I think it's all personal and relative here. I mean, everyone has different gear out there, everyone!..even the audiophile/reviewers for magazines have completely different setup's.
That all said, you could go a number of dirrections. You could do the 2 channel w/subwoofer and pre/pro setup, which many audiophiles do. This setup makes sense for 2 channels guys, or those who wish to keep things simple, but want to spend the bulk of their money on heigher end gear in a certain budget...which may be right up your alley!
All you'd need to do is keep it 2 channel (either full range or satalite fronts), add a MUST NEED subwoofer, AND a dedicated A/V pre-pro. This is a MUST for properly processing DD/DTS! You can't get the same results by simply processing in the DVD player or source, and going straight to your 2 channel preamp. This is never as good.
The next audio alternative is of course to invest in some high quality satalites that will do justice to movies and music both, IN YOUR ROOM/SETUP! The speaker selection is key/paramount here for best results, far more than the gear!
If your setup is such that you can sit closer to the speakers in relation to the ceiling and sidewalls, or you have very good acoustics and treatment in the room, then you can get away with higher end traditional music monitors(i.e., tweeter over mid/bass drivers) IF NEED BE. But I'd still like to see multiple driver arrays or horns and or more active designs to maximize the focus, dynamics, solidity of image, impact, speed, and pressence that you NEED for a properly potent home theater system! Most people fall short here, and don't know what they're doing.
If you sit back further from your setup, have low ceilings accordingly, and or have to have your speakers near the sidewalls to boot, you must consider the above mentioned Dappolito, THX, Horn loaded, or other more "controlled focused" designs. Otherwise, you need major acoustics in place to negate first order reflections from destroying your sound!...and they will do just that. You can thus look foreward to a soft, un-involving, smeared, dynamically wispy, faint, and generally confused sound if you don't take care here. (20 years and 6 high end audio stores worth of experience talking here).
All that considered, you have to ask yourself what you're room/setup would involve before you can properly adress your speaker choices in my experience...this is critical.
Your choices also depend on HOW BIG YOUR ROOM IS!
Narrow down your room considerations, and I'd recommend "no lose" choices for your needs, sure. |
"...unless you are Amish, no 2 chanel can give you that theater feeling" (Chadnliz)
I dissagree. I personally know that a QUALITY 2 channel setup is much better than 5 or more channels of mediocrity, ANY DAY!! Again, I speak from over 15 solid audiophile years, and from working in 6 audio chain stores, having done custom theater as well. Setup is key, but quaility is better than quantity when it gets down to it, if you ask me.
Yes, multichannel movies is better when done right for the effect. However, you can still maximize a great experience from 2.1. Things just must be done right.
"...One more thing, for gods sake dont follow the 80HZ THX cross-over bullshit, that is a "standard" set for budget reasons, not performance. (Chadnliz)
Once again, THX spent thousands of hours of research coming up with this setting, to know that Chadnliz is WRONG!!!
I've done more theaters than most any here will ever think of doing in their life time, for a living as well as for personal pleasure. And I find that the 80hz setting is a superb AND MOST OFTEN NECESSARY setting spot for a crossover!...given the nature of the gear selections, at the very least!
Even large comercial theaters, utilize 118 db horn drivers mated with 15" mid/bass woofers, that mate 18" active subs at the 80HZ CROSSOVER! Why? Because it works!
Most typical anemic, low sensitivity/efficiency passive crossover speakers for home use NEED ALL THE DYNAMIC HELP THEY CAN GET!...I promise. 80hz helps (especially receivers)even separates based speaker systems get the best dynamic range possible, leaving an active sub to handle the more demanding bass!
You can dink around all you want with either full range, 40,50,63,or whatever crossover points. But day in and day out, a properly integrated 80hz system will smack the hell out of a system if you do it right!
I garantee my systems set to 80hz will stomp most any typical audiophiles setup running "full range" from the mains! It works.
