Are you a music lover, or an "equipment specification" lover? If you are a music lover, you will listen to what I have to say; if you are a spec and equipment lover you will dote on every word Raul has to say.
Make no mistake about this post, in no way am I challenging Raul's knowledge of cartridges, but I am challenging his method of classification in regard to good and bad.
Raul quite often ends his posts with this;
"Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS"
There is a subliminal SS message hidden in that statement; that's because SS is more likely to have 0 noise and distortion than tube, but are you hearing what the musicians intended for you to hear or a good reproduction?
I'll give you an extreme example of music versus equipment; after my SS pre bit the dust, I asked for a CJ loaner. A "golden eared" audiophile was visiting at the time; although the CJ was apparently noisy, the music sounded better.
While I was thinking this, he blurted it out. His hearing was so acute, and his listening ability so intense, that I would invite him over for a session, and ask what I had changed without telling him. (I miss that guy)
He would demand complete silence, and after listening for awhile, he would say "You got new interconnects", and whatever his answer, it would be the correct one; that's what I had changed.
Everyone knows about ARC; I got an ARC SS pre loaner, and we listened to it for 5 minutes before returning thumbs down, and going back to tubes.
No noise, and 0 distortion can be seductive, but I want to hear every nuance the musicians are laying down, even if that includes both noise and distortion; a tube phono is a perfect match for a MM cartridge.
Dear @orpheus10 : That " MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS " goes way beyond SS vs Tubes technology limitations.
As @johnss posted in the other thread both analog/digital signal pick up by the recording microphones is way manipulated that degrades it and we can't do nothing about because the damges already comes in the LP grooves.
What can dowe to try to listen the LP's in the best way?. IMHO, try to listen it putting at minimum every single noise, distortions, anomalies, etc, etc developed during the overall play proccess.
Than means that we need to know or learn how THD sounds along/added to MUSIC, same for IMD, noise levels, frequency response bandwindth. room/system relationship. Unfortunatelly in the overall room/system chain each link is a focus od developments of different kind of noises, distortions, anomalies that degrades the already heavy degraded recorded signal that comes in the LP grooves.
I posted several times that my main room/system target is to stay truer to the recording and this means to put my room/systems developed noises, distortions, anomalies and the like at minimum.
To do those we have to be self trained to be aware how detect all those developed " enemies " and how to put at minimum. Only to know how detect it how it sounds each of them is a true challenge for any one of us and we need a hard sel training, patience and a lot of time.
When any one of us can be near of that target digital or analog always will performs with very high quality and you will listen those MUSIC nuances you are talking about with SS electronics.
We have to learn if that high frequency " transparency " is just MUSIC or is added distortion what we are in true listen it, not an easy task but worth the rewards to enjoy rally enjoy MUSIC and not only that: " I like it ", that at the end means almost nothing because each one " I like it " is really different.
Raul, I agree with your take on "I like it". That's why my speakers are as neutral as possible; I only want what the musicians who made the record intended for me to have; I'm a music lover, not an equipment lover.
When a person becomes an audiophile, he no longer wishes to alter the music to suit his taste, but only wants the music from the source to come through unaltered.
"I like it" can be used to justify anything; it can go far beyond differential preferences.
Dear @orpheus10 : """
When a person becomes an audiophile, he no longer wishes to alter the music to suit his taste, but only wants the music from the source to come through unaltered. ""
well that's the " perfect " target that all we know can't exist no matters what and that's why we have to take care how to be nearest or less far away of that " perfect " target.
There are simple/sutil " things " that could helps us additional of everything we already know or that as me are just learnit to, examples of what I'm talking about:
- seat position, that means not only the distance from the speakers but the build material and shape of that " seat. As simple the better but normally we look for a very confortable one it does not matters if that does not helps for a better listen quality.
- kind of fabrics of our clothes when listening the audio system. Syntehic fabric goes against quality.
- cleanse the ears at least twice a year with an specialist.
- try not listen over 87db at seat position SPL for hours.
- temperature issue is important too not only because cartridge suspention but because our ears and body.
- we have to remember that we hear through all our body so as less clothe we wear as better enjoyment on MUSIC.
-attend at least twice a month to listen live MUSIC.
- think and take action/changes/modifications " out of the box ".
- always make to our self these questions: " what if am I wrong and why could be? what to do?
- try to listen as many different home audio systems as we can.
Well Raul, to make a long story long, I will tell you a minute part of what I've done to have unaltered music.
