Building high-end 'tables cheap at Home Despot II

Hey Lenco Maniacs!
Another belt-drive bites the dust. A local audiophile just packed up his Nottingham Spacedeck after hearing a POORLY set up L75. He could not believe his ears. He is in the planning stages for a proper plinth and I am happy to assist.
Thanks to everyone here for taking the time and making the effort to share their knowledge.
Viva the Lenco Brigade!

Now THAT is what I'm talking about: we need more reports of conversions and discoveries. The Idler War isn't as heated as it once was, now it has sunk in it is after all, an excellent system, but it isn't won yet. The issue is which system is superior, and this is an issue of ideals and scientific, empirical, verifiable truth, not the sort of thing you compromise on (except for pinheads, that is). So, rather than simply tow the Ho-Hum politically-correct line that all systems are equivalent (in the absence of actual testing to see if this is true), a HUGE bore which makes me sleepy and looking for my slippers and a comfy chair, dreaming of retirement and warm baths (and those who tow this line wonder why the world ignores them, except a tepid few), report in you onlookers! And those who have not yet tried it, try it and report in. It won't kill you, and may (i.e. WILL) even bring you that much-reported but rarely found Musical Bliss from a stereo system!!

Take, for instance, Gigantic multiple motor monsters with mile-high platters. Now I don't believe these can match a properly set-up idler-wheel drive with an 8-pound platter (at roughly an inch and a half thickness), but let's just say for argument these Megabuck Status-Enhancing Monsters can: at what cost?? How much in materials, in hardware and in research does it take to equal an 8-pound metal platter driven by a rubber wheel (it only has to be round) by a superb motor rotating (built and designed specifically for the job of driving a record player) at 1800 RPM, and anchored in wood? The idler-wheel system is simply superior (does the job better, and with less effort). And I don't believe that the priciest belt-drive available today can match one home-made Lenco.

This is what I mean by science gone bad: an inferior system is promoted by a silent conspiracy between the industry and the press; scientists and engineers come in and accept without investigating; inferior system becomes new Paradigm; new Paradigm, due to inherent weakness, invites more and more extravagant solutions; extravagant solutions cost money; cynical industry milks it for all its worth; and the stereo waters are muddied as Status-enhancing gear which sounds like crap gets rave reviews and no one knows anymore what's what. This is the can of worms we open when science goes bad. Apply scenario to amplifiers, speakers, cartridges, preamplifiers, food, etc.

Which is a way of saying, Ronnie: "Oh, you haven't heard your UP-4 yet!" ;-) (it having been mounted on a belt-drive and all). In fact, this applies to all tonearms, as one fellow remarked the other night when I demoed the UP-4 with a Decca Super Gold, a Grado Platinum, and the RS Labs with the Denon DL-103"E" (i.e. they ALL sound incredible). Based on this experience (and via my simple KEF 103.2s), he has already ordered a Grado Woody, and is going Lenco (and selling his Wilson Benesch Circle). Oh this sport of Crush the Belt-Drive is so much fun: try it at home folks, you'll make money in selling your belt-drives and can put it towards something good!!

Hey Jean, I was looking at your system pics again and realized that you may already have the answer to a question that I have been mulling over.

ON the GL88, did you discover anything in regard to screwing it to the plinth? Specifically, did you use wood screws? Is there a washer between the screw and the lenco body? Any advise re how tightly the Lenco is screwed to the plinth?

regards

Mike

In the original thread there was considerable conversation about hum that originates if the arm/cartridge crosses over the the motor. I think I am experiencing this.

I (finally) took the time to experiment with this low frequency hum from my VPI/giant Lenco/Decca (Grado now, as the Decca had to be sent off for repair).

It is coming from the cartridge interacting with the motor - either the electrical/magnetic field or amplifying the motor noise. When I de-couple the arm from the table, the low frequency hum remains audible, growing especially loud when the cart passes near the motor. Move the cartridge 6-8" away from the motor, and the hum disappears. I tried various grounding wires from the chassis and arm, and none of these made any difference. It's gotta be from the motor.

I don't think I can reset the arm - and when I move it to another corner, the hum remains about the same. The base is at the corner where the motor is, but the arm doesn't really cross over the motor directly. It seems to be more about how close the cartridge is to the motor than anything else. I have been using a grounded plug with this motor, but I doubt that's the cause. But maybe, as I am using the same motor from an earlier version but changed the cord, adding the ground. I suspect I have to somehow shield the motor better, but can't imagine how. Maybe something beneath the platter?

Any suggestions? Many thanks, and happy Thanksgiving. Btw, this baby still is magnificent, hum or no hum (it's not that loud, not nearly as annoying as, say, a ground hum).

Ccryder,
Why not try disconnecting the ground from the motor plug, or better yet, switch it out to a 2 prong plug. It may be an easy fix, well worth a try.
Of all the Lencos I have, not one has 3 prongs.
Good Luck and keep us posted.

Hi Mike: to make Direct Coupling a success the wood-screws must be tightened just so, just like tuning an instrument. So I use several wood-screws and I do indeed use lock-washers (or rubber-sided washers) to go between the head of the screw and the Lenco top-plate. I tighten until the washer is snug and solid with no sign of movement (and solid enough that if I try to move it with a screwdriver it can't be moved), and no further. I also use bolts in the original bolt-holes as Lenco intended. Also, I have Direct Coupled Lencos both with and without nitrile rubber as a shim (there seems to be some variation in the height of the top-plate), and have found absolutely NO sonic or musical penalty, recipients of either of these types of rebuilt Lencos have been universally gobsmacked, and I use both myself and am myself gobsmacked (thank you Dr. Lenco!) at the speed, detail, high, lows, midrange, power, bass and incredible dynamics, in either iteration!!

Hi Chuck: the Decca is a hummy cartridge (like the Grados), no doubt about it. The hum you're experiencing is the Decca picking up the motor's electro-magnetic field. So far, the only way to wipe this type of hum out is to follow Mario's recipe of two sheets of mu-metal glued to the platter. Click on Mario's system to see how it is done. In my own system the Decca also hums (like the Grado), but at such a low level that it is inaudible when playing music and I am not motivated to do the mu-metal mod. Also, I'm used to this sort of thing, being a fan of both Grados and Deccas (both of which hum on most turntables to some extent), and so it simply doesn't bother me (like tube fans used to some level of tube roar). You could try grounding the Lenco motor itself and see what happens, and as usual try grounding the 'table and not the arm, vice versa, both together, motor alone, all together, and so on until you achieve the best level of silence, every system responds differently to these combinations.

Over here I took my Mr. Red (copyright Mike Green ;-)) on the Great Travelling Lenco Road Show to Toronto, where a manufacturer and distributor of high-end audio goodies heard it, and he and his associates were blown away (it turned into a mega session with hours of music, no one could tear themselves away), and now there's a good chance the Lenco will be used to more effectively demonstrate their wares at an upcoming audio show, and in their shop. I won't report further until things are certain, but at least the prospect is pretty exciting news!! In order to make the demonstration more effectively, I used a $200 cheapie high-output MC to show what it can do with one hand tied behind its back, my beloved Satin M-117 with removable stylus, mounted on my Morch UP-4. Vive la Idler-Wheel!!!

Oregon & Jean: thanks both. I will try both ideas and let you know. The power of this thread is so formidable that when I was fooling around yesterday (with my wife's help listening) she was the one that said "you should post the problem on your favorite thread."

Ladies and gentlemen, for my wife to reach this opinion, well let's just say we've penetrated well down into the masses!

