Dear friends:I really need your helpwith first hand experiences with speaker crossover capacitors founded in next main experiences/tested premises: for a 3-way speaker design, high resolution audio systems, very low distortion audio systems, wide systems frequency range, " zero trade-offs ".
I know that the best capacitor is NO-capacitor, well I need your near to that full experiences with another desired premises from you: audio systems using SS electronics and mainly listening MUSIC through digital sources.
Btw, obviously the amps electrolytic caps just behind the face plate are axial type due that are low voltage and the others that are high voltage are screw type.
In the review of the amps we can read about the mother board but with out any other information and that mother board is located just after the below plate that covers all the amp and as its name describe everything is soldered directly or screwed to it. The mother board has the same dimensión than the amp wide/length. Just a beauty of board design ! At least for me.
Dear friends: Btw and due that is the tech-talk forum please read carefully the design engeneering behind this even today marvelous monoblok Levinson 20.6 amplifier that are the ones I use in my audio system and where I changed this year the 3 different stages that came with electrolytic capacitors.
You can see in the first picture that in the first board behind the face plate at its rigth side two caps and the other 2 caps in this board are at the left side and a little below ( each of this caps are of 10K uf. ), then after the 2 transformers are 2 filter caps with 24k uf each one and the last 2 caps are at the rear of the amps and before the signal input board and regulation/protection board these 2 caps are of 9Kuf but due that I can't find out exactly of 9Kuf with the voltaje need it and temperature spec I put down there a pair of 10Kuf Kemet the other electrolytic caps are Vishay under spec voltage and temperature. This last parameter is way important because the amps runs at an average of 85°-90° continuous.
The amplifiers after half an hour you can't tocuh the heatsinks and even the face plate ( almost 1" tickness. ) that is crewed to inside a metal plate is more than warm I can say hot after an hour and that so continuous high temperature is an enemy to any passive parts but especiallly to those electrolytic capacitors that were running in that way 35+ years in a row with out fail, so I changed for the amps can be " safe " and in good shape operation.
Look, in the signal input board goes 4 resistors ( the signal does not pass through. ) that for some years I wanted to change due that at sigth it looks almost " burn-in " as the teflon board where are soldered so I changed too for new Vishay military spec ( all passive parts in the amps are military specs and are specified that way in the circuit diagrams that fortunatelly I own. ) the temperature spec for those resistors is 250°.
The design was made it mainly by J.Curl and if you read carefully a " bible " for amps design A gem of amps and that's why I still own:
Here why I still own my L 2030 ADS speakers subject of this thread instead to buy new speakers. In my Agon virtual system are all the tweak changes to mantain fully competitive its QS today:
Dear friends : Yesterday by advise of J.Sadurni that's a close friend of mine and horn speaker manufacturer i wired again the pure silver ribbon inductor to the speaker woofers and it's the first time that that " less is more " does not works because with the inductor in the crossover the sound of those woofers arrived to better definition, now it's obvious why ADS used the inductor/cap.
I'm thinking seriously to try the same with the tweeter crossover and take out the caps and let the silver inductor only, I know it will be an improvement and yes I know two that I'm changing the second order crossover shape to first order. We will see what happen but with the woofers really function.
In the other side and following with the Levinson 20.6s like a month ago I made other change motivated by the same reaon of the other chages I did it and that's 35 years old amplifiers working hard.
So the amps have at the electrical power input a board with 4 electrolitic 10K uf caps, this is 40K uf each side. These original caps were made in Germany and out of production but I find out what it need it through athe Germany Vishay manufacturer.
Been the change at the mere electrical input of the amps power supply I really don't have any expectations, I did the change only to preserve in good shape the amps but after a half hour of play I detected/aware of a true improvement that as improvement always is welcomed.
And guess what: all thoseype electrolytic capacitors were ( original. ) and are " by-passed " by the industry standar and famous WIMA MKP-10's.
So figure, today top and expen$$ive audio electronics ( CH, Boulder, ML, D'Angostino, SimsAudio, Hegel,etc, etc. ) manufacturers/designers still as 30+ years ago use those great MKP-10 ! ! ! and for signal the FKP-1, god.
the best Capacitor or Inductor in a crossover speakers is NO CAPACITOR/INDUCTOR. Please let me explain.
Even that I ask for help on the thread and gave characteristics of the crossover speakers and everything I did not took advises on the overall subject.
Things were and are that I decided to make a change in my external crossover and in specific at the corssover filter for the speaker woofers that crossover around 400hz and what I decided and did it is to take out the all silver ribbon ( 2.5kg. ) inductor along the Kemet capacitors down there.
So now both woofers at each speaker are hard wired directly to the monoblock amps and know what: this non-orthodox change makes an incredible/outstanding quality improvement into the whole room/system performance listening levels.
A major improvement. Yes, I'm way satisfied and I want to share here that before this last speaker changes around two months ago I made another change that when I did it I really did not thinking of any quality improvement in the room/system.
Due that my 20.6 ML amplifiers where builded 30+ years ago and even that in all these years the amps were running just fine I decided ( just for common sense. ) to change the power supply filter capacitors in each amp, these are 4 caps each amp ( 70K uf. ).
The originals were Sprague that today is out of the market, I think Vishay bougth it, and I find out exactly the same ones by Vishay ( these were the higher uf caps ) and the others I have no other choice to use Kemet.
Well, I said that I did not expected for any improvement but wrong I was because those capacitor changes in the amps made it a formidable an unexpected quality overall improvement.
Yes, I always said that each single day is a learning one and my both changes experiences were and are a important and critical audio learning lessons to me.
Dear friends : This is where this link belongs and what all kind of electronics/speakers ask for and not the $$$$$ " wonderland " caps ( thank's pauly. ). Please read why " ask for ":
Dear friends : Even that I'm truly satisfied with the very high quality levels that the speakers crossovers caps did it and that I already know for sure no other caps can outperforms it I'm tempted to start a new " adventure " and try a new passive alternative ( at least new for me. ) but I'm truly ignorant about, please let me explain and obviously that if some of you think that is a better alternative then I appreciate the whole advice on it:
I know that I can use inductors instead capacitors. Do you think is a good " thing " to make at least a test? if does not works I always can return to caps. In case that the inductor alternative can be a good option I need advice ( because as I said: I'm ignorant on the issue. ) how to do it and warnings/precautions about.
