I have reconsidered my post above. Forget about Schiit amps with Maggies. There is not enough power and not enough headroom with them. Of the two, definitely get Bryston. Period.
Bought a pair of Magnepan LRS. Should I buy a Schiit Vidar or Bryston 3B-ST?
Has anyone heard both? I plan on travelling so small form factor matters to me but I'd like to stay with class ab, and balanced connections. I like the idea of having monoblocks with the Schiit when I get the money, and I've had good experiences with the brand. (Owned a Saga, a Mani, and a Jotunheim twice) but Bryston has the name recognition. I'm also concerned that upgrade fever would be relentless with the 3B-ST until I got the new and very expensive 3B3.
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I went maggy for 20 years , their plant is 5 miles from me. During that time I had about ten amps , Best were Belles . Van Alstine was good as well .10 miles from me . Both Amps were over 200 w . Both were STEADY by design . Those talking about maggy being cut off on top .Rock is made cut for radios in cars .Rock is money, Jazz and Classical is more music .
Today , I would look at a D as well ,bel canto has good reviews, about 10 miles from me .
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I have a pair of Vidar amps that I tried to pair with LRS... if I run mono, 4 ohms is NOT STABLE.. AMPS WILL GET RED F-ING HOT and stereo/1-amp is not enough to work any better than just OK ..Amps go into protect if u push them for more than 1 hour in mono. Just do urself a favor & get a higher end Emotiva amp or a class-D that's good quality and w/ lots of current. My Yamaha 2 ch quite honestly receiver does a better job driving LRS vs Vidar and does not get too hot.. Very disappointing. I have now owned several items from Schiit, all of which did not live up to hype/reviews IMHO. Decent build quality as far as form-factor goes, but that's about it. |
I’ve been driving the LRS with a Vidar amp for a few months now and the amp has been excellent. If I really crank the volume the amp may go into protection mode but I have no desire for extreme volume. That’s not what maggies are for. As for sound quality a previous post here which stated that Bryston will "sound better" is nonsense.Vidar sq and Bryston sq are exactly the same. Correctly designed high-quality power amplifiers, when not overdriven, do not vary in sound quality. |
To echo what cavy said, maggies want high current capacity but would add wattage sufficient for the room size. When I had a 20x30 room, a modified Hafler DH200 (100W) was "sufficient" but a bigger amp would have been nice. Now in a 12x12 room I have 1W of class driving the 1.7's "sufficiently", can't even use the Hafler, feels like its "shouting" at me even at normal volumes, looking at 25W class A amp to replace the Hafler. |
Aerasonableman, Don't get suckered into the game of high powered amps. Yes the Maggies do need a high current amp with sufficient power to drive them but just because you have a 100 watt amp does not disqualify them from playing the Maggies. It all depends on your amps power supply. I have Prima Luna Premium Dialogue HP amp rated at 85 watts per channel with KT 120 tubes. This amp has huge output transformers that control the bandwith, so it doesn't matter if you have 100 or 1,000 watts your only going to use probably 5 watts. |
Areasonableman, Those toroids are small value chokes and are probably NOT part of the power supply, though they could be. More importantly, broken as they are, they will NOT work properly and need to be replaced. I wouldn't bother with much listening until they are fixed. To work properly they rely on a continuous toroid iron ring. If that ring continuity is broken it will not work correctly. Who knows if it was UPS or some other cause, but GET THEM FIXED! |
Just hooked up my LRS to a 4BSST and a BP20 with MPS-1 and wow. Rocking the house, the bass is there I mean not 20 hz obviously but enough to satisfy without the REL subs I was using before. It's a big room, I'm using a "knock out" side with the coat closet to create this bass effect. Perhaps not as "sweet" as the Conrad Johnson with top of the line NOS Mullard tubes from Uncle Kevin, but I do like my Bryston sound and quiet background. |
Hello areasonableman, I agree a Bryston would be a good option. Based on my knowledge and experience, The Class D Audio 470 will be about equally as powerful as the Brystons but will be more detailed, have better perceived bass response although a bit exaggerated due to a higher damping factor, have lower measured distortion levels, have a noticeably lower background noise level, better dynamics and will have a more neutral overall presentation. However, the Brystons by comparison will impart a 'warm flavoring' to everything played through it that many seem to enjoy. In other words, the 470 will be more accurate and the quality of the recording will not be masked in any way. If you're listening to a bad recording, it will not be as obvious when amplified by the Brystons. If possible, I suggest you listen to both to determine which overall presentation you prefer. If you prefer the warmer less accurate overall presentation, this can also be achieved with the choice of preamp you pair with the 470 amp. In general, tube preamps will impart varying degrees of warmth depending on the brand, model and exact tubes utilized; solid state preamps will generally impart less warmth and are more accurate, although there are exceptions to this general guideline with both preamp designs. Tim |