Thanks Jean, I'll tell you where to send the royalties :)

Mike

Hi All,

First, let me offer apologies for “My System” which resembles the untidiness of a flophouse. Instead of coherent exposition, there resides jumbled teasers. Someday soon, I must pursue some tutorial help in getting it order. Anyway, Chuck got hold of me and now has the MuMetal/Lenco application recipe and I believe he’s going to pursue the fix – a fix that will utterly banish motor generated EMF hum.

Work continues on my automated record-cleaning machine. Already there have been departures from Jimmy Neutron’s machine. The plastic gear drive interface between the ice cream maker motor and the cleaning platter had too much slop in my design which translated into wobble. This called for the introduction of a 12” “Lazy Susan” bearing assembly for the platter to ride on. With 80 balls this is quite the rumbler! A neoprene-lined chamber within “plinth” will house the 3 hp DustDevil vac motor and have a fabricated mini-furnace filter to keep cleaning fluid off the motor (fused – just in case).

Looking forward to visiting Ottawa in ten days or so to hook up with Grant for a CD release (mastered by our very own - gjwAudio1 – aka Grant) party featuring Terry Gillespie and The Granary Blues Band. Weather permitting, my wife and I hope to pay a visit to one of Jean’s old Archeo haunts, Bon Echo Park.

And maybe, just maybe… another Lenco.

Hey Mike,

You’ll have to split those royalties with Mr. Red Green.

- Mario

Who dat?

Mario, I was thinking, now that I am getting close to a two or three armed monster, you covered the platter with the mu-metal. Did you try to cover the motor first - i.e., attach shielding to the bottom of the Lenco's top plate over the motor's coils? Visualizing it, it doesnt seem impractical(?)

Mike - who has a cousin named Blue; fortunately, last name not Greene :0)

Mike, as I imagine an electro-magnetic field to work, the waves are not absorbed but are deflected by mumetal. If I am right, then the waves would flow out and emerge around the edges of the motor - still interacting with the cartridge as it plays the record. When the shielding is done for the platter, this flow around the barrier would also happen, but shielding the platter would disperse the field to the outside of the record and the interference would occur outside the playing surface of the record.

I had also thought of shielding the bottom of the platter rather than the top - this way you won't have to be so particular at adhering it. But I'll have to wait until I see the material in the flesh. Mario, is there any reason for doing the top versus the bottom?

Of course, I may be full of hot air here and this is a guess based on my extensive ignorance of electro-magnetic fields.

Hi Mike,

“Who Dat?” Really Mike, you’ve been far too south for far too long. Red Green is the lead in a Canadian comedy troop carried on many of the PBS TV stations up here. The show always includes some outrageous Red Green DIY project where he invariably ignores the premise of “Why would anyone want to do something like that?” – as in the case of outfitting a hulking 70s Buick with Gull Wing doors after yanking the stock ones off their traditional hinges with his trusty van and chains. After massive amounts of duct tape and cumbersome home brew hydraulics, he gets it to work – after a fashion.

We know that the unseen spouses behind these and other all-male shenanigans often assert some clout over what they’ll tolerate. So that we have the commencement (at the end of the show) of their Possum Lodge meeting starting out with the head-lowering Credo: “I am a man, but I can change, if I have to … I guess.”

I’ll endeavor to tie in this wildly off-topic ramble by aligning myself with Red Green as a “practitioner” in the old sense of the word on my DIY MuMetal experiment and not a scientist with all that much knowledge of the behavior of EMF – especially as it applies to the direction it takes at the shield edges. It is, however, a scientific given that what comes off those edges is highly intensified EMF because of the unabsorbing nature of the MuMetal. This has the potential of worsening the situation that we are trying to correct with Lenco motor induced hum. From this premise, I decided that shielding areas of the motor and/or top plate was impractical and I never tried it.

The critical question of EMF’s directional behavior at the shield edge is one I cannot answer with certainty. My only gauss meter is a Grado cartridge mounted in its intended environment. Does MuMetal blocked EMF act like a fluid with a degree of “wrap around” at the edges? The more I think about, the more I’m inclined to think that it does. The literature accompanying my MuMetal, while not specifically addressing the edge intensification as a “wrap around”, nevertheless implies in its caution that it does. Otherwise, why a caution at all, if blocked EMF continued outward on its blocked plane?

But Mike, don’t let my guesswork discourage you, another practitioner over something that I have only the thinnest grasp of. I’ve got a 12” by 4” sample of MuMetal (Hi permeability - and more, if you need it) that I’ll be happy to send along to you for the furtherance of Red Green science.

- Mario

Humm... now that you say it, I see the gauss field in my mind too - but what if one made a modified L shape to fit mostly over the coils without interfering with the spindle? Someone with a gauss meter could make quick work of this speculation...

I recall hearing once that galvanized steel as used in AC ducts in North America, is somewhat effective in the same EMF blocking applications as mu metal - any opinions?

Mike

Oops! A simultaneous posting with Chuck's.

Hi Chuck,

The top application will be much easier. No flanged casting supports to contend with, nor that tricky area around the bearing hub interface. Also, there's the question of idler wheel getting proper purchase on the slick MuMetal.

The combined thickness of the two foils is .01" - no geometric threat to tracking, whatsoever.

Hi Mike,

Was trying to find information that related to secondary transmitters of EMF based on alloy ferrous content, but was unable to locate it again. Somewhere in researching this last year, I visited the whole question of whether unabsorbed redirected EMF off a MuShield would pose additional emitter difficulties as various metal alloys in the Lenco (platter, motor shaft, top plate) were permeated to the degree of iron in their respective mixes.

I do remember that it was of enough concern with the unknown (and unknowable?) alloy contents in various exposed Lenco parts to solidify a decision for going up top of the platter. Even then, I had concerns that the record spindle itself, might act as some RKO tower and omni emitter of interference. Thankfully, this is not the case, and one hears only a small amount of hum when the Gauss detecting Grado is directly over the spindle. Whether this is due to chrome plating of the spindle, or the brassy elements of the bearing sump, I haven’t a clue.

But I did come across a couple of notes today that should be highlighted as REVISIONS to the Lenco MuMetal recipe. (Grant & Chuck be advised)
1- It DOES matter which layer should be glued to the platter first. The thinner, low permeable foil should be closer to the EMF source and get pressed in first.
2- Hammering MuMetal reduces its effectiveness because it changes the crystalline structure of the alloy. Put your energies into cutting the MuMetal foils with a hard surface and many, many utility knife blades. Ridging of the cut edge is the bane of this project and must be avoided. It will not promote a smooth meld to the platter and its removal is problematic. Shearing often causes its own ridging.

In my application, I was able to get away with minimal shearing of edge burrs and some very light tapping with a hammer at the spindle hole.

Ok, I'll attach it to the top of the plate. Thanks again - and for the revised notes as well. Chuck

Ohhhhh… that Red Green :) Sounds humorous.

As to being down south too long - I gist bought me a steel geetar. No kidding, a '71 Emmons "fatback" out of the local Pennysaver - yeee haar! Sort of analogous to an early telecaster in terms of sound and desirability (among steel players).

Mario your offer for a slice of that thar mu metal is intriguing, please contact me.

Mike

Anyone out there have any time on their hands to build a quick plinth? I need a 3.5 inch thick plinth with as little wood taken away as possible for a Lenco L70 Deck. Super simple - alternating layers of half inch baltic birch ply and half inch layers of mdf. I need it cut, glued and squared off - I'll take care of the rest of the finishing - I just don't ahve any access to big tools right now. Send me an email if you are interested. I'm dying to get on with my next table...

