Best possible separates for Thiel CS 3.7

pgastone

Thanks! for sharing.  Happy Listening!

And FYI
I just spoke to Mike Sanders- it was a pleasure and he in fact discouraged using the V4 with the Thiel 3.7's (which he seemed quite familiar with).  The source impedance of the amp is too high and would not match with the speaker's fairly impedance dips.  

This is something that unsound had been mentioning.

On the other hand he explained that the mono 120's are specifically designed for more difficult loads and should handle the Thiels well.  

One of the problems of course is that this kind of information rarely readily available unless the amplifiers have been reviewed and appropriately tested.

I want to look more into this- very interesting.  I just wonder what kind of output impedance would then be considered a good match- yes obviously the lower the better but that is just a relative comparison. I would like to know about the matching in more absolute terms.

I just asked the same question on another thread- would Quicksilver V4's make sense for the Thiel's?  Latest version with KT150's produce some 170 watts.

I plan to call Mike Sanders to hear what he thinks as well.

thielisteThanks! for the update. CH, VAC or VTL would all be very fine choices.
Happy Listening!

Ok guys i called the CH distributor and they confirmed me that they have all the gear available for audition.They are located very far from my place therefore i will have to take a flight.I will try to arrange a demo in december and this time i want my wife to come with me, it's important for me to have her opinion as she is not yet familiar with CH separates.

@pgastone VAC phi200 monos would be a great choice for the 3.7 very refined but are you going to find a pair within your budget ?

Thanks for your reply Thieliste- I have not had time to look at the following option but I had read how a pair of Doshi Jhor mono's drove Wilson Sasha W/P very nicely.  These last ones have a more benign impedance and phase curve than the Thiel's but even with that you would not think these amplifiers could cope.  So I remain very intrigued by trying tubes for Thiel's.
I have also started looking at Vac (2 phi 200's as mono's) and VTL- I wonder if the signature 200 stereo might actually work.

Thieliste, 
Your wife has good ears and good taste😊. I suspect that she may notice  the intrinsic relative 'dryness' of much solid state (granted not all) components  compared to well implemented tube electronics. It's good that she's a willing partner in sharing your audio/music passion. I assume  she approves of the Thiels 😊.
Charles 

Charles my wife is not an audiophile but since i dragued her to many Hifi shows, at dealers and many classical music festivals for the past few years she's starting to have pretty good ears.Yes she does preffer tube sound therefore Aries Cerat is her choice right now.She has listened to the CH I1 integrated.She does not like CH Precision as much as i do.

Thieliste, 
Does your wife have extensive listening experience with High End audio or a musician background? A lot of women seem to have a knack (experienced ears or not) for identifying what many would reefer to as a natural sound. Does she also prefer Aries Cerat to Ypsilon as you do? I've heard Ypsilon components and I'm really impressed with them. I haven't heard Aries Cerat. 
Charles 

CH Precision is my absolute favorite SS pre-power combo at any price but i'm afraid if i decide to go this route my wife will kill me lol.It will be very difficult to convince her to go CH because she absolutlely loved the Aries Cerat combo with the Thiels.I have to take into account her taste, this is a 2 persons decision.I think she is right because that would leave me enough money to purchase a SOTA DAC + server like the Totaldac d1-Twelve mk2 and great cables.

Hello Al,
As always, thanks for contributing consistently intelligent and thorough technical analysis. I knew that Aries Cerat (AC) is in an unique category of tube amplification due to its near over the top approach of engineering, design and execution. As Thieliste mentioned above this is the goal of its designer/builder Stavros. 440 pounds of amplifier to yield 65 watts of SET power. As Al keenly observed,  very powerful tubes intentionally run very conservatively to keep them in their most linear operating zone. Utterly rational design decision. I have no doubt they sound sublime driving the Thiels 3.7 just as Thieliste described.

In the vast majority of cases involving these speakers I’d heed the advice of Unsound and George in terms of amplifier selection criteria. Thieliste I am admittedly curious to see how the esteemed CH Precision solid state components listening experience compares to the AC. Aries Cerat has established an  extremely high point of reference.
Charles

As the saying goes, and as Charles alluded to, there is an exception to every rule. And from a technical standpoint I don’t find it surprising that the Aries Cerat Concero 65 SET amp can provide excellent results with the CS 3.7.

First, while the speaker’s impedance is of course very low, as well as challenging in terms of phase angles at certain deep bass frequencies, it is relatively flat throughout most of the frequency range. Which will minimize the tonal consequences of impedance interactions with the amp, that would be problematical pairing many SETs with many other speakers. Second, both the amp (apparently weighing 220 pounds per monoblock) and its power tubes (each of the paralleled 813s has a plate dissipation rating of 125 watts) are monsters. And given the 65 watt rating of the amp the tubes are probably being run conservatively, in a region that provides better linearity than if they were being pushed closer to their limits.

