my second advice: Tape now some stones or crystals around the electrical cable that come from your central electrical panel....Better sound will come and this will reinforce perhaps what is only a bias, but you will go on with experiment to confirm or infirm this results +bias...Best regards
My advice is: tape some stones(pink quartz or agate or some jasper etc) on the central electrical panel of your house, after that your first bias will change for a new bias, and time +experiment will infirm or confirm some of your bias...It is my experience and humble opinion, not"mumbo jumbo" for sure... Best regards to all
How do you know in the first place that raindance affirmation is not the result of confirmation bias? And how do you decide yourself which of us ,Raindance and me are without bias? Are you King Salomon ?
My opinion is just that, my opinion, but here i described my experiment, and convey just that, my experience, but without any experimentation with stones and crystals, why someone would dare to pass judgment like "mumbo Jumbo" about someone else experience without trying before mouthing...For sure i have bias, it is the reason i experiment in the first place to confirm or infirm my bias...But bias without experience is only prejudice...Bias confirmed many times begin to ressemble to an informed opinion but only that, an informed opinion...A kind of educated bias...
I read my reply and perhaps i am a bit rude, i apologize if so...best regards
"There is likely just one useful crystal in your system and that is the clock for the DAC...... The rest is all mumbo jumbo. Spend your money on room treatments and decent gear."
Yup.
maghister - how do you know your experience is not the result of confirmation bias??
Raindance you are certainly a seer or a medium.... you know better than me and my hears what is effective or not in my system...Congratulations....
Geoff kait you have more experience than me with a possible explanations about crystals... I am no scientist , my remarks are only my uninformed opinions...Thanks for your reply....
There is likely just one useful crystal in your system and that is the clock for the DAC...... The rest is all mumbo jumbo. Spend your money on room treatments and decent gear.
Another piece of the evidence that crystals are primarily anti resonance devices is that ideal locations for crystals around the room can be found using a SPL meter and an appropriate test tone such as the one found on the XLO Test CD. What you’ll find is that there are many peaks in the room including out in the 3D space of the room where the sound pressure is much higher than the average sound pressure in the room. It’s these sound pressure peaks where the crystals - mine work best for this application since they’re designed with the audiophile in mind and have very wide bandwidth - improve the sound.
So, you have to ask yourself, what’s going on here? Well, it’s not such a big mystery. It’s like the tiny little bowl resonators I alluded to, the threads here a few months back get into all the gory details of how the tiny bowls work including vibration control and RFI/EMI absorption. In any case, I think it’s clear that crystals usually operate in the room by absorbing mechanical (acoustic) vibration and reducing comb filter effects. Placing crystals or groups of crystals at first reflection points, room corners especially on the floor, at points on the wall where there are high sound pressures like on the back wall between the speakers, and on glass windows and sliding doors, among other things, is a very effective way to treat room anomalies. Even hanging them out in the space of the room from the ceiling to address the peaks out in the room. And as I mentioned before even when crystals are placed on or inside wall outlets, in proximity to electron tubes, inside breaker boxes, on top of electronic components, on stereo cartridges, on top of CD players, where effects might appear related to RFI/EMI, it’s actually vibration that is the issue.
And if you have any tube traps or Helmholtz resonators around, or tiny little bowls, crystals will improve their performance.
Now, there may be some other, more mysterious things going on - I never say never, but crystals in audio applications, even on audio components and speakers and cable connectors, appear to be resonance and vibration control related. And if anyone has any ideas about any other mechanism other than vibration absorption and RFI/EMI absorption by all means lay it on me, I’m all ears.
But my experiment with crystals comme from some boys, Geoff Kait, another one Walker, and finally after acoustic revive products, Jack Bybee, who claims that some crystals suspended on a wall can transform the soundstage of the speakers... I dont have this kind of money and cannot afford his product, then i decide to experiment with my own possibilities, the conclusion is , yes , some crystals can transform the acoustic of a room... In my case with my own very rough experimentation,there is some subtle but clearly there is an EFFECT, i use only some copper bowl plate (like Walker product) with fluorite crystals and shungite, the effect was there... I dont say that this experiment of mine equal Bybee more sophisticate product, or Walker products, i dont know and probably not, but at the end perhaps there is something there...I think so now...in conclusion crystals dont act only by damping effect...This is more complex phenomenon...
Finally! The suspense was killing me. The OP steps up to the plate, taps the plate a few times with his bat, gets set, swings ...and ...misses! Whoosh! The breeze feels good.
