Best Complete HomeTheater USED for $5000.00

>>I suffer when I listen to my music in two channel<<

That's because you're listening with low end home theater gear.

The way to have one's cake -- excellent two channel music -- and eat it, too -- add 5.1 Home Theater capability -- is NOT to start with gear that will make you suffer when you listen in two channel and then surround yourself with more of that kind of gear.

From saffy

Say I got the best used projector under 2K, with a pull-down screen.

Kept my previously mentioned 2-channel system as is - but added an AV processor.

Questions:

-What speakers would I need to add / if any?(Sub-center- Rears)
-How would I connect the AV to my Jadis integrated??
-My Theta DVD does not have Proscan - is that an issue?

My room is approx: 15 x15'

Thank you

With a none-pro scan DVD, I doubt you will like the results, you will get a "screen door" affect. The pixel will probably be very visible unless you are fairly far back, but it may work.

As for speakers, pay close attention to the center it works the hardest, dont skimp here.
Are you using existing speakers for front L/R? If not do you want full range floor standers or monitors?

5.1 or 7.1? 6.1 is a bad idea, only 1 speaker in back will give you cancelation problems.
Another thing to think about is a standard mono-pole speaker, or a wider sound of a bi, or di-pole for surrounds
I would have to say a sub is a must, but if you are ever going to want to get into SACD or other multu-channel music you may want to look into a "fast" sealed-subwoofer.
And when looking into a projector, pay close attention to fan noise, some are pretty loud and annoying at low level play-back.
as always email me if you wish....best regards Chad

>>the center works the hardest<<

Gee -- where have I heard that before?

When I had my system together and I was listening in two channel, people
were always walking up to the center channel and rear channels, trying to see
if music was coming from them. They'd be surprised to find that the front
left and right channels were imaging in the center and throwing ambient
information outside the speakers and in the room -- none of the other
speakers were engaged.

Now, when I watch movies in two channel, people are always asking me where
the center channel is and they're surpised to find that the two channels are
imaging in the center. IMO, that's way better than using a center channel.

Some processors will let you select 4.1 -- with no center channel.

This would let you use your front left and right channels to image in the
center, let you use your highest quality speakers do the majority of the work
instead of a center channel.

Further, the lack of progressive scan isn't that big of a deal.

Progressive scan old technology -- soon to go the way of the dinasaur.

You want a DVD player with DVI or HDMI. Or, you can probably have your
DVD player modded with SDI. This lets you keep the video signal in digital
saving you a digital to analogue conversion.

>>-What speakers would I need to add / if any?(Sub-center- Rears)<<

I would definitely recommend a sub-woofer for movies. If you're going to use
the sub-woofer only for movies, you can get a home theater type sub that will
rattle and thump for you and it shouldn't cost a bundle. If you want a sub-
woofer for music, one that will blend with your Caravelles, you'll want to
spend more and get one that is musical. If you go with 4.1 as I suggest,
you'll also need two rear channels. These will not be doing all that much and
home theater is not as demanding of quality gear as music, so you could get
by with inexpensive rear channels. Try to demo them in home to make sure
they blend with your front left and right channels.

>>-How would I connect the AV to my Jadis integrated??<<

One way would be to connect your Jadis to a two channel pass through in
your home theater processor.

>>-My Theta DVD does not have Proscan - is that an issue?<<

You'll probably want to either add SDI to your Theta or update your DVD
player to one that employs DVI/HDMI. If you mod your Theta with SDI, you'll
be able to use an external scaler, which will give you high quality video and
you can run other things like cable TV through the scaler, too.

Theta still lists the David in its museum.

They offered an SDI option at one time ---

Further options include: 4:2:2 Serial Digital Video Out

http://www.thetadigital.com/museum/david2/prod-info.htm

I don't know if Theta would mod the unit with SDI at this time or if you'd have to take your unit to someone else -- several people do SDI mods. This is something you'd have to research. See who will mod your Theta David, how much the various people charge, and who has the most elegant solution.

This would allow you to keep using the David as your digital transport for CD's and DVD's.

Here is a company that offers SDI mods, but doesn't specify Theta David as a unit they mod. They charge $375 for the mod. That might give you some
ballpark idea of what it would cost for the mod.

http://www.hotrodaudiomods.com/dvdedvd3910.html

If you add SDI and an external scaler, you're talking about spending
somewhere around $1,500. On the other hand, if you are not married to the
Theta David, you could probably sell it for around $1,200 and replace it with
something like the Denon 3910, which costs around $1,200 (stock). The
Denon 3910 is a universal player and has HDMI, which will also pass the
video signal in digital, saving you a digital to analog conversion, giving you
high quality video. It will also output SACD and DVD-A via Firewire.

