I have narrpwed my choices to these two but live in a rural area and have limited audition opportunities. I would appreciate comments on trdae-offs and sonic comparisons. Thanks, Jeffrey jfteuber@earthlink.net or 805 434 9220 Tel & Fax in California |
For me the Acoustat 1+1,2+2. Model 2 and Model 3.Full range and dont need subwoofer. Downside need lots of power. But the sonics are amazing. |
The BEST is difficult to qualify. All of those mentioned are noteworthy, but don't forget the Audiostatics. Their only real competition is from Soundlab. Too bad they're not more readily available here in the US. |
I think, that ML "Statements" are best to date...mated with multiple VTL "Votans"...Unbeatable! |
GerryLee I wish I could agree with you because price wise they are a fair value but my experience in listening to these speakers from the 1st time in 1986 to the present is always the same and I think the first poster Bdebonis stated it best concerning what they do and ultimately what they don't do for me, that is make the music come alive. I wish I did like them, they are attractive, obviously well made and competitively priced. Of the ribbons I loved the Apogee Stages and of the Electrostatic's Sound Lab impressed me most. And if those Quad's had a bit more dynamics I could probably live happily ever after with them. They REALLY get the midrange right. |
Martin Logan is actually a very late comer to the electrostatic industry. Soundlab has been in business about twice as long, and Quad of England is the unofficial grandfather of the industry. If you wish to brag on Martin Logan for cosmetics and marketing, you certainly have a right to do so. They do a great job in selling their product. They cannot be credited as a breakthrough in any technology that I am aware of. And, on the issue of performance, all of us that are fans of electrostatic design, have our own heros. |
Martin Logan has done more to develope the electrostatic technology than any other manufacturer. Martin Logans are capable of reproducing all the elements of live music that make it come to life: detail, image size, dynamics, and coherence. Excellent speakers! |
Albert: I´m not a designer either but feel this is a point to think about. Will try a couple ideas on this. Regards |
To Sol322. I have always wondered why with all the high end interconnect, speaker cable and accessories, why in the world does someone NOT make high end fuses? Strictly speaking, none of the components in a high end system can survive after bypassing the fuse. Not only would this void the warranty, it is a fire hazard. The reason fuses sound so bad, is the fact that it they are such a tiny conductor, (often the size of a human hair!) they are generally not soldered in place, they consist of metallurgy that is a completely different material, housed in a crappy (plastic) holder that can resonate, and in general, breaks an otherwise fairly seamless connection between the power and its final destination. Yes, they pretty much sound awful! The suggestion about replacing and/or wiring around the Soundlab fuses comes from inside information, and a certainty that there is no risk to the user. The Soundlab only draws one eight of an amp, because it converts the AC power to a ultra high voltage (ultra low amperage) power supply to drive the electrostatic panels. A failure at this power supply cannot cause a hazard for the user in this particular situation. Unfortunately, other high end equipment is just the opposite! I agree with you, where are the high end fuse holders, fuses and connectors to make them work? How about a sophisticated, all copper device that could solve at least some of these issues? Perhaps it is possible to develop a breaker that uses much larger contact area, and of superior materials, that could fail by going into trip mode. I am not a designer, so I guess I really don't know how to get there, but your question is superb, considering the money we all spend on the other pieces in the system, even an "expensive" fuse would be an inexpensive upgrade for all of us. |
Anyone hear listened to the new Quads yet? I listened only breifly at a show and they sounded promising. |
To Albert Porter: One thing that puzzles me is how restrictive are fuses, and your observation of using a different fuse or wiring around it think is aligned with this thought. Good contact and signal transfer (either at interconnects, speaker cables or power plugs, wall plates you name it) really influences the system output. Any recommendation of a high quality fuse supplier that you might know of that is indeed good in this. Your comments please. Regards |