If anyone wants mumetal to shield their platter as per Mario's approach, I just ordered some and will have about 4 sets of sheets that I will sell you for my cost. The kit cost $140, so each set would be about $30 (round #, including postage). If you've got the same hum I do, this is how Mario got rid of it. Email me if you're interested.

I have finally done it: I have made the Garrard 301 (grease-bearing) the equal of the Mighty Glass-Reinforced Direct Coupled Giant Lenco!! More than once I was ready to throw in the towel and either declare defeat, or actually try a low-mass approach in the thought that perhaps the Metaphysicians (who said high-mass destroyed Garrard-PRaT and that birch-ply was the only material for Garrards) were right!!

But logically, what works for the Lencos should work for the Garrards, as what more than anything made the Lencos (and other idler-wheel drives) Supreme (in a world of ball-less belt-drives and antiseptic DDs) was de facto, in practice, actually playing a record, speed stability. High mass further improves speed stability by nailing the Lenco to the planet (and the higher the mass the bigger the nails), and also, via Direct Coupling, by reducing the background noise to an empty inky blackness. PRaT, which is Pace, Rhythm and Timing, and gestalt (all of the musicams coming across as One, as they should, rather than the vivisection practiced by many belt-drives), are all a function of speed stability. If the platter revolves at a precise and perfect 33.33 RPM while playing the record, then the PRaT and gestalt should also be perfect (assuming a perfect tonearm and cartridge in this respect and so on...). High mass storing energy and releasing it over time to damage timing was a myth put forward by the belt-drive camp to explain why high-mass BELT-DRIVES were often poor at PRaT. The real reason was that high-mass belt-drives have high-mass platters, and high-mass platters cause the belts, which always react, to react slower due to momentum, at a lower frequency, where timing resides (1-2-3-4; 1-t-t-t-two-3-4...).

So given all this, then the Garrard should have responded in the same way to the same recipe as the Lenco (even to the extent of sounding incredible with a birch-ply/MDF CLD recipe, which I still find to be the most neutral recipe, truthful, dynamic and extended at both frequency extremes, if not romantic like Amazonian Kerfafala-wood, or African Gnu-lumber), and finally, it did. It is now, as well as the Lenco, a Destroyer Of Worlds. I learned in the process that the Garrard HATES rubber mats (in fact, rubber anywhere at all), and responds incredibly well to Spotmats (which the Lenco hates). Different design and metals in the two platters, as well as different main bearings, and pretty well everything else, excepting the idler-wheel systems they share (and even so with differences) explain their different reactions to different mats.

Are there sonic differences between the two? It's hard to say, but if pressed at this early stage I would say the Garrard sounds BIGGER, like a widescreen cinema, as in everything is processed through a fish-eye lens to bring the midrange forward. But in addition to this, the soundstage seems bigger too, with shortened depth next to the Lenco, which in its turn is more lazer-focused and precise and perhaps a wee bit less dramatic, though this depends on the recording I think (some types of/recordings of bass come across with more impact via the Lenco, others via the Garrard). But this could be the mats, or something else. More comparisons in the months ahead, hopefully I will be able to do a comparison of same tonearm/cartridge into same phono stage to nail things down. But in the meantime, I am happy to report the Garrard will be sharing playing time with the Lenco in my system, and I couldn't be more pleased, especially as it was the humble Garrard SP-25 which convinced me long ago that the idler-wheel system was quite simply the superior system, and once I discovered that there was such a thing as a bigger Garrard, and most especially the fabulous Beasts the Garrards 301 and 401, I began to dream of finding one and owning one, but one never came up back then, and instead I found a Lenco. Idler-Wheels rule!!!

So tonight I am once again captured by my stereo system which won't let me go, even to the extent that Kraftwerk held me rivetted to the seat, breathless, waiting for the next electronic flourish to slam across the soundstage against a pulsating and DEEP electronic bass foundation. Viva la Idler-Wheel!!

Bravo, Jean. "Declare defeat" made me think Eclair Eclat. I think I must have a talent for this naming thing :)

So, any other Garrard Jean-o-tips except the mat? What about feet?

BTW: Will we ever get off of page three?

Mike

Wow Jean, that certainly is a beauty! This is your best yet. Looks totally professional with an upscale bearing that screams “out of my way!” The red mat takes this ancient and plops it square in the 21st century. The tonearm looks like it can cut as well as retrieve. You, and this project have traveled quite a way upstream from the Home Despot store and faux marble, though lumberyards and finish are still our touchstones. In answering your own challenge made a while back, you’ve certainly honored our Garrard ancestors with that gorgeous and stately turntable.

Thanks for the compliments all, you know what they say, "practice makes perfect!" As an aside, I deliberately showcased my amateur/slap-dash efforts in order to entice those with no experience to give the Lenco Challenge a go and join in the fun and report in with their creations, a PR tactic which was effective. Had I either built beautiful plinths or had them done and THEN posted them in the beginning, the original thread would have died in its infancy. I leave these original (and FUN!...I had so much fun substituting inventiveness for experience, good tools and talent and look back on those days of simple jigsaw, pencil, Home Despot and clamps with nostalgia!!) plinths up in my gallery and continue to urge neophytes who have never approached a tool to join in the fun, report in, and showcase their efforts: there are NO self-made plinths which are not admirable, and aesthetics does not affect sound quality a whit!

Anyway, the Garrard plinth is still unfinished, and is in fact my Prototype plinth which I'll use as a platform for future Garrard experiments. Now I know I can push the Garrard into Destroyer Lenco territory, I've already got plans for a very funky/cool/modern/fun Garrard plinth (inventiveness with cheap materials), and for two tonearms minimum of course!

I was a HELL of a battle to get the Garrard to perform up to the heights we've pushed the Lencos to so far (I was indeed ready to declare defeat), which I'm certain will displease certain Garrard snobs (the lower components of human nature will always guarantee some will find a way to keep their lead over their neighbours, even if they have to invent it by denying reality, as they most often do) who want to continue to believe the Lencos don't rate so they can continue to feel superior by the simple expedient of owning a Garrard. Nevertheless, most of those who have compared Lencos to Garrards (and if we count only those who don't have an ego-axe to grind then ALL whose testimony is then trustworthy) in their own systems have greatly preferred the Lencos, which are a more highly-evolved/elegant implementation of the idler-wheel technology. In the end, what works for the Lencos works for the Garrards, though given their different construction (the Garrards are much better-built, just not better designed) different solutions must be found to implement the principles. In order to get the Garrard up to the unbelievable heights of a Lenco taken to extremes, attention must be paid to every single detail (as with the Lencos), including taking apart and restoring the motor, cleaning and re-lubing all linkages, making sure the wheel is up to snuff. Fall behind in a single aspect, and the Garrard will not match the Lenco (which proves the Garrard is in no way inherently sonically superior to/more effective than the Lenco).

For feet I use the same technique as I do for the Lenco: large carriage bolts which with their rounded heads approximate Tiptoes. The T-nuts are hammered into the inside of the plinth so that when torqued down (after levelling) with two wrenches (one to hold the bolts in place, the other to REALLY torque down the locking nut against the large washer which goes between the nut and the Lenco plinth), the marriage/effectiveness is supreme, the solidity incredible. This results in a great increase in detail/focus/dynamics and bass tightness/slam. Again, what works for the Lenco works for the Garrard, and as for any high-end turntable at all, be it belt-drive or not, suspended or not, a good platform MUST be found to maximize the performance. That done, I still have not found footers to match what I get from my carriage bolts. Of course, there are those who don't like the aesthetics, or prefer real Tiptoes, or who have special circumstances (cannot mount on a stand of sufficient integrity) and so on, and so must find their own way.

