Hrrrumpf! Such blatent attempts to jocularity at the expense of my exalted person may necessitate live audio seminars offered by my A-Capella-sized cousins from some lessthan-savory corners of North America. . . to assist with fixin' the respect thing real good and real friendly like. . . ya capisce!
I just thought of something tonight. When I first listened to Alex's system, I told Alex that I got unusually high from it, and that it lasted about an hour. At home, I was listening to analog only, and my system didn't affect me that way. I asked Alex what I could do to my system to try to duplicate that. He said to buy one of his cd players. Well, the other night I was listening to Ori's(Oritek Audio)modded Zhalou DAC(which is excellent), and I remarked that my APL 3910 sounded more euphonic than the Zhalou. I could be wrong, but I think that might be what separates Alex's players from other players.
Drubin, Mmakshak's Denon 3910 is the all-solid state entry level APL player with the original PCM1796 Burr-Brown DACs. It has re-designed output stage with MOSFET output buffers. So, no AKM DACs, no Upsampler, no Tubes. It really sounds very good at its price point, IMO. On a scale from 1 to 10, if this Denon is 1, the AKM tubed version is 5-6 and the NWO-2.5 is at least 12. :-)
Apologies to all. I misread "euphonic" as "euphoric". And my point was that I think the APL products are accurate and neutral while being musically convincing and, yes, euphonic.
Audiosu 12-25-06 My sincere suggestion to you: Upgrade to NWO-2.5 first before spending money in amplifier and speakers. Use NWO, which is a recognized SOTA source, as base to see if further upgrading is necessary and appropriate.
Chungted, I have had the NWO2.5 for a couple of months now and I would agree 200% with your comment. Buy the best source first and then work back towards the speakers. Only then can you know for sure how up to snuff the rest of your gear really is. For example, my Dynaudio Temptation speakers are now at a completely different level of performance with the NWO2.5 as souce.
I would go one step further though and say get Alex's unshielded minimalistic silver core cables because they allow the full performance of the NWO2.5 to be communicated downstream through the amp and speakers. Once you have a source as magnificent as this you should want to extract every ounce of its performance and his cables do this. However, if your source (or amp or pre-amp) have deficiencies than his cables are probably not the right move as they will highlight the brightness, edginess, grain, etc. like a spotlight.
Good point Drubin...in reality every piece of the chain is important to an optimal result.
The way I interpreted Chungted point, which was the basis for my response, was given an existing system (without regard for how it was put together) one is best advised to optimize from the source back to the speakers. Why? Because so many audiophiles switch out speakers, or cables or amps, or pre-amps, in search of better sound, when in fact, it is their source that is the weaker link in the chain.
Anyway, to each their own, there are lots of ways to nirvana in this hobby/obsession.
The inverse is just as true. Moreso if you ask me.
This may be true but you will have to spend substantial amount of money on downstream components while still not sure if they will truly reveal the source capabilities. The NWO-2.5 is also capable of simplifying things by proving a preamp redundant, especially with the upcoming Wi-Fi and Analog input options. So I think it would be a better idea building up on a solid base instead of starting from the roof.
Alex I tried to compare NWO-2.5 with or without passing through my pre-amplifier (tubed, famous brand). My pre-amp just restricted performance of NWO on transparency and dynamics. It is very sad that I have to retire my pre-amp from the system.
"Buy the best source first and then work back towards the speakers. Only then can you know for sure how up to snuff the rest of your gear really is."
I agree with Drubin & Alex as well. Garbage in, garbage out. Each improvement to my modded CDP & upgrade to Vinyl in my system has revealed unanticipated refinement in existing downstream components & quieted the upgrade itch for a time. After you're done with the front end, you'll ID for certain what needs attention elsewhere.
Also, it's better to compare CDPs to the constant yardstick of great vinyl rather than to a another CDP. Having recently substantially upgraded both my vinyl rig and my modded SCD-1, I'm at the point that the best RBCD and hi-end vinyl is very close to a toss-up. If as reported the NWO2.5 RBCD is edging out great vinyl then it's one hot ticket. I'm curious which hi-end TT's and phono stages have been equalled by NWO2.5 RBCD.