To Albert Porter: One thing that puzzles me is how restrictive are fuses, and your observation of using a different fuse or wiring around it think is aligned with this thought. Good contact and signal transfer (either at interconnects, speaker cables or power plugs, wall plates you name it) really influences the system output. Any recommendation of a high quality fuse supplier that you might know of that is indeed good in this. Your comments please. Regards |
I have heard most of the Martin Logans, and the Apogees. I have owned two pairs of Maggies, and a pair of Acoustats, and lots of dynamic speakers. The Maggies are the best deal for the money of any speaker today. But, the best sounding speakers are without any question in my mind the Sound Labs. Presently, I own the "Pristines", which I believe I will always own as long as they last. They simply sound more like real music in every way. They do not sound like "Electrostatics" in the manner of Martin Logan, and they do not have the really fine, but nevertheless, "Maggie" sound. They simply sound more like music. I have used the Pristines with many different amplifiers and I do not find amplifiers to be critical, except they must be very good amps. Pristines are very revealing of poor components. Set up of the room is however very critical with Pristines and is probably the most important thing to do. It is more important than with dynamic speakers. But, then room set up is the most important factor that I have ever found for getting the best sound from any speakers. If I had to rate the Pristines on their best characteristic, I believe it would be tonal balance, which itself seems an unusual "best characteristic" for electrostatics. They also position bass sounds properly in the orchestra, which combined dynamic/electrostatic speakers never do, and dynamic speakers do less well. I hope my experience is informative, and well taken. There are many speakers I have not heard. |
When I was, by one of my advisors, presented with the opportunity to purchase Soundlab's A-1's and decided to do so without knowing very much about them, if you will, imagine being presented with two of the most beautiful pieces of furniture one could imagine. When I hooked them up it changed my life. I have subsequently found the proper way to drive them full range; everything Albert Porter reports above is beyond truth, and this end of my quest for appropriate sounding Jazz and Chamber Music is over. I may change the front end line source, but to have finished looking and longing for amps and speakers is the reward for thirty years of effort. Dr. West deserves a medal; his (small) staff, when I reached them, were very responsive, leading me to pleasurable experience in dealings/ queries; and if this combination is going to be surpassed somebody is going to have to come out of hiding from somewhere., |
Best speakers I have ever heard are the ones I own quad els57s,these are full range and not hybreds like alot of others mentioned,I find site very good and informative as are alot of american sites I have visited,A friend of mine owns the devas these on his system are amazing,call me biased if you will but I am from the home of quads England. |
Here is my e mail address for responces regarding the soundlab ultimate II speakers. Thanks for your reply in advance. Shane Hofkamp hofkamp585@home.com |
To Carl_eber: Could you e-mail me which amplifiers you heard the Sound Labs with in your 2-23-00 post? I am a new Sound Lab dealer and am trying to learn which amplifiers work well with Sound Labs and which ones do not, and obviously you heard an amp which did not. The choice of amplifier is crucial with Sound Labs. You would be helping me a great deal by sharing your experience with me. My address is audiokinesis@home.com. Thank you. |
I've heard the big Sound Labs. You need a huge room, and even then the imaging is the antithesis of "pinpoint". It's vague and "wispy". Dynamically, they come to life at low volume better than any speaker, but at lifelike playback levels they are DECIDEDLY STRAINED compared to the best ribbons or dynamics in the same price category...AND NOT JUST IN THE BASS. |
If you will post me your e-mail address, I will write you with my e-mail address and phone number. I have Ultimate Ones and have tons of info on Soundlab in general. There is an audio group here and together we own six pair of Soundlabs. |
I am in the process of buying a used pair of Soundlab Ultimate II's and would appreciate any advise or tweaky upgrades available. Thanks in advance. Shane Hofkamp |
