Audio Desk Systeme - Vinyl Cleaner – Repair of Water Pump Failure

I am sorry for my bad explanation.
The record rotates as usual. The rolling cleaning barrels rotate on their own axis correctly.
The problem is the following. Usually, when the water start rising, firstly the barrels go off the record and then they are released towards the record and start to roll. Well, sometimes, after snapping, they do not apprach back the record and not roll. They are blocked.
Sometimes, it is enough a little finger pressure and they approach the record and start rolling as usual.
sometimes, neither the finger pressure can move them and they remain blocked, spaced 2 centimeters from record.

Hi Decibell,

I recently stumbled across this thread and a joined the forum to connect with you on this subject. I believe I am facing a water pump problem also.

Would you mind sharing some of the photos you may have of your repair experience? I think I'm going to have to take a shot at this myself also!

Best,

Hello, 
I know you’ve had a lot of request for pictures, but could you send me your photos of your repair job on the Audio Desk Record Cleaner.
ive the same problem and no warrenty
can you send it to
gc1923@live.com

much appreciated. Thank you

About three years ago I bought the AudioDesk and it broke after a year or so.  Peter at The Cable Company offered me generous trade-in allowance towards a new Pro model and so I did that.  Now, two years later my Pro has just quit pumping water from the reservoir to the washing area.  I'll never buy another one of these again.

Instead of me asking you send me pictures. Would you consider repairing my unit for a fee ?

Sorry 730waters - I'm not comfortable working on other machines. But I'll be glad to email you pictures and answer questions. It's not very complicated to do the repair. May be you can find a local handy man who can help you?

Hello decibell,

  I just figured that I would ask. I work 6 - 7 days a week and don't have time to dedicate to trying to fix it. Mine stopped pumping water last week  and I was hoping it was just clogged up. I have tried several things that I have seen online. I talked to the rep in PA and he wants me to send it up to him to analyze the problem. After reading this blogged , I am sure the pump has gone up. I have cleaned close to 600 albums with it and cleaned 8 the day before it stopped working. If you ever want to try it without any responsibilities or warranties, let me know. I have had it for 5 years and  I don't think that I will spend another $4500 for a new one.

Well, most of us actually have this same problem - we have a daytime job. Don't look for excuses! Order a pump, get some Tangit PVC glue and gutter sealant and cut this thing open. It does not take much and it is a very rewarding project! I just received a thank you email from another user who was able to replace his failed pump.

Hello decibell,

   I just received my new Pro X model the other day. I have given my old unit to a friend that wants to try and fix the old one. Please send me the instructions for repairing the water pump.  I have talked to one of my subcontractors that supplies all of my custom Plexiglass products and he can separate and put it back together for my buddy. SO if you would please send me the instructions and parts list. 

Thank You,
Greg

I would like to express my deepest appreciation and gratitude to Decibell for pioneering a repair method for our Audio Desk Systeme record cleaning machines. Many of us had resigned ourselves to considering them unrepairable and therefore worthless. Following his instructions, I was able to successfully revive mine. Thank you, Decibell! 

What I have written below should be considered an “addendum” to his work. My purpose is only to further help anyone in our community who might wish to undertake this repair on their own as I did. 

Bottom removal: 

The bottom plate serves no other purpose than to protect the bottom of the internal tank and to hold the rubber feet. It is glued to the tank bottom with PVC cement in 8 locations; one slightly inboard from each corner, and one slightly inboard from the midpoint of each side, 8 total. Each glued area is circular in shape and about the size of a 50 cent piece. 

I used a putty knife with a sharpened blade and gently tapped it into each glue point a little at a time, rotating the record cleaner as I went, until the cover finally popped off. 

Tank bottom “surgery” as described by “decibel”.

Pump replacement: 

I was unable to get the exact replacement pump but did find this one which I thought could easily be made to work. 

https://www.amazon.com/Portable-Submersible-produces-Travelling-Gardening/dp/B07234X3D7 

This “Comet” pump was the same size but the discharge tube exited from the top instead of from the side of the pump body. All I had to do was to remove the piece of rubber hose from the opening at the top of the tank, cut a 1” long piece of ½” dia. clear plastic tubing found in any plumbing supply, install it on the discharge tube of the new pump such that it extended into the same hole as the old one. Then I used silicone aquarium sealant to seal around this hose connection and also to bond the pump to the side of the tank. I also put a “dollop” of silicone over the white protective cover of the wires to secure it to the top of the tank. 

