Rsbeck, the apogee is a fine DAC, from all I've heard. But, I don't think it is in the same league as the Hbrandt's $14K dCS stack. While apogee is forward thinking in incorporating USB into the box, there are very high end DACs that don't--the U24 and M-Audio pieces work well in those applications. You may want to try a Waveterminal for your application. I didn't think the stock Transit/Sonica family sounded that great compared to some other pieces, but they still sounded pretty darn good with decent source material, so I still don't understand why you had bad results. Maybe a bad unit?
As an oddball sidenote, I had my g/f close her eyes and played some short clips from the same song through iTunes. One an uncompressed .wav file ripped with EAC. The other was a derivative mp3 created with LAME using the "alt preset extreme" VBR setting--a *very* high quality mp3 that I've heard many say is overkill. Yet, she was able to clearly ID the .wav as "sounding fuller" and "better"--notwithstanding the fact that she has significant hearing loss. |
Edesilva, I've had the exact same experience too in comparing VBR mp3 and a .wav out of an M-Audio Firewire Audiophile. Interestingly enough, if I convert the VBR mp3 and burn it to disc (I use the program burrrn. It's free, uses LAME to decode and does gapless burning of tracks), and burn the .wav (or just play the original cd) the difference between the two decreases dramatically (though I still notice it on most tracks). I've noticed this on other setups as well. Something's going on which I haven't figured out yet. I've tried Winamp and Foobar and have had the same results. |
When you say you "convert the VBR mp3," do you mean turn it back into a .wav? Hmm. If that is what you meant, one possible explanation may be that the CPU has to do more processing on an mp3 and that somehow causes audible changes--i.e., its "easier" for the computer to play back a .wav? Strange. But, it does take some serious time to create mp3s, so maybe... |
Yes, I mean convert mp3 to wav. I can't imagine it has anything to do with processing power. If my ipod can do it at all then my 3.0ghz machine should be doing it effortlessly. One thing I haven't bothered to do is a .wav on the hdd versus the same track on cd. |
This is a great conversation and I'd bet it has been read by many looking for the right solution for PC SPDIF out.
Ultraviolet/Rsbeck's gon posts about the M-Audio Audiophile (USB, firewire) have made me skeptical of the unit before it arrives on Wednesday. The PC digital out is the last piece in my system and has been the most difficult to choose. Here are the most important things I have gathered:
1. The M-Audio Audiophile USB using SPDIF digital to external DAC at least sounds different (and reportedly worse) than other units such as the Waveterminal U24. I haven't found any direct comparisons with RME or SoundDeluxe. All I've read about those are they are recommended. You can get a used RME card with SPDIF for about the same price as a USB Audiophile.
2. The piece matters! I'm going to re-post Dmitrydr's comment. If true, this seems to be the most important thing to know about buying SPDIF out for a PC: "you'll need a box (where jitter will inevitably appear) that accepts USB data flow, and converts it to SPDIF, i.e. performs quality reclocking, etc. Here, if this box is treated just as part of the audio system, and connected with short good SPDIF cable to the DAC, there should be less jitter then from a normal CD player. However, for low jitter this box must have audiophile-grade power supply, oscillator, and other parts, so its price level must be expected somewhere near any other audiophile DAC. Cheap solutions must introduce lots of jitter, making the whole idea nonsense."
3. The Waveterminal U24 is capable of not re-sampling 44.1 CD audio which may account for its truer sound (but no one seems to know for sure).
Oh, and Hbrandt -- you got me interested in this reclocking business with the Apogee Big Ben comments. Please convince me not to spend another $1k on it or I probably will ;-) |
You can go from your computer to a Big Ben, You have to go from the computer to a converter that will convert USB to SPDiF. Edirol makes such a unit. Then take SPDiF from the Big Ben to the digital input in your DAC or Pre-Pro.
Computer -- USB -- USB/SPDiF Converter -- SPDiF -- Big Ben -- SPDiF -- DAC or Pre-Pro.