As I said your know how and skills are welcomed and appreciated.
Dear friends: In the mid-range crossover I used 4 caps in parallel and only in the band-pass/tweeter filters used single caps. The manufacturers in the choosed models are way limited in the values they handle.
Dear friends: After all these 3 months that time passed ( I hope all of you are in good health. ) finally arrived the Wima caps that you can buy by order only ( normally the wait time is around 16 weeks, so I was lucky and have to wait only 12 weeks. ) and the Kemet’s that are always in stock.
The Wima caps were hard wired in the mid range crossover instead a very good Kemet and before these last Wima and Kemet I had there other Wima model, Mundorf, Duelund and the last of the " boutique " ones were the Jantzen Alumen Z.
Just from the begining with these latest Wima happens something truly incredible that I believe only because I experienced and still I’m:
-listening through the Phono MC selector in my phonolinepreamp and with a 0.22mv MC cartridge the room/system noise floor not only goes lower but " disappeared " yes as you read it just: disappeared because at full volume with the 95db high speakers efficiency and my ears at 5cms. from the midrange/tweeter drivers exist no sound at all.
If I switch off the phonolinepreamp there is no kind of sound at all and I told my wife that she switch on the PLP with my ears at that close distance and you can perceive nothing but as if the PLP was switch off ! ! The gain in my PLP is 82dbs. With digital source the listening experiences are impressive for say the least.
I have not an explanation about. Any one of you can figure out why that incredible great fact?
Other great advantage was that the normal female shhh that comes in the recordings just vanish too as the LP surface noise.
Those are some great new characteristics that were added to my room/system and welcomed but the whole quality level perporfamnce goes beyond " imagination " something unexpected that could happens at this very high resolution levels where the boutique caps has nothing to say at all.
Now, that was followed when I received the 28 Kemet caps that in a " crazy " out of the box way of think I decided to use at the woofer? crossover where the value of the cap is 100uf. Well I connected 14 Kemet caps in parallel at each speaker and voila !, it works wonderful.
Finally after more than one year that I posted this thread finally I can say for sure that I find out the:
" BEST HARMLESS/SIGNATURELESS SPEAKERS CAPACITORS. "
and no one of them is " boutique " one that showed his notorious inferiority by a wide margin.
Finally I’m where I’M and where I never imagine could happens.
If you don’t try with the patience and time need it you will never know what you are losting because the " real " MUSIC is truly hidden in your room/system and is crying for you can disclose it.
Dave, I arrived to WIMA/KEMET/VISHAYS caps by just an " accident " because that’s not what I was looking for when started this thread. I was looking for the best high end caps no matters what and that’s what I asked to all those gentlemans experts that partyicipated in this thread.
However through the posts I did not find out the rigth kind of advices I was looking for to my specific speaker crossovers caps values because in one crossover filter the cap must be 100uf.
So and due that I had several Wima caps that I had in the closet when I changed by " better " caps in my electronics I ask my self: Wima?, why not ! . Always thinking out of the box.
You can read the different posts I posted here to understand why I’m HERE and why I’m so deep founded in my today crossovers caps in the same way I was deep founded in the high end ones.
In this video you can take a look on Pass electronics and check at 2:31 minutes and you can see those small red and blue color Wima caps and at the 2:56 minutes those grey color Kemet caps:
One gentleman in this thread pull the triger and tested a Wima cap somewhere in his system but he really did not like it and I understand him about.
Dave, when you have a little time you can try Wima and Kemet caps in your speakers, normally these caps settle down really fast.
What could be your expectations doing that kind of extreme test?:
first your attitude is not wait the same kind of color signature your speakers already have because through Wima/Kemet you can’t find out that color signature improved one, it's not " improved more of the same ".
You will find out a totally different signature quality performance with no " artificial/unnatural " signature. What you will find out is a totally COLORLESS speaker MUSIC reproduction with only the natural color MUSIC has. So, you have to remember exactly how live MUSIC at near field performs because it’s exactly this what you will listen through your speakers.
You can like it or not but this issue is another matters. If your room/system has some kind of non adequated " distortions " ( every kind of it ) in some system chain links you will hear it you will detected because with colorless caps just there are no place to those " distortions " can hide.
Wima/Kemet caps let pass the signal unaltered ( believe or not . ), are direct no was or paper on oil and the like but only true easy engeenering that from many years made it that these kind of caps been and be the overall industries standard even in milatary and aero space applications.
About critical coupling electronics caps use I let you know that almost when started to test the Wima I took a really serious challenge for it. As you know I use the input coupling cap in my Levinson monobloks not only to coupling but I use that cap as the cap ( along a naked Vishay resistor ) to crossover filter for those monobloks can work only from around 80hz and up. So, I was using a 0.033uf V-cap teflon Cu down there that for to much the best cap I tested in that couplink/filter. Well I changed it by the Wima FKP 1 and this industry standard cap outperformed easily the extremely expensive V-cap teflon Cu device.
Btw, I know Pass electronics and admire it from many years since NP was in Threshold even I still own a FET 10 and his active crossover too. I know very well the quality performance level of today Pass phono and line top of the line stages and the designed Essential 360 phonolinepreamp that I own and that was designed and builded by a friend and me even today beats the Pass ones and in my unit in the critical signal boards I used teflon caps and you know hat? I´m thinking to change those teflong caps ( inverse RIAA eq. ) by Wima/Kemet caps. What sttoped me is that the Essential 360 boards are 4 layers and it’s not easy to make that change and the other issue is that each of our units is individually calibrated and not an easy task too because those caps goes along that RIAA eq resistors too. Anyway I want to do it, I don’t know when but is one of my pending targets in my system.
Raul, thanks for the insights. However, be aware that in critical signal coupling positions, Pass Labs uses capacitors from another capacitor vendor that we both know well.
Dear friends all of you : " finally " I think I'm done for now and I want to thank's that I did not received the support and advice I was looking for in this Agon forum as I'm accustom to in other Agon forums when I needed for some help.
All those encourage me to made all the research about capacitors that thinking out of the box carry on to the " poor/humble/ or non-high end " caps as WIMA, KEMET, VISHAY TDK and many others.