To begin with, I have custom speakers (don't recommend it, wouldn't do it again) ; they are so neutral that the slightest change in interconnects is easily detectable.
First I engaged a "cross over design engineer" to guarantee they would have no sound of their own; then we selected the drivers; they're 3 way. (if the thought ever crosses your mind, the cross over is one part you can't leave to guess work)
While I've heard a multitude of other speakers that have personality which I've enjoyed; such as Klipsch, and JBL, I know mine deliver the musicians intentions, and the bottom line for me, is always the music.
Cartridges are throwaway items like brake pads or windshield wipers. The $300 Nagaoka 200 beat the Ortofon Black in a British group test last spring. Think about it. I replaced my Nagaoka with a MC cartridge a few months ago. The Nagaoka was more musical and I am regretting it.
Now I have a PICKERING XSV4000 and in fairness it is very good - came with a turntable I bought - I would like an NOS stylus though. I know @chakster mentions the JVC X1 - I want one - partly to go with my QL10, but all I see are used ones - anyone know where to source an NOS one? Of the current carts everyone seems to be going on about the Ortofon, yet nobody mentions either the new Garrott carts nor the Cartridgeman Music Maker.
The X-1 series of Victor cartridges is great! This is the only NOS Victor X-1 i’ve been able to find. Some of them suffer from poor suspension condition, so you never know if unchecked. Stylus protector may cause resonance issues, it was removed later with X-1II series which i like the most and still have a NOS in the box. I like old Garrott p77, but never tried new. Stanton /Pickering top modeals are amazing. Low impedance and very very low output MM versions of Pickering XLZ-4500s or Stanton 980LZS are very interesting and can be connected to the MC input or Step-up. Totally forgotten Ortofon is M20FL Super (Nude Fine Line Diamond) impressed me a lot a few years ago. I don't have a cartridge, but got one NOS D20FL stylus in the box, hope to find a generator for it.
@chakster Whilst I very much accept and believe your premise with regards to certain carts like the JVC x1-ii and pickings with stereohydron styli - the problem is that they are just not available - As much as I like my XSV4000 cartridge - very even - great bass - very neutral - it really does lack the magic of my two MC's that to my ears simply sing. I accept that MM's are in fact better trackers, and are actually more accurate (read the Regon audio site by Robert Green which explains this better than I can) - but somehow MC's bring a magic and space that is often hard to define until you hear them.
Sure, i like some LOMC, currently running Ortofon MC2000 with Gold Note phono stage. Very unusual cartridge, a high compliance MC with extremely low output, low impedance. This cartridge is hard to deal with, very critical about phono stage, wires etc. Sound quality is addictive.
I've never tried XSV4000, but XSV3000 is a brother of the Stanton 881s (highly regarded in TAS mag back issue). It's $300-400 cartridge, amazing for the money, but not the best from Stanton/Pickering.
My favorite Stanton CS-100 WOS is highly competitive with any LOMC, the sound of CS-100 WOS is seductive.
The problem with any MC cartridges is re-tipping (imo).
Totally agree with you about re-tipping @chakster .
I am hoping to be set up with a couple of decks so then it is the MM for everyday listening, Denon for dems, the shelter for proper listening and the Transfiguration Temper when I want the best. I am led to believe that a good record cleaning regime will prolong cartridge life. I have the perfect phono stage for the MC2000 - the Vendetta SCP2A.
As much as I like my XSV4000 cartridge - very even - great bass - very neutral - it really does lack the magic of my two MC's that to my ears simply sing.
That depends on what you consider magic. I consider the sound from these great MM cartridges as very magical and RIGHT sounding.
I'm somewhat satisfied with the Ortofon Blue that came with my table. For a cheap cart it's not bad. Highs are crisp and lows have great balance and punch. It's lacking in the mid range area though. I'm looking at upgrading in the near future and on the short list is the Ortofon Black and the top of the line Audio Technica dual magnet. Don't have part number handy for the AT but it has the same Shibata stylus as the black.
When bringing up those "old" MM cartridges we were half way into MONO; it's for sure we weren't heavy into "sound stage". My point is; these new MM and MI cartridges can produce a holographic sound stage, and from the reviews I read, are comparable to the MC's, but less expensive.
When you get into the MM's over 1K, you actually save money, because a cheaper phono will be quite sufficient, and the results might be better in some ways than the MC's.