Now the Lencos don't mind a neoprene rubber gasket at all, but to the Garrard, this is anathema. Ditto rubber mats: the Lencos LOVES them, the Garrard HATES them. Now those who don't have an ultra Lenco and are using a Garrard with rubber mat are not aware of the sonically-destructive effect of rubber on Garrards. But with a Lenco as Reference, it is all too clear. I found a Spotmat sent to me long ago by Willbewill (thanks Malcolm!) finally found its natural home on my Garrard!!

So finally, when I attended to every little detail, securely and effectively coupled the Garrard to the usual Giant CLD plinth, removed every vestige of rubber, absolutely torqued-down the bolts/footers, put an identical marble/acrylic platform under the Garrard, removed the rubber mat and replaced it with the Spotmat, THEN the Garrard was precisely in the same league as the Lenco. The moral of the story being, don't assume the Garrard is superior due to a longer history of recognition, snob appeal or better build quality: the Lenco has only recently been recognized and is not as substantial (except for the platter, which is very evidently a better and better-built design) and has no snob-appeal, but it addresses problems by sheer elegance and clarity, where the Garrard resorts to Baroque brute force to achieve the same level of performance. Those who continue to champion a low-mass approach will get excellent sound because the idler-wheel system is superior, NOT because the low-mass approach is better (an idler mounted to a pile of fertilizer will sound better than most belt-drives at whatever price). The high-mass approach is more difficult to get right, but once done right is vastly superior, and at some future Idler Festival, the low-massers will find their asses getting firmly kicked by the monsters. Too bad, as my back would LOVE for the low-mass approach to be better, and maybe some day some wunder-material will be found to do just that.

If I fight so hard to have these various approaches recognized, it's because I want to be certain the idlers have every chance of unequivocally crushing their belt-drive "competitors", for lack of a better word ;-), and do the Amazing and Unthinkable: together force the industry which saddled us with an inferior system to recant! Now THAT would be exciting, would it not?!? Btw, this is not and never was an ego issue (those who have levelled this accusation periodically since the very beginning do us all a disservice, muddy the waters due to their own ego inadequacies, and consign us all to a bizarre, ineffective and meaningless fringe element to further their own spite, and I am deeply embarrassed to have to acknowledge this problem at all), this is a matter of Ideals (I am an Idealist, with a capital "I"), of the strictures of Science faithfully followed (i.e the empirical and verifiable truth, no room for political correctness, one does not compromise with experimental results/the evidence), and always was.

One other problem I never expected to be such a large one: Political Correctness. It is currently fashionable to go about believing that no one system is superior to another, and those claiming to have THE answer must be motivated, again, by ego. And so people volunteer to belong to a kooky and quiet fringe element rather than participate in a larger and meaningful battle. But in discussing drive systems we are in the realm of science and engineering, and here we are very definitely in the realm of THE answer. No one but a dunce would pretend that steam-powered engines are more effective than, or as effective as, a combustion engine. The combustion engine is quite simply superior (in terms of performance/effectiveness/power), which is why it dominates the world today. Similarly, there IS a superior way to play a record, and that is the way that most effectively guarantees as close to perfect speed stability in real-world conditions, actually playing a record (and with perfect speed stability comes everything else: bass, SLAM, detail, imaging, gestalt, DYNAMICS, transient response). Hearing an idler-wheel drive next to a belt-drive, one CLEARLY hears the superior speed stability, which shows that the measurements published mean diddly-squat (and that therefore the tests used to achieve the measurements are ineffective/meaningless). Remember, we have come a long long way, and what appeared to be impossible in the begining is now within our grasp (if only we continue and honestly and without fear report in!), the recognition of the idler-drive system, THE system throughout many decades and into the '60s', as the superior system all along!!

Last night I was invited to the audio abode of a serious collector of vintage euqipment, and among the many experiences there, he played old 78s on a Rek-o-Kut Rondine (which despite serious noise emanating from the hockey puck/idler-wheel and traveling across the room was not audible in mono at all) via a vintage tube/Quad ESL57 system, and this turned out to the THE clearest and most audiophile PRESENT and detailed sound of all!! And what struck me apart from the excellent sound quality was the recognizable absolute speed stability and SLAM of the old Rondine/system (I laughed out loud when I heard it!), in many ways, due to the idler system and the fact than in mono no rumble is audible (only in stereo is this picked up), the sound enjoyed by those music lovers of the '40s and '50s was superior to that enjoyed by audiophiles today (excepting those who have returned to the idler-wheel fold). There's life even in those extremely noisy idlers of the distant past, provided they are used for mono recordings and 78s!

The Garrard is a stunning performer, as is the Lenco, and even the rumbly Rek-o-Kuts in mono!, which proves (and will I hope in future) just how incredibly potent and successful in every area of audiophile interest an LP spun on an idler-wheel turntable is, and so Vive la Idler-Wheel!!!!

Hi All,
The stunning arrival of Jean’s latest endeavor prompted some nostalgic waxings for me last night (never a good ingredient for empiricism). But his post today reminded me that this was not so much about “passing the torch”, as about lighting other torches.
Certainly, “For those who can’t afford the moon,” (Grease-bearing 301), the venerable Lenco continues to be the best value option in getting to the music.

New age Lenco tinkerers, practitioners and theorists have not been sitting idle by their idlers while Jean has been honoring UK ancestry. A score of Rheinderspeter’s redesigned Lenco top plates will soon be on their way to experimenters across Europe and North America (including one for our prime host) . These laser cut steel plates will advance on new design territory in motor isolation and speed linkage, as well as deal a deathblow to the inherent weakness of the Lenco’s stock top plate. And this may be just the first run. I know Mike and I plan to use Peter’s steel plate as a template for hand cutting aluminum ones.

Jean’s listening assessment about the Rek-O-Kut Rondine mirrors conclusions that I have come to face over this and Presto’s design: That their thrust plate bearing motors cannot be tamed enough to quiet transmissions for rumble-free stereo play. Maybe Herculean efforts in motor transplants and idler wheel rebuilds to a more supple composition might work, but I’m not sure.

But there is one mono era American idler still left – The Metzner Starlight – and it continues to show promise. It has a 4-pole inductor motor that is quieter and higher cranking than the Lenco’s. Its hybrid puck drive isolates transmission along the motor/spindle/platter path by the very nature of the puck’s composition – rubber. And we all know well how to isolate transmission in the other direction (motor/plate/tonearm).

After kibitzing with a couple of other DIY Metzner owners on another forum site, it became apparent that we all suffered from a stop-you-in-your-tracks design flaw. All our machines had gross platter wobble because the soft platter spindle sleeves had “egged out” over the years. I suggested that a high performance auto shop might offer a solution with pressing in a new sleeve, machined from a hardened valve guide in a line box. Well one of the guys took this baton and ran with it. He got a cooperate machine shop, run by an older gent who recognized the project for what it was and did the deed for $50. So we press out, press in and press on.

- Mario

Hi all, actually, "stunning" might be too strong a word for my simple maple-veneered plinth, but thanks all the same Mario!! It was Willbewill's Spotmat which made the total effect (and I have a white one too), thanks again Malcolm!!

