Anyone hear a Croft Integrated Amp?

Back on the Croft Phono Integrated, where this thread started, it is an amp I find very involving, almost as good as the LFD and much lower price. I sell in my shop (Gene Rubin Audio) speakers from Harbeth, Spendor, Rega, Stirling, and Fyne. The Croft amp works well with all of these. I dig the retro look and the dual volume pots become second nature in use. USA prices have come down on the Croft due to new distribution.

Thank you. Happy New Year to you all also.  Seems like my 7R sounds best when I bump up dynamics with tubes such as the NOS Tesla’s and Siemens. Keep it more romantic in the pre. I tried it both ways. 

fjn04, wish I could have tried other cartridges with my 25R like a Decca but the 20X2L/P75/SUP-200 always sounded better. Want to say I like the Primaluna Dialogue Premium just as well as the 25R and I get a remote. Less noise, greater bandwidth/dynamics and more resolution. Just wish I had a mute switch on the unit. 

As long as you're having fun (-:  Happy New Year!  My Amperex Holland tubes must be run in now. I'm thinking about returning to the stock JJ's, just to come full circle. noromance- you have me thinking about those Shuguangs Treasures. 

You got it noromance.  Primaluna into the 7R and I’m liking it. Have to wire up the speakers out of phase since I’m using a non Croft pre. Like the Mullards in the Primaluna and Siemens in the 7R.  

Sorry, I only drink craft Guatemalan or Mexican blend coffee. Well, I had all the equipment and thought I would try different combos over the holidays. 

Yes- This thread needs to switch to SANKA, 

Dude, you’re all over the place!
So basically, are you saying you dumped the Croft 25R preamp for the Primaluna pre and a DV-P75 phono?

Rogue Stereo 100 amp and Campion integrated are gone and now I’m back to the Primaluna Dialogue Premium Pre/Croft 7R Amp. Just sublime with the Auditorium 23 speakers cables and Triode Wire Labs “Spirit” interconnect. I’m done. Do have some fancy tube in them though. Even tried out a Audio Research VSI-60. Why is it so good. Tube rectification?  

Well. On second thought, now I’m liking the little old Sonneteer Campion. Killer. Don’t listen to me. Ha. 

I auditioned the integrated -- 45 watts -- I think, and the preamp. Neither worked in my system but I know that they have a following and Croft has a good value proposition.

I hooked my Primaluna Dialogue Premium preamp to my Croft 7R. I like it. A lot! Harbeth Compact 7s seem to respond great to hybrid tube/mosfet amps as others have said. Wasn’t expecting to like it better then my Rogue Stereo 100. New additions are a Niagara power conditioner, Triode Wire Labs interconnects and power cables. 

I use to have a VPI Classic 1, ZU DL103, A23 SUT step up. Used it with the Leben phono. Was a pretty killer setup.  Really alive and organic. Wish I still had to compare to my SL-1200, SME M2-9, 20X2L, DV SUP-200 SUT, DV P75 Mk. 3. 

The phono integrated truly responds to tube rolling. I was going to go high output cart, and avoid step up.... But now that P3's are dialed in, Vicoustic DC2 diffusion installed, and Amperex (Philips) mini-watt installed in Croft, I'm staying with Charisma (Denon) 103. It just sounds too darned good to mess with. I've been back and forth, and no doubt there are some good high output/MM carts, but again, I'm staying with the 103. I'm thinking the little A23 step-up, which I've owned and enjoyed, although never with Denon, or Bob's Sky 20.

I haven’t even experimented with the tubes in the 25R regulation sockets. Stock JJs still in place and that’s maybe a dumb move. Think I’ll swap them out tonight. 

@noromance thank you!

Maybe I shouldn’t give up on the Croft quite yet and should buy those Shuguangs and a few more Telefunkens. I had a pair of the Shuguang’s but they are long gone with the Luxman tube integrated. Problem is I’m liking the Rogue Stereo 100 so much with the Croft 25R compared to the 7R. It’s making me want to try a Primaluna or a Rogue preamplifier. Rogue preamps scare me a little because I think Tube regulated power supplies and point to point wiring have real merit. Also it seems Herb Reichart really likes the Rogue Stereo 100 and Primaluna Premium combo.

@zek4u
I am using the phono preamp with a pair of new Shuguang Treasure 12AX7LS in phono (dist. Grant Fidelity) and three Telefunkens -one in the line stage and two in the regulator.
The Shuggys need about 20 hours to break in but are excellent. Better than my Teles.

@noromance 

What are you using for your one line stage tube and your two phono tube sockets?  Still thinking about getting some NOS Telefunkens for the phono sockets.  

