Bazmataz, For $300 try Kimber 4TC/4VS High Freq/Low Freq. The next step up might be 4TC/8VS or 8TC/8VS. I've used 8TC/8TC cable before in biwire mode and it's great for the price. I have Kimber Select Cables now, but they cost 10x more. Audio Advisor sells Kimber cable with terminations in custom lengths. |
Dont bother with Biwire Cable.Jumper using the same cable or ust the WBT Jumpers.I have had doulbe runs of cable and found that a single cable with jumpers or with the WBT is just as good as a biwire or double run. |
Tml2. I am curious about bi-wireing but do not understand why it works. Your way would cost me nothing to try. I have 14' single runs of Kimber 4VS with tinned ends that I was planning on taking down to bare wire again. Would it be the same as your suggestion if I just stripped 3" off the ends and ran the wire through the LF terminal and on up to the HF terminal? Just one wire (or four twisted together in this case) connecting both terminals. |
Bi-Wiring affects the crossover somehow since the signal is separated at the source instead of at the speaker. I hope someone else will explain this better. I have found bi-wiring makes a difference in my system. If Carl was here he would recommend MIT Terminator 2. So I will in his absence. That can be had at 50% of list at AudioAdvisor.COM |
Hi Bazmataz. Good advise from klysenger. Tm12 gave you excellent cost effective advice but try jumper first. Some speakers work fine with a jumper others not so good. |
Most "experts" say bi-wire is better sound, and if your speaker Manf. went through the extra effort and cost to provide this cabability you should take advantage. Bi-wiring reduces distortion in mids and treble, for detailed explanation why go to various cable manf sites such as, http://www.audioquest.com/company/faq.html Jumpers can be an improvement over cheap connector bars that come with speakers for single wire use, but do not offer the physical seperation that bi-wire does. Almost all quality cables are offered with optional internal bi-wire or you can always use double runs. I might mention that some high end speakers don't offer biwire option like Dynaudio, preferring more elaborate crossover designs, but most speakers provide biwire feature. |
At $300 - $400, I would use either an internal biwire(one speaker cable with two leads at the speaker end) using AudioQuest Midnight. Or a shotgun configuration(biwire with two separate cables, but one lead at amplifier end) using AudioQuest Indigo. Both recommendations would be for used cables. You probably would be able to do this in your price range. While I am a huge Kimber fan, my opinion is that it would be a bit too sizzly in your setup. If you ever need jumpers, buy 10(2 feet) or 12(3 feet) gauge silver from a jewelry supply house over the net for $8.95. Better than ANY brass(or copper), and much cheaper to boot. But, a bigger recommendation would be to try to shorten your speaker cable length(if at all possible), and go to longer interconnects. This will make a MUCH greater improvement than ANY speaker cable you could buy for most any price. |
Trelja again has words of wisdom, I forgot my cable recommendation at this price for new cable would be Analysis Plus Oval 12 or try shorter cables and got to AP Oval 9. For used the AQ indigo/midnight/forest lines are good and readily available on Audiogon, I slightly prefer to Kimber TC series, and have owned both, Sam |
Sam, you are too kind. Actually, I consider you to be the MOST knowledgeable cable guy on this site. Always bringing lots of good, real world advice. |
On every speaker I have heard it made absolutely no diference with bi-wires. The idea of this is to separate the reactance coming off the woofer from getting to the tweeter. With bi-wire speaker cables the wires still come together at the speaker terminals so whats the difference if they come together at the back of your amp or just inside the speaker. Zippo Rip-off |
Snook 2 - "The wires still come together at the speaker terminals so whats the difference" - I am not quite sure what you mean, but a speaker designed for bi-wiring has separate speaker terminals for the tweeter and for the bass/midrange. If your speakers only have two terminals for + and - then they are not designed for biwiring. There are even a few 3 way speakers designs that separate the bass/midrange. Anyone ever Tri-Wire ??? |
The advice on short cables is very good.I use 2 foot cables.Have monoblocks on the fllor beside speakers.Use longer interconnect.I belive this is the good way to go.This allows you to put the money into a better cable.Audioquest Midnight is very good i have used it for the last 8 months.I have tried some Dh labs and Alpha core MI2 both very good.MI2 would be my choice between them.I still belive BIwire is overrated and having two sets of binding posts is for BI Amping which does have a big effect. |
BiWiring Theory: it reduces cable-intermodulation of high-current bass signals into the delicate mids & highs. The longer cable runs are especially susceptible. I have a 20' pair of Audioquest Crystal 2 biwire shotgun w/spades available for $275 (about 50%off retail) because I have upgraded to MIT Music Hose for considerably more $. I know we're not supposed to promote our sales within the chats, but I've tried repeatedly to find Mr. Bazmataz via "member lookup" (in order to send an email) but it always comes back 'unable to find'. I've found that AGon's "member lookup" feature is typically unreliable. Sometimes it works, usually not; this happens whether I'm logged in or not. Sorry for breaking the rules: I tried the right way. But yes, biwire does work wonders. Just like anything else it's system-dependent, so you just have to try it & see. |
