Bargain interconnects to tame treble & boost bass?

Since you ask for ICs opinions, evidentally you are not ready to switch your new bought components, I would recommend replace your kimber 4tc& 8tc even thought they are good speaker cables but bright.I used budget Ics from : Harmonic tech, Audioquest,Kimber for my Krell 400xi. Kimber PBJ ICs as well 4ct and 8ct speaker cables are beautiful in high frequency for dark systems but can bleed your ears with bright system as your Bryston,Triangle and Sony. I would try Kimber Hero ( 160.00 1 meter). Warning: very dark at first but after brake-in period will smooth the low out) then move on to speaker cables . PS audio allows 30 days free trial for their PS Xstream statement. Best wish.

Since you ask for" budget" ICs opinions, evidentally you are not ready to switch your new bought components, I would recommend replace your kimber 4tc& 8tc even thought they are good speaker cables but bright.I used budget Ics from : Harmonic tech, Audioquest,Kimber for my Krell 400xi. Kimber PBJ ICs as well 4ct and 8ct speaker cables are beautiful in high frequency for dark systems but can bleed your ears with bright system as your Bryston,Triangle and Sony. I would try Kimber Hero ( 160.00 1 meter). Warning: very dark at first but after brake-in period will smooth the low out) then move on to speaker cables . PS audio allows 30 days free trial for their PS Xstream statement. Best wish.

Thank you for the clarification, Grant. Makes sense...

Sherod, your feelings are classic "silver versus copper" debate. There's not a lot that can be added to what you said, except my own experiences. For a time, I liked adding silver in, and at a certain point, a threshold was reached where it became too much. Yes, it did all of these things that looked great on paper, yet I could never sit down and fully relax while listening. One day, I switched out the silver loudspeaker cables for copper, and there was peace. I learned an important lesson. Depending on system and personal tastes, silver or copper will be better. I've really come to appreciate the liquidity and warmth of copper.

I tend to hear silver plated copper exhibiting a lot of the characteristics of silver. Sort of a poor man's silver cable, though I'm sure some cable company who markets this kind of product for mega bucks will jump on me for saying this.

As much as I wanted to like the MAS Grey it just never sounded right to my ears. Even after being fully broken in, the sound was very clean and fast, but the tonal balance was always tilted up and the extreme highs just had a bit too much energy to them. To my ears, in my system, on my CD player, the MAS Black( formerly the MAS Musiclink) is just more balanced and natural sounding. But this is just IMHO and YMMV. There are better cables today since the MAS Black came out quite some time ago, but even today, in the right system, the little MAS Black will still put to shame many very expensive( and overpriced) interconnects.I still have a pair on my CD player in my bedroom system and always keep a couple pair spare for emergencies and comparisons.

By the way, I believe the MAS Black has silver/plated copper conductors.

Look into Audio Horizon cables. Price is perfect for you.

Sherod/Grant, what is the difference between MAS Black and Grey?

I picked up the Grey at the same time John sold me the 3 Cardas adapters (boy, was I at the right place at the right time for those adapters!?!). The MAS was more or less a throw-in, and a no brainer, as you never know when a cable with such a good reputation, having both RCA and XLR terminations, will come in handy. Truthfully, I haven't sat down to evaluate the MAS Grey on its own yet, to be able to know what it actually sounds like.

Grant,

I have an extra 1M pair of MAS Black I'll sell you cheap.
Email me if interested.

Just for the record, the best location I have found for the MAS Black is on the CD player. I prefer it to the Grey(silver) version. It just didn't sound right from pre to amp, but from audio out on CDp to pre the Black can put to shame many very expensive cables. It is a shame they don't make them anymore.
Sherod

Congratulations on the new baby, Grant!

An issue came up with ordering the microphone from a local dealer near me. They're giving me a refund, but I still don't have the microphone. So, while I'm still feeling the Behringer is the right move, I won't know for sure until I get the microphone, and can run a sweep of the room. To be honest, I've been putting my focus into the other system downstairs as of late.