I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it looks like this thread is destined to become a repeat of the tiny little bowl thread. Note to self: Sometimes it’s better to remain an observer and refrain from getting involved in one’s own trollie mollie OP.
Thank you very much for all the details. Your thoroughness and patience have been the keys to your success.
You stated, "... you must experiment one pieces at a time, because all rooms and all systems are different ..." This has also been my experience.
You stated, "... for example using some metal bowls on the walls at ear level with some crystals in their center ..." I will be experimenting with this method soon.
You also talked about "controlling vibrations and negative subsequent resonance". I use sand boxes under and above components for this purpose with good results.
You stated, " ... Crystals damping the mechanical vibrations ? i dont buy that ..." Neither do I. My experiments -- like yours that have been ongoing over a period of years -- do not support this conclusion.
As you rightly point out, patience and trial and error are the keys to success here. You have clearly shown that even modest systems can be transformed if you have the necessary patience to persist with the lengthy trial and error process.
You stated, "The final results kills my urge to change and buy, so-call upgraditis ..." This has also been my experience. Using devices to dampen mechanical vibrations and using various resonators and crystals to create resonance have enabled my system to produce a quality of sound I had no idea was possible to attain when I began this project.
My products each employ various crystals of various sizes and types. The reason I use multiple crystal types per product is because all crystal types have their own "bandwidth" if you will, so using multiple crystals in the same location/application spreads out the effective bandwidth. The "bandwidth of operation" for a crystal is a function of the specific atomic structure of the crystal, a symmetrical 3D structure. So agate might work very well in one place but not so well in another place. And because crystals are resonators they can hurt the sound in some places. Trying to match a certain single crystal to an audio application is a little too much trial and error for me. 😀
No later than today,i discover that agate works less well on top of my dac than ocean jasper and Kambaba jasper ? I dont think that only damping property of the crystal for mechanical vibrations can explain that...but i cannot contradict that if you say so.... I am not a scientist...
Another remark, i speak of EMI,because i know that all piece of gear interact together, and with external fields also, by a means i cannot understand crystals and some stones modify that global field and this modify the acoustic field in the end...I cannot explain that and nobody i know of...Alas!
I think that there is no explanation that i know of, and your argument are sound to me, but in my experience blutak does not act negatively in all cases,and by my experiment the effect of crystals is not explained by the concept of vibration control, it is more complex than that and i have no scientific possibility to understand that...All crystals act in a synergetic manner together, compensating their effects in a positive or negative way, and no crystals act the same exactly, ocean jasper is not red jasper, and kambaba jasper act more like ocean jasper , way better than red jasper in my system and they act very well indeed...But the possibility to detect these subtle changes depend of your particular system, antecedent modifications etc...
Walker ideas to use metal bowl on walls, with crystal at the center of the bowls works, i try it myself with my owns means,how do you explain that this transform the acoustic of a room ? by damping the mechanical vibrations ? i dont buy that... Best regards to you, i must say that i have read your past posts at another forum by the way and that inspire me to experiment a great deal thank you...
I realize the idea of RFI/EMI absorption or dissipation using crystals has been bandied around a lot but actually I find that - in almost almost all cases - the method of operation is vibration control. It doesn’t make sense that crystals react one way or the other to RFI/EMI since RF is moving at light speed and is all around the room simultaneously, so the idea that a crystal or crystals can influence a room full of RFI/EMI is a little far fetched. Crystals are not magnets for RFI/EMI. Even when crystals are used in proximity to electron tubes or wall outlets or the circuit breaker box the method of operation is most likely vibration control, not RFI/EMI absorption, although I can see why some might think so.
This mechanism of crystals to control vibration can be easily demonstrated by placing my crystals on top of tube traps and other similar devices, allowing those devices to operate more efficiently. Also on glass windows and sliding glass doors. I always find its best not to constrain or suppress the natural operation of crystals as resonantors using Blu tack or similar materials rather let the crystals touch whatever you place them on unencumbered and free to resonate.
