Amp recommendation and setup advice please


Hello,

I love music and I adore quality sound - I cannot listen to music on ordinary speakers/devices.

I have been trying to do my research on sound systems/speakers/amps etc.. and learn/understand the whole shebang, but I'm not that much of a tech head. 

I want to buy the Klipsch RF-7 II tower speakers (I think they are passive, hence requiring an amp). 

I want them for both my new TV and also the vinyl/turntable setup I am going for, which is as follows:

Turntable - ProJect Debut Carbon Premium with Ortofon 2M RED (cartridge)
Phono (pre-amp) - ProJect Phono Box DS
Speakers - as above
Subwoofer - thinking either Klipsch R-12SW or R112SW
Amp - ??

I have a few questions:

1. Am I on the right tracks for having all the essentials?
2. Can someone recommend a good amp to power my speakers and sub please, and does the sub need powering or does it have it's own amp? 
3. Do I need a DAC for TV and connection to laptop? If so can you recommend a good one please? I was thinking of Audioengine D1 Premium 24 bit DAC Interface Connector.
4. Please suggest any alternative products if any of the stuff I mentioned are no good or don't fit together that well.
5. How would I set all of this up? Do I need anything else?
6. Do I need more speakers? I'm worried that the sub may be too much bass and drown out the tower speakers. 

I apologise for my lack of knowledge - I've just signed up here because I read that I could get advice and guidance from enthusiasts and experts. I know that my questions and post may frustrate some of you as I may have made some rookie mistakes, and perhaps this type of post has been done a 100 or so times but wasn't sure how to get answers/help. 

Many kind thanks in advance!

Mo
laher
You might be able to use an audio output from the TV. The NFB has one set of RCA analog stereo inputs (IN5). You might have to get a special cable.  It would not be as good as digital input, because you would be using the DAC in the TV, but it would probably work.

Essentially, a preamp is used for several things:

- As a way to switch between multiple sound sources (i.e. CD player, tape, etc.)

- Be able to provide a way to adjust volume

- Contains a circuit that has enough current to drive certain amps (sometimes digital sources do not have enough current in the analog output circuits).

You missed one- the line stage is also used to reduce or eliminate the effects of the interconnect cable. This is probably the least understood function of the line stage.
Ralph, re: your comment about eliminating or minimizing the effect of interconnect, could you please elaborate? I own an ARC Ref6 and ARC Ref150se and I keep getting advice from certain dealers that I should upgrade my IC between the two. I will say this; I have four XLR IC's at my disposal at unless it's in my head, they do sound different! Does this mean my Ref6 is not good at it's job? My question is posed with nothing but earnest sincerity.
@auxinput I have everything up and running now but I’m not entirely convinced of the sounds. Perhaps I have set it all up incorrectly or maybe I need to do something with the settings of the TV or Satellite?

I feel like I need a subwoofer as the bass isn’t enough, and I also feel like there isn’t enough clarity in the highs (possibly the mids). 

Any thoughts/recommendations please? 
You should be able to run video from satellite box to the TV via HDMI, and audio from the satellite box to the DAC via coax, then DAC to the powered speakers. Is this the way you are set up? 

You have volume control on the DAC and the speakers. Try setting the DAC at fixed output and controlling volume on the speaker. 

Do the powered speakers have tone controls? Might play with these.

Achieve the sonics you desire from the system prior to considering augmenting the bass via use of a subwoofer. 


Those Neumann KH310A you mentioned earlier are in a totally different league than those other speakers you mentioned. They're also $4500 a pair. You wouldn't need an amp though. There are 6 of them in the Neumanns. I own a pair, and they sound wonderful. They actually look much nicer in person than pictures would lead you to believe. They sound huge for such a small speaker, and go really low. Check the specs.

If you used a 1/8" to RCA convertor cable to connect the TV to the Audio-GD DAC, you could be losing sound quality because of poor cable as well as poor audio from the TV.  If this is the only way you can do this, then there's nothing much you can do.

I always advise using digital COAX or toslink cable to connect to the DAC.