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>>the apogee is a fine DAC, from all I've heard. But, I don't think it is in the same league as the Hbrandt's $14K dCS stack.<<
I don't mean to suggest that it is, but you can go directly from the computer to the Apogee Mini-Dac via USB, you don't need anything in between. The Apogee Mini-Dac has a Re-clocking solution based on the Big Ben. So, if you use the Apogee to re-clock rather than a Big Ben, you might be able to simplify a little and have less gear between your computer and DAC. I believe the Big Ben and Mini-Dac are similar in cost.
The question is -- if you go digital to the Mini-Dac or Big Ben and Digital out, do they both re-clock the signal --- or do they only reclock if they convert from digital to analog. I don't have the answer to that.
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I'm not worried about the Big Ben right now... neither the Waveterminal nor Audiophile have arrived yet. |
Okay, I emailed Apogee. The Big Ben will reclock the signal and keep it in digital. The Mini-Dac will not. The Mini-Dac reclocks the signal and then converts it to analog. Afterall, it is a digital to analog converter. |
Right. I wasn't implying the Big Ben could replace a DAC or PC audio device. |
The Big Ben is design to act as a master digital clock in a recording studio environment. If you're running three or more pieces of digital equipment all sort of gremlins start to appear if you try to clock the devices in a chain-like manner. The Big Ben provides a very high quality master clock that all the various digital equipment can sync to. While it may work as a jitter reduction device, it probably is overkill for all but the most high end of audiophile systems. Particularly if you D/A reclocks or upsamples, the Big Ben is really not needed. |
Winchell, I'm interested to hear what you think about the Audiophile. I'm still using it for the simple reason that I don't feel like shelling out more money for a product that isn't all the way there. We are very much in the early growing pains in terms of products dealing with hdd playback. A year from now, I am convinced, will present us with vastly better/more options. The M-Audio is fine, but it's definitely the weak link. The other reason why I'm still living with it is because my next product is definitely going to give me the capability of browsing with remote from the couch. It is a PAIN to not be able to skip around, pause or anything else. I know a few of these products exist already, but they either work 50% of the time, or they look like a bad alarm clock and none of them have the browsing capability I want.
I retrospect, I'm glad I only got the Audiophile, because I would not want to drop $1000+ and not be able to sit and enjoy the music without getting up constantly. |
There are lots of ways to solve that problem -- the technology already exists.
There's nothing stopping you from having a laptop right in front of you, with which you can control volume, select songs, etc.
If your hard drive is part of a home theater, you can use something like a Mac Mini, plug it ito your video display and use a remote mouse to control the volume and select songs from your video display. |
And there are still others. |
Kfreichen - to answer your question, I now offer two products, the Off-Ramp Turbo and the Freeway that are modified Transit boards with external power supplies. I also offer a battery power supply for them. They both convert USB to digital coax, but the Off-Ramp has a Superclock3 as master clock. These are very low jitter sources that can pass 24/96 data upsampled by Foobar.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Manufacturer/modder |
I just installed my u24 and run itunes with Apple lossless into my Meridian 861 v4 and can say it is on par with my 800 v4 reference dvd player/transport. This is mind blowingly convenient and sounds phenomenal. |
I use the u24 and run itunes with Apple lossless as well, and run it into an Apogee Mini DAC. Incredible combination. |
Ultraviolet -- hey man, the U24 came first so I've had it plugged in and have not tested the Audiophile. Unfortunately the weak link in my system is my larger than life ROOM! It is 45' l x 24' w x 20' h. Yeah, 20' ceilings. You wouldn't believe how these ML Request electrostats disappear in this room.
So I am probably not the best judge of source sound quality right now... U24 sounds good to my ear though, no better or worse than a CD source (although I do not have a high end CD source). Will let you know here if I decide to pull this Audiophile out of the box. Thanks for all your posts. |
What is wrong with using your SB2 feeding into your dCS?
