Guys, I have tried to search and figure this out, because I know this topic has been well-covered. But I am still wandering in the dark, so plz forgive my redundant questions....
First, here's my current rig,: I built a Lenco table 15 yrs ago with a JMW 10 arm/London Super Gold that I run into a phono pre that I built from a pretty high end kit (can't see the name, have no idea what it is now!) thru a VTL tube IT-85 integrated amp and then thru some SF Electa Amator II, supported by a sub I built. So pretty mid-fi setup, but it really works for me. Sounds great, to my ears.
The Covid thing has me home (no golf in Los Angeles!), listening to music more.
Would love to stream something that approaches the vinyl sound quality with a music service, but being retired, budget is more a concern now...
I just subscribed to TIDAL with its premium level (MQA) that I was running straight from my iphone 6 to the VTL. Meh. Then my daughter ran same stuff through her iphone 11 and, hey, that sounded better. So, clearly, I am in need of a streaming DAC.
I know MQA gets mixed reviews. I have no way really to test this or to go listen to stuff. Everything is shut down here. So here's the criteria that matters most to me:
A great UI app because now streaming is like going to the Smithsonian. There's a lot to organize.
Great sound. (whatever that means!)
One box. Cables get expensive & messy.
I'd like to keep it under $2K. I'd really like to keep it under $1K, but that may be wishful thinking. I mean, is Bluesound Node 2 up to it? I am sure it would beat my daughters iphone 11, but ... what are reasonable streamers/DACS? Where's the killer solution that isn't $10K? I know it's out there....
I am not so far into TIDAL that I can't change. My system is in the same room as my router, so I can run an ethernet cable to the DAC. As I have looked at all of this, it has occurred to me to get an older, much higher quality used DAC that I can somehow mesh with TIDAL (or another service with high quality streaming) and forget the MQA. But this has to somehow hook into my internet directly and be able to be run by a remote UI. So now my head is spinning.
It’s just sweet. With a $75 blue ray player that’s 5? yrs old. So it’s gotta be better and this is plenty good. The one place it struggles with dense music with a lot going on, gets kinda mushed together but that probably takes serious money to fix I fear plus great source material.
I am always mystified by music reproduction. Forget the fact I am listening to music recorded 50 yrs ago that sounds great today. But more than that, the technology that records, translates a musical instrument & music onto a medium (analog or digital, both amazing), then recovers it and plays all the nuanced sound - different sounds, at the same moment - through speakers. And then with good system, begins to locate the various instruments in space. I know there is well-understood science about this, but still, what I am hearing is magic to me.
Ok, now I can stream from phone to Ygg. I learned the hard way in that A/B tests are the path to endless tinkering. Some people like that and I once did. But now, there's just one question: do I like it? Yep. It's really nice. I never learned how to describe sound, so I won't try.
Well, a qualified 'yep.' Playing from the phone is a pain in the butt. No remote, and the phone is lost for other uses while music plays unless I sit 2 feet from amp. And I am not getting all that Qobuz delivers. So definitely, another player is still on the horizon.
So, a question. How much more money does it take to really be better than a raspberry pi based signature or pi2aes ($400 ish)?
I vote for the Blusound Node 2i, especially if all you want is streaming from Qobuz and Tidal, and Internet Radio. The box provides MQA decoding as well as 24-bit / 96 Khz hi-rez recordings. Outputs are both analog (internal DAC) or SPDIF digital. It SOUNDS great - as good as any other digital box I have used.
These black (or white) boxes are simple to set-up and much simpler to use than Roon or J River. The GUI on your desktop computer or your iPhone is easy to use and offers almost as much of the capability of Roon, but at a much smaller price. I am using mine with a Meridian Direct DAC and have no complaints - it works great and no H/W/S/W monkey business to worry about.
Streaming servers are where the biggest libraries are, and in fact the day is coming where having a big self-contained server that you rip a bazillion CD's into is already outdated. Qobuz will always have more albums than you can ever buy or download, and they are always available for playback on your beck and call. IMHO, the best digital music component you can buy !!
I just ordered Rasberry Pi based PI2AES. I am right at my $2k budget. Yggdrasil GS plus this streamer. This will sound better, be more user friendly than my phone and I am not unhappy with what I am hearing already. My takeaway: DAC is a big deal. Big deal.
Thanks to all who took the time to help me figure this out. Great stuff and I really appreciate it.
In case this was not mentioned before as an option: you could look at a used Auralic Altair (1st gen). It will stream all the usual services and file formats, it comes with one of the better free music management softwares (Lightning DS) and even lets you browse through 10,000-plus internet radios. And it can be found around the $1200 mark.
"Adding an expensive DAC to the Bluesound is kind of like putting a $1,000 cartridge on a $500 turntable. Sure, it’ll sound better than the stock cart it came with, but you won’t come close to what that $1,000 cartridge is capable of, because the turntable isn’t up to the task."
I am curious on the basis of this comment. Is the digital output of the Node 2i so poor? I have heard/read that older streamers like Sonos Connect etc etc can have a jittery digital output but the Node 2i is a very recent unit. I would understand they cheap out on the built in DAC, but the digital section too?
There are cost effective digital stream cleaners/reclockers out there, well reputed, from Wyred4Sound and Ifi - but supposedly those are really useful for older/known poor digital sources like mid fi CD players, Macbooks, Sonos Connects, the like...
It's based on my experience trying outboard DACs and comparing to a better quality streamer/DAC (the TEAC NT-505). The Node 2i is a nice product, and adding an external DAC can make it sound better. Some say much better. My experience was that it was a little better. The NT-505 was much better.
