Has anyone compared, Gryphon Diablo, Gamut Di150, Vitus SS101, Krell FBI, APL UA-S1 Jeff Rowland Continuum 500? Please add what you found to be best integrated.
That sort of thinking is exactly why Intergrated amps made by most companies cannot make it to the big league..
To me,I have no problems with Pass Labs,I have many friends who like their warmth sound,but my issue is with their design approach with intergrated amp.
No, it is not as easy as you think it is,in fact IMHO,you need a specific technical skills to be able to executes the Intergrated cuircuit.
This is what I suggest you guys do;Go out and listen to these following Intergrateds this weekend[NEODIO 150,ASR Emitter,Lavardin IT/IS Referance,Kondo Ongaku,Karan]and compare them to ANY seperates at ANY price in almost ANY systems....I have,but I want you guys to find it out for yourselves..
Fafaion If and when Spectral designs integrated amp on the base of 250 amp and 30SS preamp that could be a great integrated, you just need their one box player the 4000 and quest for electronics is over.
Another contender might be the LSA series hybrids. All have the same structure and put out 150watts. The Signature and statement have slightly different circuits and improved components. I have heard the basic reference version when it was DK designs, the other 2 are supposed to be a big step up. The basic one was very good indeed. Strong support from Bound for Sound and Stereo Mojo too.
"I'm still thinking though that the Rowland 500w/ch Class D is probably the best high end match for my big power sucking Ohms."
This could be very true.
The pre section is "all new" and really brings a transparent sweetness and evenness that very few separate pres can match and then you have the well controlled power section, operating in DC (the pre does to) to give you ultra quiet background, all provided with very generous power reserves and high damping capacity. Even my traditional dynamic speakers appreciate the power, but the Ohms may well DEMAND it.
Yes, this is for certain. They would love the 500w/ch doubling into 4 ohms, high current, and damping. There is little doubt in my mind.
They are very forgiving however once you meet this demand. They impart their highly coherent omni-like sound to almost any decent piece of equipment properly matched. Better pieces will deliver their unique qualities as well, but the Ohms are so inherently lifelike that a listeners priorities regarding the sound they are used to might well change.
I asked John Strohbeen at Ohm what amp to go with for the Ohm 5s. He suggested NAD as a good value option. I've had NAD stuff. Not the most coveted of gear for audiophiles, but I am sure a good NAD on the Ohms would compete well with much higher end electronics on many other speaker designs.
The highly regarded pre-amp section (including phono) on the Rowland adds value for it in my case with the Ohms on my current system.
Mapman, my friend, there's no getting around it, at $8800 ($9200 with phono)for the Continuum 500, you're talking "real money", BUT I think it's an incredible value or bargain. I've never had a moment of buyer's remorse. As you note, the pre-amp section competes with separate pres that cost more the C-500 in total. It's really a no-compromise integrated.
NAD is a great "value" for those that can't afford or don't want to afford 9k (I fully understand this position and I've been there myself in the past), but no one's going to say that it'll compete with an ARC Ref.3 pre-amp, as is actually said of Rowland's pre. Forget about the power side, where Rowland is literally in a class almost by itself.
If you need more power than 1000 watts into 4 ohms, then you'll have to consider separates, like a Capri driving two Spectron III monoblocks. I have little doubt that would be wonderful, but expensive and much bulkier than the C-500. Hey, but if you need the power, you need the power. (I suspect - hope - that the 1000 watts will be enough).
I get by very well, especially in the small 12X12 room the big Ohms are currently in, with the ~ 120w/ch Musical Fidelity A3CR that also doubles into 4 ohm.
In my larger room that I also like to use them in, (~30X20, L shaped, the A3CR still goes plenty loud, but 500w/ch doubling would add even more meat to the bones and go as loud as ever needed. I had a lower current Carver amp that did over 300 w/ch prior, but only did marginally more into 4 ohm. It went as loud as could ever be wanted, but did not take control of the Walsh driver fully at lower volumes, making for a noticeably thinner sound
I'm leaning towards the Rowland as the best no compromise solution in my case. There is even a dealer not too far away in DC I believe.
