@thosb-
Brent Jessee mentions 50 hours or so, of listening/burn-in time, as a norm.
That's been my experience, as well.
That's been my experience, as well.
BEL E88CC/6922 tubes - what can I expect?
Lately I've been tube rolling 6922s in the gain stage of my Sonic Frontiers Line 1 preamp, and considering trying the BEL E88CC/6922 from Upscale Audio. Since Upscale doesn't provide explicit recommendations on tubes and these aren't available other places, I wanted to see if anyone has opinions on these, or maybe there are other tubes I should try? So far have tried
- Svetlana (came with preamp) and these were dull, lifeless.
- Electro Harmonix gold pin - ok but kinda boring compared to others. Currently using these in input position.
- Amperex white label - fun but a little too tubey.
- Matsushita - I really like these but also a bit too much tubiness over time.
- Mullard - favorite so far, just sound right.
- GE "smokies" - still evaluating.
FOMO is creeping in as it looks like Upscale's inventory is dwindling. Any opinions? Other tubes I should try?
System - Thiel 2.3s, Krell KAV amp, SF L1 pre, bel canto 3.7VB DAC, decent room treatments, always think the higher end could get better if less sibilance/reediness.
Thanks!
- Svetlana (came with preamp) and these were dull, lifeless.
- Electro Harmonix gold pin - ok but kinda boring compared to others. Currently using these in input position.
- Amperex white label - fun but a little too tubey.
- Matsushita - I really like these but also a bit too much tubiness over time.
- Mullard - favorite so far, just sound right.
- GE "smokies" - still evaluating.
FOMO is creeping in as it looks like Upscale's inventory is dwindling. Any opinions? Other tubes I should try?
System - Thiel 2.3s, Krell KAV amp, SF L1 pre, bel canto 3.7VB DAC, decent room treatments, always think the higher end could get better if less sibilance/reediness.
Thanks!
18 responses Add your response
new telefunken’s are a rebranded slovak-made tube, the oem maker is jj electronics which also sells the same tubes under that ’basic’ brand name https://tubedepot.com/products/telefunken-black-diamond-ecc82-12au7?utm_source=google&utm_medium... https://tubedepot.com/products/jj-5751-preamp-tube below is ’must’ reading for those new to the vacuum tube game... so you know what you are getting when you pay up for ’modern-day’ tung sols. mullards, gold lions, telefunkens and so on... not to be mistaken for old stock real deal tubes of these makes -- "what it may seem to be, it is not... " https://hackaday.com/2020/08/06/just-who-makes-tubes-these-days/ not to say modern tubes are bad tubes, many are not... but they are not the legendary old stock tubes that put those great names on the map, not even close |
Thanks again guys, tons of good info, much appreciated. jjss49 yes I had found that thread, that and a couple others got me on to the tube rollin. rushfan71 now I have another tube to add to the search list, thanks! tomcy6, I've seen Andy's and Brent's web sites and Brent's notes have been very helpful, I will certainly call him at some point esp if I dip intot he rare/expensive tubes. |
sonic frontiers is long gone as a going concern, though chris johnson is still in ontario canada, now running parts connexion, the online hifi components seller, and doing some mods on equipment on a limited basis you could reach out and ask him his findings on the old s-f line1-3 units andy and brent are good vendors, their prices on the rare and really good stuff are getting sky high (brent even higher than andy), and their advice is usually valuable on tubes’ sonic signatures, but be sure to be specific about what gear is using their tubes... rolling tubes can make or less of a difference in different gear with different circuits |
The best option I found in my system for a 6922 is the Mazda 7308 1960’s French Military tube. Labeled Phillips 7308 PQ. I use them in a Manley Chinook phonostage. Purchased from Brent Jesse @ Audiotubes.com, search the web sight under the 6DJ8 selection and he has a description of the sound characteristics of each type as a guide as well as a little background info. They seemed more extended on both ends of the frequency spectrum and were more dynamic and transpatent than others I’ve tried in this phonostage like the Amperex 6922 Orange PQ label and the Phillips 7DJ8 that came stock selected by Manley. |
