Not to bump an old thread, but there is also now a dCS Paganini asynchronous USB Upsampler but I expect it to be very expensive. |
To original poster: your ship has come in. Check out the new dCS Puccini u-clock which is both a separate word clock and asynchronous USB to PCM converter. For your setup it is probably the best device on the market, and if I understand correctly it would be a double upgrade for you. First, it is an external wordclock for both your Purcell and Delius AND your transport which in this case would be a USB capable computer. Second, and I am not entirely sure about this, but using proper asyncronous USB has some inherent advantages with respect to jitter over SPDIF and so it may be better than what you are using now in that respect.
Also the price is expensive but not too bad--about $5,000? |
Benefits of USB - Currently the implementations are superior to networked, and most wirless networked servers do not support 24/96.
Networked is superior technically to USB because the clock is regenerated at the receiving unit. It is being held-back performance-wise by the implementations only IMO. This will change for the better in the near future.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Manufacturer |
I have finally tried out the Trends UD-10. Damn good unit. For the price, best USB to SPDIF converter I have heard, hands down -- this is stock, USB powered. I have not even tried the battery supply yet. |
Could someone please explain what the benefits are of going USB into a device that will output SPDIF, as compared to going ethernet (network) into a device that will output SPDIF?
What determines the quality here is the device that creates SPDIF signal, not the type of async transport to it?
So the question is, why not using SB3? Why insist on USB as transport? |
The Sonos ZP80 has Optical and coax digital output for superior audio quality. I use it with Mark Levinson DAC, N32 Pre Amp and Wilson speakers. Not as good as vinyl but easy to play and quite good. |
Go on Ebay and do a search for "USB to SPDIF Converter". There is one on there now for $35. Then go find an EAD DSP-7000 MKII DAC on the cheap and I think you will experience a life changing event for around $300. |
I currently use FLAC+Foobar with M-Audio 192 Audiophile (PCI card and ASIO) feeding my Marantz AV Receiver thru SPDIF, but I want to go a step further and feed an external DAC thru the USB port and finally into my Aragon 18K pre-amp , Aragon 4004 MkII Dual-Mono power-amp and Mirage m-5si speakers.
So we have two problems, USB->SPDIF and choice of DAC.
I'll takle the USB->SPDIF now as DACs are a whole other matter, we (end users) have not many (credible!) options availabe and the price factor compplicates things.
LessLoss and HagUSB both cost about the same, but dont know much about LessLoss's product then we have a 30USD option from http://www.diykits.com.hk/dac.html (is it an option?!?) and finally the Emprirical Audio's products, of which I do not question the quality just the price, not that they are over-priced, just to me unfortunalty especially since I still have to buy a DAC (any comments on CIAudio's VDA2 http://www.ciaudio.com/vda2.html)
This leaves a huge price gap with only one contender the USB Freeway2, is it so clearly inferior to the other models?! what can I expect from it? |
Others:
HagUSB, LessLoss, m-audio audiophile USB
Waveterminal is not current, not manuf. anymore.
Steve N. |
Can anyone list all or most of the current devices out there that convert USB to S/PDIF for connecting a computer to a DAC?
I am aware of the products by:
Red Wine Audio
Empirical Audio
U24 Waveterminal
M-Audio Transit (modded and unmodded)
Airport Express (modded and unmodded)
Others? |
I have a headroom total bithead right now, which goes out of the USB of any computer (instantly recognized as a destination for sound out in your preferences) and to some ultimate ears or powered monitors. it's more than okay and a huge improvement over the minijack out for the cans. however, I am looking into the apogee mini-dac versus the wavelength brick, for a more permanent setup with a computer that I might leave in my main system. another thing I tried is the new outlaw rr2150 receiver, which is a strong integrated amp that has a USB input. sounds pretty great for the money. any comparisons already made between brick and mini-dac? |
"How about a SPDIF with a Monarchy DIP? I would like to use a DAC soI just need good SPDIF output."
If you are wanting a "good S/PDIF output", this will not get it for you. It just changes the jitter. |
"How is transit stock? Pretty good quality?"
It's only mediocre as all stock equipment is.
"Why is the mod necessary and how do we do it?"
The mod makes it sound good. Add modded Superclock3 and change the circuit to S/PDIF output, improve power delivery/power supply. Not for amateurs.
Also, can you explain how to upsample in foobar or itune?
Foobar upsamplers are excellent, particularly SRC, also know as "Secret Rabbit Code". I bundle this with my converters since I have a license to distribute it. You save the .dll file in the "Components" folder of Foobar2000. This is all explained on my website.