When the silicone had cured (24 hrs), I ran the wiring back through the original opening and secured it to the circuit board of the control panel. I sealed this opening with plumbers putty. 

I also used plumbers putty, available in a small, plastic tub, to make a “ledge” for the panel cut out of the tank bottom. After kneading the putty to make it soft and sticky, I stuck long, flat strips of it to the inside edge of the opening such that about ¼” extended into the opening thereby creating a “ledge.” I place the removed portion of the panel carefully on this ledge making sure the orientation was the same as when removed and that the surface was flush with the tank bottom. Then, using the clear silicone aquarium sealant and adhesive, I filled the gap just slightly proud of the surface and tooled it flush using my fingertip, allowing it to cure for 24 hrs. 

After curing, I placed the record cleaner right-side-up on small blocks, filled it with water, and checked for any leakage. I then ran a few test cleaning cycles with an old LP to make sure all was well. Then I drained the tank and made sure the tank bottom was completely dry. 

Lastly, I reinstalled the bottom plate using the same silicone as above and allowed it to cure for 24 hrs. 

Bottom line: 

Many thanks again to Decibell who developed this repair technique that has allowed many of us to continue using their RCMs without the huge expense of dealing with the factory.

Fred S.

Thanks for the good feedback Fred! With the pump that you found locally repairs are even easier now! Since I posted my instructions in January 2019 I was able to email further information and pictures to a good number of folks with a failed water pump. Instead of the silicone adhesive I found that dark gray gutter glue (HomeDepot) works really well. It sticks a lot better to the PVC-U and remains somewhat flexible/soft over time (like silicone). ADS uses Tangit PVC-U glue to glue everything together. This is great glue for PVC-U, but it gets really hard and does not fill cracks well since it shrinks.

@decibell If you're willing to send pictures I'd appreciate it -- I used my cleaner over the weekend and now (Monday) it's no longer pumping water.  I'm hoping a couple of pictures will help me with confidence to tackle this.
sdavies2720 (at) yahoo.com

Thanks!

@sdavies Sorry for the late response - I was out of town. Just sent you an email with pics and more info. Hope this works for you.
Good luck with the repair.

Is the sign of pump failure or the float sticking water leaking through the fan cover on the face of the vinyl cleaner?

@sdavies Sticking float and leaking fan cover seem to be different issues from a failed pump. So far I did not have these issues with my cleaner. may be someone else can comment here?

@oldsalt 

I'm just guessing here but it seems to me if you have water in the upper chamber, your pump must be working otherwise how would it get there? Again, just guessing, I would suspect a possible overflow situation which should point to a float switch problem.
I've never opened the upper chamber of my cleaner so I'm not sure how the float switch is configured.
Someone in a previous post mentioned running a cleaning agent through his record cleaner. When I had the bottom open in mine to change the pump, I used white vinegar and a brush to clean the dirty residue which had accumulated on the tank bottom over the years. I followed it with clean water, still using a brush. Once fully assembled, I put some white vinegar in with the distilled water and ran the cleaner an entire cycle using an old LP. I dumped it, refilled it with distilled water only, and ran a complete cycle again. Then I mixed a batch of distilled water plus the proper additive and cleaned the same old record as a test. All was well.
Best, Fred

https://www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/241401-sold-fs-audio-desk-systeme-glass-vinyl-cleaner-parts/Here is a link to a sold unit that shows the insides. If I had one of these with a failed pump, I'd cut a big window on the backside with a jigsaw and source another piece of PVC to make a cover plate. Cut some strips out of more PVC and use PVC cement to glue them inside of the perimeter of the cutout. Now it's thick enough that it can be drilled and tapped for threads. Use a piece of 1/8" (3mm) rubber as a gasket. Would make future service a breeze.

