Avalon Eidolon Diamond vs Revel Salon 2

Johnsonwu. I can't imagine why you'd listen to"grainier" sounding speaker where "both" have a tendency to "thin out"; instead of buying something to enjoy. Maybe it's time to
move up?

Trcnetmsncom. Agree. Hope he finds something good.

I've heard Avalon speakers many times at a high end shop in Boston. I think they are misunderstood by audiophiles with good intentions trying to fit them into the wrong room. These speakers need room to breath. I've heard them best 10 feet from the rear wall and 6 feet from the the sides.
Listen to them in a good room before ripping them apart with uninformed opinions.

I use my own DIY preamp based on an MFA lumi.
It's ability to convey "body" and "image density" compensates for the tendency to thinness of the avalons. I have owned a few BAT pcs before.

Regarding moving up. I realized I moved up by moving down to a DIY modded utopia divas hence the eidolon moving out of my house. The diamonds are definitely all round better than the eidolons, and doesn't have the bass issues of the utopia. But when it comes to chamber music nothing comes close to the infamously bad made for home theater utopia divas I spent time modding. As for the avalons, no access so no mods possible.

Bo1972, you seem to know the traits of speakers very well. What do you think of Vivid Audio speakers like the B1?

To be honnest I saw them at shows a few times. They did not wake my attention. I se you use Tact. I sold it and to be honnest it is not that good. I sold the Millenium to one of my best friends. 2 months ago I apologized to him to say: witht the knowledge I have now I never would have sold it to you. This week I sold his Millenium at last. 2 months ago I was a t a show with my own set. Many said that I was the absolute sound by far of the show. Lyngdorf were here as well. With the 2.2 and samen subwoofers as you have. It was one of the most worst demo's. I was watching the people of Lyngdorf in there eyes during listening. And I thought; they are not even aware how bad it sounds. My demo was superior in speed, timing, 3 dimensional image, naural sound, extrem sharp touchable image. I see you use Nordost. I owned the Valhalla for over 12 years and I sold a lot Valhalla as well. This is not a good combination with Tact. Why? because you need different properties for the talents and sound of your system. For me sound is often like 1 and 1 is 2. I have a photographic memory in sound. I can Always compare the first option with the next. In 10 sec I know what is missing and what is good of every set with my own music. Wenn people use cables, amps, sources etc I tested I know what will be the sound of them togheter. I can discribe it in words before I use a number. I do this many times wenn I have to Judge a set of a client or at a show.

My experience with Avalon Eidolon's is consistent with Trcnetmsncom's description. Tonally spot on. Acoustic instruments sound supremely real and timbrally accurate. I don't hear that same outcome with many systems displaying Eidolon's because I'm hearing the thin inaccurate sound of the electronics preceding the speakers.

As Bjesien points out, the Eidolon's and Isis speakers need room to breath. They need to be well out from the front and side walls of the room.

Curiously, I note that Bo1972 consistently references "Avalon" not Eidolons or Isis models. If I recall correctly, he described his principal experience as being with the models preceding the Eidolon and subsequent designs from the Neil Patel era of the company. Just noting...
.

I listen to many many Avalon speakers. As well the Eidolons and the Diamonds. Yesss they need room, but that is not the problem. I have doubts about the sound, but I Always say: sound is a personal matter. Beside this; I like the shape and how it is build. I love the wide and deep stage as well. I never heard the extreme realistic small and direct touchable image of voices and instruments what I experienced at my friends house with classical music. I miss the intimacy. At audio shows I hear that most people who give a demo are not capable of what they are doing. They do not know the properties of al the parts they use in there demo set. This is the key to the absolute sound. Many use cables which are not capable of giving the right small dimensions of instruments and voices. Avalon has not a lot of extreme small and touchable image of instruments and voices. Often they use MIT cables with Avalon. I sold it and I owned it. MIT can make a wide and deep stage just like Avalon speakers. Both they are not able to give an extreme 3d touchable image like you have the feeling if they are in front of you like in real. So you need cables with other properties to get a more intimate sound. I think many people in this business are f.... blind and deaf. I heard the Sentinel a few times. One time I asked to play Nils Lofgren acoustic live. The guitar was much too big in proportion. This I really hate. Was the same wenn I listend for 1,5 hours with my own music to Wilson Audio Alexandria 2. This was even worse. Because Nils Lofgren had a very very big guitar. Wenn I played Jacintha light my fire the crossflute was in the same line as her voice was. In the recording it is about 3-4 meters behind her voice.

Maybe ex dealers / reps have gone deaf from too much listening??? Or have caught that terrible affliction, analyzitis--must be very painful; perhaps a good reason for a negative attitude?

Disagree with Rushton. I still have the ascents and they are side by side with the eidolons. The ascents by Hansen don't go high enough nor do they go deep. But they are more coherent and do not thin out as much as eidolon when driven with trl Samson (the only thing that has enough power for them). Image size and body are slightly superior.

