atmasphere9,559 posts10-27-2020 11:36amYour taste in music will have nothing to do with the speaker, since what makes it good for classical will also make it good for rock, metal, jazz, folk and so on. This is because its impossible to make a speaker favor a certain genre; if someone is able to do so they would be a millionaire overnight!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Humbly disagree, Any speaker can play R&R, blues, grundge, hiphop, reggie Jazz requires a bit more finesse. CM (at least full blown symphony orchestra) requires even more finesse/nuances/fidelity vs all other musical genres. Full symphony orchestra requires a ~~special speaker~~Midrange demanding. |
johnnyb533,510 posts01-07-2014 9:53am I disagree based on experience to the contrary. It's relatively easy to find speakers that sound compelling with an acoustic jazz trio or quartet. Feed them a 100-piece orchestra and listen to them serve up inarticulate mush. Throw in a pipe organ and 8-part choir and it's just sonic wallpaper. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hey Jonny ~~sonic walpaper~~~, Full orchestra had me thinking the other day, , well as of 2019/late. That there seems to be some subtle passages with flutes, harps, percussion, which is not being voiced properly so i can hear it, I had to strain my ears. Sure recording engineers are partly to blame. Of course its in the score, as a lightly played passge, amongst a roaring orchestra. My guess is if I ever find this magical speaker than can detect, voice these tinest notations from winds, percussion, any other lightly touched passage. it will be something. So my search went on and on,,, Midrange, here is where i need to concentrate. Lets take bass/highs off the table for a moment. |
cd3181,719 posts10-27-2020 2:22pmClassical music is a far more demanding genre - from my point of view. My desire that a system can reproduce accurate timbre ( not washed out as is all too common) far outweighs its other qualities, such as imaging, or collosal dynamics etc. This possibly exaggerated desire for tonal colour leads me to believe I might have some form of chromesthesia (sound-color synesthesia). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromesthesia#:~:text=Chromesthesia%20or%20sound-to-color,associatio.... Classical music especially, without good instrument timbres, is difficult for me to enjoy, whereas with rock I'd be looking for great dynamics or for pop it might be a great midrange. Classical music with good timbral expression on the other hand becomes a joy. Especially piano and strings. So I think it's a question of finding a speaker that excels at that quality that's most important to you. All loudspeakers are not created equal, and few, if any, can do everything right. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes a speaker that is all in all perfection, is not a reality. Unless you want to go 3 way horn witha 15 inch woofer, Price? Weigyht/size? wife friendly? = not a option, Oh yeah it has every fq range you could ever want/ wish for. But these masssive horns present road blocks. **CM ~~Timbral expression ~~tonal colors~~~ Yes This is all midrange. Here is where we ought to focus and forget about bass/highs. Super highs are more for ambience than actually in the music. That isa super tweeter perhaps falsifies the actual highs within the music, ie classical composition. Do we want these shimmers, and sparkles? Yes we do. But lets forget the sparkles and concentrate exclusively on midrange Here is where the heart and soul of CM lies. I can find bass and high add on speakers, thats no big issue. its the massive amount of midrange fq's where we need to stay focused. Perahps there are a few single drivers that have capability to voice these wide band midrange with some degree of success. As box/xover speakers have failed in presenting symphony orchestra as it will be required. That is, nothing hidden, nunaces heard in flutes, soft cellos, hidden harp passages, This is the midrange we will need to make classical music come to life. |
I'm trying to find the best speaker between $25000 and $40000 for symphonic music. I listen to other things too but that's my reference.. Interested in Wilson, B & W, Rockport, Cantonkeithjacksontucson01-04-2014 11:35a~~~~~~ See you figured, if I spend big, this will leave behind speakers which are not up to class to play CM with pure musical fidelity. Sure there are horns systems at that time, 2014, which are quite good at voicing full symphony orchestra. But again, price, size/weight/wife friendly,,, all these factors work agaisnt going massive horn systems. The alternative and alot less money involved is going for the new high tech wide baads, most latest developments came out just after you posted 2015 Or was AER making wide bands in 2014??? I am not sure. If they were, there is hardlya mention here on audiogon 2014, So you would have never come across AER at that time. These drivers are too new in 2014. maybe in europe they had attention, but certainly not here in the states. Again Voxtaiv in 2014 had not really been revognized here in the states. Unless someone can show me a wide band topic mentioning these 2 drivers back in 2014, with more than say 20 posts. Why these wide band are not more popular here in the states is somewhat of a mystery to me. |