BillWojo

I've just joined the broken Audio Desk club. It has stopped pumping the water.This is really frustrating.It would be amazing, if someone with the required skills offered a third party repair service. I think the Audio Desk world would beat a part to their door.Decibell. If you're still following this thread, and still have the photos, I think I could use them.TIAMichael

@ Michael - shinri1
Just send me your email address and I will email you pics. The repair is really not difficult. With a little elbow grease you will be able to do it yourself.

I have a similar problem with my Pro model where it is pumping but only fills halfway.  (~30mm). Has anyone encountered this and if so is the pump going or is there a technique to get it filling properly?

TIA.

Mark

Have to ask, why are people still buying this unit with this know issue?

There appears to be a white insert in the output of the pump as viewed from the top. Does the water pass through this as its porous or does it move? Is it part of the unit or the pump itself?

Thanks,

Mark

After receiving the pictures, I can see that it is the ultrasonic generator and that the water fills up through the edges. My pump has stopped so it’s now time for surgery.  

In reviewing the specifications of the pumps being recommended, I’ve noted something that no one has mentioned and may be the cause of failures. These pumps are specified to have a maximum duty cycle of either 15 or 30mins with a like cooling period after. Now this is NOT mentioned in any of the Audio Desk documentation and if you are doing a batch of records where you do a 5min wash cycle and a 1 min dry cycle, this will obvious cause long term issues if you don’t pause for a time after every third record.

One could make the argument that a continuous flow pump should have been spec’d, but given it wasn’t, this tip may allow others to get more life out of their machines. 

For those interested here is a link to the Comet Elegant 24v pump data sheet that has been referenced: https://www.comet-pumpen.de/fileadmin/pdf/pumpen_datenblaetter/24v/Datenblatt_ELEGANT_24V_1305.79.00...

Note that it states “continuous operation possible”; HOWEVER, its rated lifetime at 24v is only up to 500 hours. 

@mscardina
It takes appr. 10 seconds to pump the water from the tank to the upper compartment. The pump turns off after that and the wash cycle begins. It takes 180.000 pump/wash cycles to use up 500 hours of the pump's lifetime! I don't think pump wear is the issue here. Most likely contamination of the pump's journal bearing with gunk from dirty records.

@decibell, thanks for the response and pictures. I don't believe the pump stops during the wash cycle for 3 reasons. First, the filter in the rear doesn't have a purpose if the water is not continuously circulating. Second, there is no cover that blocks the water from flowing back through the pump when the rollers come together if the pump were to stop. Finally, there is no water level control as the overall quantity decreases if it is not continuously circulating via the filter trough.

I have also examined my motor carefully and while there was "gunk" at the bottom of the tank, the impeller was very clean which make sense as water is flowing through it and it is sealed very well. Assuming a brushless design, the typical failure would be from overheating as my impeller freely turns.

@oldsalt

Leaking from the fan cover sounds like it is overfilled. The float has a embedded magnet on the non-seamed side and there appears to be a magnetic sensor in the white rod hanging from the top of the float cylinder. Therefore the float will not go all the way to the top so you should not fill it above where you can still see the water level. Also make sure the machine is level.

@mscardina
Upon closer look you are correct - the water actually continues to circulate thru the filter during the whole wash cycle. The water level in the tank stays high enough that the pump doesn't lose suction. In the upper compartment it overflows into the filter and flows back down into the tank. So depending on how long one sets the washing cycle, the pump actually runs several minutes each cycle. Assuming a wash cycle of three minutes, it would take 10.000 records to reach 500 hrs.
My pump failed after appr. 1300 wash cycles. I usually did 5 minutes each wash cycle - adding up to appr. 108 hrs total. Upon disassembly I found that my pump still worked, after I rotated the seized impeller by hand. Even though I replaced the pump with a new pump (same model), I know that the old pump is still working fine because I use it in a different application since then. Which means that the motor in my pump did not fail. The pump was only seized due to accumulated dirt inside the hydraulic - probably sticky stuff inside the journal bearing.

This is a pump which is designed to work submerged which would benefit from water cooling. In this design, it is not submerged 90% of the time it is running. Therefore, it is prudent to allow a cooling period every few records if doing extended cleaning. My motor failed without any evidence of bearing failure and showed a 120K ohm resistance which tells me there was an electrical failure most likely thermal in nature. Replacement motor measured 28 ohms. I stand by my concern about premature failure due to duty cycle and believe this recommendation will allow the motor to reach its full specified lifetime.