Orpheus, Do you mean to say we were “half way” into mono in the 70s and 80s? I don’t get your point. MC cartridges didn’t enter the US market until the mid 70s. And those early contenders were not very good compared to “good” mm or mi.
This is an old favorite, i have NOS FineLine stylus for this cartridge, but i don't have a generator anymore, one channel is missing, we opened up the cartridge and one super thin wire is broken, still can be soldered (i'm gonna try).
My point is; these new MM and MI cartridges can produce a holographic sound stage, and from the reviews I read, are comparable to the MC's, but less expensive.
Unfortunately reviewers can't (or never want to) compare an old classic MM/MI from the 70s/80s to the new MM.
There is no way I can debate "sound stage" in regard to any cartridges before the 90's, because I didn't get into that until after I got into the "hi end" which was early 90's.
Now that I'm into the whole bit about air and space around instruments, that's what I demand.
Once upon a time, I bought everything my favorite reviewer at "Stereophile" recommended that I needed. That worked out very well, until we got to cartridges. I did not like the cartridge he recommended, and it was even one of the favorites on this forum. That's when I discovered how finicky I am in regard to a cartridge, as everyone else should be.
It's taken a long time and a lot of experimentation to discover what I'm looking for in a cartridge. Since further experimentation will be both time consuming and expensive, (don't have either in abundance) I'll be restricted to Grado and Koetsu when finances allow. This means I'll have to take everyone's word for everything else.
I was referring to the old Stantons and Pickerings that Chakster often speaks of; they were the best at that time, meaning the 50’s and 60’s.
No, i’m talking about that huge steel needles for 78 rpm gramophones that we have to change after each side.
Seriously, the best Stanton & Pickering made from the late ’70s to mid ’80s ONLY!
Why you always come up with that ’50s stuff when i'm talking about Stanton? C’mon, i don’t use any cartridges made earlier than 1977. This is MM era if you want to know.
If you like ’50s sound stick to the Ortofon SPU MC mono.
I was born in the 70s, so i missed that Shure and Empire, but re-discovered the best vintage MM/MI cartridges not so long ago after trying multi thousand MCs.
Please look at this Stanton catalog, download it here
Stanton 881s, 881s mkII, 980, 981 and finally CS-100 WOS this is all you need to know about Stanton, the rest is just crap. You can’t go wrong with any of these models, but prepare to pay $400-1000 for any of them in New Old Stock condition nowadays. Amazing MM cartridges with Stereohedron nude diamonds (one of the best stylus profile ever made).
The Pickering models from XSV-3000 and higher numbers also comes with Stereohedron diamonds, same as Stanton, also amazing cartridges, same price range.
All of them designed by Walter O. Stanton who passed away in 2001.
He sold the company long time ago, it’s called now The Stanton Groud and only manufacture cheap gear and heap carts for professional market (djs and radiostations). No more Stereohedrom styli or anything good from that company under new ownerships.
Why people are paying so much for rare Stanton/Pickering top models from the late 70s and early 80s? Because they are superb!
Orpheus, The best of the Stantons/Pickerings (which are really analogous to each other) are from the 70s and perhaps 80s. We had nothing like them in the 50s, for sure. Stereo came in only in the late 50s and didn't take over until the mid-60s. You are making these cartridges older than they really are. I agree with Chakster: Stanton 881S, 980/981LZS, 980/981HZS, and 100WS, and probably the analogous Pickering series, from XVS3000 through XVS7500, are the best of that bunch and very competitive still today, with anything.
Chakster, and Lewm, that catalog confirms some things I stated awhile back about jukeboxes. It said the Stanton cartridges were made especially for broadcast and recording professionals. Jukeboxes that went into the lounges in the early 60's were installed by professionals.
Some people distinguish "high end" by the names of the components, I distinguish high end by the sound that I hear. During the early 60's, the record you punched on the jukebox could be seen playing through the front glass; it was a 45, and I saw a Stanton Cartridge with a brush on the front end playing the record. Every thing in those jukeboxes was about as high end as you could get at that time, including the tube electronics, and speakers. That was because the sound of the music emanating from them kept the quarters rolling in big time; they made a lot of money; enough for gangsters to fight over.
I have an excellent audio memory, and I demand that my cartridge reproduce some of the "nuances" I heard from records I played at that time. One of those records was "Blue Funk" by Ray Charles and Milt Jackson; this tune has nuances that only the very best rigs can reproduce, and the jukeboxes I fed quarters certainly reproduced those nuances.