And I signed on for TWO, not one of Reinderspeter's brilliant new Super Top-plates (thanks again for the enormous and perfectionist efforts Peter), one for two tonearms (I would have loved three!), and one with none, for my long-threatened Lenco-Noll project! Can't wait to get my mitts on those, I'll have to clone myself in order to keep up with projects (not that I need any more, as the current iteration of the Giant Lenco - and Giant Garrard - is so far beyond anybody's ken there are simply no words adequate, excepting perhaps Superkalafregilistic!)....(ex-pee-al-i-do-shus).

Yesterday, my Morch/Decca suddenly snapped into focus, giving my RS-A1/Denon DL-103"E" combo a run for its money where beforehand it was but a pale and sleepy imitation. Don't know if the wiring in the UP-4 finally burned-in, or the Decca cartridge is finally burning in, or if it was the superb ca. 1976 Sony TAE-5450 phono stage (and I mean superb: it equals that in the Mighty ARC SP-8, it's the line-stage where the ARC whips it) which finally warmed up (it always takes a few days with vintage Sony stuff) and which I have wired into the ARC SP-8 aux input via tape outputs (effectively using it as a separate phono stage), or perhaps all of the above! When I received the Morch UP-4 as a part-tradies deal, I saw this beautiful jewel-like gem of a tonearm, saw its very sensible construction (tonearm wands of varying masses to match any cartridge and easily swapped) and I PRAYED to the Audio Gods that it be a killer!! Immediately, it killed the Rega RB-300 for speed and detail (but not for PRESENCE or SLAM), and was also more detailed than the SME V.

But then the RS-A1 came along and suddenly the Morch seemed lacking in energy and vigour (not to mention everything else), and I foresaw I might have to sell it (weeping, the Beauty! the Beauty! the Ease of Swappies!). So today with its flowering I am happy to report this is another Giant-Killer of a tonearm, when one considers the company it can keep ($4k tonearms), AND it can handle Deccas, which is no small feat, and good news, as a Decca Super Gold, when happy, is nigh-unbeatable by any MC in the world for detail, SLAM/dynamics large and small, powerful/fast/slamming bass or even imaging, unless like the Decca it is a Direct Scanning type (this doesn't mean that there aren't MCs or MMs which sound warmer or more romantic, or match it in this area or that). But be aware that a Decca is in an entirely different league than a Denon DL-103 (except gestalt and PRaT, and perhaps a certain naturalness), so that the Denon DL-103"E" can match a happy Decca in such a superb tonearm as the Morch speaks volumes for the capabilities of the RS-A1. But no matter, they both now blow my socks off, time now, to do the final set-up of my Garrard (the Dyna is a loaner) and pick a tonearm-cartridge combo for it, then its a Slammin' Christmas!

Anyway, enjoy your respective idlers all, and to the poor belt-drivers out there I wish you a Merry Idler and a Happy New Ear!

Jean and all,
Remember- FDLFUBD!!!!!!!!!!
friends don't let friends us belt drives.
Have a merry-merry Christmas!

Having actually seen Jean’s luscious Garrard 301, I have to stand by the original assessment that it is, in fact, “stunning” - no overstatement about it.

Our afternoon of listening at Jean’s digs, however, was taken up exclusively with Mr. Red which was quite a treat for me. (While Grant aka gjwAudio1 was there too, these impressions are solely mine and he should weigh in with his own take.)

Well, first the journalist in me was so much reduced by the subjective enjoyment of the session that I failed to objectively keep track of what combo was playing what – i.e. the Morch/Decca or the AS-R1/Denon DL-103“E”. But no matter – as this wasn’t a track by track comparison session to dig out the nuanced differences between the two (on which Jean has already reported) – but an audition where both armed combos were given free range to come “on song” by utilizing the Mr. Red based Lenco as a foundation and springboard.

My initial impression (and this will have to be for both arm combos as I was at a loss to discern the difference) was that this was a level of detail that defied the analog sourcing that I was listening to. This was a “digging out” that went beyond crisp/full frequency response and marched right into the field of quick paced timing and rhythm.
Non-analog descriptors came to mind like “attack & decay” – “tight envelopes” and digital “pace”. It was truly a listening experience that would have had many searching for a hidden SACD player. But if one listened carefully, the absence of truncation and clip allowed for a bloom that could only be analog.

For dessert, our amenable host outfitted the golden Morch Unipivot with the Grado Platinum woody. This produced a lush warmth that I was much more familiar with. Detail wasn’t lost, but was simply upstaged by the richness of what one might call a glorious “music hall” sound. The Grado promptly staked out its own turf in a field that would encompass all large ensemble recordings.

For me, there really wasn’t any issue of supercedence between the cartridge/arm combos. Each claimed its own laurel as an analog retriever. Before this session, my audition exposure to “detailed” retrievers was invariably linked to a “clinical” experience. Jean’s set-ups have changed all that. I love my Grados and someday soon, I’ll go Platinum. But I was so enthralled in what I heard from the D&D twins that I’m glad my Lenco plinth can host two arms.

We also were able to apply and test MuMetal on Grant’s Lenco platter in Jean’s system. This, I would call a qualified success. Success, in that it clearly provided a barrier to EMF induced hum on the Decca. Qualified, in that there was some slight hum in the first ¼” to ½” of play arc. This may have been attributed to:
1) That I had previously hammered out some slight ridging in this area. (Hammering, I would later learn, breaks down Mu shielding properties.)
2) The Canadian winter conspired to hamper a glue set-up temperature for an optimal meld to the platter.
3) Jean’s system was able to pick up a diminished “wrap-around” of EMF that I wasn’t able to pick up on my home system.

In the end, this was a wonderful and an all-around educational experience for me: Plumbing the depths of how this seemingly primordial means of recorded music can be retrieved in a magical way into something so full blown. I know there is a scientific explanation for each step along this analog trail – but somehow I can’t shake the notion that wizardry is somehow involved.

-Mario

It was remiss of me to neglect the comments of my wife, JoAnn, who had a chance to listen to Jean’s Mr. Red for about 15 minutes. She has asked me to post this in addendum:
“Everything was so clear. Each instrument stood both separately and in harmony - like a chord where each note can be distinguished. It was a wonderful sound.”
JoAnn, I should add, has become quite adept at spinning vinyl on both my manual Lencos as well as threading up tapes. She rarely plays a CD if there is an analog alternative and acknowledges the “Living Presence” has grown on her. When I prodded recently whether she might be another HoltyHelen in the making, she demurred. “You build it and I will listen.”

Jean, I notice that in the latest pics of your dynamic duo the acrylic part of your footer system seems to be missing(?) Is this a new development?

Also, I have begun to look around for thin marble slabs like the ones you use. What are they and where are they sourced?

Nice report Mario. But inquiring minds want to know why you didnt tie Jean up, stash him in the closet and listen to the 301?

Mike

Hi Mike,

We actually considered what you suggested. However, there were no closets in Jean's realm - only open architecture. Our only options for restraints were 24 ga solid core and duct tape.

- Mario

Ha, I KNEW there were advantages to the new abode!! Thanks for the kind words Mario (AND JoAnn), it was a pleasure to host both you and your wonderful wife, you're welcome to come back anytime, and we'll explore the Caves of the Unknown!

There are only so many hours in a day, so the Garrard had to remain mute for the listening session. And more I would have liked to demonstrate: the unrecognized (except by the fortunate few) Greatness of the AR2ax's (this demonstration included the Pierre Amp matched to the ESS AMT4's), which when paired with the little (but incredibly POTENT) Sony TAE-3130F amplifier (ca. 1966) produces the Kundalini Effect.