This does not make sense to me.The cable cant tell what signels it delivers.You are in many cases just dividing the strands within the same wire.Even if you double run.How does the wire know the difference. |
TM you ask good questions, with single cable obviuosly all freq are present in cable going to speaker, but the bass freq have much more energy than mid & treble and can cause distortion in these delicate areas. When speaker is designed as biwire with bass posts and treble posts your amp sees a much higher impedance at treble posts, and only mid & treble will travel on this speaker cable. All freq will travel on cable to bass posts, but the treble & mid do not have enough energy to distort bass signal. So you should have cleaner treble & mid because there is no distortion from much more powerful bass signal using same cable...... |
Dunlavy Speakers which are all capable of bi-wire told me there makes no difference in bi-wiring and to save my money. He also told me that the amp does more work to run 2 cables than 1 and may degrade the signal. I guess he would know |
Snook, may I direct to Vanderstein Speaker site where they have in depth explanation of their experiments with bi-wire and why it improves sound in speakers designed for bi-wire use: http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/Answr7.htm This is very in depth article, and expands on comments by myself and Bob.....Sam |
Thanks Megasam read the Vandersteen article. It amazes me how far apart the great speaker designers can be. Dunlavy is a major designer of cables and still is opposite of the Vandersteen ideas. |
Speaker designers are as divergent in philosophy as any in audio. Bi - wire versus not, 1st order crossovers vs 4th order(and even simple vs complex within those), inert cabinets vs reactive(this will be coming to the forefront), many drivers vs few drivers, easy to drive vs difficult, dynamic vs esl, low impedence vs high, etc. While many can make good sound, there is no absolute. With all that has supposedly learned over the years in this hobby, what has REALLY been learned? We now have designs that break all the "rules", and many claim they have the best sound they have heard. Maybe we should start a new thread to share ideas on this topic... |
I have good news for you. There seems to be no good reason whatsoever to bi-wire! I just received my latest edition of the Bound for Sound report in which its head honcho, Martin De Wulf, has published an article entitled, "Down With Bi-Wiring." Apparently, Marty has had a recent revelation and essentially contends that the very things bi-wiring is purported to accomplish are wholly negated by the fact that the wires nevertheless come together at the speaker terminals. Hence, he says, "...what's the difference if they come together at the back of your amp, or just inside the loudspeaker? Nothing! And don't think that you are accomplishing something with four sets of terminals on the back of the amplifier. They're all connected once they get inside the amp---No Advantage!" He further states, "...there was a time when I was on the bi-wire bandwagon. I stuck it out because of the terrible performance when the ubiquitous brass plated jumpers were used to tie the terminals together. Of course bi-wiring sounded good in comparison to those wretched things." He points out for those who are unaware, that the solution is a simple one. Typically, speakers have a plastic cup that houses the speaker terminals. Simply remove the screws securing it to the speakers, unhook one set of the internal cables and then hook them up to the other set, close it all back up, and that's it. He concludes that he's started to do some A/B testing (just 3 sets of speakers so far) and has yet to hear a pair of speakers that sounded better bi-wired. ---------------------By coincidence, (although I too have been bi-wiring for ages) I've recently been wondering about/questioning the whole reasoning behind bi-wiring myself. Reading Marty's article therefore spurred me into immediate action---performing the minor "surgery" on a pair of Stratus Gold i's. And I have to say, the results are truly amazing. That ridiculously simple mod, in conjunction with a SINGLE cable run yielded results that I would quantify as being better that a component upgrade. But please don't take my word for it. I expect there will be MANY a nay-sayer, but why not just try it out for yourself. You may find your results are worse/better/nil. The one thing that is for certain though, is that there is absolutely NOTHING to loose! If you are lucky, you might just happen to find you can afford to buy yourself a single-run of speaker cable that is TWICE as good as what you thought you'd have to spend to get a bi-wire pair. Good Listening! |
Fam, with all due respect, if Paul Barton of PBS thought sound was better with single wire, he would save money on extra terminals and internal crossover and design his flagship speaker, Stratus Gold-i with single terminals. BTW, I think you just voided the warranty on your Gold-i. I would be interested if you would e-mail Paul at PSB to get his opinion on your modifacation..... |
With all due respect to you, Megasam, Martin DeWulf also points out in his article, (and I tend to think he's correct) that in most cases, the speaker manufacturers have jumped on the whole bi-amp bandwagon/hysteria solely because they felt they had to, lest they be perceived as being behind the times---hence, diminished sales. BTW, when I get a chance, I will in fact contact Paul Barton and post and/or email you as to the result. |
I always thought that the two sets of terminals, one set for LF and one set for HF were there for bi-amping. |
Thanks everyone for your responses. I've gotten some good suggestions. But is it better to have longer speaker wire/shorter interconnects or the other way around? Thanks. Bazmataz Bazmataz@hotmail.com |