As far as bass, the Yamaha studio monitors are pretty good on the bass, as long as your source is good (see first paragraph).  If you feel you are missing bass, it is most likely an acoustic problem with the room.  I have been there.  Room probably requires bass traps to reduce the standing waves.

If you have digital cable between satellite and DAC, you must go into the satellite menu settings and make sure that "Dolby Digital" is turned off or that you have set the sound to "stereo" mode. 

What RCA cables are you using between the DAC and the Yamaha studio monitors?

If you really wanted a sub, you could get one. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SVS-SB-2000-Sub-Woofer-Black-Ash-NEW/182943070158?hash=item2a9841b7ce:g:jzcAAOSwcj5ZP7PW

Not a recommendation, but something you can look at.  There's many others that are both cheaper and more expensive.

your comment about eliminating or minimizing the effect of interconnect, could you please elaborate? I own an ARC Ref6 and ARC Ref150se and I keep getting advice from certain dealers that I should upgrade my IC between the two. I will say this; I have four XLR IC's at my disposal at unless it's in my head, they do sound different! Does this mean my Ref6 is not good at it's job? My question is posed with nothing but earnest sincerity.
@fsonicsmith  The balanced line system has a set of standards which are in part there to eliminate noise and also to reduce cable interactions. This is why in the recording studio it unusual to see really expensive cables, simply because the differences are inaudible.

If the equipment does not support the balanced standard, then cable differences can be heard. Audio Research to the best of my knowledge has never supported the standard (also known as Audio Engineering Society file 48) but that is actually pretty common in high end audio.

The aspects that make the cable more audible are:
1) output impedance- if this is high, more cable artifacts (IOW the character of the cable) can be heard.
2) In the balanced standard, ground is ignored and is only used for shielding. In this way no ground currents pass through the shield of the cable. What this means is that the signal occurs between pin 2 and 3 of the XLR connection and floats with respect to ground.

In an ARC preamp and a number of others, the inverted and non-inverted signals do have their output with respect to ground  and not to each other. This causes the cable to become an audible portion of the overall system sound. One advantage of this is that either output can be used to drive an RCA connection just by hooking up the RCA connector. What this means is that such a setup is really just two single ended connections that are simply out of phase with each other, which is not actually how balanced line is supposed to work- its signal does have the two aspects out of phase with each other, but its not a pair of single-ended outputs. I hope I have explained this in a way that is easy to understand.

Sorry for my slow response- I only just now found your question.
@auxinput apologies for the delayed response, it was my sisters wedding weekend. 

I have the Audioquest Redriver interconnects (XLR) from Yamaha monitors to DAC, and Lifatec Toslink digital cable from DAC to Satellite. I also tried the digital cable into the TV and it’s the same as when plugged into the Satellite. 

I changed the sound settings on the Satellite to stereo, and I have the DAC gain set to low. There are 4 gain settings: low, full, high, and super high. I read that a low gain with higher volume will result in a more neutral sound. Is this true? I’m not sure which gain setting I should be using. 

I have played music via Bluetooth on the Satellite (from my iPhone) and the sound is what I expected - the bass is impressive considering there’s no subwoofer. However when watching TV and movies there’s almost no bass. 

Perhaps a subwoofer would make a difference and pick up the 20-80hz range? Also, I was thinking about adding in a centre speaker too. Would this be a good idea? 

Will the DAC be able to power everything if I added the sub and centre speaker? And does the DAC have the availability to output to these?

I was reading that speaker position is vital. My room is 7.5m by 3.5m (roughly), and the TV/speakers are against the long wall. I have the tweeters at ear level when seated, very close to the wall, angled in to the couch creating a triangle effect. The speakers are about 2.5m apart from each other. Any reccomendarions for improving the positioning?

the sub you mentioned is one I short listed but stretching the budget a little bit, especially if I am to buy a centre speaker. I was also looking at the Klipsch R-112SW. Is this a good one? Also, is it better to have two average subs or one really good one?
Ignore the centre speaker parts, I realised that I'm talking garbage. I have a stereo setup and centre speaker is for surround setups so it doesn't make sense. I also don't think I have the available ports on my preamp/DAC after adding a sub. 