Do you know if Rowland has a satisfaction guaranteed policy of any kind? Its probably determined more by the dealer, I would guess.
Fafafion, do you need an integrated circuit when you simply add a passive attenuator? I'm not techincal, but I don't see why there any difficulty with this. Now you may or may not like a passive (many do) and prefer an active gain stage, buffering,and power regulation as it relates to the preamp section, but that is another, more difficult design challenge - no?
"Do you know if Rowland has a satisfaction guaranteed policy of any kind? Its probably determined more by the dealer, I would guess."
Actually it's a Rowland thing and personal. He's outlasted many of his dealers and doesn't want unhappy customers. Mark at Soundings has told me of Jeff doing repair on amps that were well over ten-years old and even throwing in free upgrades as part of the deal. That's not an "official" position, but represents how Jeff personally feels about these things. He truly does all the warranty work himself.
If you've got a nearby dealer, then use them. If not, call Soundings, they'll cover the gaps in US distribution and they're the top Rowland dealer in the US, but they don't aim to step on other dealers. Tell them Dave sent you. Who knows, I may get five-bucks off a cable or something. (I have no "arrangement" with Rowland or Soundings, in case anyone wonders. I paid full retail for my Continuum 500, without any hesitation).
Now that I re-read you post, you might have been talking about listening on approval or a 30-day, money-back guarantee. That's a dealer thing for sure and I don't know a dealer that provides that. If you've got a dealer nearby, then I'd expect that you could use the demo unit over a weekend maybe. (At Soundings, they had a C-500 on the floor, in a system that I knew. Hence, I was very comfortable when I plunked down my money).
Mapman, there are a couple of Continuum 500 offered on Agon. Instead of going to a retailer you may purchased one of these discounted pieces. . . they are bound to be very new. And if the C500 ended up not being your cup of tea, you can probably sell it at no loss.
In line with the topic of this thread, I believe the Rowland 500w/ch Class D integrated with phono would be the best sounding with the Ohm 5s.
I also really like that VAC Phi Beta though!
The thing is I'm pretty happy with what I have at present, so I am not inclined to jump at anything right away even though I would expect a significant improvement on several fronts. Also, I have 2 kids still to put through college....
If something in my system dies unexpectedly, I may be there sooner, dude.
Not sure if I'd go new or used in this case yet.
I think I am definitely going to try to check it out at my closest Rowland dealer when I have a chance. Unfortunately, I think it is about 60 miles away though I get in there from time to time.
Yes, even when you add a passive attenuator,[I am sure you know that all single box CDP has a built in "preamp",}It is very difficult to do it right....
I have had some integrateds - The three best that como to my mind is the Gryphon Century (the Diablo should be far better, The new Burmester Integrated, and my current Acoustic Plan SITAR.
Depending on your tastes, a SET integrated is a nice option, I liked my time with the AN Meishu but sure there are somo other good contenders out there.
I though the problem with DAC "preamps" was the poor quality of the attenuator, as opposed to let's say a Goldpoint Attenuator being used in an Art Audio Carrissa, or a Placette RVC used in a Moscode 400, for example. Good attenuators are not cheap, but if you use a good one, and you are ok with passives, I'm not sure why "integrating" one in an amp would be a challenge to a Nelson Pass or other good amp designers; of course, some like what a tube buffer and tubes in the "pre" can do to the overall pre/amp circuit. It does seem that the use of a passive pre built into an integrated chassis is becoming a very coming design approach, even in some very expensive gear.
It is funny isn"t it?It all seems so simple on paper ,but when it comes to executions it is something else..
Of course we are talking about THE BEST of the bests here.If you want a decent sounding Intergrated[Entry level/mid-fi] sytems,it isn't difficult.
I am talking about REFERENCE systems;i.e Intergrated amp that sound even better than the seperates...I think we are talking about a different level of systems. I am sure ,that The Pass Intergrated will sound good in a lot of entry level/mid system;but to take on the Very best??I do not think so.