Guidocorona Comparing the sound with or without my pre-amplifier from NWO-2.5, the former is slightly less transparent and has weaker impact. I will not use strong words as "detrimental to overall sound". The same pre was a perfect match with my CEC TL-0 transport + Audio Synthesis Discrete DAC. I have other system in my Canada home, using the same pre for Oracle transport + Audio Synthesis DAC. They also produce excellent sound for me. In both latter cases, with-pre sounds better than without. (Audio Synthesis has volume control. I let the volume of the pre stay at maximum and addjust the volume on DAC.) Please allow me not mentioning the brand name of my pre. It is in fact a very good one (so I own two sets). It uses 6350 NOS tubes for gain stage. It probably is just not matching NWO. I will try the OTL mono blocks of the same brand in future.
I must say it is frustrating when a poster compares equiptment but does not disclose the actual name of the equiptment used in the comparison. It kinda makes mentioning the comparison useless to everybody besides the poster.
I do thussly stand correct Chungted. . . I really meant to say. . . what is that unmentionable pre that is slightly less transparent and has weaker impact than pure NWO-2.5? Per implication with OTL amps, if your pre were Atmasphere, having heard the reasonably competent Atmasphere and the world-class NWO-2.5 in separate rooms at the Denver AudioFest, I am not surprised of you finding the sound of your system with the interpolated pre to be just slightly wanting.
Audiosu, I'm kind-of in the same boat as you. While I certainly believe in the source first, my speakers are from 1980, and they have one woofer that is just glued in, and inconsistent fasteners for the rest of the woofers and tweeters. It is this last thing that bothers me the most. You have to admit that we have an avenue to upgrade our players. It is exciting-which is how I would describe APL's players! I'de also like to mention Earflappin's suggestion about Alex's interconnects. I don't completely understand it, but on Alex's system, it made my very fine interconnects(which are used on my APL 3910) sound uneven. Alex's interconnects opened up a whole area in the highs that my interconnect overlooked.
Guidocorona, if it's 6350 tubes perhaps he's talking Joule, not Atma (6SN7). Not to quibble but the Atma MP-1 is far better than "reasonably competent."
There are very nice sounding preamps available, no doubt about it. I also have my own preamp design which has been sitting on the shelf unused for 2 years now.
Except for switching the sources and eventual phono stage built in, the preamp main function is impedance matching and attenuation (volume control). A preamp would be a benefit for any audio system in most cases.
The NWO-2.5 has enough output power to drive any cable or amplifier. It can even drive headphones directly hooked to its output. It also has unique remote controlled H-Attenuator with 0.5db step built in which takes care of the volume control. The H-Attenuator is made in a way that is absolutely transparent.
This said; as good as a preamp can be, the NWO-2.5 simply does not need it nor does it benefit from it, any preamp.
I am currently using MIT oracle V2.1 interconnects on my APL 3910. I did not jave a chance to compare it with Alex's silver interconnects. I am happy with the V2.1 but interested in Alex's cable.
Audiosu, the output stage inside the Denon is a version of my own preamp output stage. :-) This one is Single Ended.
The NWO-2.5 tube stage is differential (balanced) which, among other benefits, results in significantly increased output power and much lower output impedance, so it is considerably better than the one in the APL 3910. :-)
When it comes to NWO-2.5 and a preamp is like having two of your favorite SOTA preamps hooked up in series. Of course, one preamp would sound better than two in series making one of them redundant. :-)
I owned MIT Oracle v1.1 cables. I would encourage you to try Alex's silver minimalist cables as they are excellent. Just start with one, e.g. the CD player to pre-amp interconnect.
Forgive my brain-lock here. I have my APL 3910 going into a preamp, also. If one were to connect the 3910 directly, how would one still use his analog? Maybe I need to contact the Rockport gentleman, since he has the APL NWO 2.5, and likes the direct connection, I believe. I do know that he will find a way to still use his Rockport.
Mmakshak, your entry level APL 3910 does not have volume control built in so you can not go direct to the amps.
The NWO-2.5 has the volume built-in but, until now, it did not offer analog inputs. This was a problem for customers with vinyl setups. We now have Analog input option which allows for connection of any analog source including a phono preamp.
Since there are audiophiles who have the phonostage built in their preamps, we have decided to develop MC cartridge input for the NWO-2.5 as well. When ready, one would not need a phono preamp anymore. :-)
The "Rockport gentleman" does not have APL player for now, he has EMM Labs Signature. So far he did not have the chance to audition NWO-2.5 in his system.