Any speaker can play R&R, blues, grundge, hiphop, reggie@mozartfan Any speaker can play classical too. The more finesse the speaker has, the better it plays all genres. Seriously- if you could find a way to make a speaker genre specific you'd be a millionaire overnight. The reason it can't be done is musicians all use the same set of frequencies and all humans have the same set of hearing perceptual rules. Its simply a mistake to lump all 'R&R, blues, grundge, hiphop, reggie' into the same spot when there is so much variety and nuance in modern music- and so much variance in recording quality, just as we've seen in classical music since the dawn of hifi. You want a nice rock recording- side one of King Crimson's Islands- you'll hear nuance, detail (if you have a good pressing) - it sounds like they are in the room. Or try a Pink Island edition of ELP's first album... Keith Emerson BTW was a master at the keyboard and integrated a variety of classical pieces into his compositions. And not surprisingly, if you want to hear these recordings at their best a speaker that does classical very well is going to do it, simply because the speaker does not care what music you play- and neither do the amps or preamps! |
Ralph, while your argument is fundamentally sound, only Jazz and Classical are typically performed without electronic support. Rock, Pop, Reggae, and even ELP always went through large speaker arrays with multiple crossovers and other electronic aids in the transmission chain. For acoustical music, any break in the frequency responce or -horrible thought- phase shifts in the audible spectrum severely interfere with one‘s enjoyment. So: ideally horn or other single driver systems, if need be two-ways, anything more complex usually doesn‘t get there. I guess I am preaching to the choir given your OTL design philosophy… |
while your argument is fundamentally sound, only Jazz and Classical are typically performed without electronic support. Rock, Pop, Reggae, and even ELP always went through large speaker arrays with multiple crossovers and other electronic aids in the transmission chain.@antigrunge2 If the bands were performing live that's likely true. But when recorded, often not. The bands are keenly aware of how PAs wreck the sound! We don't use a PA when recording our band. When you listen to that King Crimson LP I just mentioned its obvious they used a minimal mic'ing technique. Pink Floyd recorded an album for the BBC that used only a Decca tree, same as they might have used for an orchestra. That album is arguably their best recorded but they've always had a good studio technique. If you get a nice import copy of the Beatles stuff, even though its not real stereo its obvious they cared a lot about the sound. I've used Porcupine Tree as demos at shows for years. I also use the first Its a Beautiful Day LP because everyone seems to have heard White Bird- and its nice to demo what it really sounds like. Some years back on this thread I mentioned Black Sabbath- their LP is a solid demo of how you don't have to have acoustic instruments to nevertheless get a good recording. What is important in recording regardless of the genre is **intention**. |
Talk to James at Raven Audio. https://www.ravenaudio.com/ He designed and developed the CeLest and Corvus monitors and tower. He is a audio engineer and a classically trained musician. He has worked the DSO and many many Grammy winning AE and Conductors. You owe it to your self to hear these speakers. |
@atmasphere, fair enough, they did though use elctric guitars and keyboards in the studio as far as I can tell. My point is actually about frequency band overlaps and phase shifts as a result of crossovers and electronic enhancements in the transmission chain,, both on recordings and playback. Most studios don’t even care about absolute polarity much, a significant number of recordings are out of polarity and you hear it on a good system. |
antigrunge2551 posts06-30-2021 2:55pmRalph, while your argument is fundamentally sound, only Jazz and Classical are typically performed without electronic support. Rock, Pop, Reggae, and even ELP always went through large speaker arrays with multiple crossovers and other electronic aids in the transmission chain. For acoustical music, any break in the frequency responce or -horrible thought- phase shifts in the audible spectrum severely interfere with one‘s enjoyment. So: ideally horn or other single driver systems, if need be two-ways, anything more complex usually doesn‘t get there. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ OK now we are getting somewhere. One of the things that perked my attention to these single wide band, was the higher senstivity. Which factor may help allow some of the hidden subtle passges spread throughout Schnittke, Pettersson, Henze. There is ~~alot~~~ more things going on in the redcording, which at times are getting crushed by blaring brass, massive cresendos, Like in Ravel Daphne and Chloe. Fora year+ I racked my brains, as to how is it possible to give more voice to these jems covered over in some, if m=not most, of my cd collection. Stay on Seas web site daily, looking and looking. Then I recall seeing these odd things on Ebay called **Full range/wide band drivers***, maybe I should take a closer look,. After choosing several, witha next day sale, 1/2 price on ebay,,I decided to go one step price wise up, $200 pair. 4 inch. Here is what I was looking for. Sure its not going to cut it, its onlya temp til i get cash for a real deal wide band. The ebay seller gave me a tip as to what his drivers are **clones* of. That was the very 1st time I heard the name of