Bottom line, trust the people who do this for a living, get paid millions, earned "Oscars" for their contributions, and are used to mixed the biggest block busters around! THX is doing just fine if you ask me. And I own mostly audiophile stuff, but respect and know what THX can do in the right hands.
It's the "user error" on the other end that usually makes ANY SYSTEM fall short...Which is why you pay pro's to do it right in the first place...user error and lack of skill/experience. |
Dadnliz/others...you know we wouldn't be having all these problems if everyone would just learn to worship me.(lol)
I still like his choices of either high end two channel and sub/pre-pro combo or multichannel higher end speakers that fit his room/setup needs. Did we ever discern his actual room and setup? I must read back...doi! |
"...the 80HZ was set-up for a standard and was budget minded to keep theater owners happy, are you telling me that if you had say a Legacy center speaker wich can cycle down to near 20HZ it would be better to run it small and crossover at 80?" (Chadnliz)
Yes, I'm saying just that! Having not even heard that Legacy center, that same 20hz capable (maybe strong enough for music, but not for synthesized movie effects of high dynamic ranges!) center channel will indeed sound more dynamic when only asked to run as "small"!!! I'd do the very same on full range Wilson's or JM Lab's Utopia's, you bet!!!!!
20-80hz will sound much much more dynamic and potent on an ACTIVE POWERED SUBWOOFER system instead, yes!!!! I've seen this time and time again! Your passive crossover Legacy speaker is like any full range speaker, in that it has the dynamic limitations that other SIMILARLY DESIGNED passive home audio speakers posses. And that's limitations in the inherent "LIMITED EFFICIENCY PASSIVE DESIGN!" The amps driving the bass in these systems is limited in the control of the drivers by the passive crossover in the speakers, not to mention the amps have to usually driver the midrange and tweeters, further limiting efficiency!!! This is why taking the same speaker, and letting the amps drive the upper bass info on up, and diverting the much too demanding bass to a MUCH MORE CAPPABLE POWERED SETUP, is the better dynamic option!...and THX knows this from experience...I happen to as well. (again, I've sold Wilson MAXX's, Dunlavy SCVI's, Thiel 7.2's, Etc). Of course, the subs have to be up to the task, and proper for room size. Basically, sure, the Legacy will likely have good bass for music, but will be behind by a lot with competing powered 15" active powered subs! They're just much more dynamically capable!
Ok, lets review...the Legacy 20hz center with dual 15" drivers vs. even the lowely paradigm Servo 15" sub!!!! The Servo 15 active sub stomps the dual 15"'s in the Legacy!..garanteed!...GARANTEED! I've heard/seen all this before. Been there, done that!
I've been to all the shows, sold it all at 6 stores, installed it all, and have heard it all at way to many audiophiles homes to know different! Passive speakers doing bass vs. active speakers doing the same deep bass...victory goes to the "quality" active sub setup, every time! Now of course we're talking about power output and dynamic range/ability...not musical speed, "Q", and accuracy. But for movies, the fact that the audiophile speaker is bottoming out and distorting from too much dynamic bass info down low, negates all that "accuracy" anway! The stuff mixed into movies is just too powerful and demanding for typical speakers. That's the way it is.
So, you bet ya!..I'd take that same full range speaker, and have it sounding SUPER POWERFUL and dynamic in no time, crossing it over right, and setting it up well. Playing it"FULL RANGE" WOULND'T BE IT, I garantee it!
But hey, try for yourself.
As for Michael Jackson and THX, millions, maybe billions regard them as authorities on what they do. I guess the same can't be said for us! . The difference between us however, is that I do High end home theater/audio/video systems for a living, and have worked on several six figure systems, and am a respected expert in this stuff. Still, what ever floats your boat....it's all good. Some's just better than others if you ask me.
