Interesting thread, Nocaster. My experience is largely similar to your own. I have tended to own speakers (Quad 57's, Ruark Talisman II's, Rogers Studio 1a, Mordaunt-Short P6's) which do the mids right rather than fully extending to the lowest octaves. With any of these speakers, they do so much right in the critical mid range and lower treble that I seldom feel I'm missing out on the low lows.
Having said that, I've had the opportunity to listen to a few systems with genuine full range speakers (MBL 101's, Avalon Isis, Rockport, Von Schweikert, and a few others) and they have definitely had an additional dimension that my own speakers have lacked and this was no doubt bass related. The common element in all these systems, however, was a significantly larger room than mine and significantly more expensive (and powerful) amplification.
If I win the lottery and suddenly find myself in a listening room double the size, my priorities would certainly shift to seeking a more full range loudspeaker. |
"The search for perfect bass is futile, because if you want more you miss it and when you have it it disturbs you". Yes - technically speaking low frequencies will mask higher frequencies. So what you gain in bass may turn out to be a loss somewhere else (usually in the midrange). The worst form of bass is the impressive kind or "one-note-bass". This is your prototypical ported speaker with a high Q and a frequency response hump around 80 Hz. Extremely impressive (this sound sells speakers) but hardly musical. IMHO, the only good bass is one that it is tight and dynamic with absolutely no resonance (critically damped). This will sounds like "less bass" to most people who have often been long exposed to one-note bass, however, you can actually hear more detail and articulation in the bass with this type design (instead of boom boom boom boom) |
It's something people hate to hear, but the best way to get good bass (acoustic bass and assorted musical cues) is from room treatment. The cleanest bass can not be bought, it has to be made. In a sense it's based reduction, not addition.
Treatment is generally impossible in most people living-rooms - but it's not an audiophile choice - it's a design choice. I think it should be acknowledged that people spend fortunes and spend years agonizing over something that they have control over once they step out of the audio chain.
In real life (with acoustic music) there is no bass bloat or "boxiness", why should we have it in our systems?
Gregg |
IMHO, the only good bass is one that it is tight and dynamic with absolutely no resonance (critically damped). This will sounds like "less bass" to most people who have often been long exposed to one-note bass, however, you can actually hear more detail and articulation in the bass with this type design (instead of boom boom boom boom)
Very well said! |
For almost 20 years I belonged to the same school. . . ran Maggies 3As driven for at least half that time with the very hefty Rowland 7M monos. . . no, I did not need any deeper bass. . . I was perfectly happy with the silky mids of the Maggies, even if the bass tended to be anemic. Every time I auditioned other speakers with bass that I could even remotely afford I was confronted with a flawed bottom that was occasionally deep, sometimes punchy, other times bloated, and most of the times tuneless. Then I heard Vienna Mahlers with their twin 10" side-mounted subwoofers. . . fell in love, divorced the Maggies, married the Mahlers. . . and realized that for 18 years I had been living in denial, while suffering of. . . "bass envy." G. |
I believe the room has EVERYTHING to do with bass support, absorption and deflection. I traveled for eight years as a contractor living in extended stay suites and setting up small systems. It was amazing how well most of these sounded considering they were by any standards minimal.
But they all seemed to shine surrounded by brick or cinder block structure. The bass was solid and did not wander. This came from Linn Classik/NHT SuperZereos, NAD L-40/Totem Mites, Onkyo CS 210/Totem Mites, Rega Brio/NAD CD/SuperZereos. |
Without bass, there is no foundation...no solidity to the performance. Yes, the bass has to be "right" ...clean, fast, not too much or too little...however, it needs to be there for me. Midrange is easier to reproduce, but one of the reasons I haven't brought Maggies into this house is because in the end..although the mids are great, there is no foundation. |
I have been through a lot of systems, heard a lot of systems, and currently have 3 systems set up in my home. Having decent bass is important to me, I can't deny that. But I have found it is the midrange and high frequencies that keep me captivated and drawn into the music. I find poor high-frequency reproduction is especially irritating.
I have recently bought a pair of Magnepan 1.6QR speakers for my smaller-room system and believe it will be a "keeper." It has a wonderful midrange, but especially smooth, shimmering, and detailed treble, not to mention a broad soundstage that is unmatched by many other speakers I've tried.
Then I added a modest 12-inch active sub and viola!... now it has appropriate bass wallop too (and not the "one-note" type by any means). I love this system.
Getting back to the original topic, I enjoy great bass, but if it comes with less-than-great midrange -- and especially treble, then it's of no use to me. |
Highs,mids,and bass without bass you are missing the power and majesty. Having a system with a great low end, I could never go back. It can be a pain to get it right,but once heard the sound is marvelous.
Imagine listening to the king of instruments,the organ with little bass,just wouldn't sound right. |
Wavetrader, oh yeah... I almost forgot about my pipe-organ recordings that I never play... not because my systems won't do them justice... just because that type of music doesn't generally thrill me. But if that's your thing, hey, go for it! BTW, I like those VAC tube amps of yours... I bet they'd sound great on my Maggies! |
It can be the hardest thing to get right, but you do need to match, tweak and tune a system until the bass is just right otherwise nothing will sound good in my experience. |
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I'm with Stringreen, "without bass there is no foundation." Yah, the midrange and highs need to be "right", that goes without saying but without good bass, you limit your music to small ensembles. No way a speaker that only goes down to 40 or 50 Hz is going to do justice to full orchestra or large scale music.