Do they do it automatically, or do we have to do something?
You have to select resampler in the DSP functions of Foobar2000. They when you play anything, it upsamples to 24/96 or 24/88 (you select) as it streams.
Steve N. |
yep. it's qite good :) the only caveat for me is the level, quite quiet in comparison to my cd (the same goes for logitech music anywhere as well btw...) |
Has anyone else spent time listening to the U24 as a D/A converter? I have taken USB out of my laptop into the U24 and then ran left and right RCA's out of the U24 into my preamp. This little box has no right sounding as good as it does given how much it cost. |
How about a SPDIF with a Monarchy DIP? I would like to use a DAC soI just need good SPDIF output. |
i am also planning on creating a decent PC-based music server for my stereo. now, which way to go? via Stereo-Link Model 1300 USB DAC, or Slim Devices Squeezebox, or should i get the music to my amp through Apogee Mini-DAC (most expensive of the options i mentioned).
which would be best sounding, anyone made comparisons? I don't have a standalone DAC in my system. |
I had been looking into establishing a PC based music server. Many of the posts on audiogon suggest improvement in performance by replacing the transport with WAV files on PC. Other's note improvement from using USB connections. I have been comparing CD played through Levinson N390S into N32 pre Amp, and Levinson 334 Amp. My speakers are Wilson P7. I have not found the pc Audio to equal my system The Xitel Pro Hi-Fi link connected vis Toslink ton 390s DAC was just fair. The HagUsb is very good. It connects Via RCA digital to my DAC. I found that Flac at its lowest compression was not nearly as good as the best WAV file. Windows Media was not nearly as good as WinAmp set on Direct output. Foobar was closer to the real thing but Less transparent. I do not feel that the HagUSB plays a role in the change in quality In talking too its designer; there are still drivers running in windows that affects the sound. Apparently the new windows platform will reduce some of these issues.
I must say that the sound quality is still very good but not yet equal to the best. |
This is probably old news to most of you, but I just noticed that the Outlaw 990 SSP has a USB input for receiving an audio signal from a PC. Their web site does not explain what type of signal (untainted 44.1 kHz?). I can't comment on the sound of the Outlaw. But it's good to know that equipment makers may be moving in this direction. |
Sadly, I gather the Waveterminal is no longer in production. So, if you can find one, its probably an endangered species. I'd just froogle it or google it and see if there is a decent deal out there. |
Is there a good online source (Canada/US) for the Waveterminal U24? I am looking to getting started on a hard drive based system using an Apple powerbook.
Thanks,
Rene |
Edsilva - if you look in the "components" folder of Foobar200 in Program Files, the ASIO .dll should be there if you are using it. |
Is ASIO something they could have licensed and baked into the ESI24.dll driver?
Very possible. |
Edesilva - I got a deal on a U24 a few months back. I'm running the V 2.61 driver. My control panel doesn't say ASIO 2.0, just an ASIO "logo" in the corner. Foobar recognizes my U24 as an ASIO capable output device. I believe the capability is inherint to the esiu24.dll. No ASIO dll in my system files either.
Would like to experiment with the upsampling and SRC however I am content with my 44.1 performance. I have experimented with the Convolver DSP plugin. I have acheived my absolute best sound utilizing ASIO ouput as well as this plugin. Specifically utilizing an impulse entitled "SPL GoldMike Impulse.wav" On some slightly "brighter" recordings I have had excellent results with a "neutral.wav" impulse. I believe I got these at a site called www.noisevault.com
I did try a friends DIY NonOS DAC with the U24 (less the Convolver plugin) and the sound was easily bested by the plugin utilizing the GoldMike impulse. The plugin does not increase CPU usage on my computer at all.
At any rate, Convolver is a great plugin in my camp - but be worth a little experimentation in yours as well. Have fun. |
Hmm... Neither ASIO.dll nor ASIO4ALL.dll shows up if I run a search on *.dll. Yet, the Waveterminal behaves like its ASIO, the "control panel" says "ASIO 2.0" on it prominently, and the website states: "MME & DirectSound Driver, ASIO 2.0, Direct KS for SONAR" under features. Is ASIO something they could have licensed and baked into the ESI24.dll driver? |
Edsilva - have you had much trouble with pops and ticks with ASIO and Foobar?
Is it the ASIO .dll or ASIO4ALL? |
I double checked, I am using the ASIO with foobar... The waveterminal does not upsample, however. |
Edsilva - I found the Edirol UA-25 to be fairly good, but great after I modded it. I only used the Edirol in "advanced" mode to output 24/96, which uses a custom driver on the PC rather than the windows driver, which is terrible.