Usually with Magnepan, the more power the better, but current is less critical than most so less beefy high power amps may work quite well. I had a Carver m4.0t amp (tube amp like SS design), 360w/ch into 8 ohm, not much more into 4, that matched with my Magnepans better than most. Not so much with other more power and current hungry speakers, much as would be expected with most higher output impedance tube amps. The Bryston is a good amp and more then twice as powerful I believe.....I would choose the Bryston. |
Hello areasonableman, Those two 'wheels' are small toroidal transformers, which are part of the amp's power supply. If one of those was not functioning properly on most class D amps, I believe the amp's internal monitoring circuits would cause it to shut itself down and flash some sort of default warning light. If the amp is functioning normally, everything should be fine. But if you want to make certain, I'd recommend emailing your question to Class D Audio in California and ask. The owner and amp designer, Tom Roth, usually responds himself and fairly quickly. He's a very nice guy, very knowledgeable and helpful. Here's the link: https://classdaudio.com/contact/ Tim |
@noble100 in front of the heatsinks, between the 4 small bronze capacitors there are what I can best describe as as small silver wheels with one continuous wire wrapped around them. I was suspicious when I first picked up the amp and heard something moving around in it, but I figured it was slightly old and may be fine. |
Whoops messed up the link while editing, here it is: https://imgur.com/a/i8c4gLf Hello areasonableman, I must be missing something in your linked photos because I can't identify anything that appears cracked. Can you please be more specific in your description of the part that is cracked? Just for your reference, the silver/gray section in the middle of your 1st photo is a small aluminum heat sink for dissipating excess heat from the amp and, thereby, cooling it. But I don't see any cracks on the heat sink. Can you describe the crack in relation to its direction from the heatsink? Such as just in front or just in back of the silver/gray heatsink, etc.? Also, how did you discover that UPS damaged something? Thanks, Tim |
Whoops messed up the link while editing, here it is: https://imgur.com/a/i8c4gLf |
In an annoying twist of fate, UPS messed up the internals of the amp in shipping. It worked well for a couple hours and then gave up the ghost. https://imgur.com/a/i8c4gL Could someone please tell me what kind of part it is that’s cracked? I’m not proficient in electronics terminology but I’d like to know what I’m looking at to get it fixed. Already have a great guy who fixed my turntable so I’ll go to him again. Impressions while it worked was that the separation and soundstage were the best I’ve heard; not even close. Blasting Deafheaven’s The Pecan Tree made that already massive sounding song sound nothing short of cataclysmic, moving me to very real tears. Roger Water’s Three Wishes was startling, with the Genie’s voice zooming in and out of the edges of the room. Bass definition and detail were fantastic as well, with Primus' Tommy The Cat sounding truly awesome, Les Claypool's bass playing came through with no perceivable blurring of notes at all. The amount of bass isn’t quite what I'm looking for, but I think I can live with it. Bad recordings sounded pretty bad (Daniel Johnston) but I wasn’t surprised about that. Once I get a good phono pre I’ll report back with my decision on whether or not to get a tube linestage, because it’s a little more sterile than I’d like on quiet acoustic recordings, but that might be my DAC. (Grace SDAC Balanced) Basically if my vinyl rig sounds great when I find a used ifi iPhono2, which I’ll use with my Technics SL-10 w/Grado Red2, I’ll start saving for a Schiit Gungnir Multibit. If it’s still a smidge lifeless I’ll start saving for a Schiit Freya+ or if I’m super patient, a Woo Audio WA22. |
Hello dougstat, I’m definitely very interested. I think I’d be satisfied if they just outperform my current Magnepan 2.7QRs. Mine are 6’ x2’ , about 60 pounds and difficult to move one handed into optimum position for music listening(I had a stroke and still can’t use my left arm and hand). The LRS are 4’ x 14.5" and only about 44 pounds. Otoh, mine are 3-ways while the LRS are 2-way. For $650 and a 60-day satisfaction guarantee, I probably should just buy them and give them a good audition. Thanks, Tim |