I just want to simplify this system, and not have to buy an SUT. Not only that, but this will be first foray in to MM’s, after 30 years in analog. It’s just something I need to do....I’ve heard the Dynavector 75/ III and I totally agree...very impressive. So realistically I have this integrated (Croft) with phono, and it’s very nice for my taste, and for the money. But I don’t believe in giant slayers, and I doubt it compete’s with stand alone phono stages costing up near $2K. So as many here have made the point of... Go MC, only if you have a very capable phono stage.

Wrote this long post and Audiogon of course refreshed the page with all its JavaScript and I lost it all. Urghhhhh

So if I had to write a summary of what i just wrote. Thought Rogue headphone amp and Primare amp was better then my 25R/7R but I went of my mind for a bit.  Moved NOS Tesla into the 7R. Everybody talks about the Tesla’s in the phono tube sockets but Jeeze, the Tesla’s blow away fhe NOS GE 5751s at least with Harbeth Compact 7s.  Wow wow wow. BUT....  I quickly wanted music while doing the switcheroo and just hooked up my P75 Mk. 3 to the 25r. Just shocked. It’s completely world class and I’ve heard the best!. Heck, I just got back from RMAF. Okay. Back to it.  I’m sorry. I can’t get the 25Rs phono section to do what I’m hearing. I pulled the NOS Hammond labeled Amperex from Holland and out the JJs back in. It’s better. But with P75 and my SUP-200 SUT and 20X2L, I’m hearing more transparency, more refinement and it’s seems more timeberly correct. Oh using a NOS Telefunken in my line stage socket on the 25R. It made my Hugo 2 and Mirus really shine. I’ll have to get some more Tesla’s and Telefunkens to try in the phono sockets. I knew my vinyl rig was world class thanks to Herb Reichert but now I finally see what he was saying.  Just amazing!!! Now I’m asking myself why I just bought the old 72/150/Hicap to try. This beats the Supernait 2 and so many other amps I’ve tried.  It’s about synergy.  I even tried a Leben CS600!  Well I’m sure that would have been amazing with some Devores or Proacs.

Oh, the Audio Note AN-S2 was more organic but the SUP-200 is more refined and has higher resolution as it should at its price. Stacey Kent never sound better.

Are you using a Step Device in to your Micro 25 with the Low Output Hana? Nice setup.... My second system: WT Amadeus/ Charisma Denon 103 cart in to A23 Homage> Croft Phono Integrated amp> Harbeth P3’s.
Note: I now borrow the Homage Step Up from main setup, and had been considering a lower priced Step Up... I plan to switch gears, and go with an MM cartridge. Considering Audio Note IQ3, MFSL Master Tracker, or perhaps one of the Audio Technica’s. I also listen in a small room, around 11 X 12, but big opening to rear of listener. Running stock JJ’s, and considering RFT (ECC83) 12AX 7’s....

I have a Croft Micro 25 pre & 7 power amp driving Harbeth P3ESR speakers and it sounds spectacular. Its near field listening so that is a more forgiving listening scenario than a living room set up. I have top of the line NOS phillips Holland 12ax7 tubes in at the moment. 
Arcam irDac is my DAC, mostly listening to Tidal from my MacbookPro via Amarra. 
Very happy, i have owned a pair of LS50 Kefs previously and i know the Croft LS50’s would be a great combo.
i like the crofts so much i might replace my Prima Luna prolog 7 mono blocks ih my main system with the croft 7R Mono blocks. Ill keep my Cary SLP 98P fully modded F1 preamp with Lundahl MC transformer. Rest of my system is - VPI classic 2/Hana SL/ Arcam irdac 2/Kimber AC/ Nordost Blue heaven RCA/Nordost red dawn speaker cable/Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grand SE speakers/x2 REL T7 subs, x2 Townshand super tweeters. 
I live in California, lets get more Croft gesr in tbe USA. 

@zek4u One 12AX7 is a regulator for the driver stage. There’s also a neon voltage reference tube underneath it.
Yeah, it should come with an upgrade option with NOS Telefunkens. I run Treasure12AX7 LS and find them better than the Teles (after break-in of about 20 hours)
http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/store/products/shuguang-custom-12ax7-lx-special-edition-pair-low-noi...

@noromance my plan has been the Odyssey Candela but though I haven’t heard it, I’m still pondering the Croft. Not sure how well they will synergize though.

Put some better tubes in the 25R and 7R and now I’m completely blown away! What a dummy I was leaving those JJs in place. Put a NOS Telefunken in the line stage. Wow! Amperex from Holland (red labeled Hammond) tubes in the phono stage. Orange labeled Hammond RCA tubes in the 7R. Trying to figure out if the two 12AX7s in the 7R are driver tubes or if one is a driver tube and one is for power regulation. Going to try some NOS Teslas in the phono stage sockets soon.
Selling the SN2.  I can deal with tubes :)

@gochurchgo There is one for sale at the giveaway price of $650 here.

