Beethoven Symphonies - best perf + sonics on CD

Can somebody point me toward the best sounding remasters of Toscanini(Redbook)? I'm looking to try out a few single releases, not a box set.

Lowrider, I'm not so sure that Haydn had that much of an influence on Beethoven. His study with Haydn was financed by a benefactor. From my understanding this arrangement mostly served to set Beethoven up in Vienna from Beethoven's point of view.

Indirectly, I suspect Bach had more influence on Beethoven than Haydn did.
I am sympathetic to the argument that a great deal of flexibility in tempi was expected. Otherwise, how does one explain Brahms' bizarre attempts at explaining what he wanted in Italian. Mahler I think took a better course and used his native German. I understand his scores leave little doubt regarding his intentions.

"Beethoven's metronome was indeed just fine, and he really did intend for the tempos to be that quick."

I would agree and being a student of Haydn, Beethoven's early symphonies would probably be at a similar quick tempo.

Learsfool, thanks for bringing your very extensive knowledge and expertise to this thread. If you get a chance, do try to listen to Toscanini's 1940 Brahms 1st recording, via the link I provided above.

Returning to Beethoven, I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned the 1958 Bruno Walter/Columbia Symphony "Pastorale."

I have it on LP, on an imported Japanese CBS/Sony remaster, I believe from the 1980s, which has very respectable if not great sonics. It appears to be readily available these days on various CDs, although I have no idea what their sonic quality may be.

It is considered by many to be the definitive interpretation of this beautiful work.

Best regards,
-- Al

I tend to believe that tempo markings are primarily dependent upon the overall aesthetic of the work. Back in the day of course, conductors had to speed up tempos in order to fit works onto a recording. This was a serious handicap with cylinders and 78's. Brahms is well known for writing in tempos like, 'fast but not too fast and certainly not slow'. What it comes down to I think is that neither Beethoven nor Brahms would expect tempos to be exactly the same between any one performance. Composers throughout time have understood personal interpretations of their scores as being part of the artistic process. I'd even be as bold as to say that there was more freedom given with respect to interpretation during these afore mentioned composers lifetimes than there is today. At the top of my head I am thinking of the Percy Granger Grieg Piano Concerto on 2L (a very interesting approach to using a piano roll).

At this point in time, I find that Baroque and earlier music sounds better to my ear and simply more "right" when played on period instruments and with the prevailing scholastic ideas applied. Classic era music I like either way. By around Beethoven and beyond I prefer modern instruments.

Tempo is an area requiring pretty deep discussion. But I guess we have the time or we wouldn't be here!

Learsfool, The next time you see Greensburg tell him thanks for me. My last formal music class was 1966 8th grade music. I have the vast majority of his courses, and several of them I have been through at least twice. I'm working my way through the Mozart chamber set now. As usual, he has opened my ears to some gems I was not familiar with.

On the Brahms , I admire much of what Abbado has done but I haven't heard his Brahms. i will check this out and probably the Szell also. I also would love to hear Welser-Most and the Clevelanders do a cycle. I heard them do the Violin Concerto with Zimmerman several years back and found it to be mighty fine Brahms.

I found the 1940 Toscanini Brahms to be very un-Toscanini like. Very Teutonic. Had I heard it without knowing i would never have guessed it was him.

On the Beethoven, the Gardiner set is a great one and it does get played, especially the 2nd. But you know, I just can't make the historically informed/original instrument approach my base camp. Its worthwhile, informative, enjoyable, but it speaks to my mind. Not my heart.

Learsfool, I'm not sure that I agree with anything that you've said (ha, ha) all the same. Andante put out a nice Brahms set which contains Toscanini 1941, Walter 1936, Stokowski 1936, Mengelberg 1932, Monteux 1945, Sabata 1939, Furtwängler 1945, Weingartner 1938.

There are alot of great recommendations and comments here. I also like to see Bob Greenberg's set mentioned - I know him personally, and have always wholeheartedly recommended his series to "laymen" who are interested in learning more about classical music. For the more advanced musical students, they are a little simplistic, but his "word-score" concept is a fantastic way of explaining the basics to non-musicians. There isn't anything better out there, though I also love to recommend the famous composer Aaron Copland's book, What To Listen For In Music.