Since you could probably sell your Theta for around the same price as the
Denon 3910, it would be a wash and that would conserve your budget for
other things. (You may want to mod the Denon -- I have heard great things
about the APL mods!)

Here is a projector you should put on your list --

Optoma H77

http://www.visualapex.com/LCDprojectors/LCD_projectors_details.asp?chPartNumber=H77&MFR=Optoma

Hi
-Ok So I like the projector idea.
-Think 4.1 could make sense for me - But do I under stand that it is simply 4-channels/speakers with a feature that provide a center sound stage?
-Does the Denon mentioned take care of the graininess of the projector image and still allow me to play my CDs on a reasonable listening level?
_What happens if I get rid of my Jadis? What 4.1 receiver could i get for under 2k used - or I am I crazy to go there?

Using a projector will be a big plus, I had my 55" Rptv between my speakers when I first went multichannel but switched to a projector a good while ago. This was a huge improvement in soundfield and gave me much better center channel options.

My system works fine with and without center channel in my large room, I have listened both ways many times...using my center sounds better every time I make the switch back.

I also play a lot of multichannel music on my system, I prefer the use of my center channel.

Many reasons not to use a center speaker and just as many reasons why you should. In the end...go with what works for you and your room/system.

I use a pre/pro for decoding movies and multichannel music playback along with a two channel tubed preamp for stereo only playback in a unity gain configuration.

You could keep the Jadis (if it's doing a good job) and only add a 3-channel amp along with a pre/pro...the Jadis would be used for all 2-channel listening as in my system. Speak with Jadis regarding that option.

I suggest two subs (I use three)...don't buy hometheater subs for a combined music/movie type of system...you will not be happy as they will sound out of place when used with music...

Dave

As for "adding speakers", I recommend against it, unless they are clones for your mains. It's never good otherwise, nor believeable sonically. Tonal changes shift from side to side, and it's distracting, pulling you out of the movie. I vote away from adding mis-matched speakers, and even staying with 2.
The other choice is to get 5 matching high quality speakers, which you also like for your music needs. This is a bit more tricky. For you, I'd just do the 2 mains (no one will complain, trust me), cross over to a good pre/pro and subwoofer, and you're done.
As for projector, this is really the only way to go for high end home theater.
May I highly suggest, if you have the room, to look into used CRT front projetors! These big beasts can weigh between 110-230lbs, but still produce the best world class pic you can get basically! Black is black, best contrast, no scan lines/pixel when done right, and they're dirt cheep comparatively now.
Because they're almost obsolete new, you can pick up a superb referbished unit, or one with low hours for less than 10% of original cost most often! You can pick up a world class 720p capable projector for $1000-2500 if you look carefully. The crtcinema.com guy's, Curt Palme, and the sharktech guy's all have some good deals, back up and service what they sell, and know they're stuff.
Otherwise, your compromises are Single chip DLP "rainbows/color flash distractions/headaches for some, and "washed out blacks" for LCD. Lcos needs to come down in price, but that's a good technology substitute. Otherwise, 3 chip DLP is way expensive. Thus CRT makes the best pic for the buck, hands down...if you can deal with the size.
good luck

Clones of your main speakers would be ideal, but if you can get smaller, less
expensive speakers in the same family, you should be alright. Star Sound
makes a less expensive monitor, the APLHA -- this might be a good
candidate for your rear surrounds. If they let you demo the speakers in
home, you can listen and judge whether they blend with your Caravelles.

You will have to decide how serious you are about home theater.

One of your big decisions will be whether you want to use a home theater
receiver or go to separates -- a surround processor coupled with outboard
amplification.

>>-Think 4.1 could make sense for me - But do I under stand that it is
simply 4-channels/speakers with a feature that provide a center sound stage?
<<

Your front L & R will image in the center, locating the voices in your screen.

>>-Does the Denon mentioned take care of the graininess of the projector
image<<

One of the factors in the graininess of your image is your room size. You
want a projector that will throw an image large enough for your preferance
but looks good from your viewing position. In a 15 by 15 room, you will
likely be sitting around 10 - 12 feet away. You might want to consult with an
acoustics expert to locate your best listening position in the room. If you sit
too close, the image will look grainy. If you use the Denon 3910 via HDMI to
an HDMI equipped projector, you should get a high quality video image, but
no matter what you buy you need to sit far enough away from the screen.

>>and still allow me to play my CDs on a reasonable listening level?<<

I have heard good things about the sound of the Denon 3910, but you should
definitely try to audition it to see if you can live with its redbook playback.
Make sure the store has a return policy so you can return it. I have also heard
great things about its music playback after it has been modded by APL.

