Does anyone find it to be "hard work" to audition cables? I find that I have to be 'fresh' before I can begin to listen to cables. After I begin, I can only listen, with the intensity needed, for a period of about an hour.
As I do A/B comparisons, it sometimes seems, my impressions change as I listen. Sometimes the differences are so small or subtle, that I question if I'm hearing a difference at all. Have I lost it?
How do you folks do your cable auditions? I'd really like to know.
Mr Jafox Maybe the whole point of my posts is that once one reaches an high echelon in the quality of the components in one system, things such as one interconnect cables or fancy power cords make no difference.
You are obviously misconstruing what i am saying here: I am not saying that there is no difference in audio components.. there are marked differences between certain things, but after myself and two other people failed to tell any differences between the same album on SACD and remastered CD on a blind test, i decided to revise my thinking, and evaluate my own perspective on what i am hearing.
Maybe the system we did the SACD vs. CD test on wasn't high-end enough? maybe two people in their twenties and one in his thirties are going deaf? maybe the universal player we used for testing sucks? maybe the SACD was implemented poorly?
The only way to find out the truth is through what you call "silly" testing... the same type of testing statisticians and scientists have been using for years. Very silly indeed. Sorry, not all of us have silver ears like you, and i need more reliable methods than my own subjectivity to find out what REALLY sounds better.
Does the $1400 trivista tube DAC really sound better than the analog output stage on the Yamaha S2500? Why should it sound better? just because it is more expensive or because it has great reviews on Audiophile? Has anyone actually done a real blind test comparison between both units..?
Maybe the analog stage on the Yamaha S2500 is implemented well enough, so there is no audible difference? You assume i should be hearing a difference, and my point is.. maybe there is none, and that is what intend to find out.
Mr. Jafox... maybe the Emperor is not wearing any clothes.
The whole point of your posts has been a series of consistent themes: 1) Cables and other component swaps in YOUR system have indicated no audible differences by you or others who heard it; 2) because YOU do not hear such differences, they are therefore subjective; 3) all the rest of us are only fooling ourselves by our claimed non-blind tests since these differences may exist "but is not something our human ears can detect".
"is that once one reaches an high echelon in the quality of the components in one system, things such as one interconnect cables or fancy power cords make no difference."
Mary, Mary, quite contrary.
As for your four consecutive MAYBE's: 1) "High-end enough"...now that is subjective.....but the answer to the spirit of your question is: possibly; 2) highly doubtful; 3) possibly; 4) possibly
I never claimed to have silver ears. I simply stated I heard an immediate difference that was validated upon a return to the previous product in the link. I simply did not need the "truth" from blind testing as my ears already made it very clear of the differences.
Please search for the word "better" in all posts of this thread and make a note that I did not use this anywhere in my text. I am talking of differences .... not what is better. That something is or was better was your conclusion, not mine.
You are right, I did wrongfully assume there would likely be a difference between the Yamaha and the Trivista. I have heard a few auditions in the past where differences were just not there for me. And this could be the case here. But the implementation of your test pretty much doomed the opportunity for you to hear any differences if they may have existed. And THAT was what I attempted to point out.
As for the Emperor, I believe he is wearing clothes. He just needs to clean his ears and open his mind to the experiences of others, and not be so conclusive that events that occur for him will necessarily be the same for others.
Mr. Jafox If i can't even trust my own subjective hearing, i don't think i can trust the subjective hearing of others, specially people who can hear "differences" in power cords, bybee quantum filters, shakti stones, granite stands and speaker cables lifters, LOL
If you want to believe in audio voodoo and marketing hype, go ahead, i will stick to my silly scientific methods, which hopefully will have more validity than the "experience of others"
To anyone who is so sure of your golden ears, i invite you to stop by my place and do some blind tests to see what we can hear.... maybe i am wrong, but at least i am open minded enough not to call blind tests "silly"
Yuri, You are fighting windmills. Some time ago, John Atkinson (an expert for audio and any other matter) said that, if only a few people can hear a difference, then there is a difference. Thus, if 5% of the population think there is a difference (and 95% do not), then there is a difference!!! I guess that sums it up about the science and audio (and Stereophile for that matter). Our systems produce illusions. We should not argue about whose illusion is more realistic... Best regards to everybody,
There was a fellow eary on in this thread, 'Bob' who said we should get a good cable and stick to it. he said it well. I buy a well regarded IC and stick with it for five about five years and then I buy another well regarded one.
This can fix any oxidation or any other problem. I am much too busy enjoying my music and the rest of my life to give so much of myself to so little of a concern.
