...also listen to Ayre electronics .....they walk in perfect balance between tube and transistor....also, great company
|
I'm most likely the only one on this forum who has demoed up to 53k worth of SS amps on Thiel CS 3.7s.
None of them are able to outperform a VAC Master preamp paired with Jadis Monoblocks on this particular Thiel model.
All demoes are done at my home, not at dealer's or at shows.
|
Thanks, Alon! This *is* one of those moments that make it all worthwhile.
One interesting thing I forgot to mention was a very intriguing discovery I
made during this whole process that might be of interest to those who are
looking for a "giant killer" amplifier.
A friend of mine loaned me his Hafler 500 which had been modified by
John Hillig of Musical Concepts. This amplifier, which retails for well under
$2500 came in second to the 350! It has a midrange to die for and it lent an
incredible musicality to everything I threw at it. It won't win a beauty contest
(the exterior looks like an army foot locker) but I would have started looking
for one to buy if the 350 had not swept me off of my feet.
For those who have $10k tastes but are on a $2000 budget, I recommend
contacting John at Musical Concepts. His gear is truly magical. If you find
one of his modified amplifiers, I'd snap it up. |
Congratulations Vhiner!
Feels so good to arrive at a decision with all that excitement and no regrets, doesn't it?
Wish I could hear your system, it "sounds" wonderful.
Enjoy your Teflon-induced aural bliss. These are the moments we live for as audio nut cases! Well, I do anyway.
Alón |
Thought I'd give everyone an update. I have purchased a mint-condition Conrad-Johnson Premier 350SA amplifier. It is, without a doubt, the best amplifier I have heard with the CS 3.7's. It bested Bryston, Sanders and Classe's latest stereo amps by a clear margin.
Everyone who's heard it in my system is impressed with the bass, soundstage and layered sound stage. I suppose it helps that this amp is mated with a CJ CT5 preamp. To my ears, the 350 SA lives up to its legend. Martin Collum and Jeff Dorgay are spot on about its strengths and prowess. At 600 watts into 4 ohms, it is utterly undaunted by the 3.7's and manages to lift their considerable load with musical ease. Bass is deep and taut and highs are silky and seductive. One friend said, "I never knew what the Thiels were capable of until now." The 350 doesn't sound exactly like tubes, but it's 95 percent there. It definitely belongs on the "must try" list for 3.7 owners. Some at Conrad Johnson have said the 350 could not be made today for less than $15K. I have no way of knowing if that's true, but it sure beats the new $9K amps I put up against it. Must be all that Teflon!
I never could audition a VAC or the Hegel 30. Maybe one day...
Thanks to everyone for your suggestions. |
I looked at it... I would jump on that one, it seems in good shape and it will certainly drive the 3.7s! It's rare to see that model for sale, it won't last long. |
There is one VAC PA100/100 100W selling on AGON now. $1800 |
Alon,
A trip to San Francisco is a joy in and of itself...hearing the VAC/3.7 combo would be sublime. Next time I'm out there, I'll drop you a line. Thanks for all the info!
Vance |
Cal3713: "And dammit, I don't usually fall prey to people talking up components, but I'm going to have to add a VAC amp to the list of interest. That was effective effusement."
Thanks. I've been told I may have potential as a door to door religious cult rep. Tempting as that may be, the audio cult is more than enough for me, and I've been paying dues ( in the $thousands every year ) for a long time! I'm sure others on this thread can relate.
Anyway, I loved your use of "effective effusement," a term I have not heard before. Thanks for recognizing my effective effusement efforts! Gotta love alliteration! |
BAT VK-600 is also another option.
It is more affordable than VAC and HEGEL.
You wont find many used HEGEL or VAC at 50% discount. But BAT frequently seen on AGon. |
07-13-13: Vhiner
Cal3713,
Someone at Thiel told me awhile back that they were very, very pleased with how the Hegel drove the 3.7's. Do you remember which model it was? Their flagship is out of my price range.
~~~~~
It was actually their H300 integrated (with DAC, $5500 new), not even the big boy.