I am going to use the SB2 feeding into my EMM Labs... |
my path is about to be: RME PCI card output to DCS elgar+ for conversion with the card's WC slaved to the elgar in mastermode. the RME card claims to output 24/192 but isn't my signal from the PC stuck at 16/44? is it even possible to output 24/192 through AES/EBU or digital outs from a PC? if so, is this a function of the source files i'm using? i'm using masterclock mode to reduce jitter, but is this worth it if the signal is stuck at 16/44 and i'm not upsampling at all?
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Rk_t, I think you hit the nail on the head. I'm sure someone could write software (or maybe it exists) to use the PC processor to upsample, but... seems to me that would be pretty processor intensive and subject to the vagaries of whatever other daemons or processes demand CPU time. I'm guessing you are better off matching your Elgar with a dCS Purcell if the upsampling really matters to you... |
Rk_t, Empirical Audio's web site (Audioengr in this thread) suggests that one should use Foobar software to upconvert to 24/96, because it allegedly is better than hardware upsampling. There may be other software that upconverts to 24/192?
At the moment, what you suggest seems like the way to go: PC card outputting upsampled digital via AES/EBU, with card driven by DAC wordclock. As long as the card is not processing the signal, only outputting an upconverted but otherwise untainted PCM signal from disk. Seems like a better solution than a USB-to-digital converter that is not driven by a wordclock. I'm new at this, so if anyone disagrees or has the best way to go from PC to DAC, I'd also appreciate the suggestions. |
I'd be interested in hearing from Audioengr, I'm curious how anyone can make the blanket statement that foobar's upsampling is better than hardware upsampling... Don't get me wrong, I love foobar. But, foobar is a piece of software written for consumer processors. High end companies like dCS and Theta have access to the same body of knowledge used to create the algorithms for foobar, plus the ability to use custom, specific purpose ASICs in hardware decoding that I have to believe can contribute to better upsampling...
That said, I've never run my foobar at 24/96. FBOW, I don't think my Waveterminal will pass 24/96. But, I've been quite happy with audio quality of my Waveterminal into a dCS Purcell/Delius combo... |
Edsilva - I mod a LOT of different DAC's, and upsampling engines, including the P-1A, Benchmark DAC-1 and the DIP, so I get to hear the output quality of these hardware and firmware upsamplers.
The Secret Rabbit Code (SRC) upsampler with Foobar2000 is simply the best that I have heard, when played through my Off-Ramp converters. Software upsampling will always be more flexible for generating upsampling algorithms. Hardware and firmware implementations have limitations that software does not have. These algorithms are not trivial to implement in hardware, even using DSP engines.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Manufacturer/modder |
Interesting--glad you chimed in. Maybe I'll look at my Waveterminal again to see if it is capable of something better than 16/44 and give it a go.
I'm still a bit puzzled by the "why," however. In my admittedly simplistic view, you need software and hardware. Sure, PC software is pretty flexible, but so is a lot of firmware; I upgrade various bits of it across my network all the time. And, I think most processors these days are built to be upgradeable with software downloads.
I concur that the collective minds of sourceforge may have built a better algorithm with SRC; I just don't know. But, you still have the hardware issue...
I guess I think of a PC like a good mass market "please everyone" car like a Honda Civic. Sure, you can tack on some upgrades, open up the intake and exhaust, put on better rubber, tweak the CPU, and you might end up with a pretty quick car that might even beat something labeled as a sports car, like a BMW coupe. You can go even further, rip out the excess weight in the interior, implement engine upgrades, install nitrous, tweak the suspension, improve the aerodynamics, and maybe end up with a car that will take a real sports car, like a Carrera. But, I just have a hard time seeing one of those street racers take on something built from the ground up, no compromise, as a sports car like the Lotus Elise or a Dodge Viper.
Anyway, that was my thinking. Perhaps computers and cars aren't a good analogy. Anyway, guess if my WT24 will pass 24/96, I'll find out... |
How is transit stock? Pretty good quality?
It only has Toslink out - not so great.
Why is the mod necessary and how do we do it?
The mod changes the Toslink to coax, improves the edge-rates, isolates with a pulse transformer and matches the impedance precisely. It also adds a modified Superclock3. Quite technical, this mod, and a LOT of surface-mount work.