Note: The best improvement you will ever make is your first upgrade from what came with your component or what you bought at Circuit City, Radio Shack, etc.
Yuri, I am sick of this ^%$# out of your mouth. You stand on your soap box telling us “folks” to listen to you because your Toys ‘R Us system can not discern the difference in Sonics between different cables and components. Then you “dare” me to come listen to your mid-fi system so you can prove to me how poor it does resolving detail. Wow, I am impressed!
Below is just a snippet of your lecture:
“Are you willing to bet you will be able to tell the difference between your expensive power cable and a cheap one in a blind test, consistently over 50% of the time? I am willing to bet money you can't. Anyone in the Northern NJ / NYC is more than welcome to stop by and take me up on my bet...”
“Here is the power chord double blind test link folks:”
“Guys, don't take this personally, but…”
“Musical Fidelity Tri Vista 21 DAC against the analog outputs of my Yamaha S2500”
“I dare anyone claiming that you can positively tell the difference between ICs, to test any of their expensive ICs against my home made Belden coax ICs on a set of blind tests, and consistently tell the difference between them.”
Then you continue your ranting with a comment like: (note I left the typo’s for your pleasure) “I am not saying there is no difference.. there may be one, but is not something our human ears can detect.”
What the %$#@ are you talking about. Like our ears are somehow inadequate in hearing these differences, yet you can recognize a friendÂ’s voice over a cell phone with a speaker that has no fidelity what so ever. IÂ’m sorry Yuri, you have no idea what youÂ’re talking about, and your speeches to us while you stand on your soap box are growing very old.
Then you have the gall to jump on JafoxÂ’s back. Son, you have no idea who you are talking with . This man would put your limited experience and intellect to shame. Now if you will please shut up, so I can stop reading your worthless nonsense.
Yuri's correct about one thing: the ultimate sound doesn't change once you reach the best possible setup. When do you know achieve it? until you are satisfied with your setup. However, it doesn't mean different cable will not change the sound in your ultimate setup. It only means that you found the best component possible for your setup which includes cables. How do you know if the cable you own is the best? You will need to explore in many different systems possible. i.e. I tried my cable in 5 totally different setups and all sound very good with this particular cable. If it doesn't pass this test then I wouldn't even consider it. As least to me, a good cable should work in any setup. This will throw away the system dependent theory. If a system is highly resolving then any little change will make a difference. It is like listening through hearing aid. On the other hand, do we listen to music with hearing aid? probably not. The listener can decide for themseleves. I would never suggest which cable is the best cable but rather I would suggest which group of cables would be good choice. There is no such thing as best since it is based on individual listener's ear and mind. Don't forget about room acoustic too. Speaker placement is very important too. It took over many many many auditions for the speakers to settle down in its best possible position.
First I love your concept of getting rid of the "system dependant" comments. Cables are only system dependant if they are making up for weaknesses in the system. A strong system will help us determine what the cable is doing, but if the cable is bad, it's bad (and in my opinion there are more bad ones than good ones) This may be why some people claim cables make no difference or are scams, snake oil and the like. Many cables are just plain &^%$ and are simply created to take advantage of the audiophile hype. That is true, but there are also some truly amazing cables on the market, finding them is the trick. Especially if we want "affordable" ones. I believe some people have found some affordable great cables, but I unfortunately have not found the same. The cables that I have had the greatest success with are not cheap, but I have not quite looking either. In fact I'm awaiting another set to try, and I am studying the science to begin building some beta interconnects to try. It's interesting in that the only way to know what you want from a system is to have heard the best it can be. It is then possible to try and downsize from there, trying to find a cheaper alternative that provides the aspects in sonics we find most pleasing.
As an example, I tried a 300B SET amp in my system. It pointed out what was possible in the mid-range and dimensionality with my other components. It also showed me the weaknesses of SET amps. I took that experience and through footers and cabling I was able to match the mid-range qualities within my solid state amp. I could not have done this without hearing what was possible, this is why it is so important to try other friends equipment in our own systems, and why we need to hear as many systems as possible.
My goal is to continue to tweak my system to achieve the best aspects of other systems I hear (and that I chose to afford). If I continue to strive for the best of every system I have heard, then my system continues to be the best I have yet heard, and it is to my ears.
You have also brought up two of the most important and most often overlooked issues. Room acoustics and speaker placement can do more than all the money on earth. Acoustics is not only vital, but scientific and predictable. We all need to do a lot more research and self education on room acoustics if we want the best from our investment.