For me, the 40's/50's way of doing Beethoven is very slow and overly romanticized, though the best of them do make it work musically. Of all the older sets mentioned, I would prefer the Bohm, though he is not normally a conductor I would choose. That Beethoven set is in my opinion his very finest work. Another old set which I am very surprised at the lack of mention here, though, is the Szell/Cleveland set. While I don't always like his tempi, there is some very fine playing in that set by the Cleveland Orchestra.

Of the more modern conductors, by miles the best original instrument set is Gardiner's, which has been mentioned several times already. I am also a big fan of Claudio Abbado - those DVD's he did in 2001 with Berlin are absolutely amazing - Beethoven as it should be done on modern instruments. Incredible interpretations and performances, which always trumps sound quality IMO.

For Brahms, I also really enjoy Abbado's old set from the 70's, which was done with a different orchestra for each symphony, which is kind of interesting in itself. Also, the Szell/Cleveland set here is still considered by many musicians to be the gold standard. I wasn't going to be negative, but I cannot resist adding that I am generally not a fan of Toscanini for the German rep - the younger Italians, Abbado and Giulini do it MUCH better. I actually have never heard the Giulini Brahms set you guys have mentioned, I will have to try to find that on LP.

By the way, someone made the comment that the faster tempos were "how the early music people think they were played at the time," or something like that. This is now beyond question, with all the research that has been done in the last twenty years or so. Beethoven's metronome was indeed just fine, and he really did intend for the tempos to be that quick. And in Haydn and Mozart's time, tempi were often even quicker for Allegros, etc. Also, one of my personal pet peeves is how slow many conductors influenced by the greats of the 40's and 50's take Andantes. Andantes are supposed to be good walking tempos, as Gardiner and Abbado and others take them. And they definitely were so in the 18th century. OK, I'll get off my soapbox now.

There is something a bit surprising in the Brahms recommendations coming in. Did you notice? Bohm, Giulini, Toscanini, Toscanini, Toscanini, and another vote for Giulini. One German conductor for the most quintessentially German music ever written.

Al, I am listening to the 1940 Toscanini NBCSO. It is quite remarkable. This is well worth hearing, and much better than his 1952 effort on the 1st.

Brownsfan, thanks very much once again. I have it on order!

Best regards,
-- Al

Brownsfan, A priority reason that I'm thinking of the Japanese re-masters is to to test my stereo. I don't own a SACD player but that's OK.
Ashkenazy: Strauss Ein AlpenSinfonie on Ondine has been on my list for a while. He is certainly a very capable conductor though pianist comes to my mind first and foremost.

I am considering the 1963 Karajan set on SACD. It's $72 on Amazon. But then, SACD did not do much for the 1954 9th by Furtwangler. I tired to listen to it last night but could not. It may be best, just to pick and choose the best recordings of each seperate symphony. I buy some recordings that are of histroic importance, just to have them. Never listen to them.

Cheers

Loydelee21, I had that Harnoncourt cycle with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe and thought the 9th to be the best of them. Yes, Orfeo, Audite, and more rarely mentioned Andante which was one of my favorites before they stopped production, too bad. I'm now looking at a Kreisler Japanese re-master that plays back at 192 kHz and since my DAC will match that frequency I'm certain to order it come payday.
Do you know if the Japanese re-masdters in general playback at this frequency of 192 kHz?

Goofyfoot, I have so far just refused to pay that kind of money. Although, as I said earler, I have heard they are working on the Klempe SDO recordings of the Strauss tone poems. I will almost certainly give 1 or 2 of those a try.
BTW, I really like the Ashkenazy Sibelius 2 on Exton, and it comes with the most lovely recording of the Swans of Tuenalla(sp) I have yet heard. Its a rare month where that disk doesn't get a couple of playings.

I have the '63 von Karajan 9 Symphonies Remastered which is much better in sound quality than the earlier '63 set. I also have the entire Furtwanger Berlin set, plus a few choice individual ones from '53 (Vienna)...each carefully remsastered by specialist archival guys in France, Tahra, as well as Orfeo, Audite. They are great interpretations for me...but the sound quality is still lacking compared to great recordings/masterings. I also have the Harnoncourt set...the 9th is something else...very rich and romantic if you want a sweeping 9th...quite a lot of fun. my two cents.