I’ve been considering the Micro25 with my Odyssey Khartago. On paper it seems like it should work.

@zek4u Good to hear. It really is a great preamp.

@noromance  Comparing the new Dynavector P75 IV phono amp (set to MM) to the Croft 25R just used as a MM phono amp via tape out. Highly modded SL-1200/20X2L/Audionote AN-S2 SUT.  Phono pre running to SN2 on to P3ESRs. Two REL S/2 subs in stereo. 

Well guess what, I’m kind of blown away by the Croft 25R just as a phono pre. Overall, entire system is about perfect now. 

@autre  Sorry, I’ve only had the Croft seperates.  First round 25RLS and 7RS. I now have a 25R and 7R and I’m astounded.  With a high end source it is just KILLER! I use mine with Harbeth P3ESRs and might have had the first Croft combo with the Kef LS50s or maybe it was Naim.  I preferred the Harbeths. More tonally accurate and wasn’t boomy. If i wouldn’t have compared it the P3s, I would have been happy forever with the LS50s. 

@zek4u My 25R is dedicated to phono only. It was always verboten back in the day to hang a cable on the tape out unless necessary. You might try it with/without late at night to see if it affects SQ.

I can use the tape outs with the phono input on the 25R. Woohooo

Magic is back with 25R/7R and P3ESR speakers. Went full circle. World class and I think I just have stock tubes in this set.

Anyone know if I can use the tape outs while using the built-in phono input on a Croft 25R pre? Seems like I read you couldn’t on the less expensive phono integrated.  

I bought a Croft Phono Integrated last year and have been generally happy with it - mostly playing Vinyl. It's loud enough and has a nice broad tone - neither too bassey nor too trebley - a bit like baby bear's porridge!

Croft's mimimilism really is at play with this amp as the first thing I noticed was I couldn't connect a line-out from it whilst using the phono-amp ... because the phono amp doesn't have a voltage follower (buffer). The result was the line-out sucked the voltage out of the signal and everything went quiet in the speakers.

I had a voltage-follower (valve) stage fitted by a very capable man here in the UK and that solved that problem. However there are one or two other things to bear in mind about this amp.

Firstly, Glenn Croft has stripped this amp back to the bare essentials, so it has just 4 amplification stages; phono, pre-amp, pre-amp follower (single mosfet in class A) and power stage (mosfet pair in class AB).

A typical integrated amp contains 7 to 9 stages. Having recently started building my own integrated amp incorporating valves and mosfets, I can see and hear the significance of the decisions Glenn has made to simplify the Phono Integrated. Most of these were reflected in Sterophile's review in 2013: https://www.stereophile.com/content/croft-acoustics-phono-integrated-integrated-amplifier

- Total harmonic distortion is a little high - though this isn't always a bad thing, but it is a reflection of a very simple pre-amp that doesn't incorporate any negative feedback. The preamp goes straight into the AB mosfet stage i.e. there is no separate gain-driver after the pre-amp.

- The RIAA curve on the phono-amp has notable treble roll-off. Again, not a bad thing, but the Croft phono-stage doesn't sound as detailed as the DIY amp I have built which has a more 'conventional' RIAA profile.

I'm not saying the RIAA curve is related to the differences in detail; I'm not an expert in these matters. However I have found the experience of building something myself enormously insightful and I would recommend it - as I would the Croft Phono Integrated.

I have listened to the phono integrated, a really nice sounding little integrated. The stock JJ tubes Glenn sends with the amp are very good, but as others say, one can tube roll and get different sonic characteristics. But mainly, you just have a very good, musical amp in the Croft.

I own the Micro 25 preamp and Series 7 amps, just love them. Simple, very spartan looks, and wonderful sonics. That the phono stages sound so good too in the Crofts can just be an added bonus, even if it is only MM. 

I think some may dismiss the Crofts on looks alone, or maybe even due to the Stereophool review damning the measurements, but who cares, they sound great. Give them a listen, well worth the time! 

Tim

@nordicnorm I bought a pair of the LS Shuguangs from Grant and love them in my 25R. Thanks for the head's-up.

I use the Croft 7R power amp and it sounds great. Better than my Audio Research VS60. But not nearly as great as my 300b SET monoblocks built to a WE91 schematic. 

A note on @smrex13 comment. I agree but must add that you can alter the sound of the amp by changing the tubes. The stock are warm and a little rolled off. Swap in cheap Electro Harmonix will add detail if not a tiny bit brash. Gold Lions will remove that harshness. Telefunkens will bring the amp to a new level. Also look at 5157 tubes. Consider Croft separates too as an upgrade route.