Hello, Bpheedeer. I was the factory rep. for Crown when the ES 212 speakers were still being made. I can help you with some information. I know, for instance, that the panels in the Crown were manufactured by RTR, and in fact were the same panels used in the Infinity Servo Static system. I was the Infinity rep. too, and I know that there were at least four updates on the panels (various colors, and stripes to designate) for both systems. The woofers in the ES 212 were troublesome, and did not match very well with the speed of the upper end. You may notice also that the "light bulbs" on the face flicker from time to time. This is a sign that the system is overloaded and is stressed. I owned a pair of these way back in the early 70's and preferred to keep my dynamic speaker system at the time. The infinity servo static was appealing as well, but audio equipment at that time was not well suited for the application on that system. It was not until about 12 years ago that I got interested in electrostatics again. Now, as stated in other postings, the Soundlab IS IT! Feel free to mail me if you need additional help on the Crown 212's. |
While not an electrostatic the Apogee Diva's are my vote for one of the most enjoyable speakers to listen to. I have not had a chance to own these fine speakers but have had many opportunities to listen to them at a local high end sound dealer. Unfortunatly the speakers are no longer manufactured. I have many fond memories of "losing time" by listening to these speakers. When hooked to electronics that could push these demanding speakers the presentation was effortless the soundstage lush. For now I'll have to trudge through life with my dynamic speakers. |
While not an electrostatic the Apogee Diva's are my vote for one of the most enjoyable speakers to listen to. I have not had a chance to own these fine speakers but have had many opportunities to listen to them at a local high end sound dealer. Unfortunatly the speakers are no longer manufactured. I have many fond memories of "losing time" by listening to these speakers. When hooked to electronics that could push these demanding speakers the presentation was effortless the soundstage lush. For now I'll have to trudge through life with my dynamic speakers. |
I have a pair of Crown ES212 Electrostatic with the matching subwoofers. I think they might be the first full range electrostatic system. Great Sound. To bad Crown did not market these better. Any body out there know anything about these speakers? bpheeder@yahoo.com |
Albert I don't know any way to get in touch with you besides posting a message here. Would you e-mail me at zephirin@home.com? I'm interested in learning more about your Sound Lab tweaks. I've done the fuse replacement thing, but not the bypass. I also like Walker Hi-Definition links. Do you know T.C. of Dallas area? |
Jazzman, that last posting was from me,(marked 01-20-00). sorry my name did not print. However, as long as I am posting again, in response to the comments about the telephone at Soundlabs by "Vacuum Tube at SW Bell," many high end manufacturers are very small company's and are sometime slow (or use machines) to answer their phone. I think it would be a mistake to confuse phone response with quality. There are instances every day where I am frustrated by either telephone tag, long hold times or inadequate answers from any number and type of companies. In fact, I would be amazed if Soundlab is your only "less than perfect" telephone experience. The people at Soundlab are wonderful, and even if they are a little slow (only 5 employees) they produce a product not rivaled by even huge companies. I am proud to say too, that they just received the Golden Ear award at the CES a few weeks ago from Harry Pearson of Absolute Sound. I happened to be lucky enough to be standing there to enjoy the presentation. Roger West and his people are wonderful creators, and wonderful people. It's nice to see them receive credit after over 20 years of work, building electrostatic speakers. |
The Sound Labs are wonderous. They have 20 sq ft of panel area. The ML CLSs have 8 sq ft but get you most of the way there for only $4k. The extra sq. ft. of the Sound Labs are for bass and larger acoustical environments. If you can live with 40Hz lows then the CLSs will sound as good as the Sound Labs, with the right electronics (tubes) and in the right acoustic environment, at 1/3 to 1/5 the cost. Service with ML is also outstanding. Sound Lab does not always answer their phone. |
I have not heard the Sound Lab Ultimate One that Albert Porter speaks of, nor his Viva amps mentioned elsewhere, but I do own a pair of (budget?) fifteen grand Sound Lab Millennium One's. This is essentially the same speaker with a less rigid frame. They bring tears to my eyes. Wish I had discovered Sound Lab years ago. For twenty years I designed and built my own loudspeakers. Essentially there are two things a speaker has to get right: Resolution (transient response) and tonal balance (frequency response). Of the two, tonal balance is the more fundamental. Now here's the great secret: You cannot have correct tonal balance without a correct radiation pattern. A correct radiation pattern would be one that is uniform with respect to frequency - that is, equally directional at all frequencies. Impossible with conventional speakers. Possible with true