I to have the 804s and do not find the highs to be to bright at all. If you have a bad recording you will know It. The amp plays a big part on how the B&Ws sound. I run all Krell and I find It to be a good match for the B&Ws. I will say the more clean power you give them the better they will sound.
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I have high frequency hearing loss but can still tell when highs are not smooth, and it seems to be the actual recording that makes my 703's harsh sometimes. I got some coarse black cotton mesh and lined the metal mesh tweeter caps with it and it helps the offending program material, although most of my listening is done with the protector caps off altogether. I use Audionote silver I/C cables throughout (AN-V and Sogon 50), and a double run of Vintage Polk Audio Cobra cable to the 703s with the brass jumpers in place(not biwired). My electronics are Simaudio Moon Evolution Series I7 integrated amp and and CD player, and a Dynavector Karat 17D3 MC cartridge on my Pro-Ject 2 experience. Phono stage is Simaudio Moon also. |
I have owned B&W 804S speakers and I did not have a problem with highs at all. Those speakers have the best highs I have ever heard. They are there but not harsh even when played loud. The 804S's were a bit mid-rangy though. The bass was quite good. I played one of my Poison CDs which has a heck of a bass note in it and they handled it incredibly well. My preamp and amp are Adcom and my CD player is a Carver. That equipment is around 15 years old. |
Change the type of music I listen to. Not likely to happen as I grew up listening to the popular music of the 70's, 80's and 90's which was mainly Rock. Actually most of the 70's and 80's rock music is fairly good - apart from Steve Lillywhite stuff and a few other "headbanger" producer/engineers. It is in the late 90's where is starts to get really bad and unlistenable on audiophile quality gear. May I suggest a PEQ? You can program a PEQ with several curves...one to suit compressed rock music, for example with a broad 6 db dip around 3 KHz and going from 1 to 5 Khz. Whilst storing a different curve in memory for "Eva Cassidy high quality" type stuff and for when you watch a movie (movies are deliberately mixed to be dynamic as they are targetted at good cinema systems not car radio listeners). That way you can have your cake an eat it too!! Another alternative would be two sets of speakers...A and B and switch between the two depending on your mood/requirement. Unfortunately 1) there is no way to fix awful recordings...of course it begs the question why bother with a costly system to listen to awful recordings when anything cheap will generally do better. 2) while you can PEQ down - it is much harder to PEQ UP with good effect - I won't go into detail but it tends to sound better in the down direction which makes a transducers life easy rather than the other way round - so if your speaker has no midrange to start with then it is hard to correct as it may be a transducer limitation due to compression or an inherent odd radiation pattern - whilst a speaker with flat midrange and good dispersion can be easily EQ'd down a bit to get a desired effect. |
Why tubes? Tubes are not a panacea. Do these tubes make sound prettier than in real life, is that what you are in fact saying? High frequency roll off maybe or treble softening? So, if that is the case than it is the coloration of tubes you like. So it appears tubes have an euphonic coloration. So this will upset many tube gurus who say that tubes don't have audible coloration. Chris |
I'm well aware of the loudness wars but since we can't change the recordings, there really aren't a whole lot of options to chose from. A few options that come to mind are: 1) Re-purchase the bulk of my CD collection in vinyl since vinyl recordings tend to be mastered better. This option would probably be the costliest and would re-add a degree of manual labor back into the listening experience. 2) Change the type of music I listen to. Not likely to happen as I grew up listening to the popular music of the 70's, 80's and 90's which was mainly Rock. 3) Treat the listening environment. This option depending on the degree of treatment necessary and the quality of the job you want to do can vary from something trivial to something that requires great effort, time, research and cost. 4) Change the equipment connected to your speakers and/or change your speakers. This is probably the most commonly explored option when things start sounding bad |
Speakers do not have to be overly warm or inaccurate to play compressed music without ensuing listening fatigue. I am not sure if I was clear - I don't mean compressed as in iTunes or MP3 - I meant compression of the sound by the mastering engineer to give you a "hot" loud sound...that is they deliberately kill the dynamics using limiters, which also adds all kinds of distortion. If you are having success with Silverline Bolero then IMHO it is probably related to the enormous hole in the midrange from 1 KHz to 5 KHz. This is a fantatsic audiophile speaker but nobody could be criticized for remarking that this is inaccurate reproduction, of a kind which would definitely help reduce harshness and fatigue (many other audiophile speakers are designed this way too and they sound great - google "BBC Dip"). Thanks for helping to clarify what I really meant to say. |