Thanks guys for the advice. Let me point out that Alex's CDr of his previous Gyrodec/Denon 103R(?) versus Rockport/Zanden killed it. Now, I was unfamiliar with both recordings, but it seemed that the Rockport CDr had almost a line drawn across the soundstage, about halfway up. Now, this is not a critism of the Rockport set-up. It just shows what Alex is capable of. I believe he also had a motor-controller for the belt drive, that he designed. I hope to get some input on my analog(circa 1992 Linn,etc.) when I visit Alex soon. If this sounds like a kiss-up of Alex, I guess it is! Alex does something to music that escapes most people, I believe. I just have to mention that I have been exposed to Meitner and Oritek Audio(a huge bargain here), also.
AHHH, I finally received my NWO today, FedEx driver said I owed him a tip cause of the weight. 82lbs, WOW, what a gorgeous, well made, machine. I hooked it up cold, as soon as I got home, and walla, music, wonderful, harmonically rich, extended, detailed, tight deep bass, articulate midbass, glorious midrange, and treble to die for. Amazing, being cold, right out of the case. This is before any burn in, Man oh man, I am gonna have some fun here, fine tuning my system. I have been collecting power cords for the past couple months in anticipation of receiving my NWO.
Dominus Stealth 5000 VD revelation Ridgestreet latest(forget name) suggestions, welcome Brent, could ya lend me a Kubala?
My initial setup with the NWO was plugged into my conditioner, Alex told me to go straight to my dedicated line, cause, I was missing the TRUE sound of the player. I was real skeptical at first, but, I decided to give it a try. Man, what a difference, I will say this, I am really smiling right now, AND, I should have my custom speakers here next week, hopefully. I need to go listen to some music, cause it's been a long time since I have enjoyed my system so much. Alex, THANKS.
Congrats on your new toy. I know you've been waiting a while for it and we'll be interested to hear your reaction as it breaks in. Looks like I will also be getting one in the not too distant future.
Just put a VD Genesis PC on my 3910 and it made a tremendous positive difference, even more so than I had expected, replacing an Epiphany X. Rick S. told me it is quite a bit better than my Revelation PC and he was right - its at another level. Very impressive in my system and definitely worth a try, IMHO.
Congrats 711. I see you are going to try Purist Dominus PC. You may want to try also its newest top-flight sibling--the Anniversary. It works extremely well with stock X-01 Limited. G.
Congrats! I am certain it will make some beautiful music.
I will second Guido's comment on the Purist Anniversary Power cord on the X-01. I used the Anniversary PC on the X-01LE and found the cord to be a great match. FYI - they do take more burn in than the Dominus if I recall correctly.
The Denons, as well as many other high-end digital products, has a switching mode power supply inside, while the NWO and many others have linear power supply.
The reason why I am bringing this up is because there is a huge difference between what power cord and power conditioner/regenerator will be used together with digital audio component having switching mode or linear power supply. This said; what works best with Denon might not be best with NWO.
Congrats 711 - you lucky dog! Regarding powercords, I am using a Harmonix Studio Master on my APL3910 which I really like. I have also heard good things about top of the line Kubala Sosna and Pranawire powercords.
Alex, you made me curious! what types of PCs work best with linear PSs and what types with switching PSs? By the way, on my own X-01 Ltd I am using a Shunyata Helix Anaconda Alpha, rather than Purist Anniversary.
Guido, usually shielded power cords in combination with power conditioners or re-generators work very well with units utilizing switching power supplies.
Your X-01 Ltd has a dual R-Core linear power supply which, in my experience, works best without any power conditioning or re-generators (the X-01 and UX-1 have a built in EMI filter) and the use of un-shielded and, preferably, un-twisted power cords made of pure Silver.
As far as the Shunyata PC goes, may be Earflappin can give his summary since he has been using these extensively.
Hey, when are you going to visit? Any time soon? :-)
Alex, your explanation corroborates my empirical findings. I found the Shunyata Anaconda Helix Alpha much preferable to my ears to its shielded VX sibling on X-01. See: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1146623467&openusid&zzGuidocorona&4&5#Guidocorona Still no silver though. . . and complexly braided to boot.
I did try to fly to the Bay area all of last year, but all opps fizzled. Closest I will get in the next month will be L.A. . . . but I am working on some new opportunities that may bring me to the SF area before long. Stay tuned Alex! G.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