That was and is the best even happened to me in all my old audio life because gave me the opportunity to learn really deep with first hand experiences ( several experiences, both with high end-/snake oil caps and the ones mentioned. ) to find out the true and real :
BEST HARMLESS/SIGNATURELESS SPEAKERS CAPACITORS.
nothing more and nothing less.
I finished using WIMA FKP 1 and KEMET along VYSHAY resistors.
For I can get there was more easy to say that doing due that all these type of cap manufacturers offers hundreds of models in their catalog and I mean it.
Is there a best quality performance cap model between WIMA/KEMET VISHAY ? not really. My choice for the different manufacturer models in different speakers crossover filters could been a different choice because the " ONES " from those manufacturers are all at the same level.
Yes, Duelund, V-caps, Mundorf Jantzen and the like are nice caps but far away from true. All of them are way colored, all of them makes more harm than help and all of them comes with very bad signatures and no one has the extremely high quality design and excecution to that design than Wima, Kemet or Vishay where against all them the high-end caps looks as been designed and builded by not amateurs but almost a rookie ones. Sorry to tell it but it's true and if something has a white color then we need to say is white color and not black one.
WIMA, KEMET or VISHAY ( KEMET is the usa answer to the other two germany manufacturers ) are not a challenge for the " high-end heavy pricey caps " but outperforms it really easy, there is no contest down there in any single way or qualioty performance characteristic. No matter what because I try everything.
Now I can say with out doubt that I'm nearest to the recording and that my full compromise with MUSIC it's near to be achieved.
Yes, a very hard task where we need a lot of time ( around 7 months. ) to learn and test items that for me were totally unknowed and where we need the unbiased attitude to do it.
Now I can confirm why N.Pass or D'angostino or M.Levinson or the name you choice use in their top rank electronics caps as Wima and not Duelund .
Dear @paulcreed : I want to tell thank you because you did the effort and took your time to test Wima caps, at least you was the only gentleman that posted about.
Appreciated too what you posted that reflect your honest kind of sound through those experiences.
Yes, dull sounds and I say yes because years ago I was " seated " ( more or less. ) where you are today and it took me time, patience, money, self training and a lot of first hand experiences ( very often. ) listening to nearfield live MUSIC events till I learned and were and are all those fully learning lessons what puts me here and that made that through this thread " things " happens and happened in a marvelous an totally unexpected ways because nothing of these ( Wima, Kemet and the like ) was planned before the begin of this thread. Just Wima was out of question an unimaginable .
I don’t finish yet, maybe at 70% of the end of the " road ". The name of this " game " is: tests after tests and all with the same unbiased attitude but the MUSIC.
Dear friends: Outstanding, overwhelming, wonderful, paramount, astonishing, incredible, marvelous, gorgeous, facinating, jawless, amazing, ligth years a head, orders of magnitude, impressive, stunning, startling, sensational, unexpected, etc, etc.
Does not exist one single adjective that can explain or tell us the unimaginable so high quality performance levels when we use true/real extreme low distortions/colorations capacitors in speaker crossovers: no matters what.
All those adjectives are not enough to explain it and in this new audio world the real meaning of those adjectives is too a NEW meaning and not the " normal " old audiophile meaning.
No one boutique expensive and " stupid " capacitor is good enough even to mention it against: KEMET or WIMA. All are true bs trash.
In the other side the capacitor learning lessons are not finished yet but now I know the true meaning of the engineering levels behind all these true capacitors as those named: KEMET or WIMA and some others down there.
Boutique caps are: one cap for any audio needs, no matters if is for speaker crossover, power supply, low level signals or coupling ( you name it. ).
Look how many kind of caps by its specific work to be used exist ( we can test any of them. ):
AC and Pulse Film Capacitors, , DC Link Film Capacitors, Electronic Equipment Film Capacitors, General Film Capacitors, Motor Run Capacitors, Power Factor Correction Film Capacitors, RC Snubber Film Capacitors, RF and Power Film Capacitors, RF Microwave Film Capacitors, SMD Film Capacitors , Snubber Film Capacitors, Stacked Film Capacitors, Suppression Film Capacitors , etc, etc.
Exist over 56K diferent film capacitor models by several manufacturers and on each specific manufacturer model exist diferent configurations/versions depending what we need ! ! ! !
One for all ! ! ? ? no way my friends.
Till today I tested diferent caps models coming from five diferent manufacturers. What a learning experiences that is a must to have for any true audiophile interested in MUSIC.
@grannyring , Paul erik and friends please enligth us all the engineering behind the boutique and expensive caps. From where came those extremely prices when those caps are heavy colored due to its inherent way high distortion levels.
I already posted here data sheets from WIMA and Vishay and we can take a look inside the Kemet or TDK or AVX sites data sheets and you will understand where belongs the true caps engineering against the $$$$$$ ones.
Gentlemans, the worst blind human been is the one that does not want to see. Don’t you think? because through this thread are posted facts that proves with out doubts the superiority of WIMA, KEMET and the like over those boutique caps where at least in this thread no one of you posted any single fact of its false superiority: where are those facts? ? ?
Dear friends: Always exist people willing to help or give an advise.
Things are that after the two caps set up at each speaker woofer crossover a gentleman " cross my life " and gaves me and advise for use not two but only one film caps, obviously that his advise is not for expensive " junkie " caps but for something similar of the ones I'm testing.
Of course that after my internet research finally I found out and bougth it and I think next week I could make its set up if I already finished the two caps woofers evaluation.
I have to say that I never imagine, even that I looked at, to find out these 100uf caps.
Hi: I imagine rthat knowing that many of you are not only engineers but with very high technical knowledge levels is " weird " that till today no one gives me the asked help on caps: 4-pin to 2-pin operation/conversion.
Could I use a 4-pin radial instead 2-pin radial? in case I can do it please let me know in what way I have to wire the 4-pin to function as a 2-pin cap.
Thank's in advance, appreciated your advise/support.
Dear @bdp24 : That false " dull/lifeless " we experienced happens not only with Wima caps, in the past I experienced several times exactly that and were when changed some IC cables for better ones and when I changed my stepped preamp attenuators for better ones using SMD resistors.
In all those ocasions in the first listening sessions I really did not like it the quality system performance because the " sparkle/transparency " just gone and even I feel that even at the same volume position the SPL gone down.
Well I was wrong because after measurements the SPL's stays the same but with MUSIC not with higher distortions as before the changes.