It would be interesting to know the output impedance of the amp, or equivalently its damping factor. (The output impedance of the 4 ohm tap would be approximately 4 ohms divided by the damping factor). If that is relatively low (for a SET), say in the vicinity of 1 ohm (equivalent to a damping factor of 4 or more), it would further account for the amp pairing well with the CS 3.7.

In any event, if you purchase that amp keep away from the wire that runs up to the plate cap on top of the power tubes, as can be seen in this photo. It probably has around 2,000 volts on it. Probably only around 1,000 volts or so on the plate cap of the driver tube, though. 😉

Good luck, however you decide to proceed. Regards,
-- Al

Charles thanks for supporting my findings.There was obviously a reason for me to drive all the way to Zürich, the only place in Europe where it was possible to demo the Aries Cerat separates with Thiel CS 3.7s just because the Swiss Aries Cerat distributor happened to own a pair of 3.7s.
This demo wouldn't have been possible in France.To answer your questions we have used many genres of music from pop rock to electronica, alternative, jazz and classical.We were amazed how the AC amps handled many genres of music and at prettry loud level.I was really shocked at how the AC amps had an iron hand grip on the Thiels just like a big V12 engine but with dynamics and speed.
The bass was uber stable, deep and highly resolving not to mention the unmatched musicality and richness of the mids and treble, just world class.At €46K for the AC separates i hardly think the €88K CH Precision combo will do much better.The CH amps are the most liquid sounding amps i have ever heard at any price even compared to d'Agostino M400 but it won't have the meat of Aries Cerat IMO.
The AC separates already beat the Ypsilon separates to my ears.IMO Stavros Danos is the real deal in tube amplification now days period!The last step for me would be to demo CH L1+X1+M1stereo on the 3.7s but that's going to be pretty difficult to arrange.One last word, tubes is so magical on Thiel speakers!

Hi Thieliste,
You have a very interesting thread that has generated very good replies and comments from well informed posters. From literally everything I have read or heard about Thiel speakers it is generally acepted that they are best driven by high current powerful solid-state amplifiers.

Both George and Unsound respectively make a strong case for this recommendation. The 3.7 speaker in particular has challenging speaker load impedance characteristics. This would suggest that tube amplifiers and especially SET are non-starters and should be avoided.

You on the other hand make the case that you must actually listen to a combination ( audio components ) in order to judge its performance. I happen to agree with this stance ( within reason ) as I have heard combinations of components that on paper should not work well at all. Test bench measurements and specifications versus actual listening experience.

How on earth can a 65 W SET amplifier sound superb matched to the Thiel 3.7? It certainly defies conventional wisdom. Yet you did hear this exact combination and found it to be fantastic in performance and sound quality.

What type of music genre did you use during the audition and at what listening volumes? I do know that Aries Cerat (AC) it’s far from a typical tube amplifier and that they have massive power supplies and exceptionally stout design. These are big and very heavy products for a good reason.

1 Were there any issues interns of bass performance and control?
2 how was the quality of the all important mid range? I know you are strongly considering the CH Precision which in many ways is the polar opposite of the Aries Cerat I give you much credit for actually listening to thie Thiel/AC combination as opposed to relying exclusively on numbers on paper.

The Ac products are really in my opinion an all out assault on state of the art. So it isn’t surprising that your success with them is proving to be the exception to the general rule in regard to amplification for the Thiels.
Best of luck,
Charles

@pgastone i forgot one other great combo to drive the CS 3.7s is Nagra Classic preamp paired with Luxman M-900u if ever you have the bugdet one day.

Hi pgastone nice to meet another Thiel CS 3.7 enthusiast!I have been a Thiel fan for the past 22 years starting with the CS 1.5 and working my way up to the 3.7s in 2014.For the past 4 years i have been working and searching for my crazy project : building the most high end Thiel system that has ever been built.People might think i'm crazy but hey when you know you will have the budget why not try it, when you are an enthusiast you want to push things to the limits.If you want tube amps that can really drive the 3.7s to their max unfortunately you will not find anythink in the 5K price range.To max them out you need Aries Cerat Concero 65 monos, KR Audio Kronzilla DX monos or VAC Signature 200iq monos.But if you listen at moderate volume you should look at VAC Renaissance 30/30 or PureSound A30 both very musical with the 3.7s and within your budget.BHK 300, Aesthetix Atlas monos, Modwright KWA 150 Sig monos and Hegel H30 are all great choices for the 3.7s but more expensive.If you can find a used Hegel H30 paired with tube preamp you wouldn't be disappointed
Hope this helps.