>>_What happens if I get rid of my Jadis? What 4.1 receiver could i get for
under 2k used - or I am I crazy to go there?<<

There are no 4.1 receivers. Most receivers can do up to 7.1. But, many of
them can be set to 4.1. Your decision will depend of your ears. Personally, I
would not be happy listening to two channel music with a home theater
receiver as the hub of my system.

As for receivers under 2k used, you could probably get a top of the line
Pioneer receiver, the 59Txi. You'll want to audition the Pioneer, Denon,
Marantz, Harmon Kardan and some others to see which has the sound you
prefer.

Projector ------ $3,000

Receiver ------ $2,000

Speakers ----- $1,000 (rear surrounds)

Sub-woofer --- $1,500

DVD player --- $1,200

----------------------------

$8,700

If you sell your Theta David for $1,200

Your total is somewhere around $7,500 including the projector.

You can save money by going with a cheaper sub-woofer and you should demo the Jadis against the receiver to decide whether you want to keep it or use the receiver exclusively.

Ok - interesting 7500 system
But if I sell I sell my jadis wont my 2 channel bliss go down the drain? - If I keep the Jadis can I just get away with a pre / AV?
I suppose the DVD player change is less critical - plus added value of much better picture.
Do I need to spend used 1500 on a sub woofer- if only used for movies?
What kind of quality can I expect form a used $3000 projector?
Is $1000 really necessary for used rear speakers?
Sorry if any of these are stupid questions
Saffy

you dont need a $1500 sub, nor do you need to spend 1000$ for rears, but I wont comment on projector, only to say I hope you have a very dark room for it.
I would think you could get both a sub and rears for less then $1500 total used, but I will leave it the know it alls to comment on that

>>But if I sell I sell my jadis wont my 2 channel bliss go down the drain?<<

I would think so.

>>If I keep the Jadis can I just get away with a pre / AV?<<

This is why I would suggest keeping the Jadis and seeing if you can live with a receiver as your hub. Personally, I couldn't. If you sell your Jadis, you may want to go with separates -- a surround processor and outboard amplification. This will depend on how deeply you want to get into home theater and what trade-offs you're willing to make.

>>Do I need to spend used 1500 on a sub woofer- if only used for movie<<

If it is only for movies, you can get by with a much less expensive sub-woofer, but if you go with an inexpensive home theater sub-woofer, you will not be happy with it for music -- your choice.

>>What kind of quality can I expect form a used $3000 projector?<<

The projector I suggested you put on your list is supposed to be excellent quality and with appropriate adjustments for your room size. But, you will have to research these.

>>Is $1000 really necessary for used rear speakers?<<

No, you can get used rear speakers for much less. I was estimating the price of the ALPHAS, since those are in the same family as the Caravelles.

>>Sorry if any of these are stupid questions<<

There are no stupid questions. I just wanted to get the ball rolling and I would rather start with a budget that is high and come in under it -- I always feel better that way. That's why I wrote that you can probably come in under that budget, but now you have a starting point.

Like I said, you like your 2 channel system, why change it??
just add a digital AV pre/pro (looped into an auxilary input on your existing 2 channel preamp(switch to that input for movies), and a subwoofer. You will keep the integrity of your 2 channel you like intact, and have added the HT part...simple really.
If you start over, you'll have a more difficult time "getting it all right" starting over. Plus, more complication, diffuculty in placing all the other speakers for good sound(even,matched sound, and balanced). You'll, in the end, just have "more speakers", not necessarily better.
Of course, I'm not sure what your speakers can do for movies. Some audiphile speakers are "too laid back" and uninvolving for movies. They don't jump out and grab you, but rather make you lean into the movie, and are distant sounding, not upfront and pressent!...this is critical for an effective movie mix...I don't care what any audiophile say's...it's booooooooring. (been there, done those...)
Still, I'D CHANGE ONLY ONE VARIABLE AT A TIME!!! This is the right way to do things. You go changing too many things at once and you don't know what you've got going!!!...or where the problems are.
good luck

Hi
In a 4-channel system - without a center speaker - can the whole familly enjoy the center audio,or is the "sweet spot" limited to 1 or 2 persons?
Thanks

Saffy,

Buy a third Caravelle as the center, get some used totem model ones for the rear they are a reasonable timbre match, sell the Jadis and the Theta David get a solid Pioneer DVD player which will make a nice digital transport and give you a great picture this you can upgrade later., buy a used Meridian Prepro and get an Audio Refinement Multi-5...Finished Build a Parts Express 12" subwoofer for movies and music.

Maybe next year get your tubes back, but for now the family's happy and you're not sufferring. Who know's you may like it better than the Jadis/Theta. I've seen a 568 take out more ambitious equipment than that. Trifield is a new experience so hang out on the Meridian Forum and learn about a new way to listen to 2 channel music. Everyone there was converted so it can happen to you.

Do I have to defend?