Speakers do not have to be overly warm or inaccurate to play compressed music without ensuing listening fatigue. There are many better examples to prove the point. I can mention just one, that I have in my system- Silverline Bolero. It has Dynaudio Esotar 330 soft dome tweeter, that can hardly be described as "inaccurate". No listening fatique there. It is very accurate and revealing as well. If the speaker, B&W in this instance, is giving you listening fatigue- it is not good, don't blame the recording. You are in this hobby to enjoy the music and not to suffer poorly designed components. The cure- SELL ASAP |
Same prob here, I've just recently posted to find some suggestions for what to do to help with my 703's. I've auditioned mine with a Classe CA2200 and very much liked them, but couldn't find a used one at the time. Went with a Musical Fidelity A308CR Preamp and pair of Electrocompaniet AW220's and I'm thinking about replacing the amps. It's not only the highs that bother me but the missing bass, at least in my system. Interesting to hear that I'm not the only one who finds that Eva Cassidy sounds pretty good on the system, yet other albums I just can't bring myself to listen to. Well, good luck with improving your sound and if you find something you really think helped please post it here. Thanks |
When it comes to using these speakers for HT purposes, I honestly can't find any fault - even if I try. It makes me wonder if designing speakers to reproduce movies and music requires a compromise in one to benefit the other. What you are discovering is Audio Compression...certain forms of music are highly compressed. Eva cassidy is not. Movies are not. This is why they sound good on your system. Hyper compressed rock, pop and alternative is common these days and it will sound fatiguing. Switching to a less accurate speaker with laid back midrange and smooth warm sound may help...but it is a "band aid" not a cure...besides do you want to put a band-aid over the beautiful sounding Live at Blues Alley - just so you can play Metallica without having to cover your ears - the choice is yours... See this Turn Me Up for more information. |
I also have 703's and I'm experiencing the same problem as the original poster. For certain types of music that don't involve too much high frequency information these speakers play wonderfully. A good example would be Eva Cassidy's Live a Blues Alley. For other recordings such as any Rock album that involves wailing guitars the music just starts to hurt the ears after couple of songs. When it comes to using these speakers for HT purposes, I honestly can't find any fault - even if I try. It makes me wonder if designing speakers to reproduce movies and music requires a compromise in one to benefit the other. But getting back to the original topic, I'm thinking of giving a pair of 805's a listen to see if their top end is smoother. I think the 703's are clinically revealing as opposed to musically revealing, that's how I justify the day&night difference the present on movies vs music. |
A softer warmer amp will help if you already have an amp that is slightly bright like a Rotel. The Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista would be a wonderful alternative that would soften the highs a little but still sound incredible. If on a lesser budget, go with a NAD amp or even a cheaper yet Harman Kardon 2 channel which has a warm sound. Of course, if you don't like bright highs but still want detail, get some Dalis or even smoother yet Dynaudio speakers instead. |
Judy426 is entitled to his/her opinion. But I respectfully disagree. B & W produces some magnificent speakers. I've been very, very impressed with the Nautilus and Signature lines (a bit less so with the new diamonds). I have heard a lot of speakers that I would never choose over B & W, including the Paradigms, Vienna Acoustics, and even ProAc. And I also quite liked the Krell gear that I've heard with the B & W's. My ultimate preference is tubed electronics, but when you listen to EAI and noise, these so-called "non-musical" components do quite nicely. I prefer JM Lab to B & W, but I still appreciate B & W. I think their products are well-crafted and sound superb. |
>>Bashing ones system without having heard it is pointless and petty<< Big mistake my little friend. Nobody bashed anybody's system. I'm taking issue with the manufacturer's product. Let's understand that first. Secondly, I reiterate, B&W is a great company, with great distribution, and great retailers. The product, however, stinks. |
First of all B&W is the 2nd largest speaker manufacture in the world only behind Bose. Could that account for the # of speakers for sale on the used market. More than likely. Being to lazy to check which series are for sale and not knowing whether those selling are upgrading to other B&W speakers I will not judge. One must build a system and judge what works best in their system. Bashing ones system without having heard it is pointless and petty. Michael |
Just something I notice from time to time - indisputably there are lots of B&W's listed for sale, and also indisputably they sell a lot of them. PSB and Paradigm also sell lots of low priced speakers, but there aren't many listed - try to find some PSB Stratus Mini's (I am) rarely available. So I don't know that the fact that B&W sells so many accounts for the number for sale here. Seems out of proportion to me. |
