever and the only thing I can blame it on is the three cables, less expensive, less well known than what I had on previously. But I mean I couldn't decribe the difference in English as it is my only language. These cables are still blowing my mind. This is not an ad for any particular componany but just a testament that the correct cables for your system, regardless of brand or hierchy in Audioland, make a dramatic improvement if one is lucky enough to find the right cables. This process for me has bveen a learning process working my way up to the point where I'm at and returning me funds in the thousands.I am pleased with my new sound and can't wait, for the sake of curiosity, what scotts big high end cables will sound like.
If you want a really excellent cable for very little money then check out Frank's work at Signal Cable (and no I don't work for him, I'm just a loyal customer). My system is not in a league with yours (Naim Nait 2, Linn LP12, Kudos tuner, Mimik II cd player, B&W 805's and an ASW 800 sub), but it seems to me that spending thousands and thousands on wire is ridiculous, and the people at NANA think likewise.
Try Mundorf Silver/Gold ribbon cable. An absolute bargain DIY or ready made compared to what you have paid so far. I find it interesting that people who ain't slow in the head, maki'n all that bread to afford this high end audio will spend crazy money on COPPER? Being a jeweller[English spelling] I am aware of the way even minute amounts of Gold [1%]alloyed with silver can significantly alter the molecular properties of said metal. For $13,000 I should be able to make the cable out of pure gold. Advantage would be very flexible even as solid core, no oxidization, superb malleability means it would never break, will never lose its value, superb electrical properties. Disadvantage, VERY expensive! I use Supra Ply 3.4/S bi-amped with 4 runs of cable per channel and I am a very happy chappy. I am curious to make a very high end cable and would happily give the Mundorf a try 66-49Euros/M for top silver/gold foil or 1.5mm wire with ptfe and they don't like so many others add extra digits to the purity % of their cable. What they offer is as pure as it can get in the real world.
Baam23f "Ok, cables do sound different to you, how come no one talks aout written proof and measurements? In my system expensive transparent cables were compared to off the shelves once. To me they sounded the same and measured the same."
Well, they could be identical, many audiocables do the same things wrong. But what did you meashure? Many audiophils belive in the holy frequenze-response, but without too much knowing what it really represents. If you meashure a speakers on-axis response it only tells you the speakers total acoustic energy, not anything about the quality or dynamic contrast and so on. It might be flat, but that does not mean that it sounds good. A waterfall will clear up a few things, but the biggest cable-differences will be seen in a pulse/step meashuring.
a difference that makes no difference is no difference.
if you hear a difference between two components, but you are indifferent to replacing one component with the other, the perceived difference is inconsequential.
it may not be a question of price justifying the difference but rather, "the difference is insignificant".
my point is that for some, an insignificant difference is no difference.
Cable differences should be fairly easy to hear on a 30K system...unless you truly can't hear it, in which case you shouldn't be able to hear the difference between the 30K system and pair of JBL's and a reciever. Given that, I would cash in the system and get something cheaper. That said, you can have great cables for less than the mega buck stuff many of us have.....the not hearing ANY differences is a concern however. Maybe a hearing test would be a good investment. Or did you hear SOME differences but not enough to justify the price ?differences?
Baam23f Sorry to hear that you are so far away. We would have had lots of fun. If you every travel this way the offer stands, my doors are open. Take care,
thank you for the invitation, I would have liked it very much, but I am on the opposite side of the country. What can i say again? My system is pretty good overall (30k).. When it came down to cables I never heard any difference. Please note that I am not opening an argument here, I just wanted to post my opinion based on my own experience. Best regards,
Baam23f You wrote that you could not hear the difference. I do not know your system or the cables that you were comparing. I have also never tried to measure cables, but you are more than welcome to listen at my place in order for you to be able to hear the differences that cables can make. For better or worse. It is all about system synergy. If you are in the Pacific Northwest drop me an e-mail and stop by. Cheers,
I think that around 10% is a reasonable target, give or take a few percent. Those that don't hear any difference should only spend 1%. If something blows you away and costs 20% then you'll need to seriously consider blowing your budget.
Ideally you'll be able to compare cables in your system before you buy.
IMHO, setting out to spend a certain percentage is a recipe for failure.
Ok, cables do sound different to you, how come no one talks aout written proof and measurements? In my system expensive transparent cables were compared to off the shelves once. To me they sounded the same and measured the same.
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