If two caravelles are great why not three? The Meridian 568 smokes the theta as a DAC but you'll likely miss the Jadis but for the money the audio refinement is a huge overachiever and I believe will sound great with the Caravelles. I've heard AR Multi-5 run a pair of JM LAbs Alto Utopias and the matching center, and it was good and did not sound grainy or edgy. So I think you'll find it acceptable.

I thought I posted this system originally I'm sorry for the oversite. Like I said in my earlier posts, when you talk to people who cannot get their multi-channel to be better than their two channel. (RSBeck, I own ATC's you own Monitor Audio, who's midfi now?) You end up with a convoluted system and not so good results and clearly more questions. Because there is no focus or commitement to making the most of this investment. Instead its about patching things. Do you want a patched system or an integrated one?

A Meridian/Audio Refinement systems will eclipse the Jadis/Denon system. That Denon isn't that good sounding and the Jadis can't change that.

Gotta let go of the ""HIFI Cred peices" for now and bulk up on the speakers and get a great DAC/prepro. No compromises. Now that you have a multi-channel system make the best of it! Don't sit in denial and and wax nostalgically for the past... make the best of your new system.

>>RSBeck, I own ATC's you own Monitor Audio, who's midfi now?<<

Well, if you're starting a pissing contest, I have no idea what you're putting up against my system, nor why you feel the need, but if it is what you have listed, you've got a ways to go before you should pull down your zipper. I don't see anything in your system that I would consider owning instead of what I have. Everything you have would be a huge step down from what I have. I think you're better off trying to sell your stuff without starting up this type of stuff. But -- hey -- that's just me.

RSBeck said; 6-11-05

"That's because you're listening with low end home theater gear."

Figured you might have a short memory on why I posted that comparative statement. But I wanted to clarify that I wasn't listening to lo-fi gear and infact it's as good as your system, even in two channel. ATC SCM-150's was the exact speakers, to videe these speakers(www.theavarchitect.com)

Be nice if you had pictures.

Anywhooo, what do you think of my recommendation to Saffy? Got any insite how this approach is flawed, its the easiest to install and the most obvious in my opinion. your input would be appreciated.

The intercchange went like this --

You wrote ---

"I suffer when I listen to my music in two channel."

"That's because you're listening with low end home theater gear."

>>it's as good as your system<<

You've upgraded since then, but going by your listed system, you are welcome to think a system that cost a fraction of mine is just as good, but obviously I don't share that opinion.

Price range aside, since I do not suffer when I listen to music in two channel, I think your own indictment of your system is enough to refute your argument.

>>Got any insite how this approach is flawed<<

I'm not sure how you achieve what you suggest on Saffy's budget.

You're short on budgetary details.

Great - gentlemen - I,m really learning a lot from all of you.
Saffy

Regarding the absence of a center channel -- I would guess a four channel system would work similar to a two channel system. With my two channel system, one need not be in the sweet spot to enjoy the phantom center. I think this would depend of the speakers. If I were you, I would try it with four speakers and if you feel like you need that center channel, see if you can demo a center channel speaker so you can hear the difference.

Hi
Out of mostly practicality, I'm toying withe the idea of plazma.. What of this Vizio product out of California - they have a 46" for under 2-grand...

Does anyone know or recommend this brand?

Also, what features are "must haves" in Plazmas?

I'm looking at a Bose "lifestyle" system, with the idea of putting my home theater in a differnt room, and keeping my 2-channel independant.

Might seem like a cop-out, but I see some merit in practical terms as it also provides for "Musac" in differnt rooms in my house - using their digital storage sytem and multi-room capabilty - for non critical
listening.

I get to continue to build on my 2-channel, while having a relitvely low cost theater in another room - while i wait for the costs of high quality projectors or LCDs to drop.

Your comments?

Thanks

I picked up a complete 5 speaker set of speakers at e-bay the other day (Aurasound Aura). These are no longer made by Aura Sound and were closed out at UBID for very cheap prices.

They use a monopole Linaeum tweeter and 6.5 inch mid/woofer...I bought the complete set for $200.

I gave these a trial run last night on Lord of the Rings which has a very demanding soundtrack...WOW! They don't do deep bass as you would expect from their driver size...plenty of bass for small/med size rooms though IMO.

A couple of the smallest HSU subs at $600 for the pair (direct from HSU) would place this system cost at under $1,000... and holding it's own with much more costly systems.

Why? because the monopole Linaeum tweeter in these little gems is first rate and has no competitor at any where near this price range

Keep a sharp eye at Ebay and you will be well rewarded!

Dave

Hi Again
Couldn't in the end bring myself to buy the Bose cr.. -especially after I researched it.

So went to THX digital receiver, with HDMI Plasma / DVd, and these nice little Gallo speakers with sub.

Wow - to think I even considered the Bose