I've done this far too long to be persuaded by an audiophile with an oppion. I've meet too many of them for the last 20 years. And I can still put together better systems than most any I've met. |
Let's review...as long as any monitor or full range passive speaker is coupling well down to 80hz and that critical bass reigion, and they are using strong capable powered subs(good/well placed/and enough of them for the job) that are in phase, properly placed in the room, matched in volume, and mated well up to 80hz in the room, you will have absolutely no problem in getting superb dynamic capabilities and range from that system! This setup will yield about as good of a dynamic result as is possible from your typical speaker.
Ok, maybe you could take some very efficient and capable speakers (ok, maybe a Legacy or big Klipsch/horn speaker), and cross em over at 60 hz or so, as a bit lower crossover, and still get very good results. And yet, the 80hz still works superbly, and probably better! It's just a good point to crossover. Granted, the speakers need to be set up well, and couple well at that frequency to avoid the "hole in the middle", along with proper PHASE and volume matching!!!!
Ok, some subs are not so tight and capable up that high musicaly, as better speakers with a tight damping factor, granted. But this is easily traded off with the dynamic output and efficiency increase by a properly crossed over setup for dynamic DD/DTS movie playback!!! Your otherwised looking at a dynamically challenged and enemic, easily distorted and strained home theater experience at normal (approaching THX, which is too loud, I'll conceed) levels. Ok, some low volume listeners will argue they'd rather stay with the full range from their audiophile speakers, than compromise with a bad subwoofer setup. I find differnt, and would never go back. The exception is when I'm running large speakers with powered subs/drivers built in, to properly control the speakers for movies! This is all good of course. Still, for the proper dynamic range of an all out home theater system, this IS NOT THE WAY TO DO IT! But to each his own.
You know, back to THX, I still remember back in 1995 when DD/DTS was first being released on Laser Disc. In a store I was working in, Boston Acoustics came in and setup their new dedicated THX sup/sat system in our shop. The system was set up then for only DP Logic. We had DD/DTS Discs playing on our regular speaeker systems, and that was an obvious software improvement over analog recordings for movies, yes. Still, the THX setup was CLEARLY more dynamic, involving, coherent, imaged better, had a better envelopement of soundstage and cohession, that the other speaker sysetems in that same room couldn't match! There was just something (although the overall refinement and quality of the speaker was behind audiphile purity for certain) compelling and "right" about the THX setup that had GREAT POTENTIAL for movie playback...you couldn't deny!
I've since come to realize that DD/DTS through a WELL SETUP THX system is a formidable set of tools indeed!...and probably what most homes should use to do movies right if you ask me. But then, you can still screw all this up with "user error", like any multi-channel "ill-set up" system from an average consumer! Infact, regardless of speaker choices, most people get it all way wrong when it comes to setting up even 2 speakers, let alone 6 or more!...and you can take that to the bank!!!
ALL the THX speaker systems do is give a person a "fighting chance" at taming room relections from ceiling to floor, provide good horizontal dispersion, offer greater speed, impact, dialoge inteligibility, and involvment from the speakers! Dual mid/bass and multiple tweeter driver arrays are very effective at delivering all of the above for a movie soundtrack! Other stereo speaker designs mostly soften this experience, and sacrifice (inherently) what's important to a movie mix! YES, with the right speaker selections as tools, you can get just as effective, if not better results using "non-THX" stuff, sure. But this doesn't negate the potency of a good THX design in most applications for an effective home cinema system!
I don't care for THX bashing, even as an avid audiophile who's owned some expensive 2 channel gear. THX is good stuff, works well, and does what it should...giving consumers good tools as foundations. |
Saffy, have you formulated anything regarding the direction you think you'll go? |
"...you wouldn't buy an expensive turntable and put a $19 cartridge on it an expect greatness. How can you only buy 2 out of 5 speakers and expect greatness? Wasting your money with that mentality."(cinematic systems)
This is analogy is off track IMO. It's not nearly the same thing comparing expensive tables/cheep cartriges with 2 vs. 5 speakers. We're talking quality vs. quantity here...apples and oranges!