Can anyone recommend one of the Japanese re-masters or validate its quality based on price comparison? Speaking of von Karajan, I've been cogitating over the Sibelius 2nd and Finlandia but for $80.00?

http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/80474/Herbert_von_Karajan-Sibelius_Symphony_No_2-Hybrid_Stereo_SACD

Al, http://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Four-Symphonies-Symphony-Orchestra/dp/B00000JPCE/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1361549900&sr=1-4
All 4 Brahms symphonies for ~ $20. Digitally remastered. The 2nd is the one that really stands out here. I think it is my favorite Brahms 2. Sound is about as good as you can expect for that era.

Brownsfan, no I haven't heard it, but it's now on my to be acquired list. Thanks!

Best regards,
-- Al

Al, Have you heard the Toscanini 1952 (NBCSO) recording of the 2nd? It is aural seratonin with just a dash of dopamine. Pure joy!

Almarg's post reminded me of the Chesky series of Beethoven;
Rene Leibowitz/Royal Philharmonic. These were recorded in 1960 and have superb sound thanks to Chesky's tube-based remastering system.
Terrific performances with the most analogue sound I've ever heard on a CD. Very detailed, great soundstaging, and with the ambiance of being seated in the concert hall.
(but more expensive than mass-produced disks, which is understandable).

I'll just throw this out there;

Immortal Performances RCA Victrola (re-pressings of the red seal deluxe edition) Toscanini and the NBC Symphony Orchestra Brahms: The Four Symphonies and "Haydn" Variations, Tragic Overture, Academic Festival Overture.

Library of Congress Card Number R67-3745

These sound better for some reason than any of the other original pressings of Toscanini Brahms on RCA.

Lowrider, I have the Giulini/VPO Brahms you mentioned. It is wonderful. I also agree on the price for the Japanese imports, although I may pull the trigger on the Kempe/Strauss reissues when they are available. No one can touch Kempe on Strauss imo.
Almaarg, I also admire the Toscanini Brahms. I haven't listened to his 1st in a while. I will put that on my playlist.

Lowrider, complete with a descriptive review of the entire set;

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=102270

Shall we do Brahms next?

Good idea :-)

Symphony No. 1, which happens to be my favorite symphony:

For performance + sonics: Horenstein/LSO, Chesky CD19

For performance: Toscanini/NBC Symphony Orchestra (1940 performance), transcribed from Victor 78s

I've downloaded the latter from the link shown, as an MP3, transcribed it to a redbook CD-R, and played it on my main system. The primitive but surprisingly listenable sound did not detract significantly from what to me is a performance for the ages.

Note that it can also be played directly from the website to your computer.

IMHO. Best regards,

-- Al

Goofyfoot...I wish I knew about Furtwängler on Orfeo D'Or before I purchased the EMI separates. thanks for the info.

This is the DG remaster, correct?

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-The-Symphonies-Gundula-Janowitz/dp/B0000C03AH

Brownsfan, will you give us a report once it arrives? Spending $60.00 for a Japanese import seems a bit steep, I hope the DG copy will not disappoint.

Brownsfan, I'm glad u found it. I have too many cds on order right now so I'll have to wait on the Karajan.
If u are seriously looking for a Brahms cycle on CD, I suggest Giulini/VPO on Newton Classics 1991. His Brahms is slower and he reveals every nuance that, IMO, other conductors miss. Plus those Vienna strings are sublime.

I don't own a SACD, so I look for the best Redbook available.

Tostadosunidos, I pulled out my old 1983 4th/7th pairing. It was not excessively bright on my ModWright Sony and not really unpleasant to listen to. But, my assessment remains fundamentally unchanged. This was disappointing, artistically, and of course, it is still 83 digital, even if it is better through the ModWright.

Goofyfoot, I bought the DG remaster.

We could start with something familiar;

http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/39716/Karl_Bohm-Brahms_Symphony_No_1-200_Gram_Vinyl_Record

Are these the Japanese remasters found on the Acoustic Sounds website or are they DG remasters?

