I am looking for the weak link to improve sound quality. Seems logical it is the Apple TV as a source. Would a moderate streamer inside of $1500 make much of a difference when streaming Tidal and the like?
Current Equipment: Speaker: Dali Euphonia MS-4 AMP: Modwright KWA 150 SE Preamp/ DAC: Peachtree Grand Integrated Source: Tidal / Apple TV
I have never used Tidal, so I can't comment on its SQ with an Apple TV. I wirelessly stream my lossless ripped CDs from my iMac or my wife's MacBook Pro to either an Apple TV or an Airport Express and use the optical out into a DAC. In my experience the SQ using the Apple TV or Airport Express is identical to the Node 2.
My son purchased a Node 2 a while back and he found no difference between it and his Apple TV using his external DAC. He let me try it before returning it and my results were the same as his. I have 4 systems, 2 with an Airport Express and 2 with an Apple TV. I tried the Node 2 with all four of my systems and heard no difference using my DACs. I tried the Node 2 with its internal DAC, but I preferred the SQ with my DACs.
Depending on your DAC, the Synchro-Mesh could make a huge difference, running Toslink from the ATV and AE to the SM and then a good BNC coax from the SM to the DAC.
If $699 is too rich for you, then try the $150 iFi SPDIF iPurifier. Get it on Amazon. Not as good, but should be an improvement. You can get a pretty decent broadcast quality BNC cable and 75 ohm RCA adapters from Markertek.com
A very nice thread, the only one with useful advices I could find nowadays.
So, basically, the total: there is no a cheap dual-wifi/equal to HDMi-audi-connection device that sounds the same as wired HDMI/optical and doesn't have an inner DAC. So if I wanna use an external DAC/AV connected either way to ATV, I can't find it on the market with a low price as just a streaming device (only AEX/ATV/Chromecast) just to transfer audio. And the only way that I may try is a Synrcho-Mesh for low jitter, but nothing will make it as good as HDMI/optical, because the lower a bandwidth/upsampling still be presented.
And just a rhetorical question: why just there is no such a device that provides a full bandwidth and not being a DAC > 200$? What's the point if it's a really needed thing for hi-fi/MQA with either a Tidal/CD/wav/flac. I started to dive in all that not a long time ago, but this is the main issue I stuck with and now siting with HDMI Mac-->DAC :-D
And the only way that I may try is a Synrcho-Mesh for low jitter, but nothing will make it as good as HDMI/optical, because the lower a bandwidth/upsampling still be presented.
HDMI is not hi-res, but Toslink can be depending on the source. Not sure what you are saying here.
Why do you say FLAC will never sound as good as WAV? My understanding is FLAC is 100% lossless. If a device were to decompress the FLAC input and place into a memory buffer which then feeds a DAC, shouldn't FLAC sound as good?
And regarding ethernet, it would seem the fix to all of this crap with sync/async would be to standardize on a protocol for audio that is similar to TCP/IP in that it features error correction built-in which feeds into a memory buffer (memory is cheap nowadays) which would then feed the DAC section. I have no idea why the audio community hasn't figured this out already.
Since adding the Benchmark Dac, I really enjoy the added detail but it seems to be a little brash in my system or at least to what I’m used to. Would the synchro mesh mellow it out a little? Or am I better off getting a more laid back dac? If so what are some good ones in the 1-2k used market?
HDMI is not hi-res, but Toslink can be depending on the source. Not sure what you are saying here.
Steve, what means "HDMI is not hi-res"? HDMI 1.3 by its spec is a Dolby TrueHD / DTS-HD Master Audio bitstream compatible if devices support it. And even if we suggest that HDMI doesn't pass a bitstream hi-res signal, but using it instead of ATV's AirPlay with 16/44.1(-->48) is a huuuge difference, even for my non-perfect ears. And the signal is already PCM/88.2 on AV.
I'm also sorry if I speak incorrect details here, please correct me.
Why do you say FLAC will never sound as good as WAV? My understanding is FLAC is 100% lossless. If a device were to decompress the FLAC input and place into a memory buffer which then feeds a DAC, shouldn't FLAC sound as good?
FLAC and wav contain the same data, however every DAC I have tried with every playback app that I have tried shows that on-the-fly decoding of FLAC impacts SQ. The image and soundstage are affected. You need a good system to hear this, but it's there.
And regarding ethernet, it would seem the fix to all of this crap with sync/async would be to standardize on a protocol for audio that is similar to TCP/IP in that it features error correction built-in which feeds into a memory buffer (memory is cheap nowadays) which would then feed the DAC section. I have no idea why the audio community hasn't figured this out already.
Packetized data with Ethernet works well, however the signal integrity and rise-time still impacts SQ with Ethernet. Therefore, it is still important to have a fast driver in a Router or Switch and low-loss, high-bandwidth Ethernet cables. Adding an isolator also helps with the capacitive leakage across Ethernet transformers.
The bottom line is that there is no panacea. Every interface and protocol seems to have deficiencies. The deficiencies with Ethernet seem to be the easiest to overcome, but at a cost of course.