All of the artists on that record are the very best jazz masters of that time, including Ray Charles, who is known for everything except jazz.
Check "Skeeter Best" on guitar, beginning at 6:01; between 6:50 all the way to the end is where it really gets "funky"; those nuances are what I demand of a cartridge; but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Time marches on, and so does progress; a lounge where a jukebox sits was not a listening room; things like "sound stage" and holographic image were not considered.
My Grado Master 2 can create a holographic sound stage, could the Stantons and the Pickerings do that?
@orpheus10 sorry, but i have to say that you don’t know what you’re talking about and you don’t even read what i have posted many times for you, professional Stanton is like professional Grado cheap models, nothing special indeed. Not sure if you ever heard about Grado DJ100i and Grado DJ200i designed for deejays today. Every respected company including Grace, Audio-Technica, Technics, Empire, Ortofon, Shure, Denon made professional series for deejays/radiostations etc. These carts are well known for durability, but not for the best sound quality, definitely not for audiophiles, they are cheap and affordable for anyone, normally under $150 , They are all comes with bonded spherical or elliptical styli (easy to replace for low cost).
But the Stanton Pickering models i have mentioned here as the reference are very expensive cartridges, designed for audiophiles, for critical listening sessions. Have you ever heard about Stereohedron stylus profile? This is very expensive stylus profile invented by Stanton (nude diamond).
I don’t understand why you always mixing together professional cartridges and hi-end cartridges. Two different world!
I have Joseph Grado Signature XTZ model considered the best Grado ever made, but Stanton top models are better cartridges.
Since there is no way we can compare the Stantons and Pickerings to the Grado; is there any way we can compare the Grado to the Grado; I want some verification beside your word.
Chakster, I really don’t think Orpheus reads our posts. To lump juke box and DJ cartridges of the 50s with the highly evolved late production Stantons and Pickering XSV is ludicrous. Because both types had built in brushes?
This is strictly opinion, and the only facts I have to confirm my opinion, are when the very rich got much richer by manipulating the commodities markets, and made an astronomical amount of money off the price of food and gas.
For some reason, the folks here seem to know only "audiophilia"; but be that as it may, it wasn't until after the rich got much richer; that they had so much money, they began to spend it on the most ridiculous stuff, like 33,000 dollar interconnects, and all sorts of stuff that was the most expensive, with no regard to value. As if, somehow, the most expensive must be the best
For years I came into contact with rich people through real estate, and they always had an eye out for "value"; they wouldn't buy stuff unless it was worth what they paid for it, and if you recall the most expensive gear in the past was worth the high price, not some totally ridiculous price that was all out of whack.
Now it seems that almost every major high end audio brand has something that fits that bill of having some item which has no connection to value. Before now, Grado's products seemed to be related to value, but if his competitors are selling items that have no relation to value, why shouldn't he get some of that "easy money".
lohanimal264 posts Of the current carts everyone seems to be going on about the Ortofon, yet nobody mentions either the new Garrott carts nor the Cartridgeman Music Maker.
Not true. Back on Oct 27 I made two posts in this thread singing the praises of the Music Maker III. Excellent cartridge that deserves much more press / praise than it receives.
Update: Have been using Ortofon 2M Black while waiting (forever) for an Audio Note IQ3 to arrive and have been really enjoying it. Bought a Signet TK7E today with the TKN14 stylus for my uncle for Christmas and decided to mount it. Haven't stop listening since. I'm pretty sure I like it better than the 2M Black. Better bass and vocals are cleaner and warmer. Doesn't handle busy passages quite as well but also overall less edgy. I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to find him a replacement gift.
Hard to do better than the Signet TK-7 Series of MMs.....👍 I don’t remember if the TKN14 is the No.2 or No.3.....? If you look at the underside of the stylus assembly you should see the No.2 or 3 embossed. If you have the No.3 stylus....it is the Shibata and it effectively makes your cartridge a TK-7SU......
I was wrong. The 2M Black is clearly better in my system. Had some people over for listening. Compared the TK7E with their second best stylus the TKN14 and the Grace F9E and the 2M Black and it was clear to all that the 2M Black was superior. No dissenters.
I am using an old Sonus Gold Blue tracking at 1.20 grams on a Technics 1200G. best tracking and quietest cartridge i have ever used. really sounds fantastic.
Excellent. Thanks for posting. Superb trackabity at 1.2 g, always a good sign. Is this really from the 70´s ? I have also this vintage cart in good working order so I will give it a try.
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