The gain setting on the DAC just dictates how loud the output will be.  I would say to use Low or High unless you feel that the sound does not get loud enough.  You do have a volume adjustment on the back of the Yamaha, so I think any gain setting will work.

Select the Fast / Slow volume control characteristics.
        H: Fast.  64 steps range.  
        L: Slow. 100 steps range.
        F: (Full ) High gain mode. 100 steps range. (For the low sensitivity headphone like the HE-6 or the source had low output voltage level)
        S: (Super)High gain mode. 64 steps range. (For the low sensitivity headphone like the HE-6 or the source had low output voltage level)

----------------

Relating to the clarity of the sound, make sure that the setting switches on the back of the Yamaha are all set to "FLAT" or "0".  The switches are not always in the middle position for FLAT/0.  If this is the case, you can try doing a "+2" setting on the MID EQ or the HIGH TRIM.  This may increase the clarity of the mids / highs for you.  Play around and see what you like the best.  Alternatively, you could try Audioquest interconnects that have the silver-plated connectors (such as Mackenzie or Sydney).  Silver plated will give faster mids/highs, but may be leaner on the bass.  In my opinion, gold plated connectors sound more natural, but it's all personal preference.

Movie/television soundtracks are mastered with a 5.1 system in mind.  Unfortunately, you might have to live with the sound if you want to keep the DAC.  Also, the Audio-GD DAC will not support a center channel.  Way back in the beginning of this thread, I tried recommending doing an HT processor or receiver, but it seems our discussion went towards a 2-channel DAC.  Sorry about that. 

If you really want a center channel, you could just get an HT receiver to do the dolby digital / dts decoding for center speaker and use different cable for Yamaha (maybe a RCA -to -XLR adapter cable).  Then use the Audio-GD DAC for your own high end system. 

---------------

If you feel okay with the general sound quality and just want more low bass, the subwoofer idea is good.  The Klipsch R-112SW appears to be a good choice.  Yes, having two subs is better than one.  This allows you to place them in different locations and works better to handle room nodes.  Generally, a room will have bass NULLS, which are areas / frequencies where the bass waveforms cancel each other out from wall reflections.  Having two subs will help reduce these cancellations and give you better bass.  The Klipsch have RCA inputs, so you just need RCA cables and use the standard RCA outputs of the DAC.  You can use both the RCA and XLR outputs at the same time.  The XLR will go to the Yamahas.  The RCA will go to the Klipsch sub(s).  Then just set the crossover on the subwoofer to something like 40-50hz and adjust the gain on the subwoofer to your preference for bass.

As far as room, sometimes we are at the mercy of furniture and other restrictions.  Generally, I think the best would be to put the left/right speakers on the short wall for best sound, but other things may prevent this.  If you get subs, it is definitely best to try to put them into the corners to boost the bass.  Having speakers set in the middle of the long wall is definitely going to produce weak bass (in my experience).

I have the gain on the DAC on low, the level on the Yamaha set to +4dB (half way), and all the presets to zero/flat. I may up the mids and highs to see how that sounds but I think it might not be necessary. 

I’m happy with the sound when I play music, but I guess it makes sense that the sound isn’t as good with the movies/TV if they are mastered to a 5.1 surround sound.

Maybe a HT processor or AVR would have been a good idea considering this was supposed to be a TV setup, but I’m happy sticking with the preamp/DAC. Apologies for my lack of knowledge and experience in all of this, but I do think the conversations took a turn for the best so thank you for your guidance. After all, it’s just a TV set up for my father and he is happy. I think the addition of a sub will complete the setup in my opinion (but this will be more for me than for my father lol). 

I’ll probably get the Audioquest Sydney (for example) at some point just to hear the difference between gold and silver plated interconnects, not because I think I need it. 

My DAC won’t support two subs right? I will try to purchase the Klipsch but it’s proving difficult finding a dealer in the U.K.