I must add something tough, controlling vibrations and negative subsequent resonance seems to my ears very important, in all links there is some negative vibrations, and damping or cancelling them is vital, i use different materials with load, sorbothane,cork, bamboo plate, granite plate etc...the other important task was cancelling EMI with stones and crystals...I dont know any convincing explanation for that, but with stones and crystals that works... Best regards
I had try many, but the most effective materials coupling implicate, pink quartz, tourmaline red green and black chunks, madagascar banded agate polished chunks varied in size, shungite ordinary peebles or elite,fluorite crystals,amethysts crystals or peebles, small lava beads, many other species also, but i speak now only of the most useful one and you must experiment one pieces at a time, because all rooms and all systems are different... I place them often with blutaks in ALL links, going from the electrical central panels first ,to the speakers and headphones, with all links in between treated one at a each time... Some placement are incredible, for example using some metal bowls on the walls at ear level with some crystals in their center to treat the radiating room....I dont have much money, i use low cost solutions... The final results kills my urge to change and buy,so-call upgraditis...I now know why people are not satisfied by their sometimes already good listening system, they lack something they cannot pin-point...My system is not the best, only a simple one with optimal results,with now first and foremost ethereal imaging,and naturalness of musical timbre... It takes me some years of reading here and there, buying very good vintage at small price,after that in the last months, crystals and stones maximalized all their potentials...I am in a small room in nearfield listening but the room treatment with low cost materials(different density foam panels and pieces) was very efficient and imperative, i improvise that one thing at a time with my hearing tools(ears) only...Crystals and stones after that transform the soundstage imaging of my headphones and speakers and of the room...I am no more envious of out of reach audiophile costly products, and i listen to my music...i wish you the best...
Yes i use stones and crytals in my system and room... In the beginning i have read about some people who sell that, Walker, Bybee, Geoff Kait, acoustic revive etc... I dont had money to buy that and i dont had initial trust or experience with crystals...It is like astrology, i dont had faith in that, like professional pseudo scientist, or like people who pay for their future,by the way because i am curious with no faith, nor negative faith neither positive one, i read approx. one hundred books about astrology occidental and indian one,in the last 40 years, to make my OWN opinion,but this is another story...Back to crystals and stones, i make the same study and experiment myself, and amazingly that works for me, i treat my room with that,and all my system with great benefits... It is not perfect, very rudimentary but it work on a unexpected level... I had try dozens of stones and crystals looking for the good one...I only say to people, inform yourself, experiment, dont buy anything to anyone before experimenting, for the last year that was great fun, and my one thousand dollars system all in all give me so great joys that i am no more envious of the ten thousand dollars system of others, mine is perhaps less efficient, but music when it is there is music, and i have it now at a relatively low cost, (Mission cyrus 181 speakers,beresford bushmaster dac, Sansui au-7700, with cheap room treatment of my own+stones and crystals implemented by me) ... Best regards to all...
postscriptum: By the way invoking science is in no way a good excuse to repudiate personal experimentation;and all scientific explanation by the sellers about the use of crystals and stones are probably bogus,but waiting a new sound scientific theory of acoustic before experimenting is ridiculous to say the least....
I thought you liked group hugs. Have you lost your sense of humor? By the way, speaking of group hugs, how are pebble sales this week? Maybe we can help you move some stock.
Sounds like you need to take a rest. After you have are up and around again we look forward to more of your amazing insights. Thank goodness the cat has not got your tongue. Lol.
I see that geoffkait denies being difficult -- but he does not deny being snarky. Thank goodness he did not fall off a turnip truck. It must have been some other truck. Lol.
Free tip for crystal buffs. Crystals work better when they've been "clarified." Use demagnetizer on them, wash them in cold water and/or place then in the bright sun for a couple hours.
I tried some quartz crystals in various parts of my stereo....found they did nothing, until I put them in my electrical panel...then I heard a very real improvement.
Crystals. Ooooooo! High prices of audio gear. Ooooooo! Just wait’ll we get to something that really is controversial. Heads will explode. Mossbacks and knuckledraggers, this means you! 😀
If you people who were with the scientists who developed .ruby lasers or quartz watches, lcd televisions or the quatz ocilator in your laptop or the crystal radios i made as a kid or the other uses of crystals and minerals we would be a lot worse off as a society.dont critisize what you dont understand.
One imagines that the urine idea would match quite well with the toilet paper rolls idea over on the cable elevators thread. I had a sneaking suspicion it wouldn't be too long before this thread went into the toilet.
Many salutes, dissolved substances, are in a medium familiar to us all. In that medium they frequently spontaneously, or after some induction process, form crystals such as calcium phosphate, calcium oxalate, hippuric acid, ammonium bifurcate, and many others. I would suggest that medium be put to good use and applied extensively and regularly to all audio equipment to get the crystalline improvement effect The medium is urine. BG BBG
Crystals can absolutely help you enjoy your system more if used properly. I placed some on my wife's wrist and all negative anything throughout the entire house disappeared for an extended period. Unfortunately, one does need to add to the crystal collection periodically to keep the effect going.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