Also, can you explain how to upsample in foobar or itune?
This is explained on the computer audio page of my website:
http://www.empiricalaudio.com
Do they do it automatically, or do we have to do something?
You have to select resampling in Foobar preferences - see the website for instructions and screen-shots.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Manufacturer/modder |
Edsilva - I look at a PC as a general purpose tool, and a very flexible one. It is like having a set of adapters and sockets with a socket wrench rather than a set of open-end wrenches. The sockets can get into tighter spots and the sockets are interchangeable. You can change the way that the socket wrenches work and their configurations. The open-end wrenches are good, but have limitations. They only work one way with fixed sizes.
DSP processors have certain ways of doing data manipulation. They can be faster at doing some things than software. Software really has no functional limitations, just the size and latency/speed of the code. Hardware is the most limiting for implementing upsampling codes. This is why hardware implementations are usually outdated quickly and do not sound as good. Not that a good code could not be implemented in hardware. |
Onhwy61 - I have used and modded the Big Ben. I found it to work exceptionally well for reducing jitter. The effect was immediately noticable. Deciding whether it is worth the price for what it does is up to each individual. It also has the benefit of displaying the input sample rate. |
Edsilva - does your waveterminal have a driver that you load on the PC? |
Audioengr-
The Waveterminal does have a driver, but after poking around, I think its limited to 24/96 output tops, and I believe the 96 may, in fact, be an internal upscaler. I think, if I read right, that its 44.1/48 only.
Oh well... It still sounds damn good run through the dCS Purcell and Delius. |
Edsilva - If you open the volume control for windows using control panel, do the sliders have any effect on the audio??
Just wondering if KMIXER is bypassed.
Steve N. |
I'll try it, but my recollection is that it has no effect. Think it might even be grayed out. |
Correct me if I'm wrong but are you guys doing all of this and still using Windows sound drivers? Hopefully you are utilizing the ASIO USB driver and selecting it in your Foobar output preferences. Just curious. |
No, I use ASIO .dll with Foobar and the Transit drivers. I upsample to 24/96 using SRC. I've tried other sample rates, including 88.2. They just dont sound as good as SRC at 24/96, particularly piano, which sounds very live. |
"At the moment, what you suggest seems like the way to go: PC card outputting upsampled digital via AES/EBU, with card driven by DAC wordclock."
The problem with PC add-in cards is the PC power supply and grounding. The external box will be quieter and have lower jitter. It can also be battery powered, which improves things considerably.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Manufacturer/modder |
Gonglee wrote:
"How is transit stock? Pretty good quality?"
Not really. Only has Toslink output.
Why is the mod necessary and how do we do it?
To eliminate the Toslink output and improve the power and clock. Really difficult mod unless you are a professional reworker.
Also, can you explain how to upsample in foobar or itune?
This is explained on my website on the "Computer Audio" webpage: http://www.empiricalaudio.com . All of the links are there. If you need ASIO for Foobar2000, just send me an email and I will send it to you.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Manufacturer/modder |
Kfreichen - the modded Transit is a product that I sell. It has a modified Superclock3, improved power, including Black Gates and the Toslink is replaced with coax output. I chose the Transit because it has some of the best drivers, does not require switching to do 24/96 and passes most all formats, including MP3 and AC3. more info is at:
http://www.empiricalaudio.com
I'm not the only modder using the Transit. My mods are the most technical though. Several manufacturers use this as their reference source. |
Edsilva - I found the Edirol UA-25 to be fairly good, but great after I modded it. I only used the Edirol in "advanced" mode to output 24/96, which uses a custom driver on the PC rather than the windows driver, which is terrible.
If the Waveterminal passes 44.1, then this would make sense. It must use a custom driver.