If there's a problem with Avalon speakers its the need to have someone who actually knows what they should sound like properly locate them. I heard a pair of Eidolons set up correctly only once years ago at dB Audio's second location on Shattuck Ave, In Berkeley California.

I remember they were driven by an Ayre V-3 with Cardas cable but little else. Subsequent installations at shows and other stores never came close to the dB Audio setup.

Bo1972s accounts with Avalon are completely understandable. While Avalon provides fairly detailed setup instructions not knowing what should sound like is a huge handicap. I guess this could be said of any speaker.

From memory I thought I had mine dialed in until someone in the industry with this familiarity moved them about eight inches back and less than two inches wider apart which created a substantial improvement.

Many dealers sell the brands they have. These days the prefer what delivers the most money. I am only interested in the best sound for a client. Ayre has not the same quality as Pass Labs. Stage is less wide, and less deep. The sound realism is not in the same league as Pass Labs. With Avalon you get a smaller stage in dept and in wide wenn you use Ayre. Wenn speakers use faster speaker units, you will get less acoustic problems. Speed is the key to sound realism and less acoustic problems.

The words "thin" and "thin out" are exactly what I was pointing out about the Avalons. The words and concept is said in above many times, because it is true.

For some folks this thinning exposes more detail (or APPARENT detail) and makes them feel like they are hearing more, so they are more convinced by the presentation. As for me, I have never heard muted trumpets, unmuted trumpets, violins, oboes, operatic sopranos and tenors sound as thin and borderline screechy in real life, especially when played at realistic volume levels (and I don't mean screaming levels, I don't listen to rock). This includes demos by Avalon themselves, Avalon dealers, Avalon importers, Avalon home user systems, and tests in my place.

It is a sound that many find compelling, so we will read more "my Avalons are SPOT ON tonally", "my Avalons using this B.S.XYZ cable don't sound this way" in posts after this one. Despite that previous above, and upcoming below baloney, this is the general house voicing and it is well known in the industry. If it appeals to you great. My comments about the Revels were to point out that their voicing is richer, which is positively a fact. The Revel voicing is more like the Rockport voicing.

The sound of the 2 speakers is quite different and in the same system you would clearly hear this.

I have no horse in the race, I currently own neither. As usual, beware of posters who own only one or the other piece of equipment, look up "internal dissonance theory". When someone owns it they automatically gravitate toward the attitude that their love object is perfect. Better to find the guy who is not satisfied with anything and can quickly name the faults of everything. A curmudgeon like that will tell you what to look for and hold back nothing.

The level what I have at home is so stunning, that it is very easy to let people hear what a 3 dimensional image is. Like it is easy to make Avalon owners aware about the difference in touchabel image. We are talking about superior difference. They understand directly what I mean with a small and direct touchable 3d image. They all use the same words. I never heard my music this touchable. I can think about 3-4 steps further in sound than other people in this business can. My photographic memory in sounds makes it a lot easier to come to this level. Of every single part in my system I know exactly what it does. Wenn you use Wilson Audio speakers with Pass labs and Shunyata cables you will get instruments which are too big in proportion. Wenn I would do a demo I ever would be a f..fool to make this combo. Because I know exactly what all the different properties are. I also miss the timbre in the mid freq of the Avalon. I see this as a personal thing. I use the word thin wenn an instrument or voice is not sharp like a knife in touchable 3d focus. Wenn I listend to classical music at my friends house I was pulled to the voice like a magnet. This is intimate sound like I want it to be. I never heard an Avalon doe this. Why? Because it does not have this property. It is that easy. My new Audioquest 2013 Redwood cable ( older have less silver) is the first loudspeakercable what I heard and tested which is capable of giving an extreme intimate sound like I experienced in real. The Oak has many of the same talents but is just made of copper. I sold this one with Avalon speakers. Now it is the Avalon speaker witht the best touchable sound I ever heard. But......what my Pl-200 does in this part is still superior. Now I blow every person away with ease. They all say: mmmmmmmmm...this is heaven and I would love to have this as well. What is the main problem in audio? Show's are done by people with not enough knowledge about all the stuff they use. They often make misstakes with the combination of gear. Cable use they really do not know what the properties are. In many shops I still hear this misstakes as well. I visit many people with audio sets from 12000 dollar till 180.000 dollar. Only a few had a good balanced audio set. Most of them had combination flaw's.

Yes, Bo1972, we know you have superhuman hearing and can hear things differently and better than normal humans with the best human hearing. You have told us of your superior ability many times. I am surprised you have not been hired by musicians, musical instructors, and loudspeaker manufacturers. Given you have such gifts, it is amazing you remain so humble about them.