Also, I heard the 2.7s at last years RMAF, and simply didn't like them. Could have been the room, but it was setup by Thiel and was supposed to be the speakers' "unveiling ceremony," so I was sad not to be even slightly moved. I was happy that it solidified my desire to finish my speaker upgrade path with the 3.7s though. I hope I'm wrong, but I feel like they will go down as the last great feat of the company now that Jim is gone.
And dammit, I don't usually fall prey to people talking up components, but I'm going to have to add a VAC amp to the list of interest. That was effective effusement. |
Don't despair, Vhiner,
If you're fast on the draw, you can sometimes find a used VAC Phi 200 on A'gon for about $5000. Not chump change, but better than $10,000! But you do have to ready to pull the trigger right away, as it's rare that someone will part with their amp unless they're upgrading to a bigger VAC.
If you find yourself in San Francisco, come over for a listen. But don't blame me if you sell your car...
Alón |
Sigh. I guess I'll just have to bide my time until the VAC and Hegel gear begins to fall prey to someone's upgrade fever. ;-) New is beyond my grasp. |
Vhiner,
The specs are good, but they don't do justice to the sound. The Phi 200 is one of those special amps (it was just reviewed in the UK's HiFi Critic) that those who have heard it become part of this weird club of crazed enthusiasts (or maybe that's just me...?). Kevin Hayes doesn't design for specs (like low distortion as an example)... they hand make and hand wire each amp point to point and then he personally voices each amp against their reference before it is packed for shipment. Even repairs and upgrades get the same treatment.
Ah, the pleasure of dealing with a small company who knows your name... VAC's customer service is legendary. Once you've experienced it, there's nothing like it.
As for tube life... the amp is so stable that I've not exhausted tubes in less than 18 months, and I have my amps on every day for hours. I've biased the tube set once in the last year and found that it didn't even need it.
Steve Hoffman (the recording engineer) just got a pair of Phi 200 mono blocks and he's amazed (that says a lot!). To think that this is VAC's entry-level amp... |
VAC is indeed powerful tube amp. My VAC sigma 160 is a LOT more powerful than my 200 watts aragon amp.
I Set my sigma volume at 10 o'clock position and it sounded louder than 200 watts aragon set at 12 o'clock position.
As for thiel 3.7, I would go for HEGEL H30. The CS 3.7 speakers are power hungry speakers.
Some even said that the H30 is better than amps costing 2-3x more. |
Alonski,
I read the specs and a few reviews of the Phi 200 and it's clear the monoblocs have what it takes to handle the 3.7's 2 ohm dip. Not many tube amps can do that. How many hours do you get out of a tube set? |
James,
My musical tastes are very eclectic, so I need a speaker that can load my 23X23 room for listening to all my musical genres. In my reference collection that I use to audition sources, components, cables and speakers, you'll find some amazing tracks from superb classical recordings, old jazz, as well as brilliant cuts like ZZ Top's La Grange, Ted Nugent's Stranglehold, Jeff Beck's Goodbye PorkPie Hat and other well recorded uncompressed rock. When I demonstrate my system, I use every genre, and invariably, my guests are stunned, especially by the sheer power of the hard rock tunes. The room just lights up with music that sounds live and sweeps you out of the room and to the recording venue. I usually have to clean up the drool on the carpet after the demo.
The Thiels replaced Von Schweikert Audio Unifield 3 and a pair of REL subs. The U3s are amazing in near-field listening, and with the subs they really rocked, but they don't compare with the ridiculously good performance of the 3.7s in my open plan living space. I still have the subs and will audition them with the 3.7s after the break in period. I believe that most, if not all systems benefit greatly from correctly set-up subs. I'll keep you posted on that.
Vhiner,
My next upgrade is adding another VAC Phi 200 so I get all 200Watts for each channel... I just don't have a place for another amp right now due to WAF considerations. VAC amps are known by fans as being able to control and drive excellent bass from power-hungry speakers. The 100W per channel they put out doesn't sound like much until you realize the massive amount of current they generate. There are no wimpy amps in the VAC line-up. Current is king for bass impact. I fantasize about the VAC flagship amp that puts out 450 per channel, but the monoblocks are about $80,000. |
Alonski,
Isn't it great when a purchase pays off? Thanks for sharing about the VAC
gear. Just curious as to what types of music you generally listen to and how
big your room is. Congrats on joining the 3.7 fan club!