Hello areasonableman, The Class D Audio SDS-470C is a very good choice for a very good amp at a very reasonable price. It’s got plenty of power to drive the LRS, has balanced and unbalanced inputs and has an accurate and detailed presentation that I’d describe as very neutral; meaning it won’t add or subtract anything from the inputted signals. I understand that, if you had the money, you’d prefer buying and using the class AB Schiit Vidar in stereo or monoblock amp form but I believe you’ll enjoy the LRS with the Class D Audio SDS-470C amp, too. Here’s a link to some info on the 470 amp: https://classdaudio.com/sds-470c-class-d-audio-power-amplifier.html I’m a big fan of class D amps and have used 3 of them to drive my Magnepan 2.7QRs over the past 5 years: A Class D Audio SDS-440-CS stereo amp that currently drives a pair of rear surround speakers in my combo 2-ch music and HT system. An Emerald Physics EM100.2-SE stereo amp that currently drives my center ch speaker in bridged mono configuration. A pair of D-Sonic M3-600-M monoblocks that currently drive my 2.7s. All of these are very good amps. However, I actually agree with you that the class AB Vidar may be a better choice in the long-run than the Class D Audio 470. The reason is the very high Damping Factor of class D amps in general that can be very high, in some cases greater than 1,000. The class AB Vidar has a damping factor of a relatively low 100. Damping factor is a spec that measures how effective an amp is at controlling the movement of a speaker driver (starting and stopping it) or sound transducer such as a planar-magnetic panel. The higher the number, the more control an amp possesses and vice versa. In my experience with all three class D amps, I’d describe their performance on my Magnepans as very good but I perceived the bass performance on them to be exceptionally good, in fact the best bass I had up to then experienced with the rather large 623 sq. inch planar-magnetic bass panel sections on my 3-way 2.7s. I considered the bass on all three as very powerful, detailed, dynamic, perhaps a bit exaggerated and overly taut initially but discovered soon after that these bass attributes were the result of the excessively high damping factors on my class D amps. Even though I admittedly enjoyed the sound of the bass, I soon discovered that the bass was exaggerated, truncated bass note decays and didn’t faithfully reproduce the bass contained on the recordings. I only discovered this because I had the good fortune to purchase an Audio Kinesis DEBRA distributed bass array (DBA) system about 3 years ago. This consists of four 1’ x1’ x 2’ 44lb. subs with 10" long-throw aluminum woofers strategically placed in the room with all subs powered by a 1,000 watt class AB amp/control unit. Once I installed and heard the DEBRA’s powerful, dynamic and detailed bass, that was not exaggerated and didn’t truncate bass note decays, I perceived the bass as more accurate, natural and understood that this system was more faithfully reproducing the bass contained on the recordings. My intent of relating my experiences with class D amps is just to make you and others aware of this tendency with at least my class D amps to exaggerate the bass content. Other than this tendency, I really appreciate and enjoy the accurate and neutral presentation of my class D amps. My intention is not to discourage you or anyone from trying or using good class D amps in their systems. As I’ve stated, I actually enjoyed the exaggerated bass on my Magnepans and I believe others might too. Perhaps the LRS could use a bit of a bass boost since they’re only rated to extend to 50 Hz. If you prefer more accurate bass, you may want to save up for the Vidar. Here’s a REDDIT link to some comments on the Vidar’s relatively low damping factor of 100: https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/7nig0e/schiit_vidar_review_from_the_audiophool/#bottom-... Here’s a link to another positive review on the Vidar: https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/schiit-vidar-amplifier/ Tim |
Noble100, I think you might be disappointing with the LRS. They are going to sound significantly brighter than the 2.7QR and lack the midbass slam that the 2.7s are capable of. I ran the 2.7s for a decade and they were great except for being a bit dark, even in comparison to the .5s 1.5s at the time. Every generation of Maggies has gotten a bit brighter. You may be better off targeting a 1.7, 3.5, or 3.6. I will say after going to the 3.5s after multiple QR designs, I wouldn't go back. The ribbon is more open without sounding harsh. |
Hello esch1238, I've only read the numerous very good reviews on the Magnepan LRS and haven't yet heard them in person. It seems like these would be incredible bargains at $650/pair, especially considering it's described as a full-range quasi-ribbon 2-way speaker. I'm very curious how these speakers perform and sound in the mid-range, treble and sound staging aspects. Esch1238, could you give us your impressions thus far of the sound in these areas with the LRS being driven by your Schiit Vidar monoblocks? I'm also interested with how you have the LRS positioned in relation to your listening seat and the front wall behind them. Here are some questions I hope you don't mind answering: How many feet apart are they? How many feet away is your listening seat? How many feet away from the front wall are they? Do they sound very accurate, detailed and natural in the midrange and treble without any harshness or brightness? Do you perceive their imaging and soundstage as wide and deep with 3D and palpable images? In other words, does it seem like the musicians are in your room or like you are at the venue? Are you using subs to compensate for their limited bass? The