The Comet Data Sheet states the pump can run dry for 30 minutes without damage …

Yes, I noted that; however, that says nothing about longevity. There are 24v submersible pumps spec’d at 20k hours which seem more appropriate for a $4k machine that is sealed. 

The fact that not all of the cleaner's parts are serviceable/accessible is the true problem here. Every pump will eventually fail and needs to be repaired/replaced. I assume Reiner Glass tried to "protect" his idea by making it inaccessible. Now he's paying the price for this because people will shy away from buying such an expensive toy.

Already did! Shy away from this machine based on ALL the issues.

I know that this is an old thread but I to have an issue with the pump in my Audio Desk record cleaner and I could use some help with getting it fixed. Possibly with pictures if someone has them to see what exactly the process others have taken to fix this issue. I really appreciate any help from the forum.

@kjam If you send me your email address I can send you pics.

I have completed my pump replacement and in the spirit of this thread would like to contribute back some tips and advice. First, thanks go the @decibell and @fred_s for their contributions that were of great assistance!

To begin, I have the Pro version; however, I do not believe any of this advice changes across the other versions. I experienced a pump failure after about 300 records mostly washed for 5min cycles and I started with a used machine that was claimed to have washed less than 200 records. This cannot be confirmed but in my case, I have installed a digital counter that I use to keep track of my use.

TROUBLESHOOTING
If your pump stops working, it can be for one of 3 causes:
1. The pump is not getting 24v,
2. The pump is electrically shorted or open,
3. The pump is jammed or physically stuck.

Now the first two can be checked without any disassembly except for 4 screws to remove the control panel as seen in this picture:
https://imgur.com/S7KfXK7.

To test for #1, use a multimeter set on DC Volts and measure across the Red/Black or Blue/Brown wires with them still plugged in and the machine starting its wash cycle. You can insert probe tips between the square release buttons and the inserted connector. If you get 24v DC then you know the board is doing the right thing.

To test for #2, unplug the machine and using the tip of your probe remove one of the pump wires by pressing it on the associated square button. Then change your meter setting to Ohms and measure between the free connector and the still attached one. You should see a reading between 20 and 100 ohms. In my case it was >100K ohms indicating that the pump had electrically failed. It is also possible you will read <1 ohms which indicates a short. In both cases the pump heeds replacing.

For #3 there is a possibility that this can be handled externally depending on the pump style installed. The intake of the pump is on the same side as the drain hole. If you have a pump that has its impeller on the bottom such as this Comet one: https://imgur.com/WExNAOb, then you may be able to clean it out using a small bottle brush working it under the raised intake. On the other hand, if you have a pump like this: https://imgur.com/J3uTwTw, (which I had) this is not likely to work as it needs to be disassembled to get to the impeller.

PUMP REPLACEMENT
I used the same technique that was described in this thread. Note that the glue holding the bottom of my unit was not flexible, and I needed a stiff putty knife whose blade was part of the handle so that I could use a hammer/mallet to break through the bonds.

Once I had the bottom cut open, I noticed a significant accumulation of gunk on it. This informed me that as part of my change water task, I should use a drain-hole inserted brush to keep this from building up.

The Comet pump I used was the one in the picture above as I could not find a replacement for the original one and it had no identifiable markings. I feel its important not to use one whose flow is too great for two reasons. First, it may pull too much current which could cause the driver circuit to fail on the board. Second, its important that the pump rate is not so great that it evacuates the water quicker than it can be returned via the filter. Therefore 10 l/m appears to be a good target.

To connect the pump I cut about an inch off the existing hose which allowed the pump to be mount vertically and attach to the side with DAP Gutter Sealant. I was not able to source the specialized connectors so I soldered a splice of the original ones as you see in the first picture. Make sure the colors align.

To re-glue the tank bottom, I used a marine 2-part epoxy which has great fill properties and allowed for sanding https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BO0YQU?th=1. Finally, I used the sealant to attach the bottom plate.

OPERATIONAL TIPS
Having gone through this experience and now fully understanding how this machine works, I am modifying my use of it as follows:

1. Recognizing that the pump runs the entire washing cycle time, I am ensuring that I keep to a 50% duty cycle. during any 30 minute session.