Which brings me to speed stability, my constant subject with respect to reproducing music. The ONLY advantage digital media have over analogue sources is speed stability. Since the CD, DVD and SACD players don't have to deal with mechanical drag/brakes, only light/lasers, there is no braking effect and consequently these have a speed stability (piano especially) transient speed and clarity which attracts many audiophiles. This - reaction to the braking effect of the stylus in the groove which causes speed instabilities - is the Achilles Heel of belt-drives, and a fatal one. Properly set-up idler-wheel drives wipe out this digital advantage, so one reaps the benefits of vinyl - higher resolution AND analogue "flow"/naturalness - and wipes out speed instablities, which brings out the missing transient speed and slam, AND brings with it all the information digital loses: air, resonance, decay, PRaT, gestalt and natural musicality, not to mention the actual superior DYNAMICS and BASS (both reach and detail).

Next week I plan to finally finish the Garrard project (which includes the finish), pick out a tonearm/cartridge combo and have it sit there as a semi-permanent addition to my then-three-tonearm/cartridge system (until I have the new design ready, which will have two, perhaps three tonearm boards, more easily done with the Garrard "motor unit" construction).

Which brings me to the platform question Mike: those photos were of early days when the new set-up was not yet finalized. I have since mounted both 'tables on similar platforms, in the case of the Lenco on marble/acrylic, and in the case of the Garrard marble/corian. The easiest source of marble slabs are kitchen supply stores (marble cutting boards) and kitchen cabinet contructors. I would think granite would be as effective, which you could get done at any stone cutters business. As soon as I have finalized the Lenco and Garrard set-ups I will refresh the photos with new pics. I know that one of the tonearm/cartridge combos will be my Heavy-Metal Decca International paired up with the Grado Platinum, which combo is Supernaturally Musical and potent. Vive la Idler-Wheel!!

Oops, forgot to mention Mario's mumetal mod: it works! As already described, the hum (using both Grado and Decca) intensifies just before reaching the platter, then disappears as the cartridge goes over the edge and hovers above the record. A real panacea for those who abhor hum. Having heard it, I will have to so treat my own platter, as I love both the Grados and the Deccas, both the hummiest in the business. Better to apply in a heated environment, instead of outside where the glue freezes up here in the Great White North, yikes!

Cool, Jean. I figured as much re the marble thingies but didnt find anything exactly the same on ebray or Amazon. Sometimes I feel the pinch living in a decidedly un-cosmopolitian geographic area. The post office lady looks at me like I'm Magellian or somebody when I get a package from Taiwan or Germany - :)

Mike

I got myself a Variac voltage regulator and am using this to power a Lenco GL-75 with the Variac plugged into a line conditioner,and the table plugged into the Variac.I am on a 240v 50Hz supply for the mains and have found that the Lenco motor quietens down substantially when I turn the voltage down to around 160V.Has anyone tried this and what are their results?I am sure I am getting a blacker backgound and better audio.

As a proud owner of what I understand was Jean's first Mighty Glass-Reinforced Direct Coupled Giant Lenco, it's past time that I checked in here to express my enthusiasm for this amazing turntable and to thank Jean, and all of you who are involved in the Lenco/idler wheel drive revival.

Here's the bottom line of my initial impression. This turntable - the Black Beauty - with a $150 cartridge is blowing away my former rig that had a $3500 cartridge mounted on a VPI HW-19 MkIV tricked out as close as you can get to the TNT level. I'll need to try other arms and cartridges to get a fuller sense of what this table can do, but there's no doubt that it's huge jump beyond the VPI.

I didn't appreciate until recently that I'm actually a charter member of the idler wheel movement and probably got into it even before Jean did! My first turntable, over 30 years ago, was a Rek-O-Kut. I didn't know an idler wheel drive from a nuclear reactor at that point and was just into music, not equipment. I kept that Rek-O-Kut for nearly 20 years until I came across the audio establishment's magazines and realized that there's this whole world of shiny, modern, expensive, must-be-better equipment out there, and that all of the modern turntables use belt drives. So I finally ditched the Rek-O-Kut and got a VPI HW-19 Junior. My gleaming new turntable looked great, but there was one problem: It didn't sound as good as the old Rek-O-Kut! So I upgraded it all the way to the Mk IV+ level and put on an SME V arm and a Koetsu cartridge. That did beat the Rek-O-Kut.

I must confess, at that point, for a time, I actually did believe in the superiority of belt drives. But, thanks to my friend Dave Pogue, Jean, and tuning in on Da' Thread, I
rediscovered the virtues of idler wheel technology. Misled by the audio establishment, I wandered off the True Path for a while, but it was just a temporary diversion. I'm back!

I suspect many of us have taken this trek from idler wheel to belt drive back to idler wheel. It's a lot like the trek from vinyl to CDs back to vinyl. Whatever the latest fad or audio dogma, there's just no substitute for running the experiment, hearing for yourself, trusting your own judgment. Onward Lenco Renegades!

The same result, reduced vibration with lowered operating voltage, was observed in the Garrard 301 and 401 many years ago.

Something like 90 volts or so (in the USA where 117 volts is nominally "Normal") was generally considered optimal.

That is very interesting - a standard trick for the Garrards. For 120V/60hz I am planning to try this as I will be setting up my 401 with the Lencos when I finally get unpacked enough to finishing the woodworking.

Mike

Hi Stefan, this is a traditional mod as well for the Garrards, with the same reported results as you report. However, many of those who have tried this tweak and who love the idlers for their great dynamic power report as well a consequent loss of dynamics with the lowered noise-floor. Of course, this is dependent on how audible this is in a given system: if not in yours (some find it an across-the-board improvement), then it is not an issue. To me anyway, idler-wheel dynamics are Sacred and not to be diminished in any way, and since I so build my systems to maximize speed/impact/dynamics/rhythm, these types of mods (over-damping as well) audibly reduce the dynamics. While adjusting the motor for minimal noise by taking it apart and orienting the motor-core is difficult, and adjusting the nose-screw, it accomplishes the same thing without reducing torque/dynamics. Direct Coupling further eliminates the noise to well below that of high-end belt-drives, while increasing the dynamics, focus and speed. Do you hear any diminution of dynamics or bass impact with this tweak?

Up here the gremlins went on a rampage and took out my SP-8, Pierre Amp, and even my beloved little Sony amp is acting up, so I am now using my TAE-5450 preamp with the rebuilt TIP-modded Dynaco ST-120, and decided to set up my very vivacious Athena Technologies speakers for the Christmas season, as they get to the heart of the music in a way very few speakers do (PRaT, dynamics, easy listenability with decent detail and imaging combined this designer's particular talent). I was amazed at just how detailed and beautiful-sounding even this humble system is. When rebuilt/restored and TIP-modded the Dynaco ST-120 is indeed a very serious little amp, and I'm going to try it with my more-serious KEF Reference 103.2s to see just how good it is. I just LOVE these vintage gems, they are so much fun!! Have fun likewise all, this type of fun just seems so appropriate over the holidays!