reason I'm so interested in the LRS is that I'm currently using a pair of older 2.7QR Magnepans. These 3-way planar-magnetic speakers still sound very good but I realize they're now over 30 years old. The 2.7 QR also have what's described as a quasi-ribbon treble section just like the LRS but I'm thinking, with the LRS utilizing the newest version of their quasi-ribbon, it likely outperforms their version from 30 yrs ago. I believe my current monoblocks would be a good match for the LRS since they sound very natural and have plenty of power, 1,200 watts into 4 ohms, to drive them well just as they drive my fairly inefficient 2.7s very well. I'm also utilizing a 4-sub distributed bass array system that provides very powerful, smooth, fast, detailed, natural and well integrated bass with the very fast 2.7QRs that I believe would perform equally well with the very fast LRS. So, my main concern is with your impressions of their midrange and treble performance. However, I believe the OP, areasonableman, and probably others reading this thread would appreciate a more thorough full-range description of your impressions about how well the combination of the Vidar amps and LRS speakers are performing. Thanks, Tim |
Hello jt35, Yes, you ’re correct and that’s been the advice from Magnepan as long as I can remember. Typically recommending at least a 100 watt class A or AB amp that doubles its power into a 4 ohm load. It’s the main reason that I always used various class AB stereo amps with my Magnepans for years, a variety of 200-400 watt amps such as Adcom, McCormack and Aragon mainly with a tubed VTL 2.5 preamp. They all sounded very good and similar. About 4-5 years ago, after reading many mainly highly favorable reviews on the newer class D amps at that time here on Audiogon and other audio forums, I became curious and bought a Class D Audio SDS-440-CS stereo amp to audition in my system to drive my older pair of Magnepan 2.7QR speakers that are still in very good condition and utilized in my system today. I chose this amp because it was rated at 440 watts into 4 ohms, I’d read many very favorable reviews on it from owners as well as professional reviewers and it only cost $540 at that time. I wasn’t overly optimistic about its performance once it arrived since it was about 1/3rd the size and weight of my current and previous class AB amps that were all very large and weighed up to 85 pounds. This amp did have a traditional linear power supply with a toroidal transformer, and not a switched mode power supply (SMPS) like some other class D amps. but it still only weighed about 15 pounds. Even after installing this little amp and playing it right out of the box without any warm up, however, it was obvious to me that it performed and sounded better than any other amp I had used in my system driving the Magnepans in all the aspects I’m normally concerned with. The background was inky black and dead quiet, I had never heard or felt better bass response and dynamics from the 2.7QRs and didn’t even realize since owning them that they were capable of such powerful, detailed, dynamic and natural bass quantity and quality. I was actually a bit stunned and very pleasantly surprised. The midrange and treble performance of the class D amp was not as significantly superior than my previous class AB amps. Overall in the midrange/treble and imaging qualities, the class AB amps I’ve used have given me the impression of being more similar than different sounding than the class D amps I’ve since used with the exceptions of the class D amps being more neutral in character, slightly more detailed and with a bit better dynamics. In my experiences, both are equally capable of delivering smooth and natural midrange and treble performance with good imaging and without sounding overly harsh or bright. However, I’ve also noticed the class D amps are definitely more revealing and less forgiving on source material that is poorly recorded, mixed or produced. I tend to appreciate this accuracy and honesty but realize some may not. But I’ve also read several good reviews on the Schitt Vidar amp. Steve Guttenburg of the Audiophilliac states on this You Tube video review of the LRS speakers that the Vidar is a good choice to drive the LRS speakers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdqchci3AhU I’m just suggesting that Mr. Reasonable may want to audition a good class D stereo amp or pair of monoblock amps on his LRS speakers before buying a Vidar amp in order to make a better informed decision. Best wishes to the OP, areasonableman, Tim |
areasonableman: " I plan on travelling so small form factor matters to me but I'd like to stay with class ab, and balanced connections. I like the idea of having monoblocks with the Schiit when I get the money, and I've had good experiences with the brand. (Owned a Saga, a Mani, and a Jotunheim twice) but Bryston has the name recognition." areasonableman, There currently are several brands of a certain amp type that are perfectly suited for driving your new pair of LRS speakers or literally any pair of Magnepans. These amps are high powered, stable into 4 ohms and less, have a small form factor, typically have unbalanced and balanced inputs, are relatively inexpensive in both stereo and monoblock forms, have very low distortion, are very accurate, detailed, with background noise levels that are dead quiet, have a smooth and natural frequency response from top to bottom, have exceptionally powerful dynamics, run cool, consume very little electricity and are extremely close to the ideal amp analogy of a 'straight wire with gain'. These ideal amps for your pair of LRS are called, whoa, oh hold on, wait a second. I'm sorry, I just remembered you only wanted to consider class AB amps. Never mind. I'd suggest you try to either live up to your username or change it to 'afoolishman'. Tim |
