I would skip DAC and go straight to all-in-one network streamer. Too many things can go wrong between streamer and DAC unless they are from a single manufacturer using proprietary connection.
Your choice, in addition to Bricasti, should include Linn (pioneer in network streaming), Naim (catching up in the last few years), dSC (top dog in DAC but late to the party with network streaming), Lumin (started llife as Taiwan knockoff of Linn that sounded worse), Ayre (genius at designing old-world digital, but don't have in-house know-how on network streaming), Esoteric (sounds like dSC, same issue with dSC and late to network streaming). Did I forget anyone?
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@thinman2 Both are excellent choices. I've heard both, and owned the Denafrips Terminator. Denafrips has an active FaceBook page and we have a thread here on the forum: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/denafrips-dac-owner-impressions-feedback-general-discussion-queI disagree on the point that "Too many things can go wrong between streamer and DAC unless they are from a single manufacturer using proprietary connection." My experience has found otherwise. @chesebert has a solid list in his above post. Within his choices, the Lumin X1 stands out (in my opinion) as an ~ all in one option. Another option to add to chesebert's list: an audio friend of mine is considering the Merging+NADAC Both the X1 and Merging (new) are a bit above your 10K budget. Since each eliminates a few components, they may apply... For reference, my Denafrips Terminator system chain was: Small Green Computer > Sonore Signature Rendu SE > Terminator I replaced the Terminator (as well as the Sonore and my Pre) with the T+A SDV 3100 HV recently. |
He forgot the obvious....MSB. And Esoteric doesnt sound like DCS..notice he wrote DSC??? Clueless |
riaa, you are correct: MSB is an obvious choice. However, it (configured) is likely outside of the OP’s budget. |
Just get any DAC you want that takes USB and connect to the Nucleus you don't need a network streamer. If you're planning on getting rid of the Nucleus then you would need one. If you want to move the Nucleus all you need is a roon bridge to connect to any DAC you're interested in. |
@thinman2 I have not heard the Denafrips but I have the latest Bricasti M3 with Ethernet bridge; I recently setup a Roon Rock on top 8th gen i7 NUC following Roon recommendations for every component; I love it. The Rock cost about 750 bucks all in; displaced my former InnuOs Zenith Mkiii; if you are using a DAC with UsB unfortunately you need to spend a good deal to get best audio performance, so in that case InnuOs or similar quality. I can’t recommend strongly enough just going with Ethernet renderer based dacs; Bricasti is a great US company and has excellent dealer and support network should u ever need anything.
Good luck! |
MSB was left out because they don’t have an all in one network streamer - potential degradation of signal with digital interconnect.
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Cheesebert they sure do. My former msb discrete had an Ethernet renderer. |
@dpac996, did you happen to compare the M3 with the M1SE?
The M3 + LAN streamer looks to be priced similarly to what a used M1SE with the streamer installed goes for. I'm curious how the two compare sound wise...
Cheers |
@dpac996 my bad. Looks like MSB is going modular now. Also looks like they changed owner a few years back. How is their latest DAC? |
Get any DAC that you like and pair it with a Sonare xxxRendu model. I use the microRendu. I will need a second one soon and will get the opticalRendu for ROON Only, for under $1K. This will give you state of the art streaming. You can also use a ratty old noisy computer stored anywhere in your house. There is more to this but it is not difficult to setup.
A lot of people pooh pooh using a regular computer on an audio system saying it is old school. I would never take my computer out of my system. It is not in the same room as the system.
BTW - I still think most DACs have a better USB input over Ethernet RJ45, such as the $13K Mola Mola Tambaqui. Only DAC that I have heard people using the Ethernet is the Lumin DAC, especially the X1 and its Fiber optical input (not to be confused with Toslink). |
@yyzsantabarbara Not my experience but ymmv; Ethernet has consistently been the better choice. USB is a flawed interface for high end digital but we are stuck with it. |
Thanks everyone. I am leaning toward the Bricasti Design M1 SE with LAN Network Streamer . MSB is nothing short of revolutionary and its modular componentry is probably the solution to the rapidly moving digital technology. I suspect the price for now is out of my budget. I would appreciate some advice on how to set up the Bricasti. Would I use the Roon Nucleus? Would I need any other components? I need basic step by step which is probably which is probably elementary for most. |
You still need a Roon core which is on your Nucleus. The Nucleus can be anywhere in your house as long as it is connected to your LAN. I'll explain how I would do it, there are other ways but to me this is pretty simple. I would place the Nucleus close to my router, it gets the PC which is what the thing is away from the stereo gear. Attach the Bricasti to the ethernet CAT cable then connect the Preamp to the Bricasti analog outs by RCA or XLR. Make sure the Nucleus and Bircasti on on the same network. I'm not sure how you control Roon but I use a Tablet which is on the same network. Open your Roon app and make sure you can see everything and make any adjustments you want. You shouldn't need anything else the Bricasti is Roon ready has ethernet and a DAC. There are a lot of filters and settings in both Roon and the Bricasti it's dealers choice as to what you do with them. |
@dpac996 totally agree. Well implemented ethernet DAC is in another league compared with USB and you don’t need all the band-aid solution to make USB work well.
I think Linn had this whole thing figured out over 10 years ago. I still use my 10 yr old Klimax DS all the time. It’s not as good as the latest DS with Katalyst DAC but it’s good enough that would allow me to enjoy the music without thinking about gear.