Since adding the Benchmark Dac, I really enjoy the added detail but it seems to be a little brash in my system or at least to what I’m used to. Would the synchro mesh mellow it out a little? Or am I better off getting a more laid back dac? If so what are some good ones in the 1-2k used market?
If it's a Benchmark DAC3, then there is not much you can do. It is fairly jitter intolerant. It is what it is.
I would recommend to try either the Metrum DACs or the Border Patrol DAC with the Synchro-Mesh. These DAC's enable the benefits of the SM.
Steve, what means "HDMI is not hi-res"? HDMI 1.3 by its spec is a Dolby TrueHD / DTS-HD Master Audio bitstream compatible if devices support it. And even if we suggest that HDMI doesn't pass a bitstream hi-res signal, but using it instead of ATV's AirPlay with 16/44.1(-->48) is a huuuge difference, even for my non-perfect ears. And the signal is already PCM/88.2 on AV.
HDMI protocol was created for movies, not playback of digital audio formats. DTS is great for movies, but even DTS is nothing compared to 24/192 or 512DSD as an audio format. The other problem with HDMI is that lack of good DAC's and reclockers to reduce jitter. The best you can do to reduce jitter is the iFi SPDIF iPurifier which passes Dolby Digital/DTS. I use these in my Home Theater, but not good enough for my audio system.
If your HDMI sounds better than your audio system, you need to upgrade your audio system IMO.
Steve, thx for your response. Just making it clear. If HDMI supports bitstream, that means it transfers a digital signal bit-by-bit, so there can be no jitter lugs whatsoever. E.g. when you transfer a digital video via HDMI you can’t see a radio-style noise on like on old TV screens, because the data comes as is. The only possible visual artefacts you may encounter is a "snow" on some bad cheap cables or don't see anything at all because the data is corrupted. But if it’s a properly made HDMI cable then it doesn’t affect a digital data is transfers. So I just want to make everything clear step-by-step, for example: why 18Gbps (2.0) is not enough to transfer a bitstream hi-res audio via HDMI when here can be no jitter/need for reclockers/etc.?
Steve, thx for your response. Just making it clear. If HDMI supports bitstream, that means it transfers a digital signal bit-by-bit, so there can be no jitter lugs whatsoever.
Not true. Jitter is ALWAYS a factor to minimize. Never zero. Any company that claims zero is dreaming.
But if it’s a properly made HDMI cable then it doesn’t affect a digital data is transfers.
Sure it does. The better the HDMI cable, the more clear and focused the picture will be.
why 18Gbps (2.0) is not enough to transfer a bitstream hi-res audio via HDMI when here can be no jitter/need for reclockers/etc.?
This is not just bandwidth, although that is important. The dielectric absorption and reflections from the fast-rising digital signal impinging on the discontinuities in the conductor crystal-lattice all cause the signal to have poor "integrity". What is important is the risetime of the signal, not the frequency of the signal. It requires a really good HDMI cable, Ethernet cable, S/PDIF cable or USB cable to maintain these risetimes and not create reflections that impact sound quality.
This is why I only use pure silver digital cables from Wireworld or Empirical Audio. It’s the difference between music and live music.
As for reclockers, these make an even bigger difference for both Home Theater Dolby Digital and for PCM audio tracks. You don't know what you are missing until you try one of these. For $150 for the iFi SPDIF iPurifier, what do you have to lose? Just return it to Amazon if it doesn't work for you. This will give you a small taste of what a reclocker can do.
Sure it does. The better the HDMI cable, the more clear and focused the picture will be.
Not true. The picture is digital, pixel-by-pixel. It's not a radio signal. For example, some answers from proper guys here https://goo.gl/Wx7Skp HDMI doesn't have an error-correction protocol, but you either get a picture as-is or don't get it at all.
For $150 for the iFi SPDIF iPurifier, what do you have to lose? Just return it to Amazon if it doesn't work for you. This will give you a small taste of what a reclocker can do.
Agreed. Waiting for my Chromecast Audio/iPurifier to try.
You all have my head spinning and I am glad I found this thread...if only to resurrect it 3 months later. I am in the process of building a new home office. I am a graphic-designer for a living and thus DEEPLY entrenched in the Apple eco-system. I have a few older gen ATV's and AX's laying around. My plan for my office was a pair of KEF LS50 wireless connected to an older ATV via Toslink. I do have some HD audio files in my library that I would love to hear at their full potential but it sounds like in order to do so, my idea of using the older ATV via Toslink may need a rethink?...
I’m glad I found this thread as well. I’ve been looking at using a Chromecast Audio and / or AppleTV as a streaming device. I saw the iFi Purifier and comments that it really cleans up the optical output. Talked to Rich B at Signature Sound about one of those just yesterday...
Funny thing... I’ve also been eyeballing the Border Patrol DAC. Steve, thanks for your candor in this thread. If you happen to catch this thread again... You mentioned that the Metrum and Border Patrol DACs "enable the benefits of the SM (Synchro-Mesh)". Can you elaborate on that? Is there something different about Non-Oversampling DACs that make them work better with your Synchro-Mesh unit?
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