Lowrider, Thank you thank you thank you! Your link got me (eventually) to the sacd remasters of the 63 Karajan LvB, which I bought in a small fragment of a New York minute. Woohoo, this is fun. Shall we do Brahms next?

Lowrider and Brownsfan, I have a Furtwängler set on the Orfeo D' Or label that I want to recommend for these reasons;

A) The remastering was taken from the original source.
B) They are live performances from the Salzburg Festival 1949-1954 with the Vienna Philharmonic.
C) It contains 8 mono CD's.
D) Includes Beethoven Symphonies 3, 9, 8, the Große Fuge and Symphony 7

This set won the PREIS DER DEUTSCHEN SCHALLPLATTEN KRITIK

Brownsfan, have u seen this 1963 set...
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-9-Symphonies-Gundula-Janowitz/dp/B000001GBQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1361404079&sr=1-1&keywords=karajan+beethoven

Reading the user reviews makes it even more confusing as to the sound quality. I see there are now some hybrid SACDs of the remixed 1963. I'll be looking into those.

Goofyfoot...you are most welcome. I have many DDD cycles of Beethoven; like you I am interested in the interpretation.
But now I explore the early conductors such as Klemperer, Kleiber, Furtwängler, but it's a crapshoot finding good quality CDs and some of the mono to stereo transfers are dreadful.

Thanks Lowrider, I'll look into that set ASAP. In general I've found that I tire of repeated performances. Not to say that their aren't enough performances on recording but I've been listening more for various interpretations, spontaneity in the concert hall, etc.. Which is why I'm surprised that there is no mention of Otto Klemperer in this regard.
Nathan Milstein, in Christopher Nupen's DVD portrait (one of my best DVD's), mentions Klemperer as being one of the great conductors of the 20th century (Nathan Milstein also states that Firtwangler was the greatest conductor that he had ever worked with).
Sonic quality is important to a degree but given the option of listening to very early Horowitz or later Horowitz, I will opt for the remastered early recordings of the 1920's. However, seeing that I was born in 1962, my familiarity with the raisonne' of early classical recordings is severely limited. But thanks to website forums like this one, I have an opportunity to learn and discover.
Thank You!

Lowrider, I don't own any HvK CD's from the 60's cycle. I had the vinyl back in the day. By the time the 80's rolled around, I was moving away from vinyl and the HvK's were so worn you could see through them.
I am thinking about buying whatever I can find from the 60's cycle on redbook. Last night, all I could find was the 3rd, 9th, and I think maybe the 5th. No mention of them being remastered. If DG remastered the 60's HvK's and reissued them I'd buy them in a New York minute.

You are correct about HvKs age. He was a great conductor. HvK, LvB, and I spent much time together.

Goofyfoot..there is a Karajan LvB cycle with the Philharmonia from 1950 on EMI.
Don't know much about it.

Brownsfan, I need to make a point, then ask a question. The 1980s performances are inferior to the 1963, but the Karajan Gold remasters are an improvement over that awful boxed-set, plus I am taking into consideration that Karajan is 80 years old. I find them worth listening to, but it's not a whole-hearted endorsement.
That said, I'll ask you if the 1960s cycle has been remastered for Redbook? There have been so many reissues, I am confused. I own the 1963 red and gold box-set and for me it is the greatest interpretation of Beethoven, however the record quality is only marginally acceptable.
Can you provide further info on better quality 1960s CDs?

I have von Karajan on Columbia Microgroove though not Beethoven and DG mono vinyl also. I wonder to what extent he recorded on Columbia. It would be nice to see more attention given to his other, outside of the mainstream repertoire. I've found it hard to track down comprehensive lists of recordings from the 1940's and 1950's.

Tostadosunidos, I will attempt to listen to the 4th and 7th tonight. Not only did I find the recording quality objectionable, I thought von Karajan fell way short of his previous effort. The 7th from the 60's was magical. The 80's version was nothing special. I may try and pick up reissues of the 9th and 3rd from the 60's. Those were the only ones I saw.

Tostadosunidos, good question. The Box set was remastered and the result was the Karajan Gold set. All 9 symphonies released as separates. Although slightly bright, they lack the harshness of early DG digital. With my tube CDP, they sound open, well balanced and with first rate performances. Karajan is in top form IMO.
I think with a good CD or DAC they are worth buying, in fact, I play them often.