I dialed-in the Garrard 301 with the fabulous Dynavector 507 MKII tonearm, and even with my cheap little Satin HO MC the level of refinement and detail was amazing. The Dynavector is truly one of the Great Tonearms (but with a BIG price-tag), and shows that when properly set up the Garrard (in this case Giant Direct Coupled CLD birch-ply/MDF plinth) is indeed a very refined and delicate retriever, while preserving that astonishing idler SLAM and BASS, in fact just like the Iron Fist in a Velvet Glove Lenco! There is no high-frequency hash of the sort so often reported in the press in the past (they had to find/create/invent fault somewhere or simply throw in the towel and admit belt-drive was a mistake and very definitely inferior).

Anyway, hope you're all having some fun!!

I don't hear a negative effect in the bass or dynamics.I did tune the motor early on when I almost lost that little nose-screw too.I believe that the "flywheel" effect of the 9LB platter driven at speed accounts for most of the control of the Lenco and the idler may not be that heavily relied on.Once the speed has been set with a strobe it seems to stay on speed much as before.There is not as much torque as before of course which you can feel with your fingers,but as I stated the speed is fine.I used a stethoscope to judge the best place to set the Variac to where the motor seemed to "quiet-down".At full voltage the motor does seem to vibrate and shake a little too much.The Variac eliminates this motor shaking,which seems to be obviously correctable.

It just occurred to me.... that there in the States and Canada you only run on 110V 60Hz so your vibration floor would be normally lower than mine at 240v 50Hz?My motor runs pretty fast to begin with so taking the voltage down I am now on a par with you?The speed can be regulated just turning the Variac knob as well I noticed,so the Lenco does respond immediately to a voltage change.

Sudden rush of ideas here!!! The motor in the States and Canada is the same except for the spindle right? So I could actually take the 240v model down to 90v or so and have an extra quiet motor,although I lose all that torque,makes for an interesting experiment I think.

Bolson,
Thanks for your impressions and historical perspective. I know of 2 fellow audiophools in my area who have dumped their expensive belt-drives. They simply cannot believe their ears when they hear a Lenco with a simple tonearm and decent, inexpensive cart.
It would be fun and interesting to hear from more who have come from the darkside!
Enjoy!

Stefanl

I believe that both the US/Canada and European models can be used with either 120V or 240V just be changing the wiring connections, probably equivalent to a universal power transformer that can be used for 120V or 240V AC by connecting the windings in parallel or series. The difference is in the rotors for 50 Hz versus 60 Hz. If your motor is wired for 240V then dropping your voltage to 160V would be the equivalent of dropping a US/Canada wired motor to 80V. Dropping yours to 90V would actually be like dropping the US/Canada to about 45V.

Also, I don't think that the 120V model is any quieter than a 240V motor, because the wiring connections are different so that the power the motor puts out is the same. Again, it's like whether you connect the windings of a universal power transformer for a 120V or 240V supply, the power output doesn't change.

Hi Stefanl, brilliant analysis, the higher voltages in Europe would make a difference and would account for the greater noise/problems of both Lencos and Garrards over in Europe! But I do recall my own Lenco was very silent when I was running it in Helsinki, there must be some variation in motor quality/set-up/optimization. But I caution you against relying too much on the flywheel effect of the brilliant Lenco platter, as the belt-drivers as well rely too much on simple momentum to overcome the braking action of stylus force drag. The trick would be to "push the envelope": reduce the voltage no more than absolutely necessary and no more, find the right balance.

The superior bass and transients and dynamics of all idlers relative to their belt-drive cousins is due to greater torque, and given the much greater mass of many of the high-end belt-drive platters and consequent momentum relative to the Lenco and Garrard platters, this points the finger at the more powerful motors and more potent drive system (rubber wheel vs flimsy slippy-stretchy belt) of the idler-wheel drives, which like a bulldozer (controlled by a prima donna ballerina at the top of her game) simply plows (with absolute finesse) through the stylus's attempt to stop the platter. Since many do in fact report a lessening of dynamics, dramatic colour and PRaT when reducing the voltage in Garrards, then in some systems reducing voltage is audible, and is therefore happening even if not audible in other systems. Just like a dropping noise floor (increased plinth mass married to Direct Coupling), which is not audible by a lessening of noise but instead by an increase in fine detail and clarity, so an increase in motor power/torque is audible by finer gradations of transients and micro-dynamics, and timing issues as well as more and more delicate resolution of bass detail and focus. Of course, given the higher voltages in Europe, you probably have more leeway over there. I'll have to try this experiment some day, but given that over here in my system and those I've tested it in motor noise is not audible (nor from the Garrards I've played with), for the moment anyway it'll have to wait, and I'll rely on the reports of others on this side of the pond.

Last night I set up a Benz Micro ACE cartridge on a fellow's Garrard 301/MAS 282 set-up (the first grease-bearing one under my system, which I rebuilt for a fellow around the corner from me a ways back), and the sound was truly beautiful and musically-potent! I've heard the ACE before and was struck by how musical it was then, and it was confirmed last night. So add the ACE to the roster of truly musical MCs: it has a beautiful balanced sound, lots of high-end MC detail, it swings and has PRaT, and in addition dynamics and an ineffable musicality, flying straight to the heart of the music, whatever the genre. Classical made me sentimental and soft-hearted when it demanded, and rock made me want to rock. Another screaming bargain, a classic in the making if justice is served, as MCs which are this musically effective are thin on the ground. The reviewers nailed this one, as to a man they report the same thing, Benz outdid themselves with this little beauty! I'll be borrowing it later on to test in my system and report further.

This also confirms the greatness of the little MAS 282 tonearms, and to those out there who have them I urge you to get better tonearm cables, as the stock one seriously drags down its potential. This tonearm has superb bearings, and an almost supernatural way with retrieving dynamics micro and macro. I look forward to re-setting it up on Mr. Red to rediscover just how good this little gem is, as the ACE had the very same amazing lightning way with dynamics large and small my Grado Platinum had when it was mounted on it.

Having experimented a little further and thought about it some more,I found a couple of things.There are 3 or 4 types of Lenco motor,one meant for 110 v only and which is not switchable.The 110v appears the same but has a green material in the windings and without a little diagram showing the way to connect 220v on the connecting strip which is normal.The other motor has no material on the windings and has a diagram showing how to connect for either 110v or 220v with connecting shorting joiners on the strip.European models could be 110/220v 50Hz wheras U.S models could be (with a different spindle) 110/220v 60Hz or 110v 60Hz only.I actually have a model marked for 110V/240v 50Hz but I think it is a standard European model now "marked" for 240V.Looking at the literature on Vinyl Engine and sorting the different info it seems that the Lenco motor is actually 220v(110) 50Hz at 15VA in stock form but one piece for the GL-75 gives a 200 to 240v rating on the motor for example.You could then run the Lenco at 200v,220V or 240 at least and still be in spec.So extrapolating,running at 90v in the U.S is still quite respectable.There is a speed drift problem that comes into play if the torque is too low but I have seen reports on the Garrard as being ideal at around 170/180v.Anyway it seems some tweaking can be done keeping an eye on the speed drift.

I have found this statement in an old Lenco manual for he GL-75."The L-75 is designed for use with 220v 50hz AC mains but can be supplied with a switchable motor for use on 115 145 and 225 V mains.This seems to indicate that the Lenco people thought the power supply was important.If my Lenco is then "marked" for 110V/240V maybe thats what I should run it at instead of ones I have seen "marked" for 110/220v for example-any thoughts?