I could buy the Audioquest Big Sur for connecting the sub to the DAC right (RCA to RCA)? The thing that worries me is that the picture of the Big Sur looks as if the left and right connector split isn’t long enough to plug into the ports on the DAC. Does this make sense to you? I might not be explaining myself very well here.

This may be a silly question, but how worried should I be about knock offs and replicas when it comes to buying audio equipment off eBay or Amazon for example?

Unfortunately it’s not possible to put the speakers on the short walls. Any tips for making the most out of the long wall. I read one theory about putting them as close to the wall as possible, and if you can it’s best to mount them into the wall so that they are flush. The other theory was about putting them a foot or two away from the wall. I want to avoid or minimise the nulls in my room.

There are other subwoofers you can get.  Look at these on the ebay UK site:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/b/Speakers-Subwoofers/14990?Configuration=Single%2520Subwoofer&rt=nc&_sop=3&_udhi=500

There is a Revel B120.  Also, several BK subs so that you could get two if you wanted.  Or just get one to start and put it as close to the corner as you can get.  If you get two subs, use Left RCA for one sub and Right RCA for the second sub.  If you only get one sub, use both left/right RCA into the same sub.

You can play with the Yamaha's position.  I think generally, you need a little bit of space away from the wall (at least 1-2 feet) because the bass ports are on the back side of the speakers.  But I think the best bet would be to put a subwoofer in each corner. Then set them at about 80hz (the Yamaha's may not play that low when in the middle of the wall).

I can understand your concern on the "split" of the Audioquest cable.  It is definitely not that wide, and the left/right RCA outputs on the Audio-GD are spaced far apart.  I would look at the Belden 1695A Coax cable for subwoofer.  These come in single cables, so you can get two of these (one for each corner sub).

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/subwoofer/index.htm

The 1695A uses a solid-core 18awg copper conductor.  In my opinion, this would be an excellent cable for transferring bass frequencies.  Smaller awg conductors do not transfer bass as well.  In my testing, 20awg seems to be the best overall compromise - small enough for high frequency detail, but still large enough for good bass.  When going to smaller 22awg conductors, I get much leaner bass and too much bright highs.  The Audioquest interconnects typically use 21awg conductors.

-------

There are definitely counterfeit cables on ebay and stuff.  The Kimber Cable speaker wire is very easy to counterfeit because you cannot tell the difference - it's just braided wire.  There are other Furutech connector counterfeits.  Lots of counterfeit junk on ebay from China - stuff that is "too good to be true".  However, buying something like used Audioquest on ebay or elsewhere is usually pretty good.  I have not seen counterfeit "equipment".

Thanks again for input and recommendations. 

I have purchased 2 Belden 1695A cables (15 feet each) and also purchased the Klipsch R-112SW (managed to find a UK dealer who had stock). 

I'll start with one sub for now and see how I get on and may look to introduce a second one down the line but I think this should be good enough for now. 

I'll keep you posted once I receive everything and hook it all up. 

Thanks again auxinput!



Would it be worth buying a decent HDMI cable? I've read conflicting articles about high end HDMI cables vs basic ones. 

The Satellite is connected to the TV via HDMI, and the TV is connected to the DAC via digital cable (because of Netflix being played through the TV app). I tried the digital cable straight into the Satellite and it seems to give the same sound as when plugged into the TV.

But with the digital cable plugged into the TV, the input is going from the Satellite through the HDMI to the TV, and then through the digital cable to the DAC... hence my question about upgrading the HDMI cable.

If it is worth spending a bit more on a decent HDMI, is this one any good:

https://www.audiosanctuary.co.uk/audioquest-pearl-hdmi-high-speed-v1.4.html

Then there's the next one up:

https://www.audiosanctuary.co.uk/audioquest-chocolate-hdmi-v1.4.html

Thanks!

There is one area where silver definitely makes a positive impact and that is with digital cables (including COAX and HDMI). Silver is a much better conductor than copper and will charge/discharge much faster. This is critical when dealing with digital square waveform signals that are extremely high frequency (like megahertz). For normal audio waveforms, I prefer pure copper.