Hi thieliste,
I just wanted to chime in as I just started a thread asking for advice for amplification for Thiel 3.7’s- you can see it under pgastone as:
Still looking for an amplifier upgrade- but with a new twist.....

And here’s the twist:
To make a long story short, before I owned the Magcio's I had bought a pair Thiel 3.7's. I got a very good deal on them and took a chance hoping they wouldn't look too imposing in my room and for the overall decor. Unfortunately they did look a bit too outsized which is why I got the much more room friendly Magico's.  After a long time that the Thiel's were just sitting there gathering dust I finally got ready to sell them. But for fun I decided to give them a last run in my system before I boxed them up and listed them. Well, I thought they sounded so good, with improved resolution, body, air and texture than the Magico's, which themselves are really engineering marvels considering what they can do for their size, that I decided to throw caution to the wind and just live with size.

Anyway, I am looking at equipment at a completely different price point than yours- right now I am using an Mcintosh Ma 7000 integrated where I have bypassed the presupposes section with Primaluna Dialogue Premium preamp- just adding this preamp was an enormous jump in quality so now I want to keep on going.   My budget for a new amp is about usd5k but I am starting to consider upgrading pre and amp.

Right now leaning towards a BHK or Aesthetix combination but there are other excellent single choice alternatives like pass 250.8 etc.   But as I explAined in my thread I would really like to try tubes- I think that with the 3.7’s it would be magical but tough to find an alternative with enough power and current and stay within budget- but that is What I would love to try if I had the means.

In the meantime I would be very interested in any thoughts you and the other participants here might have.

Anyway, it is great to meet you and all the other forum members!!

Try to audition some Vitus Audio, Soulution, CH Precision. The Soulution & CH Precision are Swiss. All these three make spectacular gears.

jafant on the 16th i will audition Nagra classic preamp paired with Luxman M-900U amp.The next day i will attend the Paris Hifi show and meet Vincent Brient to finalise my decision on the purchase of the Totaldac Twelve mk2 + server.For the pre-power part there is only 2 brands left on my shortlist : Aries Cerat and CH Precision.Ypsilon is in third place on the podium.You guys can start guessing which brand will win for Thieliste's ultimate system.

thieliste

which brand(s) is next on your audition list-  Happy Listening!

Maybe Vitus?

Thanks for your suggestion but i'm only interested in reference level gear like CH Precision, Ypsilon, Aries Cerat, d'Agostino, VAC and others.

Get a Perreaux preamp and a 2150B amp. 200wpc/8 ohms, 400wpc/4ohms. Clipping at 300+ and 500+ watts, respectively! I bought one to use with my restored DQ-10's - a speaker that benefits from a powerful amp!

SET amps is the most musical route for Thiel speakers in my opinion.But to handle such loads, Aries Cerat big monos are the only ones on the market today capable of bringing them to another level.I'm aware that i might be the only one in the world who has tried this level of amps with Thiel speakers lol

Tried the Bryston cubed series on my Thiel 2.4s and orchestral peaks were screechy, the high were unlistenable.  Did some things right but just didn't work for me.  My Aesthetix Atlas was "ok" with the Thiels but what really floated my boat was Pass...the X series not the XA series.  Kent at Pass directed me to the X series over the XA series saving me $10,000 when he could have easily sold me the XA monos.  He felt the X series was better suited to the Thiels. 

Can’t argue with your first point, but i’ve experienced sound adored by others that I couldn’t imagine why.
Perhaps the Cerats are the physics defying 65 Watt SETs unicorns that can handle the sub 2.5 Ohm impedance with challenging phase angle Thiel 3.7’s. But, I’d have to hear that for myself, and based upon past experience and current costs of these amps, I’m in no rush.

Numbers are one thing, but trying the gear in real life is another thing.
That's why I say always try the gear before making assumptions.
The Aries Cerat monos are most likely the best tube amps to drive Thiels.
The synergy is phenomenal.

Perhaps on their own 101 dB horns (horns are not my cup of tea), but Thiel 3.7's? I haven't heard the combination, but I am dubious about the compatibility of 65 Watt SETs driving the Thiel 3.7's.

Guys I am in Switzerland right now to audition some pre-power combos for my speakers and yesterday I was at a dristributors to demo Aries Cerat Impera ll + Concero 65 monos on the 3.7s and I was totally blown away by the level of performance.
This gear is in a totally different league I can assure you.

I'm in agreement with Georgehifi! With that said, I can't help but think you might be better off spending some of that money on a pair of Thiel SS3 subs. Use the balance of funds on some high quality amps that can handle the still demanding load of the Thiel 3.7's with much of the strain (though with extended bass response!) relieved by the self powered subs.

thieliste
I am looking forward in reading your audition report. Safe travels.
Happy Listening!