Your dealer has Logan's and you're thinking of replacing your B&W's that can ear damaging tweeters with more B&W's? Am I'm missing something here? Doesn't he set the Logan's up? Have you heard them? And you're thinking about more B&W's? Huh? See if he's got a deal on some discontinued Ascent i's, or anything from the Logan line - that will be a total and complete upgrade. |
Wow...a lot of generalities being thrown around here and more myth than fact. Let's start at the top... B&W produces and offers so many speakers that it is impossible to take Judy's (or anyone's) sweeping statements seriously. I have not listened to each and every B&W speaker - I have seriously auditioned each speaker in the Nautilus 800 line and have concluded the N805 is the best of the lot (IMHO) especially when mated with a sub like the REL Strata III. Some of the qualites I didn't like are mentioned in this thread, but those qualites were not present in each speaker / system I auditioned. So I can't say the exact cause of the issue. But, given the transportabiliy of the N805, I can say that this speaker performed well enough for me in each application I tried to own it for over 5 years. Referencing this one example of the B&W line, I can tell you that you do not need "gobs of power to adequately drive them." Actually, my 50 Watt Sixpacs drive them quite nicely (but, some would argue, 50 Watts is "gobs" of tube power). Better than many of the larger power amps I've owned / auditioned. B&Ws do a lot of things well, and some things not so well. Will they work for you? How the hell will anyone here know? There are many other speakers in the 703's price range to choose from, and yes, you really need to audition what you're buying before wasting your time and money. I will agree with one thing Judy posted - don't buy on name. There is a good chance that if you blindly pick one of the brands menioned in the above post, you may be just (if not more) dissatisfied. Contrary to what some believe, synergy and context is everything. Judy's theory about why there are so many B&W speakers for sale on Audiogon is incorrect as well (and is frequently cited by B&W bashers). B&W sells a lot of speakers, which creates a sizeable secondary market for those speakers. If the product was as awful as represented, the ask / sell price would be significantly less than what is typical (particularly here at a 'audiophile' marketplace) as the demand would be less by those with 'better' knowledge about the product. The market would be flooded by "the Bose of Hifi" and all secondary B&W sales would take place on eBay (to those ignorant about the virues of other 'better' brands). Now, I'm not a B&W zealot. I just don't think one can characterize a speaker (nevertheless an entire line of speakers) so broadly - especially on a forum that debates the virtue of power cords, hardware "break in", and stranded vs. solid core cabling - and expect to be taken seriously. You may think Paradigm is wonderful. I may not. I like tubes. You may not. However, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and like I say around my house, "It's ok for you to be wrong." That doesn't go over well at home, either. |
abb@cs.com - Judy is not being harsh, she is being honest. Sorry to offend, but B&W is "the bose of high-end." Heavily marketed, very bright and tipped up in the treble, meant to suck people in with over-emphasized bass and treble just like Bose. B&W represents the definition of what people mean when they say something is "hi-fi" sounding as oposed to "musical" sounding. The B&W 800 series are better than the 700 series, but you need very high current/wattage to make them sound halfway decent, and they will still have the problems of the 700 series, ie. tipped up treble on a harsh metal tweeter, colored midrange from that kevlar driver, just a non-coherent non-musical sound. I personally would much rather listen to a paradigm, but does your dealer have any other lines than B&W or paradigm? |
Harsh and accurate are two different concepts. You have inferred from my accurate comments that they are harsh. Not so. First, the overall sonic signature of the B&W line is one of lacking musicality. Advocates call them precise and detailed. Truthfully speaking they are dry, lifeless, and fatiguing. As I mentioned prior, you will need gobs of power to adequately drive them. This effectively eliminates most high quality tube amps in favor of the ultra high powered solid state amps such as Krell and Bryston which will drive B&W however 2 wrongs don't make a right. There are many many others to choose from. The list includes but is not limited to (in no particular order) Green Mountain, Zu, Pro Ac, Paradigm, Coincident, Von Schweikert, Vandersteen, Silverline, Hyperion, Merlin, Quad, Usher. Don't buy on name. It that were the case everybody would own B&W. It's a great company. Good distribution, dealers, and customer service. Bad sound. Look at the number of B&W speakers on Audiogon (over 100 pair) as we speak. There's a reason for this. Take some time and listen as opposed to reading. Get more for your hard earned money. Good luck. |