I'm using two interconnects which each feature RCA connectors on one end, and XLR on the other. One pair is a 1.5 m Stealth, featuring silver ribbon, the other is MAS Grey, which are also silver. I also got REALLY lucky at the time, and found an Audiogon buddy here selling 3 pairs of Cardas XLR - RCA adapters, both the male and female, so that was nice.

I'm curious as to your reaction on the Behringer...

Tvad, just an FYI, but while using the DEQ2496, you should definitely try using it with it's stock power cord first. That eq was one of only 2 pieces of gear I've ever heard that didn't sound better with an aftermarket PC. Also, be aware of it's high output level with the back-panel switch set to +22 db. It may very well cause overload distortion in whatever you feed it into. Unfortunately, I found the lower-output setting to sound really inferior.

Trelja...And it ain't even broken in!
Were you able to get those green -20dB LEDs flashing?

Yes, a lot of subletys to the DEQ2496, Eldartford. Thanks for making my learning curve a lot shorter! It always pays to follow someone who has already conquered the learning curve.

Last night, I spent a good amount of time with the Behringer, first with the integrated, then my monoblocks. After listening, I must say you are right, the active EQ seems to add nothing more than the "Bypass All" functionality, which is a true accomplishment. No, it's not 100% of what is going into the unit, but it's sooo close, I can think of no high end audio preamp that even gets within the same area code as the Behringer.

With the Atmas, I was able to dial in a bit more upper bass, while cutting back on things a bit around the crossover of my loudspeakers and smoothing out the sound. Now I just need the microphone so I can run the curve of the room, and have the unit apply the appropriate compensation.

Seems like the Behringer is going to be staying, and it will hopefully cure my room anomalies. Right now, I can't think of too much available in today's high end market at $300 that will solve more problems than the Behringer. Problems that many an audiophile aren't aware of, ignore, deny, or go to a lot of trouble to apply room treatments that may create as many issues as they solve. If things continue to progress as they are, the Behringer DEQ2496 is certainly going to have my recommendation.

Thank you again!

Trelja...It took me months of fiddling around to learn how to set up and use the DEC2496. And I are a engineer!

The line level setting is one thing that I found very important, but which many users probably don't bother with. You can monitor the input (electrical) levels using the METER mode. It will, among other things, log the maximum level seen during the course of playing a CD. The procedure I used is as follows. It applies when the Behringer is between the preamp and the power amp, and is cited to illustrate the basic idea. (If you use the digital input this may not be necessary).

1..Mute, or turn off, the power amp.
2..Play a CD that includes some loud parts. (I actually used a test CD put out out by Denon that includes test signals at specific levels like -20dB).
3..Crank up the volume control until the level runs around -20 dB on the green LEDs. (Remember this is dB down from the 0 dB reference). If you use the Denon test CD this -20dB setting can be done exactly.
4..Back off the volume control a bit, and then turn up the power amp gain to what you think is loud.

In my system this setup procedure results in typical music signal running about -20 dB much of the time, and the peak for a whole CD being -6dB or less for both channels. I never see CLIP. However you do the setup, this should be the goal. The basic idea is to make the MSB (bit 16) of a CD correspond to the MSB (bit 24) of the Behringer. Hopefully this will happen automatically if you use the digital input.

Eldartford, I got the unit working for me last night. Like a complete and total IDIOT, I had the inputs going to my integrated, and outputs going to my CD player. After a couple of minutes of playing around, only being able to get output in "Bypass All" mode, I checked the cables, fixed the stupid mistake, and all worked perfectly afterwards.

Funny that I spent all my initial effort on the female XLR adapter for the outputs, and ended up routing the cables to the wrong place. The inputs are a pair of ICs with RCAs on the output of the CDP and male XLRs into the Behringer. From the outputs of the Behringer, I have a Cardas female XLR - female RCA adapter, then a pair of ICs, with RCAs on each end running into the integrated.

I didn't spend enough time afterwards to gauge the sound, but I was able to change things via the DEQ operation, which left me as pleased as punch as it's the goal of an EQ device. Tonight, I'll sit down and listen more critically, and try to ascertain its effects sonically. After that, I'll switch out the integrated and install the AtmaSphere monos. I have a different pair of male RCA - male XLR cables that'll go right into the Atmas. The CDP is variable out via the tube output - currently set at the 11 O'Clock position.