Must gently disagree.

As good as Bryston is it's not in the same league as Gryphon, CH Precision, Ypsilon and Aries Cerat to name a few.

Bryston 7B cubed

Gryphon Antileon Evo would be a very good choice with the Pandora preamp.I have demoed this combo driving Rockport Atria V2.This amp has an impressive grip on just about any speakers.

thieliste OP
My question of the day is if you had a budget of 50K to drop in a pre-power combo to drive a pair of Thiel CS 3.7 what would be your top 3 favorite choices

You need to look at the impedance/-phase graph to make an informed decision.
This speaker cries out for solid state with plenty of current, which to me says big muscle amps amps with bi-polar (bjt) output stages.
EG: Gryphon, Krell, D’Agostiono, ect ect .
(My choice would be a Gryphon Antillion Evo with user adjustable Class-A bias points while playing music)
http://www.gryphon-audio.dk/products/power-amplifiers/antileon-evo-stereo.aspx

https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/1208T37fig1.jpg

• " CS3.7’s impedance remains between 2 and 3 ohms over much of the audioband (fig.1), and that there is a demanding combination of 3.8 ohms and –40° capacitive phase angle at 60Hz. Thiel specifies the impedance being nominally 4 ohms, with a minimum of 2.8 ohms. I actually found the minimum impedance to be 2.4 ohms at 125Hz. The difference between 2.8 and 2.4 ohms is academic, either mandating use of an amplifier that has no problem delivering high currents."
  

Cheers George

Hi guys, here's the latest news regarding my quest for the ultimate Thiel CS 3.7 rig.On oct 24 i will be demoeing in Geneva at Dartzeel factory NHB-18NS + NHB-108 model 2 combo.The next day i will be in Zurich to demo Aries Cerat Impera ll preamp + Diana Forte stereo amp driving a pair of Thiel CS 3.7s.The AC Kassandra Ref DAC will also be in this rig.In the afternoon we will go listen 2 other rigs also with Aries Cerat pre-power and some KR Audio stereo amp driving nice horns.There is one last ultimate pre-power combo that i would like to demo on my Thiels : CH Precision L1+X1+M1 stereo.As you can see my budget has raised quite a bit but this will be for me a once in a life time system.My digital front end will be the brand new Totaldac d1-Twelve mk2 + d1-server.

@beetlemania You can check this video where Vincent Brient drives directly 3 huge monoblocks with his 4 units Totaldac Twelve at the Munich show :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VxI3BVKiDI

A no preamp configuration

FWIW, Stereophile’s review of the Ayre QX-5 found the SQ to be better with a KX-5 feeding the amp rather than using the DAC’s digital volume control in a direct connection. That may not apply to the totaldac but you want to get it right when spending this much!

A no preamp configuration that would be top notch is Ayre MX-R Twenty driven by Totaldac Seven + d1-server.

They're a difficult load, I wouldn't put tubes on them. For amps I'd look at Bryston 28B Cubed, Pass X350.8/X260.8, MOON 870A, Audia Flight Strumento 4, Accustic Arts AMPIII, BAT  VK-655SE, warmer and smoother SS in general.

For the remaining budget I'd pick a DAC that could drive the amps directly if you only listen to digital.

I agree, the CS3.7 is a seriously good speaker. I think Tom Thiel’s forthcoming XO upgrade will push it to the next tier.

The stereo VX-R plus KX-R might be closer to your budget limit. The 5-series sounds nearly as good, IMO, but not as much power. Or MX-R for the power combined with KX-5 pre-amp will come in under budget. Many, however, think the KX-R is Ayre’s best ever product. A KX-R plus Atlas would come in under your budget.

Lots of good choices with that budget! Have fun!

Ayre R-series is unfortunately to expensive in Europe at €67K.

@beetlemania yes i recognize it's a lot of coin for an only 15K speaker but my goal is to push the limits of the 3.7s since i cannot convince myselt to change speaker brand in the future, that's how much i like Thiel speakers.So the only way to upgrade is to get the best possible electronics out there to drive my 3.7s. and see how far they can go.By the way i can confirme you that the Aesthetix Atlas monos and callisto is awsome pairing the 3.7s, i've auditioned this set up.I have been told the Aries Cerat pre-powermonos combo driving the 3.7s is world class!

Ayre R-series
ARC Ref 6 and Reference 250
Aesthetix Atlas and Callisto

That’s a lot of coin for Thiels. Make sure you sign up for Tom Thiel’s XO upgrade when he has one! A tweaked CS3.7 driven by these pre/power combos would really sing!