If you have a large room, and you understand....it will be very hard to outplay a pair of Apogees.
Dave |
Hi Guys (esp. Zane),
I didn't mean to suggest that Apogees are not fantastic speakers -- they most certainly are! However, with the various systems I've tried, I've found the German Physiks to be superior to my ear.
Prior to the German Physiks, I used the full-boat modified Crosby Quads with Rel Stadium subwoofer. The German Phsyiks are the only speaker that I have found which can match my Crosby Quads in intimacy and transparency while offering great dynamics and ultrasonics.
Note that I mostly listen to jazz, folk, country, blues and rock.
Cheers and happy hi-fi! |
to usound your absolutly right,the only placement issue is the mid low frequency below 200hz where the woofers take over.One of the challenges in driving the Loreleys is the driving the the bass section having to power four 12in.woofers from 180hz down is not easy,and requires very powerful amps.On the other hand were the speakers excell is in the total sound uniformity to mid and low frequency going down all the way to below 20Hz.
In addition I beleive the less crossovers the better off you are.Also an electronic X-over gives better ballance between the speakers handling the different frequencies.
When performing a spectral time analysis on my system except for the excellent linearity across the frequency range,the lack of ringing after impulse inputs where very significant,ringing will lead to distortion and fuzzy imaging.I do not know whether the absence of any ringing is the speakers or the combination of amps and speakers. |
Ramy that's what I expected, and part of what makes them so intriguing. My previous thoughts had to do with room considerations. I would imagine that room reflections might become more of an issue. Perhaps because the DDD driver handles all the frequencies, except for the bass, one may move it out further into the room without worry about driver integration at the listening position, to compensate for room reflections? |
to unsound,omni speakers such as the german physics do not have sweet spots sound and imaging is good independent of location. Used to live for thirty years with different electro static speakers very placement dependent.The same apply to ribbon speakers or most front firing speakers. |
I know you guys realize ribbon speakers are still going very strong. Infact, alot of dynamic speaker manufactures incorporate ribbons. Why? Light, airy, transparent sound. I challenge any dynamic speaker owner to put on Michael Hedges "Taproot" Or just about any female vocal (Trinity Sessions Cowboy Junkies). Then go to your buddies house who has ribbons, play the same music. You tell me what sounds more real? Oh, by the way. I have in my system now Joseph Audio RM 25 Speakers. There is a reason you almost never see these on the used market. |
If bi-polar speakers are harder to set up than foward firing speakers, I suspect that omni-directional speakers would be even harder to set up, not impossible, just more difficult. I can imagine that the efforts would be well rewarded. |
this is addresed to sirspeedy.I have auditioned the loreleys in manhattan,the set up was extremly bad,primarily his cross over was set poorly ,poor amps,and like you said poor room.I know all of this because I purchased these speakers,and had the cross over adjusted for linearity and for my room.I am primarily classical music listener,with limited Jazz,this speaker can reproduce music with,imaging, speed ,clarity,and dynamics second to none. |
I have to agree with Zane. I don't own the apogees but have owned several very highly regarded full range dynamic speakers.I have yet to hear a speaker that impressed me as much as the apogee.The transient response is nothing short of remarkable.I always kicked my ass I didn't buy that pair. |
I've heard the Loreley at a fellow in Manhattan.Yes,they played loud,but had an oversized sound stage(possibly room related)and not so great high frequency extension.Great for Kodo drums.Not so great for other types of music.
That being said,they play LOUD,and no strain.I can easily see these lasting a few lifetimes.
Not up to the finest I have heard,unless you have many "RAP MUSIC" parties.Just an opinion.
Best! |
Rgs92,
Somebody has!!! Check the "Apogee Speaker Users Website"
There are installers that use "Graz" ribbons and are available for most models. He has also developed a new model. Graz is located in Austaila, but there are installers within the US and Europe |
Yeah, the App's really were miracle speakers. Someone should revive them full throttle. Even crappy old CDs from the mid-80s sounded great. I still remember listening to Santana, Woodstock, and my trusty old Time-Life 60s & 70s CDs and feeling like I entered the time tunnel. Old familiar studio recordings sounded like they were recorded live in concert. All this for around $3000. |
Rgs92. Only by being drunk, stupid,and playing Hendrix real loud. Next thing i new i was watching Jimmy setting his guitar on fire. No problem though. Ordered a new ribbon tweeter, install was easy, and they still jam today! Have never had any buzzing issues. I wish every audiophile had a chance to hear the ribbon! |
Zane, did you ever have problems with your Apogees (Stage-based, I see)? I loved mine but one bass ribbon started buzzing and 2 repair attempts by Apogee at the time failed. I would seriously consider getting them again if I could be sure they were reliable. Just unmatched vocals and a sense of unparalleled "liveness". (Not too great soundstage or many details but that's an acceptable sacrifice for me.) Thanks. (Sorry to stow away on the thread.) |
Ramy, I am really envious of your system, I'd sure like to hear that set up. |
Being an Apogee owner for two decades, who has heard and owned several dynamic speakers. I feel confident in saying that the ribbon is hard to beat. The Apogee is still a remarkable, & unique speaker! I really don't think i can ever part with mine. |
A quick update,I have had warping of the DDD in my legato and borderland done by the cleaning help.However that does NOT impact the sound and is easy to straighten out.However I recently had stainless steel covers installed over the DDD making them totally secure,one can also has the option of cloth covers.They are easy to install and can be obtained from german physics in germany.The Loreley speakers come with covers.I have played these speakers at very high volume they are instructible.I happen to have JM utopia speakers they are definitly very inferior to the german physics speakers.Properly powered these speakers are unbeatable for classical music audiophiles. |
I have owned a pair of full range German Physiks speakers for about five years with no problems whatsoever (they are a two-channel version of the MovieMaxx, but with the current version of the DDD which goes to 21 KHz and the subwoofer module under the DDD module). These speakers are extraordinarily well built and not prone to damage at all so far as I can see -- I have been using them in my living room for the entire five or so years and they haven't given me a minute's problem. I should point out that we have no kids at home, so perhaps there's less opportunity for damage at the hands of careless or decibel-starved teenagers...
I haven't heard all speakers in this price range ($25 - $30k), but I haven't found a comparable full-range speaker which can approach them in transparency and dynamics, including Apogee, Wilson, JM Labs, Sound Lab and some others. I recommend them with no reservation whatsoever. |
olive, Sell the apogees quickly and cheap...to me |
I have a five way german physics system with loreley main borderland center and legato rears.They are by far superior to the apogee.No comparison at all.As far as warping damage,yes they are easy to warp but has absolutly no impact on sound.In the Loreley the cones are not susceptible to warping that only apply to the speakers such as legato or borderland were the cone are exposed.I have been an audiophile for the last four decades owened and listened to a great number of high end systems,I listen to primarily classical music.To my ears the Loreley speakers are the most satisfying.The first set of speakers in which I could truly enjoy the sound of symphonic music.My system can be seen in the virtual system on audiogon. |
I owned a pair of German Physiks Unlimited. The DDD driver proved to be most unreliable. They were prone to warping. I've seen other pairs of German Physiks at dealer showrooms and have seen the same problems occur. They were excellent sounding however. |