James63,
My preference for watts is not meant to be a statement of orthodoxy. Every
system and room is different. I simply know what I need in my room and in
my system. With the 3.7's, I don't covet more watts in order to raise the
volume; I have found that the "ease", "finesse" and
"agility" of the 3.7's cannot be fully realized with the lower watt
amplifiers I've auditioned. That is not to say that the 3.7's can't sound great
with lower watt amplifiers.
After five years of living with these incredible
speakers, I'm now shooting for something that will help them do their very
best with all types of music. My musical tastes are quite diverse and
eclectic, so it's a tall order. As you say, If I just listened to jazz, I'd get a
great 150-watt tube amp and call it a day. |
Alonski,
Interesting, I have the 2.4s now. I have been going back and forth between the Revel Studio 2 and Thiel 3.7s. I have heard the Salon 2 and 3.7 a good number of times.
Anyway, back on topic I don't think you need 375 watts unless you listen very loud. You just need an amp with stable current output. I have heard the 3.7 on tubes (150ish watts worth) but it was a little boring for my tastes. I listen to hard rock mostly (some audiophile stuff ) and value bass impact and tend to like amps with a high damping factor.
Honesty, I have really enjoyed class D amps because they handle the bass so well. However I don't know that I would recommend them to some one that listens to jazz and classical (I don't) because you give up some of the cleanness in the highs. |
I just bought Thiel CS 3.7s last week. I auditioned them at my local dealer with a 100 watt Macintosh tube amp and a Mac pre, which reproduced wonderful sound and were at least somewhat comparable to the performance of my VAC gear at home.
I also auditioned the CS2.7s, which sounded great in so many ways... but when we hooked up the 3.7s and played the same reference track... well, after the first three seconds of listening, I knew I was done for. I had to spend the money, as I've never heard anything like what these speakers pulled out of my records. I believe this speaker is a true breakthrough in high end loudspeaker design and will come to be known as the best value because to get this quality of sound, you could spend three or four times the $15k these cost. Which of course, means that matching amps is critical. 100 watts of high current tube power is the starting point.
I thought i had an idea what they would sound like at home, but i wasnt prepared...what I'm hearing with the 3.7s being driven by my VAC gear (Signature 2a pre and Phi 200 amp) is breathtaking. it's actually hard to describe the magic coming out of them. The sound is just gorgeous! And that's right out of the box. They will continue to improve for the next 400 hours of use.
Paired with my amps, these are the most natural sounding speakers I've ever heard. Powerful, articulate, revealing micro details without brightness or edge, a midrange to die for, excellent feel in your bones bass, incredible soundstage and holographic imaging... I know, you've heard all that before, but when you hear what they can do with strong tube amps like VAC, well, like I said, impossible to describe the experience fully...like mailing a haircut.
As for reports of being bright or lean -- well, everyone's ears and systems are different. In my home, right now, listening... I'm blown away by how alive and real my rig sounds. The bass is musical, effortless and taut, with absolutely no bloat.
Been doing this crazy hobby (read "obsession") for forty years and I've never been more excited about my sound system.