In the past I owned Threshold electronics and N.Pass used Wima from many years. Yes could be interesting what he has to say but D'Angostino too and several other designer/manufacturers that use Wima devices. Gryphon is other example:
When started I this " madness " after market caps changes?
My very first time was when I owned all Classé electronics and this very well regarded Canadian manufacturer use Wima caps elsewhere. In those old time the designer and the chief engineer and co-owner of Classé was D.Reich that latter on left the company. Well I had good relationship with him and I asked that wanted to change the Wima caps for some boutique/better ( of those times. ) that were the Reliable Caps ones and been a gentleman of few words Dave just told me: do it a favor and don't do it. Even that I did it and the " sparkle " CAME AND THE MADNESS STARTED TILL AFTER SO MANY YEARS FINALLY LEARNED ABOUT. Dave was rigth.
I want to tell you that's almost imposible to accept in an easy way the Wima or Kemet or TDK superior quality performance over the the all those caps inside that " audiophile madness " and it's almost imposible because we are accustom to for to many years.
For to many years we like that false " life " but as Paul said it's what we like it but the real subject here is not what we like it but what is wrong or rigth.
Btw, I still own the Threshold two way crossover that in many ways is similar to your B4.
A real question on the Wima and the like caps is what I already asked my self more that one time:
am I losting music signal information? and according my whole evaluation long proccess the answer time after time is NO.
What I have is that signal information with more detail, presence, true transparency, with music natural color and natural brigthness, better overall dynamic and music transientes and with true life that only live MUSIC has.
Gentlemans here could think that I want to convince them about but it's not that way. I'm only sharing my new discoveries about and I know that my discoveries came not exactly with this thread but through the years fine tunned room/system and was in this thread when all those audio work by my self permited that I can with certainty what I posted here. So the discovery started several years now with out knowing my self.
What made that through the thread I begin to test Wima caps? I can't say for sure other that time to time I like to " think " and take actions thinking " out of the box " in a non-orthodox way. Normally it works for me.
Good post, Raul. The beauty of the bypass test is, when "A" is compared to "B", you aren't listening for a preference, only a difference. That's why the device under test must provide no gain, no filters, no nuthin', just pass the signal through exactly as received. A brutally revealing test!
My First Watt B4 x/o is stuffed full of Wima’s, but the only ones in the circuit at any given time are those selected by the user to get the desired filter characteristics (frequencies, slopes). It can be argued that Nelson Pass selected Wima because of their diminutive size (to use copper/foil caps would take a much larger circuit board and enclosure) and modest price (I can’t imagine what a B4 stuffed with Jupiter caps would retail for!). I would love to hear what Nelson has to say on the subject.
Dear @bdp24 : """
was after absolute transparency, tonal neutrality, zero coloration. Aren't we all? """
absolutely almost all of us.
The main subject here is what all those 3 adjectives really means for each one because we all are accustomed to everything but all those 3 together adjectives. It's the way we were and are " forced " to listen a room/system through our audio life.
Look, @paulcreed posted this after his first hand experiences with Wima cap:
""
I let Wima run for a month or so hoping they would become the cap you say they are, that never happened. They are just as much of a tone control as the boutique caps. Wima's dull the sound which is controlling the tone. I found them to sound just what they are cheap ...""
please note : "
Wima's dull the sound "" ( something as lifeless. )
Well, by coincidence this week in the analog forum and in a thread TT clamp experiences an audiophile with Slaw moniker posted:
" they seem to take some life out of the music.."
that's very similar statement to what paulcreed posted here about Wima and I gave him a response something as this: that what is taking away are just " distortions " and he ask me the why's of my post and this is my answer in that thread:
That's why I insist that Wima/TDK/Kemet or Vishay what takes out/away are those boutique heavy colorations/distortions.
Wima and the like can't improve in anyway the recorded signal quality only let pass through " untouchable " and unfortunatelly for many of us shows us the true quality performance levels of our room/system.
With other purposes but: any one already experienced the reproduction of a recording in an anechoic room/chamber?
Dear friends: in good shape and with wide open mind.
Can it a capacitor or resistor improves an audio recorded signal?, what do you think?
I think it can't improves nothing in the recorded signal, it's just imposible to do it not only for a passive devices but for any other audio item.
A perfect capacitor or any active or passive device can only makes its work by its inherent characteristics was designed to: a capacitor can't works as a transistor, each device has its specific job: nothing less and nothing more.
The best job any active or passive device is to makes its job adding and losting the less to the signal that pass through it: this is the best can does it.
Almost all the audio after market devices " improves " the sound or at least that's what we think and what our experiences tell us.
But if any perfect device can't improves the quality of the recorded signal how is that we always detect/detected so many improvements every time we make changes in the audio systems?
Makes sense to you that things goes normally that way? because makes no sense to me.
So what is happening in reality? what is happening is that the added " information/coloration/distortions/ " along with the losted recorded information now is what we like it: nice overall distortions and through our audio life we are accustomed to have it and we are looking always for " improvements " when it's imposible any kind of improvement could happens.
Ok, nothing wrong with that, we like those nice distortions/colorations ( nothing is perfect. ).
If every thing the same which device do you think makes more harm to the recorded signal: a tube or a bipolar transistor?
For many of you the transistor makes more harm and perhaps you think this with out a real fact/support/foundation when in the other side some people as me think that the device that makes more harm is the tube and with facts in the " hand ". No it's not for open a new " window ", just " thinking ".
Why do you like more tube electronics than SS ones? because are really better or just because its inherent higher colorations/distortions', certainly because those higher colorations/distortions. A the end it's what the AHEE already sold to all of us.
Please take in count that almost every item in audio improves/improved through the years but tubes.
Exist a parallelism between tubes arcaic technology and boutique caps using wax/oil/paper and the like that the radios of 60+ years ago designs.
Now, Wima or TDK caps comes with no wax or oil and the like and are passive devices manufactured only to make its work and nothing more. So these kind of capacitors can't improve our electronics/speaker items in our systems because can't add colorations and does not lost recorded signal.
When we make a change of caps using Wima instead Duelund we want that the sound been improved but this never will happens because what caps like Wima does is that lest pass the signal almost " unaltered " and this says that all the existents colorations suddenly disappeared and this new system sound reality obviously that we don't like it as before and that's why we say: Wima like capacitors are not only cheap but way inferior devices.