the wide band which is on my wish list, september. *Be all/end all* = represents all 100% fq's?? Not looking for this feat. Classical music, full open orchestra is hardly below 60hz, not much above say, 10khz. Looking for something that can compete with Seas's very best 4 inch *Dedicated* midranges. It was a very long search, and had to think through this sort of *puzzle*, after I heard the word of the lab, very next second research began. Here is something I found, just now. I've heard many YT uploads of wide bands, and each one has impressed me. But this one goes further. I was convinced there isa sub attached somehow to this speaker, and so looked into the specs Come to find out, no sub. Looks like my plans to hold on to the dual Seas W19E001's as glorious bass, will not be needed. To my chargin, as i put alottt of cash intom the new Mundorf xovers and the bass is exceptional. Yet if the bass is even close to what i think I'm hearing in this vid, the Excel mids will ,,sadly, have to go. Another issue here is **power source**, I got a note from a USA dealer, PP amps would work just fine with this driver. But a 100 watter?? Could be trouble ahead. I have no plans whatsoever to sell the Defy7. These mismatched components,will just have to learn to get along. They have been around alottt longer than I imagined https://www.stereophile.com/content/voxativ-ampeggio-loudspeaker https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCwyMZ_bKRo My tech geek advised, cabinet construction might present some work/budget. I'll get them up N running 1st, temp cabinet, then he and I will figure out a design that I can follow. I am no cabinet maker, thats for sure. |
antigrunge2552 posts06-30-2021 5:28pm@atmasphere, My point is actually about frequency band overlaps and phase shifts as a result of crossovers ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes this is important/critical in a a plethora of mid fq;s comming out ofa full symphony orchestra. Seas *dedicated midrange* althougha great driver for all jazz, a blast of a orchestra will be a symphonic overload. I'me guessing Vox has made extenive testing on how they want mids to come across. My tech geek mention this same **over load** might be (= will be) heard in this wide band as well. *crack up/distortion* He has been around countless FR/wide band speakers, horns primarily. But has not heard these newer designs, This will be the ultimate test, full *grunge* symphonic orchestra passages. |
Looking at when you first started this thread, what if anything have you tried since? I love my ~ 97dB Emerald Physics 3.4s which is a 12" concentric driver with 1" polyester tweeter, but (small but) the OEM jumpers are pure CRAP, and the XOs need to be taken off the speaker bases. I saw several pair yesterday emerald physics speakers for sale - Bing |
fair enough, they did though use elctric guitars and keyboards in the studio as far as I can tell. My point is actually about frequency band overlaps and phase shifts as a result of crossovers and electronic enhancements in the transmission chain,, both on recordings and playback. Most studios don’t even care about absolute polarity much, a significant number of recordings are out of polarity and you hear it on a good system.Guitar amps don't have crossovers. Guitarists are incredibly picky about their 'sound' and go to great lengths to get exactly what they want- which is a combination of effect pedals, the amplifier and its volume and tone settings (and tubes), and finally a speaker deemed appropriate, not to mention the actual guitar and whatever pickup and other mods it might have. Being a keyboard player, I know how important it is to have clean sound so my keys go directly into the mixer without any speakers involved- that's how most of them do it. The exception is something like a piano or Fender Rhodes that is either directly miked or has to be played through an amp to get the 'sound' at which point the mic is in front of the speaker. You are correct about polarity, this is true of all recordings which is why a switch to invert polarity can be nice on the playback preamp, since 50% of recordings are inverted polarity. That's hard to hear if the recording is multi-miked though, which includes a fair amount of classical recordings (most of which I don't regard as 'reference'). @mozartfan I've been playing around a lot with 'full range' drivers over the last 20 years. If they do alright with classical they do alright with rock and anything else too. FWIW there's plenty of information coming from an orchestra below 60Hz!! I played string bass in orchestras for decades- low E is 41 Hz. Bass drums can be in the low 20s, organ pedal tones can go to 16 Hz (32 foot pipes). When I recorded Canto General I insisted to the producer that she arrange for the largest bass drum in the state, which was a good 5' in diameter. Its simply not something you can experience on a 'full range' driver :) When played back properly on a good system, that drum shakes the walls, which is what its supposed to do. |
It really depends… for close miked solo piano, I would pick larger Magnepan. For a full symphonic orchestra, Wilson. I’ve had both and ultimately settled on W/P8. Great for all music, but simply amazing with a well recorded orchestra. The dynamic (macro AND micro) can take your breath away, just like a live orchestra can. Most important, the speakers need to be carefully match to you room, listening habits, electronics, and of course lifestyle. |