Sorry Stefanl, other than what I've written I can't say anymore, as I haven't had a noise problem to deal with. That said, looking at the logic of the Ladder of Importance - i.e. that the source is most important as losses here cannot be made up further up the chain (which is why it is turntable first, then tonearm, then cartridge) - the whole debate about DD, belt-drive and idler-wheel drive demonstrates that first and foremost within the turntable is the drive system. And behind the drive system is the motor (the various motor improvements and mods, DC vs AC and so on)! This is doubly true of the motors in idler wheel drives and DDs, as these are directly (DD) or near-directly (idler) coupled to the platter. So a lot of attention must be paid to, and in the case of both the Lencos and the Garrards, HAS been paid to, the superbulosity (TM ;-)) of the motors.

Given that the motors in these superb idlers are indeed themselves superb, I believe anyway that as little as possible must be done which might interfere with the drive system/motor. Also, to me, Dynamics are Sacred, which is one reason I always caution against overdamping. And the further I go the more I am against any type of damping, period. The problem with damping materials (Sorbothane, Dynamat, sand, lead) is that they do not differentiate between noise and music, thus, when damping noise and vibration, they also damp dynamics and detail (though a balance can be struck in which enough noise is suppressed to allow detail to emerge more clearly). I no longer use Dynamat or any other noise reduction, other than the plinth itself, which is "hard" and yet soft enough to absorb noise (especially with Direct Coupling) and not reflect it as stone would (aaahh the humble simplicity of good'ol wood), and glass epoxy, which controls vibration by stiffening the top-plate and is a form of CLD in its own right to cancel out noise (but does not damp in the classical sense like Dynamat, Sorbothane, sand or lead). Now, Direct Coupling is difficult to achieve without damaging the signal/music, but if done correctly, it is all positives (great reduction of noise drained into the plinth, even inaudible noise, meaning the noise floor drops precipitously) and no negatives (no loss of PRaT, bass or other sonic information). With the reduction of noise comes much greater focus, separation of instruments, transparency, speed, transients, bass detail, midrange, imaging, etc.....effectively a BIG step up the ladder.

Similarly dynamics. Do as little to reduce the torque of the motor as possible (effectively, I believe do nothing to reduce torque), and the extra (even inaudible) dynamics will be heard as finer and finer micro- and macro-dynamics, which means being able to hear more detail, even better transparency and separation, faster transients which allows better differentiation and better decay/tonality, and so on.

When one combines Direct Coupling, Glass Reinforcement and the total torque of the drive system with the elimination of all damping materials (in the classical sense of noise suppressors like Sorbothane and lead) except the plinth itself, one achieves (especially with a Giant plinth which magnifies all these attributes thanks to the Direct Coupling) a level of reproduction which must be heard to be believed, and even then is hard to believe!! This is because the idler-wheel drive system is then unfettered (from noise as well), freed and allowed to accomplish the task to which it is set: spin the record at as precise a 33 1/3 while actually playing a record as it is possible to do. Spinning a perfect speed, one reaps the 10X the information which actually lies encoded in those licorice grooves, while eliminating the one area in which digital media have a musically-significant advantage (over belt-drives anyway): speed stability.

So, I've essentially eliminated damping materials, left the motor to spin utterly unfettered thus maximizing torque, and relied on both motor tuning and Direct Coupling (to the largest plinth practicable) in order to eliminate/reduce noise. Furthermore, I LIKE the original Lenco top-plates, their shape and their knobs, and so by using glass-epoxy to replace damping materials (reinforcement and CLD of actual damping), I have aimed to preserve some of the looks/style/ambiance, while Funkifying a dated design. All of this thinking has been combined in my latest project, as well as a return to some simple fun in design in the Burled Funky Lenco I have just inserted under my "system". Please excuse yet another plinth, last one for a long time promise....except the multi-armed and also-funky Garrard plinth I am planning for myself soon!

Finally, some observations on the Lenco vs Garrard: the Garrard has a "fatter" bass than the Lenco, and sounds more big-hearted and colourful/dramatic as opposed to the apparently more accurate and precise Lenco. But. The RS Labs sound stupendous on the Lenco, but it has one weakness (relative to tonearms which are superb in this respect): the bass seems slightly overdamped (depending on recording). But mount the RS Labs on the Garrard and suddenly this changes, and the RS Labs bass is perfect in every way and all snicks into place with perfection, detail, imaging, dynamics, etc (this with the Denon DL-103"E" anyway). Similarly, some tonearm/cartridge combos simply sound better (within the context of my system) on the Lenco. The more I listen, the more I think I'll mount my RS on the Garrard and leave it there. All this to say, that no matter how superb and high-flying any record spinner, synergy issues will always come along to confuse us (as mysterious phenomena beneath our radar work beneath the surface, forcing us to rely on our ears in order to optimize). So keep an ear out and optimize your respective systems!!

And just in case some want to read between the lines and jump to the conclusion that belt-drive also only need optimization in order to compete: only if you want to improve an inferior system. A properly set-up quality idler-wheel drive is superior in every way, not just some, to their sad belt-drive brethren. As I always say to those who want to preserve their politically-correct philosophy and try to force me to "admit" it is a matter of taste: "Sure, if by matter of taste you mean a great deal more detail, dynamics, bass, imaging, tonality, gestalt and PRaT." Which is why we are now in the $100K belt-drive league (and climbing) as logically, why are such extremes necessary in order to extract such performance, if not the problem of making an inferior system perform up to the heights now being reached with more effectiveness/lesser cost by DDs and idlers?

And btw, idlers are also superior to DDs, as their motors spin at much higher RPMs (roughly 1800 RPM), which means that momentum and torque in this case truly does go a long way to eliminating motor speed imperfections (further eliminated by the flywheel-platters), while DDs must depend on complex circuits and electronic tricks to try to eliminate the relatively much-amplified motor imperfections (since they spin at only 33 1/3, being directly driven, thus making the imperfections - all physical systems are imperfect - much more audible). The problem at these very low revolutions is that quartz-locking becomes audible, leading to an unnatural sound very much like that of digital media, dynamically constrained relative to idlers, and dry relative to belt-drives. Idlers are the current champions in terms of superiority of drive systems in the here and now. Vive la Idler-Wheel!! Have a Merry Idler Christmas!!!

So Jean, are you saying that you are no longer using the neoprene to bridge the gap between the bottom plate and plaint (when necessary)?

Mike

No, I still use neoprene to bridge that gap (when necessary), but it is not an active killer of vibrations (including musical vibrations) like Dynamat or Sorbothane, or sand and lead shot (lead sheet is better, as it is relatively solid and inert and I may experiment further with this material, while lead shot is too active), and the Lenco loves it (as it does its own original rubber mat). Let's put it this way: in the absence of Direct Coupling and the glass mod, Dynamat is far more effective at damping out vibration/noise and improving the overall sound than rubber sheet, which has little effect. But, once Direct Coupling is done, then Dynamat and such-like materials/active vibration killers are no longer necessary, and become a liability, sapping both dynamics and detail and other types of information, and it is better to go for the glass mod and relying more on the plinth itself.

This week I will be getting down to brass tacks and finalizing both my Lenco and my Garrard for more impressions of their differences, if any. What with differing platter metals, platter mats, and so on, all conclusions must be taken with a grain of salt and accepted as ball-park sort of general impressions. So far, all I can say is that in terms of actual information retrieval/raw detail, they are on an even footing.

The Curse is partially lifted and my little Sony Powerhouse amp is working fine again, so my Christmas system consists of the Sony TAE-5450 preamp (while my ARC is in the shop being refreshed with new caps), Sony 3130F amp (Mario would have LOVED this one!), and ESS AMT4 speakers, which are still the overall reigning champs - along with the AR2ax's! Have fun all!