DBT is a fun exercise in futility,best spent with friends and a couple of beers to pass a Saturday afternoon. Everyone forgets what the first cable sounded like by the time they get to the last.Best to do it yourself with your standard cable and the new cable and be prepared to listen to the same track over and over and at different times of the day.You will eventually give in one way or the other.
Some people have built in defence mechanisms when it comes to cables having differences.I have seen this polarity in other forums and neither camp claims defeat.What it boils down to is that this is all opinions.Some hear, some don't; some don't want to hear and some want to hear.I never understand how people that say they are interested in audio as a hobby are not interested in at least trying to better their listening experience.Why would someone think nothing of buying a costly cd player and then connect it with out of the box interconnect or power cord? If people want to do Audio on the cheap, then get yourselves a theatre in a box and leave the rest of us who know better enjoy our improvements. We won't laugh at you, we are better than that.
Chang, I have a 65 year old audiophile friend with hearing aids and he could hear the improvement a Hydra 2 and Python cord made to the sound of his old 1970's AcoustatX 4 panel speakers as well as I could.He was skeptical that it would and didn't want to spend "money" Maybe a hearing test should be made a mandatory requirement when someone says they don't hear differences.
I did a blind test using Audioquest dbs cables. I put on Rippingtons, and then after a few minutes switched to Joss Stone. There was a difference. Put in Harmonic Techology cables. The difference remained...I concluded that no cables are able to make all my music sound the same.
Seriously, I am beginning to think that both positions may be partly true. I am definitely in the camp that says, "I hear a difference" regarding cables. However, I also think there are other intangible factors at work in ABX tests. I think it is possible that there are indeed differences, AND that people are notoriously unable to differentiate those differences when in bind tests. The day may come when both are substantiated to most audiophiles' satisfaction.
It IS much more difficult to apprehend the difference testing any one cable in an entire system (i.e. swapping out only interconnect from cdp to pre). Even in highly resolving systems, such changes are very nuanced. But, the difference becomes much more evident when the entire system's cables are changed. Most people, I surmise, are not wiling to go to that extreme, but merely swap a cable, don't hear too much, and conclude it's all bunk about cable differences. Take a system with average electronics and monitors, say, and you're not likely to hear much different no matter what single cable you compare A/B. But, use a more ambitious system with very resolving speakers and you can fairly easily hear cable differences when the entire set is switched out. Who wants to tie up as much as $2-4K in cables just to listen to two sets? Probably very few, even among those who claim the title audiophile. But, that IS what it usually takes to do it right. The results are most satisfactory.
Finally, I had put up a lengthy defence of sonic differences in cables on the Assylum a couple weeks ago. Several posts that had taken some time to think out. It was all deleted (as far as I was able to discern) after two days. Last time I waste effort on lengthy debate there!
You make excellent points. I know I CAN'T tie up $2-4K in cables "just to see".
Maybe if someone could explain what to listen for when auditiong cables...ie: greater frequency extension, increased detail, increased dynaminc range???? Maybe i expect too much when changing cables. Maybe ALL cables in a given price range sound the same? I know this....the more I think I know....it seems the less i actually know. hmm.....
Lacee, you got me with the hearing aid : ) Oldpet, one way to tie with 2k to 4k is sharing the cost with your audiophile friends near you. That's what I did when we compared over 50 ICs
You have to develope your sense of hearing like you do your sense of taste.Distinguishing differences in cables or wines is something that takes time to develope.Some people excell more than others and are Super Tasters in the wine world and can conjure up images of exotic fruits and flavours. Should our sense of hearing be taken any less serious?
Yeah, i feel kind of weird saying all this, because i actually get paid to listen, critically to things. :-) I'm pretty good at it too. That's why i wonder - why don't these differences knock me out? Am i expecting too much? hmmm
The differences can be verys subtle. If too subtle, I figure they're worth ignoring. Case in point, I just tried for the first time three of those Black Diamond Racing cones. My intellect said, "You know better than to think there'll be a significant difference in sound using them..." My heart said, "you never know...!" Tried them. Virtually zero effect. Should've known! Beat myself mentally for 72 hours over that...
If there was a sleight difference, not enough to elicit excitement. If you have to strain and guess, "AM I hearing a difference," then even if there IS a difference, it's not worth it. Put the money on other component upgrades. Room tuning IS definitely worth it IF you have reached the point of a certain level of cost of components and in most cases you have a dedicated room. Sticking all kinds of absorbtion devices etc in a large open-ended living room is using giant band aids to fix a largely unfixable problem.