This "one-note" bass people often complain about is almost always coming from a ported speaker which are the most common. They're a design compromise and even the ones that go reasonably low fail to deliver good pitch definition.
The only good/great bass I've heard over the years has come from transmission-line or sealed boxes. Transmission-lines are usually relatively easy to drive but can be rather large and expensive to build. Sealed box designs are less efficient so need more power to drive them. Other than REL's, most subs that do good bass are sealed and have lots of power.
Good bass not only adds power and weight to music, it also opens up the soundstage and reveals small details and nuances that make a performance believable. If you haven't heard it then you won't know what I'm talking about and you can go on kidding yourself into believing that the midrange is all important but once you've heard what good bass adds to the music, you won't want to give it up.
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Greggdeering
Is 100% correct.
Getting excessive bass is very hard, most speakers that are well designed can accomplish it with the best match in electronics, but its more about the room environment. This is where you see people drop 50,000 on a pair of speakers and ask "wheres the bass"? Funny to me some people with this kinda money decide to go out and even attempt speakers of this money yet can't afford to or don't want to use a dedicated tuned room!
Honestly some recordings can be just "That bad" but its rare, and unless you are literally almost scared your bass can take the room down around you, you are not producing enough of it to represent full scale of what music is. Go sit in front of a drum set, if you think your speaker is not producing it with that authority, than its simple its not or the room is not. By the way there are many more variables like I said such as cables, source, matching, and all the way down to the recording.
Its actually interesting because I could take an old Beatles album and play it on some peoples systems, with virtually no impact, sounds good, maybe magical mids etc... But not like its concert capable.. Put it on my system, and its capable of putting you thru the backwall like a shotgun just went off! This is where you truly experience full range down low, no distortion, no bloat, just pure power and authority. |
>Let me first say that I have a pair of Sonus Faber Guarneri that I have owned for several years now. I am driving them with a Mcintosh 2102 (100 watts per side). I recently read an interview with Sonus faber founder Franco Serblin in wich he made an interesting statement. He said "The search for perfect bass is futile, because if you want more you miss it and when you have it it disturbs you".
I disagree since building my Linkwitz Orions where the bass sounds natural and covers the whole musical spectrum. Yo Dipole bass is directional (theoretically no output 90 degrees off-aixs, -6dB @ 60 degrees, -3dB @ 45 degrees) and in-room measurements confirmed that they weren't stimulating my height mode. Power response is also more in line with the rest of the spectrum because they retain a directivity index of 4.8dB instead of dropping to unity with equal output in all directions.
Parametric equalization with conventional speakers helps a lot too albeit over a smaller listening area.
I'd expect the Earl Geddess multiple woofer strategy (deployed in the Audio Kinesis Swarm) and throw-catch double bass array (An array of woofers on the front wall spaced to create an essentially planar wave which is caught by a matching array setup on the back wall operating 180 degrees out of phase plus a time delay to accomodate transit time across the room).
The key here is "woofer" not "sub woofer" because you're trying to cover most of the modal region not just the last octave. |
>I'd expect the Earl Geddess multiple woofer strategy (deployed in the Audio Kinesis Swarm) and throw-catch double bass array (An array of woofers on the front wall spaced to create an essentially planar wave which is caught by a matching array setup on the back wall operating 180 degrees out of phase plus a time delay to accomodate transit time across the room)
to meet or exceed what I get.
I need to edit more carefully. |
Boomy inacurate base is tiresome; clean, tight, acurate base is not. In fact, it can be just as ingaging as midrange. You just the right speakers and poweer to drive them. |
Try Nils Landgren 5000 Miles "Da Fonk" - great walk on the bass groove - a good test for your room and speakers..
Also Old School Nation series by Hibias records has some nice punchy bass - I don;t know what they do but they are awesome sounding remasters of old favorites.
Another good sound is Chic Good Times by Ben Liebrand "Grand 12 INches".
Duran Duran American Science (Chemical Reaction Mix) has some walking bass that you can used to check the bass.
And if you like it loud, (this one is for Undertow), try Duran Duran Meet El Presidente (12" Version) - great bongos and a nice walkin bass riff...
sorry if these are all dance mixes but you wanted great bass.... |
Oh and a couple more Zuchero "Pippo" has a great bass sound. And Peter Gabriel's Sledgehammer - for a bass that really moves all around you (thank you Daniel Lanois) |
I understand Serblin's comment. It is why after trying all sorts of speakers I settled on Merlin VSM-MXe. The speaker is balanced with the right amount of bass for my ears in my 13x18 room with bass traps and room treatment. I've had that feeling before of too much bass, it never seems natural to me, but on acoustic instruments the small two-way Merlin feels realistic to me over extended listening. Now I don't listen to symphonic music where I might want a different kind of speaker, maybe. |