thosb, If you don’t want to take the time to become an expert on tubes, the manufacturer is usually the best source of information and they are usually willing to talk about tube rolling with owners, even if you bought the gear used. An alternative is to talk to a tube seller who has the approval of most ’goners who have dealt with them. A couple who regularly get high marks are: Andy Bouwman of Vintage Tube Services Vintage Tube Services | Tubes you can trust! Providing vintage audio tubes (new old stock) to audiophiles around the world. Celebrating 28 years of technical knowledge, experience, expertise, and tubes you can trust. For a free phone consultation call 616.454.3467. Brent Jessee BRENT JESSEE RECORDING HOMEPAGE (audiotubes.com) Both of these guys will be happy to talk to you. Andy can be hard to get ahold of and can be slow in getting your tubes out from time to time, but he’s very knowledgeable and has great tubes. Many people swear by Andy. Brent is usually quicker and also has great tubes and service. |
@thosb
i will say it again... the search bar above is your FRIEND... https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/tubes-for-sonic-frontiers-line-1 first post of this gem of a thread from 2005 when the sonic frontier linestages were the cat’s meow ""Chris suggested putting your best tubes in the two back spots, and I ended up with Siemens CCa in those spots and Siemens 6922 nickel pins in the other four spots."" have fun, and good luck rollin’... |
Wow thanks guys, much appreciated! Telefunken is on my radar and actually would be top of the list except for cost, now I can add Siemens to the hunt. I had kinda ruled out Gold Lions but maybe I'll reconsider, after all, how do you really know w/o trying? Also the links are much appreciated, they'll help expand my not-so-vast knowledge of tubes and associated vocabulary. My understanding of the Amperex tubes I have is they were made in USA (White Plains NY?) and were destined for military use, as opposed to the Mullards. But they are not plainly marked to my inexperienced eye. And most importantly, I can pass on the BELs and my FOMO is out the window. FYI, my reasons for tube rolling are 1) cheaper than equipment rolling 2) improve listening skills 3) easy to make changes when things start to not quite sound right anymore. Last night I put the Matsushitas back in and was a very happy camper. We'll see how long they last. Final question - |
my recollection on the bel tubes is the same as @tomcy6 philips/amperex set up a plant in india and these were among their production i never had these, so cannot comment on their s-q being old stock tubes made under the auspices of one of the major 1st world producers, i would guess they would sound better than modern day 6dj8 equivalents, which are poor sonically |
The only fault I could find with the pair of Amperex USN/CEP 7308, mid 60's, that I tried, was their slightly warm coloration. Other than that: everything was lovely. Seems we may have the same tastes, regarding presentation. Try to find a NOS pair of Siemens CCa, grey shields, external date coded, from the late 50's or early 60's. If you can locate a pair of E188CCs, of the same description, they offer almost the exact presentation. Bet either would suit your aural palate, to a tee! Some history: https://www.tubemuseum.org/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SH%5FCCa%5Fsingle I found those later CCas, with the internal date codes and silver shields too bright/zingy, for my tastes. |
I believe that BEL tubes were part of the Phillips conglomerate made in India. Here is the Factory Code etched into the glass: V which stand for: Bharat Electronics (Private) Ltd, Bangalore 13, India You can read about these codes here: D:\MyFiles\WordPerfect\Philtitle.PDF (pocnet.net) When I was buying NOS tubes they were not highly regarded, but the only way to know for sure is to try them in your system. |
Is Telefunken on your radar OP.. Tough to beat that valve.. I've used E88C/6922 ECC82/12AU7 and ECC83/12AT7. Every valve preamp or power amp I've ever used with any of those valves always sounded wonderful. There are a LOT of Tellies branded under other names.. A little research pays big dividends. Same with Mullard, there are a LOT of other names branded on the valve, but they are 100% Mullard. Amperex for one. Volvo, Mazda, Hammond, Siemens Golden Lyon? Serious fan base, good valve for the most part.. The way you're describe valves, GL would be LESS tubey more like a Mullard the way YOUR describing, But Amperex is tubey and it's a Mullard? There a FEW variance within a brand.. Mullard BIG time.. I mean you are "Rollin on the River"...Might as well run the entire gauntlet. Have fun |