The driver makes the biggest difference in sound, but it is also important to bypass windows Kmixer with ASIO plug-in for Foobar2000. If you dont have ASIO plug-in for Foobar2000 just email me and I will send it to you. You can tell if you are going through Kmixer by bringing up the windows volume controls and see if any of the sliders affect the volume while you are playing music. If they do, then you are still going through Kmixer. You need ASIO.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Manufacturer/modder
nugent@empiricalaudio.com |
I double checked, I am using the ASIO with foobar... The waveterminal does not upsample, however. |
Edsilva - have you had much trouble with pops and ticks with ASIO and Foobar?
Is it the ASIO .dll or ASIO4ALL? |
Hmm... Neither ASIO.dll nor ASIO4ALL.dll shows up if I run a search on *.dll. Yet, the Waveterminal behaves like its ASIO, the "control panel" says "ASIO 2.0" on it prominently, and the website states: "MME & DirectSound Driver, ASIO 2.0, Direct KS for SONAR" under features. Is ASIO something they could have licensed and baked into the ESI24.dll driver? |
Edesilva - I got a deal on a U24 a few months back. I'm running the V 2.61 driver. My control panel doesn't say ASIO 2.0, just an ASIO "logo" in the corner. Foobar recognizes my U24 as an ASIO capable output device. I believe the capability is inherint to the esiu24.dll. No ASIO dll in my system files either.
Would like to experiment with the upsampling and SRC however I am content with my 44.1 performance. I have experimented with the Convolver DSP plugin. I have acheived my absolute best sound utilizing ASIO ouput as well as this plugin. Specifically utilizing an impulse entitled "SPL GoldMike Impulse.wav" On some slightly "brighter" recordings I have had excellent results with a "neutral.wav" impulse. I believe I got these at a site called www.noisevault.com
I did try a friends DIY NonOS DAC with the U24 (less the Convolver plugin) and the sound was easily bested by the plugin utilizing the GoldMike impulse. The plugin does not increase CPU usage on my computer at all.
At any rate, Convolver is a great plugin in my camp - but be worth a little experimentation in yours as well. Have fun. |
Is ASIO something they could have licensed and baked into the ESI24.dll driver?
Very possible. |
Edsilva - if you look in the "components" folder of Foobar200 in Program Files, the ASIO .dll should be there if you are using it. |
Is there a good online source (Canada/US) for the Waveterminal U24? I am looking to getting started on a hard drive based system using an Apple powerbook.
Thanks,
Rene |
Sadly, I gather the Waveterminal is no longer in production. So, if you can find one, its probably an endangered species. I'd just froogle it or google it and see if there is a decent deal out there. |
This is probably old news to most of you, but I just noticed that the Outlaw 990 SSP has a USB input for receiving an audio signal from a PC. Their web site does not explain what type of signal (untainted 44.1 kHz?). I can't comment on the sound of the Outlaw. But it's good to know that equipment makers may be moving in this direction. |
I had been looking into establishing a PC based music server. Many of the posts on audiogon suggest improvement in performance by replacing the transport with WAV files on PC. Other's note improvement from using USB connections. I have been comparing CD played through Levinson N390S into N32 pre Amp, and Levinson 334 Amp. My speakers are Wilson P7. I have not found the pc Audio to equal my system The Xitel Pro Hi-Fi link connected vis Toslink ton 390s DAC was just fair. The HagUsb is very good. It connects Via RCA digital to my DAC. I found that Flac at its lowest compression was not nearly as good as the best WAV file. Windows Media was not nearly as good as WinAmp set on Direct output. Foobar was closer to the real thing but Less transparent. I do not feel that the HagUSB plays a role in the change in quality In talking too its designer; there are still drivers running in windows that affects the sound. Apparently the new windows platform will reduce some of these issues.
I must say that the sound quality is still very good but not yet equal to the best. |
i am also planning on creating a decent PC-based music server for my stereo. now, which way to go? via Stereo-Link Model 1300 USB DAC, or Slim Devices Squeezebox, or should i get the music to my amp through Apogee Mini-DAC (most expensive of the options i mentioned).
which would be best sounding, anyone made comparisons? I don't have a standalone DAC in my system. |
How about a SPDIF with a Monarchy DIP? I would like to use a DAC soI just need good SPDIF output. |