Nothing is being overdriven or underdriven in my opinion, and so far I've listened at quite low levels. My impressions of the sound in "Bypass All" mode are that I agree that the unit is dead quiet, it's just not 100% transparent. I hope that distinction is not lost on anyone. Along with the aforementioned minor reduction - I'm talking very slight, and totally correctable via a bit of EQ I'll add in later. In DEQ mode, it seemed the additional circuitry made itself known even moreso, but I don't want to say too much yet.

Please understand that the level of resolution I have is such that changes in cabling, tubes, etc. are instantly apparent, and this is no different. Still, it's night and day better than any other equalizer I've ever tried. It also easily, and I do mean easily, eclipses any preamp (Blue Circle, Cary, CAT, Joule, Jeff Rowland) I have installed in terms of transparency, detail, resolution, dynamics, etc. - unlike any preamp I have tried, it did a far, far, far better job of not adding or taking away anything to or from the sound.

I'm waiting on the ECM8000 microphone you recommended (Thank you!), and if the room EQ functionality can fix the issues I have had in there, which room treatments helped with, but did not solve, I'll be as big a proponent of the Behringer DEQ2496 as you are. Over the past four years, I have tried all manner of cabling, tubes, CD players, preamplifiers, power amplifiers, and speakers before coming to the conclusion that the room is the issue - and the most important link in the audio chain. So many of us have MAJOR room issues (I have one excellent room, and this lousy room), including a guy I know who is considered one of the biggest gurus in audio, that finding a component that can correct the problems is a far more important purchase than any room treatment, cable, preamp, or front end source.

Trelja...Are you using analog or digital input? On the I/O menu make sure the proper one is selected. If you are using digital you must configure the Behringer for the appropriate sample rate (I/O menu again). If the sample rate is wrong the outputs will be muted.

My unit is dead quiet. The S/N spec is 113 dB. You probably have too much gain following the Behringer. Remember this is a pro sound unit and likes to run at higher line level than the typical home audio equipment. A low level input will also result in not using all the 24 bits of the converters, which probably affects sound quality. Are you using single ended or balanced interconnects? I use single ended for input and balanced for output. If you use single ended make sure that the (-) pin is grounded.

I understand your frustration! This is a very complex and flexible unit, which is good, but it does take a while to figure out how to use it. The real fun will start when you get the mic.

OK, next question... Does the Behringer DEQ2496 only produce sound when operated in bypass mode when both inputs and outputs are in the analog domain? I must have tried every conceivable configuration over a 2 hour period last night, and was only able to get sound when I operated in "Bypass All" mode.

Must I use digital input in order to EQ the sound, without a microphone/RTA?

Initial impressions are that in "Bypass All" mode, the sound does lose a bit as compared to not having the unit in place - most noticeable is a shaving off of some bass heft and weight - which conceivably could be added back in via EQ. A slight amount of noise and hiss is added in, but nothing akin to a normal equalizer, and presuming I can tailor the sound to my tastes/room, I could live with it.

Thank you, Eldartford. That was just the information I needed.

I've got my XLR stuff all in order, and am ready to fire her up, sans microphone, for the initial test drive.

jpbach,
If you are still evaluating here is my two cents, probably worth two cents: first, replace the source; second, replace the bryston (get some tubes in there somewhere - the former cj or something like it recommendation was a good one) and third, for an inexpensive interconnect (not the source of your problem) I just tried the Speltz anti-cables and I do not believe anything comes close to them for under $500 a meter. Good luck. Jeff

Trelja...The mic to use is Behringer ECM8000, available from Parts Express (and other places). Don't forget that you also need a mic cable. I think that it is not included because most professional users of the DEQ2496 will have more than one in their setup, but only need one mic.

If you need a bit of gain (so as to avoid using a preamp) the DEQ2496 can provide this. However, unless you feed the DEQ2496 a relatively high line level signal you will only be using the lower order bits of the 24-bit converter. If you only play CDs with 16 bit data this probably won't matter.