@paulcreed Wima can't fulfill your expectations of sound because just can't do it. What Wima gives you is the REALITY of the quality performance levels of your or any room/system. That we like it or not is no issue here, it's only to think about: why I don't like my system with out colorations? and instead to say: " it's that Wima like caps are wrong " why not ask our self:
maybe somewhere in my system one or more items performs with low quality?
I'm sure things are that way and devices as Wima function as a real tools to help for I can first know which links in the system are just wrong and decide the changes for the overall quality performance level true improvement.
Well all those is my sincere take on the whole subject.
Dear friends I already finished my speakers crossover point to point soldered with my new discovery of caps/resistors coming by: Wima, Kemet, TDK and Vishay.
I already gave the time to listen it and already made the " final " tests and evaluation but I will not share my findings due that something unexpected just came to me during my non-sstop research about.
The selection of crossover parts was not easy when you go inside a totally new " land " and when like me you are not very good technically.
The more problematic crossover parts issue was and is to change the 100uf caps and for do it I had to use sic radial caps to achieve 100uf +,- 1%.
In my search to follow learning about on those cap manufacturers I just found out the rigth caps to use only two caps instead six.
I already bougth it and next week will arrives and I will solder it. I only can imagine that could be there an improvement over " something " that I can't even dream how could be improved ! ! ! !
The " discovery " of considered non-audiophile capacitors through this thread remember me what several years ago happened in the analog Agon forum when I discovered or re-discovered:
that DD turntables were better alternative that the audiophile BD TTs, I supported down there mainly Technics and Denon and almost all gentlemans in that forum laugh about and told me things like: you are crazy, you are deaf, you are wrong, you don’t know what you are talking about, that’s a good joke and the like .
Well gues what: years latter every one down there playing/buying Technic, Denon and other DD units and even some of those gentleamsn that laughing about started to make business with plynths for those vintage DD TT ! !
That was the only " funny " experience but same happened when I started the today extremely long MM/MI cartridge thread as an alternative to the sacred LOMC cartridges.
Other example was when I posted that the vintage japanese removable headshell designs couild outperforms the contemporary new tonearm designs. Everybody laugh ( for say the least ) and latter on almost every body bougth at leastone of those vintage tonearms.
Other example was when I posted and latter started a thread about the advantages to use subwoofers in a two channel stereo systems. People told me that subwoofers were only for home theater and not fror true audiophiles and guess what, yes same history.
I can’t now if that could happens with these non-audiophile and non-junk capacitors. We will see.
In this thread like in those analog forum examples gentlemans " only " said NO/WRONG but never posted a single fact or evidence of their criticism: just exactly like here like some of you as @grannyring
! ! !.
Your non at all ellegant " dead silence " runaway of the dialogue main subject only confirm that you are wrong in almost all your assumptions due that you have not a single fact/true evidence that can show your hyphotesis of the boutique ( read junk. ) superiority capacitors over the true humble caps as Wima, TDK, Kemet or Vishay.
Not only those but you never posted in this thread or refuted with true facts all the facts and evidence not only posted by me but that came from other gentlemans where all confirm the superiority of those humble capacitors that I discovery through this thread.
Now I understand why you posted about your " patience " because every time you read a post here you fall in frustration " again " due that you can't in no way to refute/post my posts were with wrong information/facts.
Sorry not for your patience but for your frustrattion that you will overtake when some day in the future you learn through first hand experiences all what I posted in this thread. So long till that day and good luck.
Btw, I wonder not only their premises but the different room/systems where those $$$$$$ capacitors manufacturers made the voicing caps and with which type or recording including SPL used.
Because grannyrings posted: """
with exhaustive testing...""" but he does not posted from where he took that so " precise " sentence.
Bill, I know that like me you have the maturity to have a honest dialogue as this one.
Of course that you can decide to " runaway ", nothing impedes you to stay " dead silence " from now but only the lost of your credibility ( not by other people opr by me that is non-important. ) in your self by your self.
@grannyring : always it's so easy to make a critic or to say some one is wrong when we only have to say it with out need to prove it.
I'm totally transparent, clear trying to be precise ( problems with my english. ) given wide explanations in all my posts in the thread.
Every one knows the whole contecxt/scenario where all things happens and happened because my Agon virtual room/system is wide self explantory about.
Things are that I came with out Wima agenda and not only that but I was a user of several of those snake oil expensive caps, even one gentleman that posted here told that I gave to him my advise with the Alumen Z that I were using and that he bougth by my advise about.
So I'm with nothing to hide and as I said: transparent person.
However and with higher patience that the one you have I read and answer your posts where you said nothing and I mean nothing about the context/scenarios where you proved by your self to your self the supremacy of the boutique caps against the Wima or the like.
Which was or is that/your room/system whole context? and please don't tell me and be a gentleman as I think you are posting that context along your premises used with out saying: "
I’m out like on Shark Tank ". I think that all of us deserve your kidness about.
Dear @grannyring : First than all thank you for your patience: Now:
" I have listened and tested caps for decades. " ,
me too.
"" It is only an opinion based on your ears, likes and music. ""
I totally agree that’s only one opinion where what I like or the kind of music were not take in count. What I like it is non-important or critic in the overall discovery and evaluation of caps.
""" Saying other caps are “junk”, “snake oil” and all the other demeaning comments you make is completely false. """
well please post the facts that can prove your statement because through the thread not only me but other gentlemans posted some facts on why those caps are snake oil. That those facts could be non important to other gentlemans but me this is a different matters. In the other side all audiophiles, including you and me, always are waiting to find out the next snake oil item. Snake oil audio items is the food of audiophiles and this is a true and objective fact.
"""" “Only I Know Best” attitude. """"
in reality that’s not by attitude at all, maybe you took in that way but you can be sure that was not my intention, far away from there.
""""" Countless other designers, modifiers, builders and DIYers with astute hearing Combined with exhaustive testing have all come to a very different conclusion than you. """""
I’m in agreement with BUT their conclusions are way different from mines because my PREMISES ( posted here. ) for all the overall discovery and evaluation of caps is too way different than their premises including yours. Those premises is the key for my true and objective conclusions.
"""""" bashing companies that are passionate and quite experienced with making top grade parts. """"""
in agreement too but those top grade parts are useless for the MUSIC reproduction in any home system, unfortunated.