I think that aside from some tweaks here and there, my system has reached a level that is completely satisfying. I know, audiophile heresy, right? I am now going to rediscover hundreds of my albums. So my recommendation, the VAC Phi 200 or any other VAC component you can get your hands on... They will make your Thiels sing. |
Maybe if I'm patient, an H30 will come up on A'gon for $8k....and not from some unknown character in Germany. ;-) There was an H20 up for $4100 on Audiomart a while ago and I believe it was legit. Hope springs eternal. |
Regarding matching the H20 with a tube preamp, I have heard it used with the Manley 300B preamp several times and it proved to be an excellent combination. |
I've had a chance to hear the 3.7s with alot of gear. IMO, hearing them with the Hegel H30 at RMAF a couple years ago, was the best I ever heard them sound. |
Bill,
Always good to hear from you! The HD20 does 375W into 4 ohms, which, based upon past auditions, is the very lowest power I'll consider for the 3.7's. I will look around for an in-home audition opportunity. The buzz I'm hearing about Hegel is promising. I hope it would mate well with a tube preamp. |
Vance, if the Hegel H30 at $15K is too steep I'd strongly suggest checking out their H20 which lists for $5,750. It is an excellent amp that has received universal praise in reviews worldwide. I can't answer your question as to which amp Thiel recommended, but several speaker manufacturers have chosen to demo with the H20 at various shows. |
Cal3713,
Someone at Thiel told me awhile back that they were very, very pleased with how the Hegel drove the 3.7's. Do you remember which model it was? Their flagship is out of my price range. |
I own 2.4s with an (underpowered) Pass Labs XA30.5 and feel like that series mates very well with the Thiel sound. I heard a pair of 3.7s at RMAF that were powered with Hegel, and that room convinced me that I will eventually upgrade to the 3.7s, and that I will try out a Hegel amp if I get the chance. They really sounded great together. A lot of similar qualities to the Pass amps, but cooler running, and (I think) a bit cheaper watt for watt. |
Jafant,
You are correct about the 3.7's need for power in order to perform optimally. Perhaps it goes without saying, but they also demand high quality watts. I've listened to some megawatt amps that weren't very musical. I wish I knew someone with Krells. |
Big Thiel fan here. The CS 3.7 are power-hungry monsters!
One needs a very big power amp or mono blocks to gain (no pun) all of the aspects that Thiel has to offer.
Keep us posted on your journey. |
I think Richardyc is on to something for all of the thiel owners, the 3.6 and 3.7 owners in General, If eanything can fix the sound of thiels and handle the loads, It would be Krell by a long shot!, Good Luck! |
Audiojan,
How would you describe the Macs' sound with the 3.7's as opposed to the Levinson? |
|
Vhiner -- he runs direct to the Parasounds from a Metric Halo DAC, which has analog volume control. |
Mark Levinson amps works really well with Thiel's. My ML334 and my CS2.4's can really sound magical. I've heard that amp on a pair of 3.7's as well and amazing doesn't even start of cut it...
Other amp that I've heard with 3.7's were a pair of McIntosh MC1.2kW's. Really, really nice, but oh so expensive. |
Drubin,
What preamp does your friend use? |
Jake3tg,
I wish I could afford to own and operate something like the ARC 250's, but alas, they are beyond my reach. Ditto the big VTL's. Bob Carver's Black Beauties might make it down to my neighborhood one day. |
Thanks Richardyc. I agree that the 3.7's are far from bright. They're simply
the most truthful speakers I've ever heard. Ever so occasionally, the truth
can hurt.;-)
I've wondered how the Krell 402 might sound. Would be able to describe
the Krell's character a bit as you hear it? |
Thiels are bright? Maybe 10-15yrs ago with the older models. Ive not heard the new CS1.7, but anything since CS2.4 are not bright, Id call them natural sounding. Maybe they heard them with some bright sounding sources. Anyway, Ive upgraded from a pr of CS2.4s to CS3.7s recently, driving them with a Krell int. amp KAV-400xi and I can listen to them all day long without ear fatigue. I thought the CS2.4s sounded good, but the CS3.7s are so much better, I dont think I can go back to a pr of CS2.4s anymore. |
07-07-13: Vhiner
"They don't produce bass below 35hz as the 3.6's do, but what they do with upper register sound is simply sublime."
That is the main reason I have not committed, I listen to a lot of classic rock and blues in a large room and the bass performance worries me a little. The 3.7's with a sub would probably be awesome, but now your are in the 20k range and the choice in speakers begins to get really interesting. |
A friend drives 3.7s with Parasound JC-1s. The combination sounds pretty great to me and is, comparatively speaking, reasonably affordable. |
Thiels are very good speakers, but they can be bright and forward. They are difficult loads for amps. Bryson tends also to be bright and forward. I would look at a used Audio Research, Mac, BAT, the more power the merrier. Whatever you decide on, either pre-hear it all together to see if it is to your liking, or have the option to return it. |
James63,
Thanks for sharing your experience with those models. It's very instructive and tends to support some of my prejudices. I am currently auditioning a number of amps and will post my impressions when I've finished this phase of the quest. In the meantime, keep the stories coming, please! |
...well I have to apologize. I ment to post these comments in the other thread asking about TAD vs Thiel... Sorry.