Thanks to both responses. I remember when visiting Berlin, hearing negative comments concerning the venue changes for the Philharmoniker, however this alone should not have influenced DG to the degree that their quality had declined. The Teldec recordings are my favorite from the larger companies as there is a definite aesthetic that speaks of integrity to the finest detail. I'm still fond of the Harnoncourt Mozart recording on Teldec. But as I said earlier, sometimes it comes down to who's on the board of directors.
Thanks

Goofyfoot, I think the later and current DG CDs are excellent quality and the Berliner Philharmonie concert hall clearly has good sonics.
I do know that during the mid 70s to mid 80s, Bernstein
(in Vienna) and Karajan were making very different demands on the DG engineers and the result in both cases were recordings resulting in a different sound compared to other DG recordings. So I don't know what to make of that.
As far as DG moving into digital, you make a very compelling case. What is very interesting to me is that Philips and Teldec (Decca + Telefunken) their German competitors made far superior recordings.

Goofyfoot, Its been a long time. My memory is good, but--- I can't swear to any of this. What I remember having heard at the time would be in agreement with your "necessary evil" scenario. What I remember is that once construction of the Berliner Philharmonie was complete, there was an enormous amount of pressure applied to the Philharmoniker to shift recordings to that venue. I don't know who was applying the pressure. The facility was completed in 1963. This change in venue was not something DG desired, as I recall.
I suppose referring to early digital as a necessary evil is as apt a description as any.
I do think that excellent recordings can be made in most venues today, provided that you have a recording company that wants to make the effort. I'm not sure I can think of one decent recording in my collection made in the Barbican, so I think there is a limit to what competent engineering can overcome. I'd love to here a new recording made of the Clevelanders in the old Masonic Auditorium. Some of those were pretty special (at least to me).
Your point regarding viable economics is apt. The money has to work, unless you are fortunate enough to have someone underwrite.

Regarding the 80's digital DG Karajan set--I'm curious to know if any of you find them tolerable on today's less harsh-sounding machines. I know I found them hard to listen to back when they came out, but much better-sounding now.

Either of you please, Lowrider and/or Brownsfan; what about the current DG recordings in these German cookie cutter concert halls. The hall in Köln is the same as in Berlin is the same as in Hamburg, etc...it's just Walt Disney. Do you suppose that the aforementioned transition was a necessary evil for DG?
I've also been to the Theatre Champ Elysee and the acoustics in that hall are lovely but recordings and concerts don't often take place in these types of venues anymore. Paris has its beautiful Paris Opera but typically the opera plays in the modern facility at Place Bastille. Regardless, excellent recordings are had from almost anywhere today, would you not agree?
It seems to me like DG artists at some point were the victims of a race to keep up with technological advancements, which at the end of the day either meant maximizing dividends or reporting a loss. After all, it is primarily a business, Karajan or no Karajan.

This discussion really brings back the memories Lowrider. As a poor student, I cut my teeth on William Steinberg's Pittsburgh Beethoven set. 9 symphonies, $10. Later when I had a little more money I began to accumulate the von Karajan set from the 60's. I will never forget years later, hearing the digital recording of the 7th how terribly disappointed I was.

Brownsfan...that's very interesting and may account for the change in sound during that period. I just listened to Karajan 1963 and though lacking the detail of modern recordings, the overall balance is excellent. The later Beethoven and Schumann cycles suffer from a change in their recording technique. Sounds like over-miking and a lack of the venue ambiance. I know Karajan was very displeased and they were remixed and remastered.
And then there was DGs transition to digital...terrible. That's why I can't recommend the later Beethoven cycle as far as having good sonics.
BTW, I still order DG vinyl made in Germany/Holland and it is so well crafted.

Lowrider, What happened at DG is hard to understand. DG made terrific recordings then suddenly forgot what music sounded like. The JCK is by all accounts a terrific recording venue. I have a recent recording by Angela Hewitt recorded there and it is very nice. I heard the DG engineers were not happy about being forced to record in the then new Berlin concert hall instead of the JCK. Trying to make the switch to digital at more or less the same time made for a train wreck I guess.