""""""" Not sure what your motivation is .."""""""
very simple: share my first hand experiences in that discovery and evaluation of those humble caps against the snake oil ones.
"""""""" You like it, but many don’t compared to the better built caps with better sounding materials and design. Wima is not junk . """"""""
better built caps?, please show facts or scientific papers that can prove that wax, oil or paper are better sounding materials and that those caps have better design against the Wima, Epcos, Kemet or Vishay manufacturers that already proved with facts that they are the only proffesionals with the kind of true engineering to make caps that really work doing its simple job.
In other of your latest posts you refered to Wima as a cheap cap but do you know why are so inexpensive caps?:
just think on this many of the hundreds models of those humble cheap caps you can buy it only if you buy 100, 400 or 1K pieces by model, you can’t buy 2-3 pieces.
That was a problem for what I need it to buy.So, Wima/Vishay/Epcos/Kemet sales/sold hundred of thousands of caps that they manufacture and this fact makes that you and me can buy their caps at those ridiculous prices. Tha’s why. Do you know that the wholesalers in some models have a lead time of over 14 weeks and you need to buy hundreds if you want it.
Btw, @paulcreed , I had exactly the same experiences you posted ( but for different reason. ) about Wima caps and I had it with Vishay caps where I just can’t find out the models I want/need it to test so I bougth other models and tested and no single Vishay cap made it/done and I gave the need it time but things are that those Vishay caps were for very specific applicatoons and due that I can’t find out the ones I need it I bougth it but did not work . Can I say that Vishay is a junk? certainly not.
Rigth now I’m in the point to point crossover parts set up where I’m using a blend of those four manufacturers caps/resistors and not because all work as a tone controls, far away from there and I already explained about.
I said almost finish because now comes a really dificult and end part where I need to be really carefully, high patience and move almost like a juggler.
All those because each speaker crossver needs to stay items/devices point to point soldered in between and things are that all the caps I'm using ( diferent manufacturers. ) are radial ones with small space in between pin connectors but things are that the resistors are radial too and this makes things more complicated because that pin connectors sopace in between is even smaller than in the caps.
Additional to all those I'm using caps in parallel because ( example. ) I could not find out 16.8uf caps so I was obligated to parallel caps that been radial along the resistors makes these point to point job a nigthmare.
But things does not ends there because the all silver ribbon inductors ( 4 .) are really big ( like 5cms. wide. ) and needs be located at " big distance " in between and with diferent position angles.
Rigth now I'm making a route diagram of what to doo and the challenges I will find out in that point to point final excercise.
I don't want to use nothing but the crossover items with out any single wire other than the input/output cables that comes from the amps and goes to each speaker driver.
I want to preserve the hardwired tri-wire connection.
Dear friends: I'm almost at the end of the overall caps in speaker crossover evaluation and by second time inside that evaluation I listened again to those boutique/snake oil expensive caps and was only to confirm that are not passive devices for true high end MUSIC home system reproduction.
Perhaps we can use that kind of cap if we have and want to fix a radio from the 60's ( not a joke. ) but for today audio just are useless.
Perhaps those useless devices manufacturers need to remember or re-think again how performs live MUSIC at near field position.
Maybe some of you think that the world industry is wrong and the only people that are rigth are the manufacturers of that kind of $$$$ devices. Could be?, I know for sure that the answer is NO but this is only an opinion/sand grain in an Ocean where almost every one think diferent from me.
Btw, sessions at high SPL to make a cap choices and what I posted about does not means that the natural agresiveness and MUSIC brigthness are the ones that determine how or in wich condition my ears finish at each session.
My take is that at high SPL the caps with higher generated distortions are the least " ears " calm because it's more the kind of distortions with the SPL's what really make the diferences. I check too in diferent sessions at low SPL's and here too is really indicative and help to make the choices.
About type of caps I gone and go for the MKP type but for other kind too. I found out that sometimes non-MKP models beated the MKP ones and the other way around and this fact makes that the number of tests been truly high but always with a learning lesson.
Dear friends: This cap tests evaluation for my speaker crossover is really complicated due that Vishay, Wima, Kemet and Epcos has each one " hundreds " of models for multiple/several applications and inside each application model exist " dozens " of options to as a choice.
Of course no one of that applications says: speaker crossovers, so I'm buying diferent models of the same values and testing it. Not really an easy task but quite learning one.
Now, things are that sometime inside same manufacturer models and sometimes caps from diferent manufacturers caps performs almost at the same quality performance levels and all signatureless.
The issue down there is: which is the best choice?, very hard to say and what I'm doing is to have in different days using same recordings ( analog/digital. ) listen for a while at high SPL ( always same SPL. ) and I decided that the choice will be and is the cap that after eachh listen session let my ears/brain more " calm " and with the less/lower sensation of that time listening to high SPL's.
I decided that because I had not ( yet ) other better alternative. Advises are welcomed.
All those made it that today my crossovers are a blend of manufacturer caps where no one of them works as a tone control. That's why the blend: colorless.
Paul: Before those elctronics first hand experiences I had a similar one with Classé Audio DR-7 phonolinepreamp, NIL 3 ( pre-preamp/headamp ) and the DR-3VHC amplifier. Was from Classé where I take off " dozens " of diferent Wima caps models and values.
A little late but fortunatelly I learned and I'm still doing day by day.
Dear @paulcreed : About dull sound there are several " things " to say about but please let me tell you experiences on that specific issue:
in the past ( as I posted here. ) every time I saw a Wima cap in electronics I take off and changed for a " better " cap.
Why I did it that way? well because that dull sound you talk about and when the " better " cap was soldered then that dull sound almost disappears.
Wima puts me in " automatic pilot " for a cap changes. Sooner or latter we all learn and several years after those kind of " actions " and after overall system changes: electronics, cables, speakers, room conditionined and the like rigth now I'm took in count that several of those way better electronics ( that the ones in the past I used to. ) came with Wima caps not only at the power supply but in the signal path way of those electronics.
The main subject in all those is why these better electronics sounds/performs with so high quality using Wima caps when the before electronics sounds so dull?
easy answer: way better DESIGN. The dull electronics sounded that way because a poor electronic design or bad quality control or bad excecution to those designs. Were not Wima the guilty for that dull sound.