If the Waveterminal passes 44.1, then this would make sense. It must use a custom driver.
The driver makes the biggest difference in sound, but it is also important to bypass windows Kmixer with ASIO plug-in for Foobar2000. If you dont have ASIO plug-in for Foobar2000 just email me and I will send it to you. You can tell if you are going through Kmixer by bringing up the windows volume controls and see if any of the sliders affect the volume while you are playing music. If they do, then you are still going through Kmixer. You need ASIO.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Manufacturer/modder
nugent@empiricalaudio.com |
Kfreichen - the modded Transit is a product that I sell. It has a modified Superclock3, improved power, including Black Gates and the Toslink is replaced with coax output. I chose the Transit because it has some of the best drivers, does not require switching to do 24/96 and passes most all formats, including MP3 and AC3. more info is at:
http://www.empiricalaudio.com
I'm not the only modder using the Transit. My mods are the most technical though. Several manufacturers use this as their reference source. |
Gonglee wrote:
"How is transit stock? Pretty good quality?"
Not really. Only has Toslink output.
Why is the mod necessary and how do we do it?
To eliminate the Toslink output and improve the power and clock. Really difficult mod unless you are a professional reworker.
Also, can you explain how to upsample in foobar or itune?
This is explained on my website on the "Computer Audio" webpage: http://www.empiricalaudio.com . All of the links are there. If you need ASIO for Foobar2000, just send me an email and I will send it to you.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Manufacturer/modder |
"At the moment, what you suggest seems like the way to go: PC card outputting upsampled digital via AES/EBU, with card driven by DAC wordclock."
The problem with PC add-in cards is the PC power supply and grounding. The external box will be quieter and have lower jitter. It can also be battery powered, which improves things considerably.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Manufacturer/modder |
No, I use ASIO .dll with Foobar and the Transit drivers. I upsample to 24/96 using SRC. I've tried other sample rates, including 88.2. They just dont sound as good as SRC at 24/96, particularly piano, which sounds very live. |
Correct me if I'm wrong but are you guys doing all of this and still using Windows sound drivers? Hopefully you are utilizing the ASIO USB driver and selecting it in your Foobar output preferences. Just curious. |
I'll try it, but my recollection is that it has no effect. Think it might even be grayed out. |
Edsilva - If you open the volume control for windows using control panel, do the sliders have any effect on the audio??
Just wondering if KMIXER is bypassed.
Steve N. |
Audioengr-
The Waveterminal does have a driver, but after poking around, I think its limited to 24/96 output tops, and I believe the 96 may, in fact, be an internal upscaler. I think, if I read right, that its 44.1/48 only.
Oh well... It still sounds damn good run through the dCS Purcell and Delius. |
Edsilva - does your waveterminal have a driver that you load on the PC? |
Onhwy61 - I have used and modded the Big Ben. I found it to work exceptionally well for reducing jitter. The effect was immediately noticable. Deciding whether it is worth the price for what it does is up to each individual. It also has the benefit of displaying the input sample rate. |
Edsilva - I look at a PC as a general purpose tool, and a very flexible one. It is like having a set of adapters and sockets with a socket wrench rather than a set of open-end wrenches. The sockets can get into tighter spots and the sockets are interchangeable. You can change the way that the socket wrenches work and their configurations. The open-end wrenches are good, but have limitations. They only work one way with fixed sizes.
DSP processors have certain ways of doing data manipulation. They can be faster at doing some things than software. Software really has no functional limitations, just the size and latency/speed of the code. Hardware is the most limiting for implementing upsampling codes. This is why hardware implementations are usually outdated quickly and do not sound as good. Not that a good code could not be implemented in hardware. |
How is transit stock? Pretty good quality?
It only has Toslink out - not so great.
Why is the mod necessary and how do we do it?
The mod changes the Toslink to coax, improves the edge-rates, isolates with a pulse transformer and matches the impedance precisely. It also adds a modified Superclock3. Quite technical, this mod, and a LOT of surface-mount work.
Also, can you explain how to upsample in foobar or itune?
This is explained on the computer audio page of my website:
http://www.empiricalaudio.com
Do they do it automatically, or do we have to do something?
You have to select resampling in Foobar preferences - see the website for instructions and screen-shots.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Manufacturer/modder |
Interesting--glad you chimed in. Maybe I'll look at my Waveterminal again to see if it is capable of something better than 16/44 and give it a go.