omnis or with full range horns (such as Klipschorns), and also possible with a large curved dipole - which is what guru Roger West uses in Sound Labs. The natural figure-eight bass radiation of the dipole is maintained on up through the mids and highs by the curved geometry (Martin CLS's aren't curved nearly enough to achieve this). This also gives outstanding imaging over a very large listening area. Now, why does radiation pattern matter? Why can't a conventional speaker, or planar magnetic/ribbon speaker, simply be "voiced" for natural tonal balance? The reason is that your ears take into account both the first arrival sound and the reverberant field, and when there is a discrepancy in tonal balance between the two your ear/brain can tell it's a fake. Get the tonal balance the same in both fields, and the illusion becomes so convincing it's scary. So if you have conventional speakers (omnidirectional in the bass, hemispherical in the mids, and directional in the highs) there is no way to voice them for a truly natural tonal balance. Now, remember that resolution is the other critical factor in sound quality - electrostatics outperform everything else in this area, so when Roger West solved the tonal balance/radiation pattern puzzle he ended up with the most intelligent and elegant solution yet presented to the challenge of how to convincingly recreate the experience of live music. Roger went on to refine and tweak this most elegant design over something like eighteen years, resulting in the Ulitmate One and the Millennium One, both variations on the classic A-1. Sound Labs combines the very best of what electrostatics excel at with a geometry that takes them into a league all their own. You can listen standing up or sitting down, anywhere in the room, or even in the next room. There's nothing like them out there. |
I have never been crazy about the Martin Logan speakers with any equipment I've heard them with. Loved the Maggies, both large and small, with almost all the equipment they've been paired with. I still like pistonic drivers for pop/rock, though. Just can't get that "thwack" with the electrostatics unless you get the really big ones (yet), and the big ones have a bit of an imaging problem in my experience. (Makes singers sound like their mouth is 4 feet wide). On Jazz and classical, though, can't be beat. |
The best electrostatic? It does not matter. Compared to any dynamic speaker, they are all musical wonders. I have listened to my Acoustat 2+2 speakers for over 14 years and I have never tired listening to their sound and the wondrous music they produce. They best work with tube electronics that is for sure. |
If you have a large enough room, and sufficient money, the Soundlab Ultimate One is the best electrostatic made. I also think it is the finest speaker made of any type, and at any price, However, at over $27,000.00 for the Ultimates Ones, there are a lot of choices out there. There will be people who prefer other types of speakers, for more and less money, as there is NO perfect speaker. The Soundlab has the magic of ULTRA low distortion, combined with a phase and spatially correct wall of sound that delivers a perfect image. The musical performance appears at true life size, while maintaining the subtleties that define a live performance. Amazingly, they accomplish this on both Jazz and Classical music. Quite a feat, considering the differences in the style and type of performance, not to mention the vast differences in recording techniques. The Ultimates Ones also have the highest resolution of any speaker I have ever heard, their speed and transparency render both instruments and voice so real, that at times, you find yourself laughing with joy. If, however, you treasure extreme bass output (pressure) or very loud SPL, or perhaps the different type of coloration and contrast that a dynamic system delivers, then there are many others (like the Beethoven for instance) that fill that requirement. (In fact, the Beethoven is what I would own if I could not have the Soundlab Ultimates, which I already have.) One thing is certain, all of the pieces in a stereo system are a compromise, no matter what they cost. To help overcome this problem, a great deal of care has to be taken to match all the components so that they work together as perfectly as possible. In the end, this will require room treatment as well. Every listening room I have ever been in had problems that the equipment alone could not overcome, no matter how much was spent. |
Had both Magnepans and Martin Logans. Sorry, I like the Maggies much better. They are more musical and I enjoy them more, although, MLs seem to beat the maggies in all respects: detail, dynamics, and range. But I just enjoy music more through maggies. With the MLs, I would listen to the instruments, not the music. What's it all about anyway? |