I run my Croft phono integrated in to a pr of Harbeth P3 esr’s. Currently I’m running a Sony PS 1 with Furutech PC in to this system for bedroom tunes. It’s very enjoyable. I have tried this setup in my main room downstairs with my Amadeus, EMT cart and SUT. This sounded pretty darned great, and showed me the Croft and Harbeths can truly sing.

I had a Croft Phono Integrated, and sort of wish I had kept it.  I had it paired with the KEF LS50s, and it was a very nice combo.  I can't imagine you can do better for that budget range.  However, keep in mind that the Croft is only 45 wpc into 8 ohms and 50 wpc into 4 ohms, so it's not going to provide extremely high volume with the KEFs.  If you're using a turntable, I don't think there's anything in the under 2k price range that's going to get you close to the Croft's quality, considering that it's got a tubed preamp, SS power section, and a high quality tubed phono stage.  You only need a power cord, phono cable, and speaker cables.  

If you're coming from the Peachtree, I would expect that you find the Croft to be much warmer, more organic and dimensional, and overall more relaxing.  You may find that you lose some detail and have a lower ultimate volume level.  

Just my two cents,Scott  

@nordicnorm I have a Decca Super Gold too. Glenn Croft told me he'd choose it all day every day over any MC. I have had John Wright upgrade it with a paratrace stylus. No issues with tracking. Again, a great amp for phono.

Croft makes very high quality audio gear. I have a Croft RIAA phono preamp in which I’m running Shuguang Custom 12AX7 LS Super Tube Special Edition tubes. The Shuguangs are fast becoming my favourite new production 12AX7 tubes (Psvane 12AX7-TII ’s were my previous favourites) .

I chose Croft because I have a London Decca Super Gold cartridge which is the same cartridge that Glenn Croft uses to voice his preamp.

The Croft RIAA performs head and shoulders above my previous phono stage. Although, since the Doge 8 is both a line and phono stage preamp, a direct comparison may not be completely fair.

I have had Croft Micro phone preamps since 1987 and love them. Currently using a 25R with Telefunkens and 5751 and it’s sublime. I’ve not heard the integrated but heard nothing but praise. I have read a review that suggests some higher order distortion than some amps but it makes music. I’d recommend it as a phono integrated if using a turntable. Roll out the JJ tubes for much improved performance over stock.

  I purchased a used Croft Micro 25 preamp last year based on reviews & forums, and could not be happier with it.  I would have zero regrets even had I paid full retail price.
  However I never initiate conversations about it or the brand, because, I'm pretty certain I would be just as pleased with almost any other highly transparent, handmade tube preamp in my system.
  Without denying anything akg said above--I'd suggest searching some of the UK forums for more information on the LS50+Croft pairing.

P.S. Best I ever heard the LS50s was with a PrimaLuna integrated.

Thank you!  That was an incredibly insightful and helpful post. I especially appreciate the insight of potential difficulties of resale if the unit is not to my liking. Cheers!

I’ve auditioned CROFT separates (preamp and power amp) at a dealer with the following observations:
Its a bespoke British kit that has its own quirks, strengths and warts,

(1) Speaker matching was comparatively very acute. In my audition, LIVING VOICE Avatar OBX-R2 speakers bested NEATs, FOCAL and all the other contenders on-site. CROFT appeared to be of a higher sensitivity to a proper speaker match.

(2) Cables had a noticeable effect on the synergy alchemy. Curiously again, a higher sensitivity to cables was apparent, with LFD besting the bevy of cable choices. But because of (1) above, it was impossible to emphatically assign a separate distinct factor herein with any great assurance.

(3) The CROFT kit sounded great with a high-end digital source at the top of the system. It was my observation that the CROFT kit is very revealing and will expose any source shortcomings or weak spots graphically.

MY TAKE

it can be lovely indeed, it’s a bespoke high-end kit but it is not one that I rank ahead of a better known and more easily seen alternative such as LFD. The latter is every bit the peer to CROFT and IMO a "better" performer via both performance and flexibility in many system builds.

add to this that

-- the CROFT is an esoteric limited appeal and limited popularity brand here
-- but still $$$$ buy on this side of the pond

AND

-- with the potential high component matching sensitivity issues highlighted above,

(1) it’s a high-risk brand choice that I would never buy blind nor lend any credence to mag reviews accordingly because of these real risks:

(2) your exit choices later, if it does not float your boat, will likely be very limited (and expensive) because of its relative popularity and brand obscurity in North America ;

(3) Having heard it, (and it was lovely but in THAT bespoke system) I would only consider it in an evaluation predicated upstream to its source AND downstream to its speaker mates.

In simpler words, it is a unit to be a contender AFTER I was comfortable with the rest of my gear. It is not one that I would parse out separately as a low-risk keeper first building block .....