Several responses. 1. Bryston has been around many years and their amps are known for their rugged build quality, reliability and ability to deliver high current to current hungry speakers. Back in the day, some folks felt they did not sound as good in the highs and upper mids as some "others" that were much more expensive. They sounded great to me with good dynamics. 2. Regarding bridging: a bridged amp will see a 2 ohm load driving a "4 ohm"speaker. Remember a speaker is a reactive load and the real world impedance is all over the place when playing music. Most bridged amps are rated at 8 ohms so this makes for potential problems. You miight ask: Is the amp in question 2 ohm stable? 3. I would not consider any speaker that takes 250 + watts+....and tons of current to play as loud as I want. Why would you consider a Maggie for ear injuring volumn levels? Playing loud is not it's forte! (Ha!) You can drive any number of horn loaded designs to 112 db or more with a good 100 watt amp. This is better than driving a power hungry speaker to its limits and the limits of the power amp. Hope you have a big space. 4. I had Maggie's for years and had no problem driving them with high current amps that delivered "100 watts" at 8 ohms and double that into a "nominal 4 ohm" speakers. One amp, an ARC D-52, played both Dalquests (pretty power hungry!) and Maggies to uncomfortably loud levels. 5. I have dynamic speakers in my main room now because of placement issues as well as available power. Good luck! ENJOY THE MUSIC! |
I own a pair of Magnepan 1.7 speakers. I started out using a pair of Schiit Vidars as monoblocks. For the most part they were fine. If you play classical or jazz at reasonable volumes you should be ok, and mine were ok. But if you play loud rock or fusion jazz you will not have enough headroom and one of my Vidars went into thermoprotection will playing Jeff Beck fusion loud. I sold the Vidars and got a pair of Bryston 4B3s. They are the ticket. Plenty of clean power. No protection issues. Plenty of headroom. Not sure about the 3B3s. But you can find the Bryston 4B3 on the used market frequently at much reduced below MSRP. I would still be using my 4B3s if it not for the amazing deal I got a while ago on a pair of 28B3s. Needless to say, I am set power amp-wise. I’m done. Bottomline: if you want headroom go with Bryston. If you are never going to play your system loud get a pair of Vidars (not one). |
I own a pair of Magnepan 1.7 speakers. I started out using a pair of Schiit Vidars as monoblocks. For the most part they were fine. If you play classical or jazz at reasonable volumes you should be ok, and mine were ok. But if you play loud rock or fusion jazz you will not have enough headroom and one of my Vidars went into thermoprotection will playing Jeff Beck fusion loud. I sold the Vidars and got a pair of Bryston 4B3s. They are the ticket. Plenty of clean power. No protection issues. Plenty of headroom. Not sure about the 3B3s. But you can find the Bryston 4B3 on the used market frequently at much reduced below MSRP. I would still be using my 4B3s if it not for the amazing deal I got a while ago on a pair of 28B3s. Needless to say, I am set power amp-wise. I’m done. Bottomline: if you want headroom go with Bryston. If you are never going to play your system loud get a pair of Vidars (not one). |
I have two Vidars in a secondary system and they have effortlessly driven everything I have thrown at them, including Maggie 1.7. In mono, each Vidar delivers 400W into 8 ohm and even though it is not officially rated for 4 ohm, it will handle just about any 4ohm load. I spoke with Schiit and they told me the Vidar MIGHT go into protection with a 4ohm load if you are playing at extreme volumes. Assuming you are not putting on a concert in your living room, you should be more than safe. If it does trigger though, the Vidar will go into protection mode and will not be damaged. The one idiosyncratic thing is the Vidar only takes balanced connected in mono and only takes SE connections is stereo. Good luck! |
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I'm running mine off a Crown XLS 1502 525 watts into 4 ohms. Surprise surprise they sound fantastic. My Peachtree Nova 150 is serving now as a preamp. I just added a Schiit Modi 3 DAC (out curiousity for $99). Again, believe it or not this combination is sounding awesome with power to spare, big soundstage, dynamic sound. One other comment I believe the Vidar's specification calls for 8 ohms (not 4) when used as mono blocks so you may want to check that. Good luck on finding the right amp that works for you. |
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