2. I pay particular attention to not overfilling as the underside is not totally sealed. For example, the fan wiring holes are open to liquid.

3. When changing the water, I will also do a brush out of the bottom as preventative maintenance.

I hope the above is found useful.

@ mscardina

Congrats on your repair and thanks for adding to our "repair manual" for this record cleaner. Hopefully a few more folks will cut theirs apart, fix 'em, and get 'em back on the road so to speak.

Best, Fred

As an update, my original “pro” pump is from China as ZKSJ DC40A-2440 and supposedly is rated for 30K hours. It does have a ceramic shaft, but mine never came close to that figure. I have only been able to find the 2460 model in individual quantities and the current draw is 1.2A versus .65 as well as rate is 13 l/m versus 10 l/m. Without seeing the circuit diagram I would not be comfortable doubling the current. This pump is OEM’d by many brands but if someone finds a source for single purchase it would be great if you could post it.

One further item regarding this black pump. It is not self-priming. So give that its impeller is not near the bottom as on the other pumps, you need to make sure that there is at least 2” of water in the tank for it to start pumping. Now presumedly the low water level interlock triggered by the float distance will prevent it from starting but its worth noting anyway.

After reviewing the procedure I used to change the pump, there are a couple of thinks I would do differently than described here that I thought I'd share.

When marking the bottom for the cut, instead of using a marker, I would start by first lightly scoring the 4 lines using a razor knife and straightedge. At the 4 corners, I would then drill a 3mm (1/8") hole to define the line ends. Finally I would heavily score the lines in order to create a positive groove to follow with a cut-off wheel or end-cutter tool. This would leave a cleaner cut with protection from going too far to the sides.

The other is that I was uncomfortable in having to totally reassemble and seal the unit to be able to test it especially if I am not using the OEM pump. Once the pump is installed, the unit can be temporarily tested by placing in on a structural foam board or dense foam pad placed in a dish pan/washing tray which can hold at least 2 gals (8 l) and weighted down or clamped with bar clamps. This will allow it to be filled with minimal leakage yet still be able to have the power cord safely attached to test. Once the test is completed, simply unplugging and lifting the unit drains it with the advantage of getting rid of any left over cuttings or debris. This technique would let me test more than one pump with minimal setup.

I did the pump replacement...twice.  The first time I used a pump that was too small, so I had to replace it with a larger pump.  I found the pump on eBay item description: 

900L/H DC 24V Brushless Magnetic Submersible Water Pump Fish Pond Solar Powered

The machine works perfectly.

I had looked at this pump but was concerned it had too much throughput. Glad to hear it works fine as the price is great. 

It will seize again. I think the message is, "do not buy one of these."

I agree with what everyone says about the design and inability to easily repair the unit, but I'm not a "hater".  On the other hand, the machine is amazing at cleaning records.  Even the dryer works great.  I put records in a rack for about thirty minutes just to be sure they're dry.  When I go to the record store now, I buy the ones that don't sound good at a very discounted price.  I clean then up in the machine and they're good as new.

@mscardina 
I am an Audio Desk System pro owner; I've had a used cleaner fail on me; I now own the Pro model.

I saw your advice about cleaning the unit when you change fluid; clean where, exactly - the bottom reservoir tank or the top tank where the rollers are?

If it is the reservoir tank, what kind of brush works well?
Appreciate your advice,
Jeff

@decibell 
I've had a used unit fail on me - pump issues. I now own a Pro model.
Would you be able to send me the pictures and instructions on how to repair the unit, should this happen again?

If it does happen again, I will not be purchasing/exchanging for another unit. I will try to get it fixed.

Thank you and all the other posters for your very valuable repair advice. Much appreciated.
Jeff

mscardina's post on 9-20-2021 is spot on.  The idea of drilling the four corners is a great idea.  I used a drummel tool and cut a bit past each corner.  The little notches at each corner were the points that were hard to seal.

The next time I have to replace the pump, I'm going to move the pump outside the unit by running hoses to bulkhead connectors I'll place on the back of the unit.  It'll be ugly, but very convenient to swap pumps.  Right now I've done 120 records and all is well.