If you want the VERY BEST;it is better to leave it to the specialists IMHO.Even Mercedes ask Hella to make the lighting systems for their cars;how difficult can making light be?
Fafafion, have you had the opportunity of listening to the Pass integrated? To which other integrated amps have you had the opportunity of comparing it directly? How did it fall short?
Compare the Rowland Continuum 500 to "the best" separates. It'll stand that test. Final selection will be a matter of taste and priority, but the Rowland will be a contender.
yes I have.it does have the Pass's house sound,but nothing extraordinary.....i think it is more for people who wants to have a taste of pass sound without having to spend so much more.
In short,respectable but certainly far from spectacular[to these ears of mine,I should add]
Do the posters,that mentioned Dussun,Nad,Cayin and the like really believe they are the equivilent ( or better )then the S.O.T.A. Integrated's stated in this forum? Just because you may own or like a product doesn't make it a contender when going against some of the heavyweights. The OP asked "Best Integrated ,Period" While there is no best of anything,please be realistic when with your answers.
Cayin 265ai is one of the best that I have ever heard and I have heard a lot over the years at a lot of shows! Here's a review.. http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_1/cayin-265ai-integrated-amplifer-3-2004.html
Great idea Bill, would you host it on your site? ;-)
If you have a specific problem with my opinions, why don't you address them with a specific complaint rather than these weak little jabs. You gotta knock my head back to get my attention. Right now I have no idea as to why you have a specific annoyance with me.
BTW, plenty of people have taken my advice and thanked me. I'm only offering opinions and suggestions. Of course, I haven't owned 100+ TTs like you, but I have been a musician and audiophile longer than you. Some people think that my perspective is useful to them, so that's why I offer it, always with the suggestion that they followup by listening for themselves.
Bill, if you have a contribution of personal findings to offer to the topic at hand, I know everyone here would welcome your opinion. E.G. what can you tell us about the performance of the Pass integrated? G.
Hi grant, I suspect many of us may be members of the Half Century audio/music club. . . yet, may I suggest to all and sundry we abandon the game of "ma fiddlestock's much bigger'n yourn?" [grins!]
Impossible to listen to an amp without source and speakers/headphones. The question is moot and I hope this thread dies here and now. Try another question, like what's a good integrated that goes well with (insert source, speakers, cables, room size dimensions, shape and treatment). Then we can have a conversation.
I have researched some pretty well though and would say both the Rowland and Krell qualify.
"Best" is a meaningless term without some context around it though. Best for what application?
Without even having heard it however, if you need the best high power SS integrated at reasonable cost, I would say the Class D based Rowland unit would certainly qualify and be of interest for many.
Hi Mapman, I agree completely with you there not existing a 'best'. . . . there are too many system dependencies and equally valid user preferences/priorities. Concerning JRDG Continuum, there are 2 variants of the JRDG Continuum integrated. . . between the 250 and the 500, the latter may in many cases yield greater value of the 2, and sound more refined with greater authority. Reason is its use of ASP1000 module and built in PFC circuitry.
The title seems to be offensive, that was not the purpose, so apologies.... Im just trying to find out experiences with the mentioned integrateds. The starting oint is to find a good integrated and build around it. One can assume that a good integrated should be able to mate "fairly well" with a fine turntable and reasonably priced speakers. The Rowland Continuum 500 seems to be a nice unit, although Im not convinced, yet, that it beats the others on the list?
Hi Perrew, as you said, these are all very good units. . . no one unit 'beats' any other one. In the end, you are the only one who can decide what is right for you, based on price, your speakers, your room, and your sonic/musical prefs. G.
Match a great amp incorrectly with great speaks and the results will be inferior. Match them well and for a reason and you're playing in the big leagues with many different combos.
Just look at the variety of outstanding systems represented on this site? Which is best sounding?
In the words of the great Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson:
I listened recently to the JRDG Continuum 500 was other than a few niggling concerns was reasonably impressed. My review was posted on the forum at www.audioenz.co.nz
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