Viridian...The A/D and D/A converters of the DEQ2496 are very good, and you should not be afraid of using them. Just put the DEQ2496 between your preamp and power amp, turn down the power amp gain so that the preamp gain can be cranked up (as necessary to use all the 24 bits) and give it a try. What the hell...$350!!

Marty, I believe the unit is, in itself, as 24/96 DAC - hence the name. It it advertised as both A/D and D/A.

I intend on mine going between my digital source and integrated or powere amp (hopefully, I won't use a preamp).

A little more information can be found at http://www.behringer.com/DEQ2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG

OK, so now that I have sorted some other stuff out, trying the Behringer DEQ 24/96 was next up. Yesterday, I picked one up at the local Guitar Center. Nicely priced at $279.

I was under the impression the unit came with the microphone, which mine did not. Though, after a bit of digging, it seems that the microphone must be purchased separately.

My question, what is the microphone recommended by the folks here?

Once I get up and running, I'll be able to lay out what it did for my systems - good and/or bad. I have one room that has some serious issues, and this guy might be the ticket, if it is as good as promised.

was wondering how old your cables(speaker and ic's)are? i use 8tc and 4tc with kcag ic's. i know this has been a long, hashed out, ongoing issue. but when my system was new i had problems with it being too bright and a little lacking in the bottom end. i went out of town for a week and left my system on at a pretty loud volume level with the cd on repeat to break in\burn in my equipment. to my suprise it did make a huge difference. many people say it is impossible/crazy and many say it is true. but i have to agree that cables break in and smooth out over time.

POSTSCRIPT
I replaced the AQ Alpha Snakes with Monster Interlink 400 Mk II. They make everything sound better, but I still have the balance problem. Next stop, new CD player.

Thanks for the advice.

you sure need to get a good cd player or transport/dac combo. believe me

You should try a Van den Hull: with those, you are sure to lose any information over 500Hz so there you go to get rid of your harsh treble (if you do not mind losing some musicality as well). I went that way to tame my system a few years ago and it worked really well until I realised it got totally boring to listen to.

A few years ago, finding myself in IC hell, I took everything out of the system and replaced it with RadioShacks best. Ever since that has been my "reference" cables. Not the best mind you, just a consistent sound that I can put back into the system to see if the latest wire try-out is causing unusual problems. Highly recommended as starting point, very neutral, not bass shy, not shrill, poor resolution, but reasonably even frequncy response. And yes, even a Music Hall or something CD player would improve system.

Monster Cables have fat bass and restrained detail.

Ernest Lee Farley III

Trelja...As I have commented before, I bought the thing just for the spectrum analyser, and I have analog parametric equalizers which I fully intended to use, based on the spectrum analyser data. But once I heard the DEQ2496 eq results I was hooked.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" :-)

Point well taken, Eldartford.

Neither my system, nor my room is perfect. Such a beast does not exist, no matter what anyone claims of their own system/room.

I would like to give the Behringer EQ a try. Again, my experience, sans - Behringer, with EQ devices has been abysmal, but I'm beginning to believe that it deserves my audition with open ears AND mind. At that point, I would be in a better position to recommend its use, or not.

Grant, you are right. The $200 budget really makes things difficult.

The only point I wanted to make was that I am not a fan of the equalizer solution. And, it's not because I haven't tried. On paper, I think I would LOVE to have an EQ in my system. Trial and error has so far shown me that it's the LAST thing I want. Maybe the Behringer would perform differently?

In my experience, AQ interconnects are normally too bright, if not bass shy (borderline there). The Kimber cabling is even brighter. Now, I will admit it is a difficult task. But, you knowing what cabling I recommend at this price point, I would at least give it a shot. If they can be found used, it could probably be tried for about $200. No sonic guarantees, but even if I upgraded the source (which I would definitely do), those cables would need to be upgraded in pretty short order.

Trelja...Digital algorithms can implement filters and other sorts of processing that are simply not possible with analog circuits. The Behringer has 24/96 A/D and D/A and a floating point DSP module, so forget about resolution. And all the bad things you seem to expect from an equalizer just aren't there with the Behringer. For one example: Signal/Noise is more than 113 dB. Few if any analog circuits are this good.