Where can I hear your system? If I sold all audio I own and bought your system components I would save hundreds of thousands of dollars AND have better sound!

Omsed that makes me realize I am a horse hoarder. Three thoroughbred Avalons and a bastardized Focal. Heard the rockport Mira driven by lamm hybrids and audio research ref5 a few years ago. Ouch!!! Thin and sharp as a butchers cleaver.

I live in Holland.I am addicted to music since I was 6. It is not about my system. I am thinking in tools. An amp, source, cable, speaker etc is a tool for me. I label all tools. All parts were you Judge a sound system at I call the properties/talents of a tool. Wenn you know the poperties it will become more easy to use them in a system. In 15 years I have done hundreds of tests with different tools in audio and in vision. This gives a lot of information. This give me more freedom to adapt a system. The first thing I do for clients is only change the place of there speakers. Normally withb a few cm's maximum. I let a client play his favorite music for about 25 min. After this I use a few cd's to adapt it to the acoustic of the room. And to get the right dimensions of instruments and voices. After this I ask the person to play the same numbers as wenn he started. Then I often see a very big smile on there faces. I say: and this is for free. It is about using the right stuff to get a very high level in sound. In the last 2,5 years I did a lot of testing with roomacoustic measurements. I developed my own way of doing measurements. Next week people of a famous shipyard comes to my house. We will talk about sound and vison for yachts. With Audyssey pro I can get a much higher level in sound than what is even possible without it. All the different parts of Audyssey Pro I can demonstrate. Roomcorrection is just 1/3 of the whole system. I let people here wehat it does. I can put them all out. My way of measurements has a lot more dynamics and resolution compared to Audyssey does. I measure at different places and hights. I even get people hear what my measurements do with the sound. This is not the acoustic part.

Just to be clear... My comments are only in response to Bo1972's characterization of the Avalon sonics. (I simply do not hear in my own system what he ascribes to them.) My comments are not intended as a comparison to the Revel speakers. A friend has Revel Studio Ultimas in his system and I find his system completely captivating -- I get sucked in every time I visit. I haven't been similarly captivated by the Salons but I've not heard them in well set up, either.

I've heard the Avalons in very limited audition only and in less than ideal setup in a very small and cramped room.

For sure, I can say they are a unique breed of sound with some unique charms. Lots of mid-range energy and a sound that was more lean than bloated was what I recall. I left with a favorable impression, though I would have to do more time listening to them under better circumstances in order to get a better feel. These were heard at JS audio in Bethesda, MD a few years back.

Avalons do have their charms, the airy imaging, clarity, and a similar character top to bottom.

But they absolutely have a sound, which is one of being leaner and colder than the Revels, and the OP wanted a comparison.

This "sound" can be tiring to many, though plenty of warm tubes in front of them can help.

This "sound" (as opposed to some speakers having very little of their own "sound") is likely a reason, or the reason, they don't make it to mastering studios, which the Revels have. This is also why I prefer the Salons. My experience has been that most folks who don't like Avalons don't like them for this exact same reason, the lean colder sound. However, my posts are not intended to be Avalon "slams". They are more refined and more seamless than the vast majority of speakers including those 2 big currently very popular brands that are so hot on the market right now.

There are many different flavours and that's a very positive thing. And yess you can choose your own stuff to make it even more your own personal sound. Every speaker will Always have there own sound and how the image is projected. There is one thing very common and that is many people stick to the same brands for a long time. Hearing other brands is sometimes what they try to avoid. Narrow thinking is what many do in this business. Wenn you open your perspective you will hear that there are more brands. And sometimes it is even better than what you own now.

Agreed, more than 50 sets of top tier speakers in my career. 10 sets of transducers right now. Can't make the mistake of narrowing down to one set of colorations when you are in the business. One is used to check another, to check that, and so forth.

Omsed,

Although I appreciate your candor I do not agree with you. Guess what, that is what makes this hobby so great. Your Thin and Thin out is someone else's perfect balance. Maybe it is because we have different equipment, different rooms and differing tastes. Herein lies the rub in Audio. You never know how a component will sound until you get it into YOUR system. This is why many sage audiophiles tell potential buyers to demo the unit(s) in their homes through local dealers. It is not a B.S. line it is Wise practice. Psst will only learn of each speakers sonic merits through trial and error.

Anyone out there who wants to get a pair of perfect balance speakers? I have two for sale and you are welcome to bring your own gear to my place and try out.

Chuck+1, as I see it the most help that can be given a query such as this is to give ones direct in home experience, with a clear description of ones system and in the case os speakers, the room.

We can appreciate the intensions of those who profess their degree of experience. Unfortunately describing casual impressions from stores and shows is quite useless.

The only thing I take away from auditioning speakers at shows and stores is any glaring higher frequency sonic issues and the idea of living with the looks of the product. But that's me.