To be fair when I listen to DS Katalyst I get the “holy sh%t” moment quiet often. |
djones51. I almost get it. My entertainment center has 4 CAT 5 ethernet cables hardwired to my router. Connect the Bricasti to the internet via one of the ethernet CAT 5 cables. That is the streamer and the DAC. I would probably use XLR balanced connections from the Bricasti to the Pass Labs xp30 line stage preamp. I control the Nucleus with an I pad mini purchased specifically for that purpose. Currently I have the Nucleus connected to the internet via one of the ethernet CAT 5 connections to the router. I replaced the wall wart power supply on the Nucleus with a Farad Power supply. I am still a little fuzzy on how the Bricasti accesses the Roon as a Roon Core? This is a little over my head: "I would place the Nucleus close to my router, it gets the PC which is what the thing is away from the stereo gear." If PC refers to personal computer I wasn't planning on using a personal computer in the system. Initially I plan on only streaming Tidal. Thanks for trying to explain. |
The Nucleus is a computer that's what I was referring to. As long as everything is on the same network it should work. This isn't exactly correct but the easiest way to view it is the Roon core on the Nucleus is your database that accesses the music either on a NAS, hard drive, Tidal, radio stations etc.. and stores the metadata, the Bricasti is your endpoint where the Nucleus sends the stream. The Bricasti takes the stream, converts the digital to analog and sends it on to the preamp. Your iPad is the control center where you pick your music to play make any adjustments to Roon. |
If your Roon server is not located near your DAC, then an ethernet connected DAC will have the advantage of not requiring a separate streamer. If it is located near the DAC, then I don't see that an ethernet connected DAC has much advantage over a USB connected DAC (assuming the DAC does a good job handling the USB connection).
With modern DAC implementations, both are asynchronous interfaces, with the DAC controlling all the timing. Some DACs do a poor job of isolating the noise from the interfaces, so you have to be somewhat careful with this, but the Denafrips Terminator that you are considering has an excellent USB interface that buffers and reclocks the data.
The main thing you have to be concerned about is noise on the USB connection being introduced into the DAC. I think you'd probably be quite happy with the Nucleus (using a good linear power supply) connected directly to the Terminator with a good USB cable, but you could always add something like the SOtM tx-USBultra or Denafrips Gaia between the Nucleas and Terminator if you wanted to make sure you were getting the purest signal possible.
I haven't heard the Bricasti - it could be an excellent DAC. I have a Terminator and I'm quite impressed with it. |
@ddafoe I did not compare the M3 with the M1SE, but my dealer did and said that the latest version of M3 has a change to the main board that results in better sound over M1 (I think both flavors of M1); This assumes the fielded M1's have their original hardware.
@chesebert I had the MSB Discrete for a few months with both power supplies. At that time I had slightly different speakers than I do now so it's not a totally fair comparison (had Discrete with Dynaudio Confidence 30, now I have CF50); The discrete is an excellent DAC. I do think it faces very stiff competition from the M3 however, especially when you factor in the M3 is 50% less in price. I will not say one beats the other; Both are pretty awesome DACs and likely up there with state of the art sound in the price range. MSB performs the conversion from digital domain to analog via discrete R2R ladder, and the Bricasti does it with DSP and ADI 1955 multibit sigma-delta modulator and uses a very sophisticated patented direct digital synthesis (DDS) clock generator.
I can tell you the M3 puts a huge smile on my face as it the portrays emotion and soul of the musical event in new ways to me. I don't recall any other digital component I've had in my listening environment having quite this effect on me before. I go by this as my yardstick, not lab measurements or what is better on paper, or what costs more. Cost generally is a factor yes, but sometimes there are those products that go way beyond their price point and are real head-scratchers. The Bricasti M3 performance to cost ratio is a game changer in my book;
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I believe this new Bricasti main board is available for the M1 now too...or soon. |
@dpac996 I feel like this generation of high-end DAC/streamers are really converging in terms of being almost indistinguishable from high-end turntables. I have heard the Naim ND555 and have Linn ADS Katatlyst and they both sound extremely good, like high-end table.
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There is an MSB Analog DAC here on Audiogon. Add the network streaming/Renderer module, and you're still below the $10k mark.
Even though it's discontinued, it is still a fantastic DAC, and fully modular/upgradable.
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@chesebert i'm afraid to hear a high-end turntable setup, lol; I have never went down that path for better or worse. I do agree with you about digital streaming. I've been at this since 2007 when I first started messing around with Squeezeboxes and DACs; Last year was mega experimentation with lots of different DACs and transports; My current solution -- Roon ROCK core connected to "A" side of EtherREGEN, "B" side feeding the M3, is a wonderful experience.
I did play around with the M3 digital filter settings and find I like the linear vs the minimum phase. I am stunned by how much sheer performance 44.1/16 bit contains.
Cheers and enjoy the music!
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@dpac996 Are you still using USB? I would get the network module and enjoy the much more robust and error free TCP/IP network. Note you will want shielded cable (cable and RJ45 connectors all need to be shielded - any generic Cat7 or better cable should work) to ensure you have a Faraday cage at the DAC side to keep out all the noises. So even though you have a cable that's connected to your DAC/network render, your unit is actually electrically decoupled from the router/switch.
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Ive noticed it mentioned a few times that there is a problem with USB what exactly is the problem? |
I've never heard of problems with the USB port but many say Ethernet SQ is better. |
Many users think USB introduces noise
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@chesebert I have been using the M3 with the ethernet module; I used the USB input as well and prefer ethernet (sounds better);
@djones51 Over the past 24 months with numerous USB Dacs, streamers, servers, USB enhancement devices and cables, I have proven to myself that USB is not an ideal interface for audio streaming-- sure it works and can sound good, but in very high performance, high resolution systems, it's my opinion/belief/experience that USB is inferior to a DAC with a competent ethernet renderer. Just one man's experience chiming in to fellow enthusiasts, as always, ymmv.
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