Obviously I cannot convince you it sounds good by talking about it. Why don't you spring for the $350 and try it? The spectrum analyser alone is worth this much, and can be used to evaluate and adjust non-electronic tweeks. Your system may be perfect, but I doubt your room is, and that is what the EQ is aimed at.

I have not listened to the Behringer EQ, and have heard that there are "good" EQs out in the world, but MY experience, which includes the AudioControl, is that an equalizer is the surest means to destroy the sonics of a high end audio system that I can name.

In short, they do everything I rail about preamps for, taken up another order of magnitude. What they subtract (dynamics, immediacy, slam, clarity, refinement), and what they add (noise, distortion, hash) is a combination I want no parts of.

Again, I have not heard the Behringer, and have been "assured" that good EQs do exist, but if there's one thing I espouse in audio, it's that simpler is better. And, adding another component into the audio chain has proven to me in all but a VERY few cases, has only continued to strengthen that view. Maybe the Behringer is one of those special cases, but I'd have to have that proven to me.

Try Cardas Cross.

FWIW

Harmonic Tech and Acoustic Zen both are Robert Lee creations so I imagine similar sonic signatures...

Also, my own 2 cents, is that every electronic component has a sonic signature so get rid of as many as you can in the stereo chain and get closer to the truth, simplicity is the best way to go

I recommend Harmonic Technology Truthlinks. The Triangles are revealing and so is the Bryston. Though I like them both quite a bit. At any rate, as long as you have this combination you will probably want a cable to help smooth it out. Especially with the Sony as a source!

To be honest, I agree with a lot of the previous posts, you should'nt really spend too much on a cable, that is until you get a better source. Your source is the top of the chain and no amount of manipulating the signal will cure it. Whether that be cables or EQs.

Mapleleafs3...I don't know if this is what you meant, but the DEQ2496 does have darned good A/D and D/A hardware, and if the Sony player's D/A is inferior the DEQ2496 could provide the DAC function, as well as all the other things it can do. Just feed the DEQ2496 digital from the disc player.

Use it as a DAc for now. How much do you have to spend. Dont think wire till you have the best source you plan on having. Wires last.

Jpbach...It's your nickel. But remember that the Spectrum analyser feature of the DEQ2496 is way better than the Radio Shack SPL meter for evaluating the effectiveness of changes to your system/room. Consider its EQ capability as a bonus.

Gmood1, I started the thread thinking the IC's might cure what ails my system. Now I'm going to try replacing the source first. But I will need a new pair of IC's because I'm keeping the Sony as a DVD player.

Tvad, Eldartford, and other EQ posters, thanks for your input, but now I'd like to focus the thread on advice on IC's.

Anyone else with recommendations for good IC's at $200/m or less, new or used?

Without doubt, I think the Paul Speltz anti-cables and anti-ics will do the most for your system as they likely would for many systems far more expensive than your own. A fabulous speaker cable at $60 for a 6 ft. pair and $60 for a one meter pair of single-ended ics or $100 a pair for a 1m pair of XLRs (unless the prices have changed). The Speltz cables and ics are the second best cables I've owned and in my opinion are the audio deal of this century.

The Speltz scs and and especially the ics are warm, yet quite detailed and transparent as they absolutlely minimize the time-smear so often found in inexpensive and even expensive cables. The time-smear will come come across as a hash or grainy sound in the highs and an ill-defined and sloppy bass in the bottom end.

Even with the Speltz products, you're still not out of the woods as you make no mention of AC line conditioning or filtering to minimize the AC noise coming in from the pole. Until you've properly addressed this aspect, I don't think you'll ever get rid of the overly bright and weak bass and ultimately fatiguing sound. Not to mention a few other issues like negative sibilance, the bi-directional digital noise generated by your cdp infecting your other components, etc..

With these two areas properly addressed, you may actually be thrilled with the sonic capabilities of your present system. Never satisfied but always thrilled.

-IMO

Jpbach,

I agree with what the others have said in that you need to be looking at upgrading your source. I would also go one step further and look for one that has been modded with upgraded caps, resistors, etc.

Jpbach,

I'm curious ..why do you feel the need to replace the ICs right now? You may find your ICs are just fine with any Cd player or DAC.