I had B&W speakers in the CDM series which preceded the 703. The metal-domed tweeter was similar to that in the 703. The harsh and prominent highs did diminish with time over 3 years but never disappeared. The best single remedy that worked was to cut some thick felt pads and to fit them around and under the tweeter assembly using double0sided sticky tape. The felt must cover the angular edge below the tweeter to minimise diffraction effects. But in the end I sold them to someone who thought that what emerged from them was exciting hi-fi sound. |
To sell or not. Being a devout B&W fan I would suggest you keep the speakers. But that is just my opinion. Work with room treatments as were already suggested. I found that going with synergystic research kalidiscope phase I interconnects and signature 10 speaker cables in my system helped imensley. Michael |
Has anyone suggested this yet? Sell the speakers. If you don't like their inherent sound, no amount of tweaking and cabling changes will make you a happier listener. Speakers is the component that will affect the sound of your system to a largest degree ( next to your room?). No cables change will ever affect the way your system sounds to the same degree as a new speakers. Regards. |
I have a speaker trade up situation with my dealer (Listening Room, Saginaw, MI). I can trade them up every year, recieved 100% of my money towards a more expensive pair. The 703 were the most logical upgrade (financially) this year. Next year, I can get into the B&W 800 series, or the Paradigm Signature line. I have found that in the past month or so, the highs are taming some on thier own, so it may be just a long break-in period. |
I agree with the other posts. It's time to sell the speakers and move on. It's tough to admit that you made a mistake, but we have all done it. I bought a pair of speakers once that just did not match the equipment that I already had. The highs were bright with too much sibilance. The speakers sounded great when I auditioned them, but just didn't work with my room, equipment, etc. I ultimately sold them, and bought other speakers. That was far easier than going to work on all my other equipment. Jeff |
Take what Nrenter says with a grain (or maybe a tablespoon full) of salt. Anyone that spends the amount of time on building their own cables as Nick does, is not right in the head. All kidding aside. I have been to Nick's house and listened to his system, it's very nice. You might shoot him an email about tube rolling, speaker placement, cables and so on to tame the brightness. |
Before you make too many changes to fix your "problem", make sure your 703s are fully broken in. IMHO, B&Ws need some serious time to really break in, and until they do, they sound a bit conjested (and may accentuate a perceived brightness). If you've only been casually using your 703s since acquisition, I'd bet they are nowhere near broken in. It took me 3 years of casual use of a HTM-2 to tonally match a set of N805s. Also, one of the most ignored component of systems (IMHO) is the room itself. Toe in is but one consideration. Check your speaker distances from room boundaries. What's on your walls / floors? What type (and how much) furniture is in your room? Unless you look at your room with a critical eye (and ear), you may be playing the hardware hokey-pokey to no avail and no matter how much you "upgrade" you may never be happy (unless you find that magic combination that compensates for your room). If I was going to begin to swap hardware, I'd recommend re-evaluating the cables you're using (and silver cable is probably not the way to go). I really like the older PS Audio X-stream interconnects (and have them cryo'ed if possible). I don't find they roll off the highs, but they have a full, robust sound that compliments B&Ws articulate nature. I've built my own speaker cables, so I don't have any recommendations there. Finally, tube rolling may be a (much) cheaper alternative than speaker / amp / cable rolling. Rolling the 12BZ7s in the Sixpacs or the 6SN7s in the AE-3 DJH may be the way to go. |
Sorry. Didn't see the equipment listing. Silver wire I don't think would tame the highs. Maybe Conrad Johnson stuff? Hmmm, I've got B&W 602's in my bedroom hooked up to a Rogue integrated. That helped tame the brightness a lot in my system. You might try a different speaker, like a JM Cobalt, and see how it responds to your gear. That would help isolate whether you need new amps or new speakers. |
I really thought it would hard to have harsh highs with tube equipment, but I do! This is the first set of speakers I have owned while using tubes that have harsh highs. It is not extreme enough for me to get to electronics, I guess it is something that I will have to tolerate, at least for the time being. |
I'm dealing with a similar problem right now. I've never heard 703s but I own a pair of 602s that I believe use the same tweeter, and I don't know why, but I found that bringing the speaker forward about 3 feet from the wall actually tamed the highs a bit (at first they were only about a foot and a half or so away from the rear wall). They're still too bright for me, but I definitely noticed a difference. If your 703s are close to a wall try bringing them forward and seeing if you notice anything. I was going to try tubes to tame the highs on these but your experience here is making me lose confidence in that plan! |