I still have a Node 2 in my bedroom system and am using the DAC in my Sony TA-ZH1ES instead of the Node 2's DAC. It sounds really good. I enjoy it and am not disappointed with the sound quality.
However, I wanted to get the most out of my main system and when I compared sources - my turntable, CD player, and the Node 2 with an Auralic Vega DAC, the Node 2/Vega sound quality did not hold up to the rest of the sources in my system. When I replaced the Node 2/Vega with the TEAC NT-505 it took streaming sound quality to another level.
I am not an engineer and can't tell you technical reasons why, but if it makes sense that everything in your system matters, then how can you expect a budget device like the Node 2i to provide a solid foundation that you can build on?
For me, it was similar to my experience when I tried adding a bunch of "upgrades" and a nice cartridge to a budget turntable. It did make improvements in sound quality, but at the end of the day, a better constructed turntable with better isolation, a better tonearm, and motor sounded much better, even with a cheap cartridge than the tricked out budget table did with all the upgrades.
My travels through into the streaming realm during this Covid stay at home period has been fun. I have a pretty nice ’old school’ hifi system -- Oracle Delphi TT, Ayre PX5E, Modwright tube output Marantz CDP, CJ Premier 16LS2, ARC VT100-2 amp, Quad ESL, Proac and Harbeth speakers w Rel subs. Took the time, with some help from the forums and a couple friends to get good streamed music working in it.
Transports/streamers tried - Sonos Connect (w and w/out Wyred4Sound clock mods), Volumio Primo, Project Streambox S2 Ultra, Node 2i
1. Moved quickly through highest Spotify to Tidal and Qobuz services, the SQ difference is not subtle. More subtle is SQ difference between Tidal MQA and Qobuz hi res. Have not tried Amazon HD. Suspect this whale will eat them all, esp. T and Q. Tidal is subscale on MQA and its benefits are unclear, Quboz has an incomplete library, poor customer service, sometimes suspect billing practices.
2. Volumio user interface and their Rasb Pi connection interface (I use wifi) just do not get along with me. I am not a super duper computer/network expert but I am not incompetent either. I hated how they interacted and connected - or should I say were difficult to connect. Tried both and returned for refund with frustration (Volumio Primo and Project Streambox). Sonos and BluOs much better imo. Simple and basic at some level, but how they connected and work on phone/tablet is solid. Roon is still out there, haven’t tried, dislike idea of paying $10 a month for Roon, then pay for music streaming too...
3. Blue Node 2i is an interesting piece. Definitely ideal for beginners... does it all with one box, very easy to hook up and use. But it is ironic it purports to provide full MQA sound, but through a rather poor onboard DAC. I was unimpressed with the sound -- SQ was clearly superior on redbook resolution stream through a better DAC like a Chord or RME. I am still trying to hear full MQA through a real and ’serious’ DAC, so bought the Topping MQA D90, but this thing only does full MQA through its USB input (not coax/bnc or optical)... are you kidding me??? So Topping going to be returned too (to be fair, it is a good sounding DAC without MQA, but not better than Chord or RME).
4. If you have a history with Sonos, I would say the modded Sonos units with cleaned up clock output is actually excellent for SQ as well as for interface/hookup. Very impressed with SQ of the Wyred 4 Sound reclocker modded Sonos units. I think it sounds even a touch better than the Node 2i digital stream out ... I think...
5. I agree with a poster above saying that streaming/sources are still evolving quite a bit... may be unwise to spend big $ on streaming front end/transport and have it obsoleted before long... but that DAC technology is stabilizing and maturing. I have been very very impressed with the Chord and RME DACs at the $1000-1500 level. Really great sound, tactile, great PRAT yet warm fullsome whole sounding. I suspect, thought I haven't had any of the big dollar DACs in my system, that $1000 or so may be the point of diminishing returns for DAC quality.
Hope my experience helps others starting out. It is fun and the idea of surfing through these almost infinite music libraries is wonderful. Overall SQ I am getting is very very close to CD/analog sources.
Are there any legitimate competitors to the Linn Klimax DS renew lines at their respective price points? Typically Linn Klimax beats equivalent vintage Naim in their TOTL offering and about the same as dCS in their TOTL offering (similar in quality, different in presentation).
I simply don’t under why anyone would bother with anything else.
Ok, at last... I got the Pi2aes this week. All excited, I built it, and after a few fits and starts, it looked all fine. Except no sound. 2 days later, it was finally just a total reboot, erase the microSD and start all over, and ... poof, it plays.
And sounds great. Nice to control play from my chair!!! And sounds great. I think I am done. For now.
I have narrowed my choices for a new system to the NAD M-10 and B&W 703 speakers. Have a good price with free shipping. Deal is dependent on getting an offer for my present 1992 804 matrix speakers and BK amp and preamp from one of two retailer buyers. After reading this thread it seems the discussion is about the less expensive NAD node 2i. What about the sound quality of the M-10? Would I still need the external DAC? Save me some money if I have made a bad choice. I have never streamed but want to make it a daily practice, probably with a new Ipad. As an old codger, my music choices range from 1930 to the 1980's and I am not a tech guy; simplicity is my need. Thanks.
The Node 2i is from Bluesound, the budget line from NAD. It is a streamer/DAC, no integrated amp. I think the streamer and DAC in the M10 are probably better than the Node 2i.
If you want to start shopping again, you could look for an integrated to go with the Node 2i, but I have no suggestions for you in that area.
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