Two examples of those very good electronics designs are Mark Levinson and Krell.
The first Levinson item with the word REFERENCE in its model was the monoblocks amplifier: Reference 20 model that had rave reviews over several years and was an expensive unit.
I don't remember any single comment coming from reviewers or audiophiles telling the Reference 20 sound was: dull, never even today. After that R20 Levinson puts in the market the stereo amp 23.5 model ( Class AB instead Class A like the 20 design. ) using all Wima caps and guess what: the 23.5 beated the R20 quality level performance and this fact obligated to Levinson to re-design the 20 and they gone out with the 20.5 that outperformed the 23.5 and always with those WIma caps.
After the 20.5's came the 20.6's that I own with some self tweaks ( certainly not on the caps. )/modifications. Still all the caps are Wima.
Thwen came the Levinson Reference 33 ( maybe some of you could remember this big size amps. ) and again with rave reviews coming from every where. Then appeared the Levinso first Reference preamp and as usually full of Wima caps and rave reviews too.
Along Levinson Krell was the one to beats and guess what: Krell uses Wima too and Levinson was a very hard competition for the Krell's.
No one told me all those was and are first hand experiences but all the owners and reviewers attest and attested why I liked and like it today. It's not about subjectivity because Levinson/Kreall measurements were second to none.
As I posted Wima can't do nothing for bad or wrong electronic/speaker designs where a boutique/junk caps can do it can " improve it " because are only adding more colorations/distortions.
Behind Wima no single item can hidden all its true quality performance levels.
The main issue it's not me or my system or what I like but the audio item designs. I came in this thread with out any single agenda and as a fact waiting for advises on boutique caps not on Wima or Vishay or Epcos and the like because I already " knew " that between other things those cheap caps just can't do it against all that very high engineering and design/tests ( that I never never seen in the manufacturer sites of these caps. ) dedication of the boutique $$$ " wonderful " caps.
Levinson and Krell are not the only today great electronic manufacturers that use the " cheap " caps almost every one use it.
Yes, Wima/ Vishay, Epcos or Kemet is my audio discovery and yes I understand exactly your meaning in your latest posts.
I wouldn't take it too serious everything is colored. Playing drums, the guy in the booth loves a certain sound, he wants a heavy wallet thrown on snare. That trick has been used a lot, that's what we are listing to a wallet on a drum head with our fancy stereo's and boutique caps. Playing with caps can make you forget about listening to music. Now we are listening to caps. That's why I like my main system I haven't touched or changed anything in 6 years, I know I can make it sound better but I don't. It's has First gen Joseph Audio Persepectives, I don't even know what caps are in there and won't look in there either, they play the same enjoyable reliable music year after year. Let it be. There is something to that. It can be more important than improving the sound. I'm still amazed how the boutique caps can change a system in a very positive way. For others less expensive caps sound better. I owned a Don Allen Preamp he used non boutique caps for the sound all for $800. I have always regretted selling that amp it smoked my BAT vk5i SE with 8 amprex white label. It could play with $5000 and up amps loaded with cheap caps, so who knows what's best.
I have listened and tested caps for decades. Your comments are starting to irritate even someone as patient as me. It is fine you have a subjective opinion. It is only an opinion based on your ears, likes and music. Saying other caps are “junk”, “snake oil” and all the other demeaning comments you make is completely false and just not reality. Please stop it with your “Only I Know Best” attitude. Countless other designers, modifiers, builders and DIYers with astute hearing Combined with exhaustive testing have all come to a very different conclusion than you. We are not all wrong. Time for you to back off of the rhetoric that has turned into bashing companies that are passionate and quite experienced with making top grade parts.
Not sure what your motivation is, but you have crossed the line of professionally sharing ideas and experiences and now come across as a person with an axe to grid. You do not hold sole ownership of truth on this subject. You have a subjective opinion only.
I find the caps you like marginally acceptable at best. Steal lead outs have a sound and it is not good to many ears. You like it, but many don’t compared to the better built caps with better sounding materials and design. Wima is not junk. You are not a bad person for loving them, but just open your mind to the fact that others hear things very differently.
Paul, from where comes that dull kind of sound?, you can be sure it comes from the room/system set up, somewhere in one or more system chain links are not accurated because normally the majority of recordings are not dull ones.
In systemas that I listened with that kind of dull sound performance normally ( not always. ) the main trouble belongs to the overall bass range management and it’s not so easy to fix it but at the end it’s fixed. Both frequency extremes are critical but bass range is more dificult to fix it.
I can’t know where are the problems in your room/system because I’m not there but certainly exist a room/system trouble somewhere.
Wima only let pass with out degrade the signal generated through the system. This kind of caps are signatureless and harmless as no other caps.
Wima or similar caps can’t improve what is wrong, only can tell us that something is wrong. That’s what any well designed item will shows.
The Wima and similar caps design are really simple with out frills down there.
With all respect to all of you makes no sense to blind-trust in Jupiter or Duelund or V-cap instead where belongs the true proved capacitor engineering. Any one can build a colored cap but not any one can build an accurated one.
We can say: " I trust in my ears " ( me too. It’s what all of us do and what that AHEE teached and we all belongs to that AHEE. ) and after my first hand experiences about maybe it’s time for many of you to re-start/set the MUSIC reference ( near field position. ) main characteristics as the home system reproduction ones.
I have a lot of forward work in my speakers crossover caps. Things are that Wima and the like manufacturers have " hundreds " of model caps for very specific use not only 2-3 like the boutique ones where all those caps makes the same but some with silver or Cu or something like that.
I’m in the begin to learn that I can use and need to test several models to evaluate it and to know if can works in crossover or as coupling caps.
I’m already in this road and I feel the necessity to learn about. In the other side down there exist real fun.
Dear @paulcreed : "" Wima’s dull the sound which is controlling the tone. I found them to sound just what they are cheap compared to boutique caps............ I find the exact opposite of your findings. """
As I said I agree with you and gave you some explanation about.
Please look and with no disrespect to you or any one: we know what is the capacitor function in a crossover or coupling job.
Wima as Vishay or Epcos and Kemet and as I explained through this thread are signatureless devices are straigth devices that " impedes " in no way that the signal pass through in direct, fast and free of distortions. The construction and engineering behind all these caps are very similar as it’s its high quality performance level.