If I had a system worth less than $2k I'd buy a lower end set of cables from a well known manufacturer, such as Kimber, Audioquest, etc. The higher up you go in components, the more attention you can spend on cables. But, yes, it usually takes exchanging out the entire set to hear a significant difference, and that difference will not typically be as significant as a component change, especially a component with new breakthrough technology such as digital amps or Rega's new laser assembly in the Apollo. (Yes, I purchased Apollo about three weeks ago - HUGE leap forward for the economical audiophile! I have grown tired of swapping multiple pairs of cables in "stacked" speaker setups, in biamped configurations, etc. I must be getting older, don't want to bend over awkwardly and get stiff back from 35 minutes of redoing the wiring. Oh, the results can pay off handsomely. I'm glad I went through it all, the buying, selling, redoing, etc. Now I feel I've got some good wiring going. But I am happy that I'm moving toward a more streamlined system, with single wired speakers and one amp instead of two etc. Pure, clean, less mucking around. Now that I've been through all this, I feel I've got great sounding cabling for MY current system. Switch components and I'd have to go through a lot of it again. That's the frustrating thing about it; every component is system specific in its sound. You've just gotta keep putting puzzle pieces together until you see the picture, er, the sound the way you like. If you're not willing to do that, then turn it off or resolve to do something else, like read, while you listen so you won't be driven crazy listening for problems in the sound.
I agree cables are the hardest part of the system to choose. But first off let me say you need realy good equipment to hear the differences. The speakers being the most important. Remember Speakers are the only part of the system that turns electrical energy into mechancial energy. I feel one should put more money into speakers than any other part of the system. Once you have good equipment then cables come into play. Cables are like going on a blind date, but you pay for the DIVORCE up front. I have MIT and Transparent. Not for the wire, I like there network boxes and how it improves the sound stage. Been thought many products. I am married now and not looking to go on any more blind dates.
You guys tell me about the equipment: TRL Marantz SA-14 First Sound Presence delux MkII Krell FPB400cx Tyler Acoustics Linbrook Signature (one piece) Room is treated with 16 Tube traps, of various sizes, placed symetrically around the 13x18 room.
I think the equipmet is revealing enough. What do you think? Thanks for everyone's help. paul
Glad to see you back. :-) 1. It seems resolving to me too. 2. I have never investigated power conditioning. Not really familiar with it or its benefits. 3. Just thinking I might be missing something. I think i'm coming down with "the disease" Adiophilia Nervosa! :( I'm trying my best to keep perspective though. Plus I don't hear obvious differences in the cables I've switched in and out. That's about it.
Thanks for getting back. BTW - how did you delete a post? paul
S23chang - I have not had the oppurtunity to hear the Rowland amps. As for tube Amps - Several things: 1. I like slam. I'm not sure you can achieve really good slam with tubes. 2. I'm NOT going to be bothered with tube bias-ing. Plus - the cost of tubes is really getting silly. 3. I think a tube amp system would be really nice for 'relaxing' around the house, with their 'euphonic' type for sound that they're famous for. But, for more serious listening, I prefer a more natural, or un-emphasised, sonic picture in front of me.
As with all things, I suppose if I heard the VAC Phi 110/110 in MY system, and loved it, I would make efforts to aquire one. I must say - the VAC amps and preamps definitely LOOK beautiful. Are the Phi 110/110 amps current production? Web site info?
I'm sure there must be other tube amps beside the VAC which would be sonically satisfactory.
Oldpet, I think there are a lot of misconception about tube amps. They can have just as much slam as SS amp. It really depends on circuit and parts used in the design. Same applies to SS amp. Jeff Rowland is more refined sound to my ears.
I'm currently using Lafayette KT-550 amp ( a non-ultralinear version of HK citation II ) and HK Citation I preamp with home made cable to drive my 80db ATC SCM10 original version. It has more slam and fuller body sound than the Bryston and your Krell amp I heard with this same speaker. One thing I didn't like the Krell is grain. It drives with punch but lack of refinement. The transient sounded quick but very un-natural. The Bryston just sounded too thin and light weight with my ATC.
Many of the tube amps use low current power supplies, that's one of the reason why you don't get the slam you're looking for. Poor power supply also lead to poor sounding. I stopped by xyz audio shop in NYC and heard the Vac PA90 (with 4 X EL34) with BW 802s. Big sound but very poor bass control. The speakers are drawing too much current where the amp couldn't handle it. This is exactly what I mean by suffering from PSU. Even with expensive cables, it didn't help the sound much.
Unlike SS amps which all have high output rating, proper power output matching is critical for tube amps.
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