I'm still a bit puzzled by the "why," however. In my admittedly simplistic view, you need software and hardware. Sure, PC software is pretty flexible, but so is a lot of firmware; I upgrade various bits of it across my network all the time. And, I think most processors these days are built to be upgradeable with software downloads.
I concur that the collective minds of sourceforge may have built a better algorithm with SRC; I just don't know. But, you still have the hardware issue...
I guess I think of a PC like a good mass market "please everyone" car like a Honda Civic. Sure, you can tack on some upgrades, open up the intake and exhaust, put on better rubber, tweak the CPU, and you might end up with a pretty quick car that might even beat something labeled as a sports car, like a BMW coupe. You can go even further, rip out the excess weight in the interior, implement engine upgrades, install nitrous, tweak the suspension, improve the aerodynamics, and maybe end up with a car that will take a real sports car, like a Carrera. But, I just have a hard time seeing one of those street racers take on something built from the ground up, no compromise, as a sports car like the Lotus Elise or a Dodge Viper.
Anyway, that was my thinking. Perhaps computers and cars aren't a good analogy. Anyway, guess if my WT24 will pass 24/96, I'll find out... |
Edsilva - I mod a LOT of different DAC's, and upsampling engines, including the P-1A, Benchmark DAC-1 and the DIP, so I get to hear the output quality of these hardware and firmware upsamplers.
The Secret Rabbit Code (SRC) upsampler with Foobar2000 is simply the best that I have heard, when played through my Off-Ramp converters. Software upsampling will always be more flexible for generating upsampling algorithms. Hardware and firmware implementations have limitations that software does not have. These algorithms are not trivial to implement in hardware, even using DSP engines.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Manufacturer/modder |
I'd be interested in hearing from Audioengr, I'm curious how anyone can make the blanket statement that foobar's upsampling is better than hardware upsampling... Don't get me wrong, I love foobar. But, foobar is a piece of software written for consumer processors. High end companies like dCS and Theta have access to the same body of knowledge used to create the algorithms for foobar, plus the ability to use custom, specific purpose ASICs in hardware decoding that I have to believe can contribute to better upsampling...
That said, I've never run my foobar at 24/96. FBOW, I don't think my Waveterminal will pass 24/96. But, I've been quite happy with audio quality of my Waveterminal into a dCS Purcell/Delius combo... |
Rk_t, Empirical Audio's web site (Audioengr in this thread) suggests that one should use Foobar software to upconvert to 24/96, because it allegedly is better than hardware upsampling. There may be other software that upconverts to 24/192?
At the moment, what you suggest seems like the way to go: PC card outputting upsampled digital via AES/EBU, with card driven by DAC wordclock. As long as the card is not processing the signal, only outputting an upconverted but otherwise untainted PCM signal from disk. Seems like a better solution than a USB-to-digital converter that is not driven by a wordclock. I'm new at this, so if anyone disagrees or has the best way to go from PC to DAC, I'd also appreciate the suggestions. |
Rk_t, I think you hit the nail on the head. I'm sure someone could write software (or maybe it exists) to use the PC processor to upsample, but... seems to me that would be pretty processor intensive and subject to the vagaries of whatever other daemons or processes demand CPU time. I'm guessing you are better off matching your Elgar with a dCS Purcell if the upsampling really matters to you... |
my path is about to be: RME PCI card output to DCS elgar+ for conversion with the card's WC slaved to the elgar in mastermode. the RME card claims to output 24/192 but isn't my signal from the PC stuck at 16/44? is it even possible to output 24/192 through AES/EBU or digital outs from a PC? if so, is this a function of the source files i'm using? i'm using masterclock mode to reduce jitter, but is this worth it if the signal is stuck at 16/44 and i'm not upsampling at all?
|
What is wrong with using your SB2 feeding into your dCS?
I am going to use the SB2 feeding into my EMM Labs... |
Ultraviolet -- hey man, the U24 came first so I've had it plugged in and have not tested the Audiophile. Unfortunately the weak link in my system is my larger than life ROOM! It is 45' l x 24' w x 20' h. Yeah, 20' ceilings. You wouldn't believe how these ML Request electrostats disappear in this room.
So I am probably not the best judge of source sound quality right now... U24 sounds good to my ear though, no better or worse than a CD source (although I do not have a high end CD source). Will let you know here if I decide to pull this Audiophile out of the box. Thanks for all your posts. |
I use the u24 and run itunes with Apple lossless as well, and run it into an Apogee Mini DAC. Incredible combination. |
I just installed my u24 and run itunes with Apple lossless into my Meridian 861 v4 and can say it is on par with my 800 v4 reference dvd player/transport. This is mind blowingly convenient and sounds phenomenal. |