So to answer your question. I have heard the thiel 3.7 on a few amps.
Mcintosh MC252. Poor bass control and did not inspire me. Maybe a bigger Mac would have worked.
Very pricy Audio Research ($35,000+) dull, I could have fell asleep. It just lacked dynamics. The sound stage was nice and details good but no slam, no life. I felt the same way when it was hooked up to the Sophia 3 and I know it is a common pairing.
Classe, can't remember the model but it was around 400 watts. It had good body and texture. Lacked some of the fine detail of the AR but had more life for my modern/rock music.
I would try to demo Ayre gear or Pass Labs if you have the money.
|
Not sure how many owners are really on here. At just shy of $14,000 there are a lot of speakers out there. I demoed them a number of time with a number of amps (Audio Research, Classe, Musical fidelity). They are very nice but I just wanted more bass and could not justify spending the money (my 2.4s are surprisingly good/close).
I had Thiel 2.4, Sophia 3, 802diamonds all in the same room/system for comparison and spent a few days listening at a local dealer.
In the end I liked the Revel Salon 2s the best (different dealer) but never bought them, intended too.... Such is life I guess.
But back to the subject thiels are truth tellers and can get lean in a hurry so amp matching is very important. Make sure know the frontend before you judge thiel good or bad. |
I wonder where all the actual 3.7 owners are? Guess they're happily enjoying their systems. ;-) |
Bryston is too lean/forward for thiels for my tastes (own Theil 2.4CS) but they are good amps. I would looks for amps with a warm rich sound.
As good as the 3.7s are I would take the TADs (never heard them). They have a similar design principle and have a cost no object approach. |
As a long-time Thiel owner, I have found that the Thiels sound really sweet with high quality tube amps, particularly if you listen to a lot of classical music (which I do). I have auditioned, but do not currently own, the CS3.7 with both solid state and tube amps, and the tubes produce the more natural sound IMHO. Solid state electronics produce a more "etched" sound with almost holographic imaging, which can be impressive, but live music does not sound like that in my experience.
VTL and ARC are good choices but others may work well, too. I don't care for E.A.R, which I find to be very dark sounding. Just be sure the amp is good at driving low impedances because the Thiels are not particularly easy loads to drive. |
Yyzsantabarbara,
As Mr. Tanner noted in the audiocircle thread, the 3.7's pass along whatever is fed to them....with NO interpretation. This is a double-edged sword, so I am being very careful in my decision making process.
I thought Mr. Tanner implied that the introduction of the squared series allowed more filter down of the 28's sound. That aside, I heard a 4BSST2 with some Maggie 3.7's last week and I thought it was a bit "cold" in presentation but the session was not long and the Maggies have their own issues. I simply can't afford the 28's unless they decide to double my salary at work. That'll be the day. |
Pops,
Thanks for sharing your experience! I owned the 3.6's prior to the 3.7's and can attest that the 3.7 is a serious upgrade but cannot advise as to whether it's worth the money...that's very subjective. I can say that the 3.7's are more transparent, balanced and natural. They don't produce bass below 35hz as the 3.6's do, but what they do with upper register sound is simply sublime. The new tweeter is amazing. They are also more efficient, which widens the range of amplifier choices.
I would love to audition some 501's. |
Vhiner great question and big decision. I have almost bought these speakers twice! I am a long time 3.6 user and have become so accustomed to the clear, coherent and transparent sound other speakers just leave me grappling for more! Including my Eggleston Andra II's.
I have been using Mcintosh 501 mono's for several years and think it is a great combination. Before that Classe - both in the musical high current realm. You also have to be careful with cabling - tons of good options. I cannot use my Tara Labs The One speaker cables for example - too lean and gives the upper midrange a glare.
I have heard the 3.7 in 2 different settings and they sounded great - would love to do a side by side comparison to my 3.6 before spending 14 to 15K. I do know they are reputed to be more forgiving than jim's former line.
I will probably spring for a pair eventually - curious what is up the new owners sleeve in regards to innovation and a possible statement speaker. Good luck in your decision! |