I currently run a 5.1 system that's being upgraded as we speak to 7 channels plus sub (there's no such thing as true 7.1 yet folks...at least that I'm aware of). And yet were talking about 7 channels of high quality, superbly integrated, superb sound quality, if even a more modest separates system in a small room. Still, I've owned just as satisfying of a system with a 2.1 channel setup,using higher end gear, with 2 channel pre, tied together with an AV digital pre as well for movie watching (a necessity).
Different, but they're both very effective and rewarding.
You DON'T NEED TO HAVE MULTICHANNEL to get a good sound experience, indeed NOT! It's just different, perhaps more effective at enveloping for multiple seating arrangements. And yet, you can easily (I can at least) enjoy the tremendous sound quality, pressence, coherence, refinement, and dynamics of a well constructed, properly integrated 2 channel AV/music sysetem! It's just in how you put it together.
And, you know, even after all these years as an avid audio-guy, I still believe the picture quality and size is more important ultimately. There's nothing quite like the large quality big screen experience when done right. Now tha thigher def is becoming more standard (HD DVD coming), and technology is getting better and cheeper, getting "bigger" is a much more interesting proposition.
And yet, I'll still strive to tinker and tweak the best darn audio systems I can for my budgets. It's all good... |
Without first knowing your room size and setup options, I probably vote you just add a dedicated AV processor (even an inexpensive Acurus ACT 3 would more than suffice...more than good enough for movies, very dynamic/clear) for movies, a subwoofer, and be done with it!!!! You won't need drastic setup changes, nor a radical trasformation.
On the other hand, er, what's your room like?! |
As for "adding speakers", I recommend against it, unless they are clones for your mains. It's never good otherwise, nor believeable sonically. Tonal changes shift from side to side, and it's distracting, pulling you out of the movie. I vote away from adding mis-matched speakers, and even staying with 2.
The other choice is to get 5 matching high quality speakers, which you also like for your music needs. This is a bit more tricky. For you, I'd just do the 2 mains (no one will complain, trust me), cross over to a good pre/pro and subwoofer, and you're done.
As for projector, this is really the only way to go for high end home theater.
May I highly suggest, if you have the room, to look into used CRT front projetors! These big beasts can weigh between 110-230lbs, but still produce the best world class pic you can get basically! Black is black, best contrast, no scan lines/pixel when done right, and they're dirt cheep comparatively now.
Because they're almost obsolete new, you can pick up a superb referbished unit, or one with low hours for less than 10% of original cost most often! You can pick up a world class 720p capable projector for $1000-2500 if you look carefully. The crtcinema.com guy's, Curt Palme, and the sharktech guy's all have some good deals, back up and service what they sell, and know they're stuff.
Otherwise, your compromises are Single chip DLP "rainbows/color flash distractions/headaches for some, and "washed out blacks" for LCD. Lcos needs to come down in price, but that's a good technology substitute. Otherwise, 3 chip DLP is way expensive. Thus CRT makes the best pic for the buck, hands down...if you can deal with the size.
good luck |
Like I said, you like your 2 channel system, why change it??
just add a digital AV pre/pro (looped into an auxilary input on your existing 2 channel preamp(switch to that input for movies), and a subwoofer. You will keep the integrity of your 2 channel you like intact, and have added the HT part...simple really.
If you start over, you'll have a more difficult time "getting it all right" starting over. Plus, more complication, diffuculty in placing all the other speakers for good sound(even,matched sound, and balanced). You'll, in the end, just have "more speakers", not necessarily better.
Of course, I'm not sure what your speakers can do for movies. Some audiphile speakers are "too laid back" and uninvolving for movies. They don't jump out and grab you, but rather make you lean into the movie, and are distant sounding, not upfront and pressent!...this is critical for an effective movie mix...I don't care what any audiophile say's...it's booooooooring. (been there, done those...)
Still, I'D CHANGE ONLY ONE VARIABLE AT A TIME!!! This is the right way to do things. You go changing too many things at once and you don't know what you've got going!!!...or where the problems are.
good luck |