The signal after passed by these caps is just " pristine "/mimic as how was before pass through. It’s not that way because I say it but other that all the caps sites information exist the gentlemans that already listened my system after those crossover changes where all them had previously the knowledge on how my system performed before those changes ( some of them are music players. ).
I posted: " sad reality " and unfortunatelly it’s that way and you are comfirmed exactly what I said it in the thread.
Believe me: that dull sound is how your system really sounds/performs and this fact is a good notice for you because you have a big land to improve it using those caps/resistors as the tools you need it for those kind of up-grades that will let you arrive to a formidable improvement in your system and listening experiences.
It’s worth to detect where are the problem at each link in the system chain, it’s not an easy task but a whole system job step by step and at the rigth time use those caps/resistors to know that what we did it was in rigth way to really live the MUSIC system sesions. To many true rewards to name it here. We have to lived.
It’s not just a change of " shoes " .
We have to let it go our bore or lazy to make the overall job and please remember the meaning in MUSIC and systems about ACCURACY.
I know that you can tell me: if ACCURACY is that dull sound I don't want it but those tone controls you are accustom to.
Don't be afraid of accuracy, it's the true name of the game. What is what a electronics manufacturer is looking for: between other things accuracy everywhere and the same for a speaker designer or whatever product. The tone controls are after market devices ! ! ! exactly as the fuses and other true snake oil items and all these is because that way corrupted AHEE lessons.
Dear @paulcreed and friends: From where comes that high resolution/accuracy and high quality performance levels of Wima, Vishay, Kemet or Epcos?
True engineering to acomplish the very strict true industry standards.
Please check any datasheet through Vyshay or Wima and the like caps/resistor devices and you can confirm my statement and look at Duelund or Jupiter and the like sites where exist no true datasheets and obviously no single standard to accomplish for because these is not the levl of quality and the levels of engineering you or me are asking for.
We are asking for just nice colorations, we don't care if that paper/wax/oil is really need it to reproduce MUSIC with ACCURACY and " Zero distortions ".
Common sense. What all of us like has nothing to see/count in what must or should be on the whole passive devices quality performance levels.
Hey !, I already spend thousands of dollars in those junk of caps I know for sure what I'm talking about and common sense says something is and are just wrong with that junk devices.
Please some one of you can prove that the one that's wrong is me not those colored caps. I really appreciated some of you can prove it with facts and where are that engineeering boutique caps that I said and say does not has.
Welcomed, it's in benefit of all of us. Don't be shy or be worry about.
Dear friends: I want and need to clarify that the use of the junk word was not at any moment used as derogatory but only a way to say that those passive devices are useless for the MUSIC reproduction.
Yes, those passive parts are the ones we are accustom to but in reaklity what we are accustom to are not only those devices heavy colorations/distortions but to the intrinsec colorations/distortions of our room/systems especially the audiophiles that are using tube electronics.
Live MUSIC has several characteristics ( that through this thread I posted some of them. ) and a main one has a name: ACCURACY ( please not confuse with analytical. Way diferent.. ). A score from a comnposer comes with that accuracy characteristic and when that score is played the director of the orchestra ( or whatever. ) wants to interpret the composer " feelings " and during that score play everything must be doing with accuracy starting with the rigth orchestra instruments tone/note.
With out that MUSIC can’t exist as MUSIC but only some kind of sounds. Timing, pitch, tone balance and the like means ACCURACY and this word is the name of that game.
Now we want and like the MUSIC listening in our home systems and for me the very first and the main target in any room/system ( no matters what/price. ) is to reproduce that recorded MUSIC as accurated as we can. That means to stay nearer to the recording, nearer to what the recording michrophones picked up at its near field position.
For we can try to achieve those targets we need and is a must condition to put at MINIMUM all kind of distortions/colorations, noises generated through our room/systems.
With out that what we have are only some kind of full colored sounds that we like it becauase we are accustomed in that way for several several years.
Of course that if we do not took care about in the past then it’s sure that our room/system is full of " nice " colorations/distortions and when suddenly we change something in our system: cables, electronic devuices, speaker, passive devices and the like that are more accurated those devices will shows what we don’t want to know and this is our " sad " reality.
It’s exactly what happens when we are accustomed to the analog/LP alternative and suddenly we switch to digital in an analog fine tunned room/system. What happens?: we just don’t like the accurated digital alternative. The same happens when we switch from tubes to SS electronics: we don’t like SS quality level performance because we are not accustomed to accuracy and high resolution room/systems. I already been there, I passed through both experiences: analog to digital and tubes to SS. I had to learn in deep about and decided where is the true MUSIC and why.
We like those " nice " colorations and everykind of distortions but these is not really MUSIC or what the microphones pick up is only what we like it.
Today what’s what I like. Well first than all I work hard in the last 10+ years to achieve a very high resolution and accurated room/system.
A system that can tell me and let me feel and let my mind generates the true emotions that only true MUSIC can do it. That’s why I started to look for opportunities to listen live MUSIC seated at nera field position and understand the importance of MUSIC transiients, timing, natural agresiveness or brithness, power and dynamics as tone in what I listen and for reproduce in home those characteristics we only can do it if our room/system has that high resolution and accuracy levels where any kind of colorations is out of question.
Wima, Vishay, Epcos, etc. are extremely high resolution devices with a extremely accuracy too and with no single COLORATION/DISTORTIONS you can detect, at least till I discover if exist those kind of distortions because today my first hand experiences are really new and I’m still learning.
@paulcreed sure you are rigth and agree with you and if you try Vishay or Epcos instead Wima you will listen the same but that is not a guilty/reponsible of those accurated " zero colorations " caps/resistors devices.
Your system is not ready for those devices , we need to make a lot of work before we can be THERE and really appereciate all what I’m enjoying today. It’s a proccess not an excercise of just change a cap for other one. It’s a learning proccess before Wima or Vishay. That’s why you said:
" They are just as much of a tone control as the boutique caps. ""
with all respect to you I can tell you that those cheap devices are far far away to be a tone control, it’s the other way around. Your system needs the tone control devices you are accustomed to hear. Accuracy is not part of that system yet.
Look, when the COVID-19 " dissapears " any one can be my guest and listen what I’m talking about.
I’m not a hardware lover but a MUSIC one and I need that my room/system can reproduce MUSIC with accuracy.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