The other aspect of digital cables is length. It is said that you should really use 1.5 meter or 4.5 feet as minimum length to reduce the amount of signal reflection back to the originating transceiver. Signal reflections can cause distortions in the waveform and cause inaccuracies. I have used short cables and this can be heard as a slight smearing of the audio. I always use 2 meter / 6 foot digital cables just to be sure (toslink doesn’t count here because it’s light).

This is the cable I use:

http://audiosensibility.com/blog/products-2/digital-cables-occ-copper-and-occ-silver/#!/Neotech-NEHH-4200-HDMI-1-4-Cable/p/17895256/category=4059160

I like it because it’s not extremely expensive and he cryogenically treats the cable (which solidifies the conductors just a little bit more and enables more high frequency transmission). The Audioquest Chocolate is also a good choice as it uses silver-plated conductors as well.  I might think the Neotech has a slight advantage because Audio Sensibility does the cryo treatment.

I have wondered about upgrading to something better like Wire World Starlight 7 or Silver Starlight 7, but other things have higher priority on my list and I don’t feel that my Neotech HDMI cable is a weak link yet.

You may or may not notice any difference in your system with upgraded HDMI cable. However, you might notice a slight improvement in video clarity.

Thanks auxinput.

I think I’ll get the AQ Chocolate as they sell in the U.K. so I will save on international delivery charges.

But it’s good to know about the Neotech for when I need a decent HDMI for myself one day.
Wanted to give you an update. 

The Klipsch R-112SW is awesome!! Bass is deep, rich, and clean. It’s genuienly amongst the best lows I’ve heard, I’m very happy!

Movies now have that theatre effect that I was looking for, and together with the Yamaha’s the setup seems to be complete. 

I have the gain on the Klipsch at half and the low pass at around 120hz. 

What does the phase switch do? I have two settings: 0 and 180 and it looks like each number has a degrees symbol next to it. It’s currently on zero because I didn’t touch it since taking it out of the box. 
Also, when reading up on speaker position and those nulls you spoke of, I came across acoustic panels and bass traps.

Do you/have you used these before? Would you recommend that I explore this addition or is it overkill?

Are there any other ways to enhance my sound?

The phase switch can help with blending in bass with the main speakers.  You can try both ways and see what has better/more bass.  The phase essentially switches the polarity of the woofer.  If the signal is normally pushing the woofer out, the phase switch will pull it inwards instead.  This can help if the subwoofer is placed further away from your listening position than the main Yamaha speakers.  For example, if you are sitting about 8 feet away from the Yamaha speakers, and the subwoofer is about 11 feet away, some of the bass frequencies from both Yamaha/subwoofer can cancel each other out.  It will just take some listening tests for you to determine which phase switch setting works better.

As far as acoustic treatments, I have used them heavily.  I have about 14 acoustic panels in my own room, including several types.  I have broadband, somewhat narrow band, panel/membrane, and tuned membrane.  It just depends on what you're after.  If you like the way your system sounds, maybe it's best not to start spending.  Acoustic panels can help things, but they can also hurt things.  If you feel you are having bass nulls, it's extremely challenging for a bass trap to treat anything under 90-100 hz.  The GIK Acoustics Monster Bass Trap with FLEXRANGE limiter does an effective job down to about 80 Hz, but does not absorb the mids/highs as much.  If you need something under 80hz, the only real way is to get a tuned membrane traps (such as GIK Scopus).  It's a challenging area. 

In general, some acoustic panels can help, but it's easy to put too much in and all of a sudden the room becomes to dead sounding (not exciting enough).  If you want to play, in your room one idea would be to put broadband panels behind the Yamaha speakers to reduce the echoes bouncing from the back wall to the front wall.  Since you have the speakers on the long wall, I don't think you will have "first reflection" problems.

As far as other tweaks, we can get into fuse and power cord upgrades.  If your interested, let me know and we can start a discussion, but of course it means spending more money. 

I don’t think anyone in the house would let me put up any acoustic absorbers, diffusers, or bass traps anyway lol.

But I’m definitely interested in other types of upgrades. Please tell me more..

fuses - fuses can change the character of the sound in your audio equipment.  The stock fuses are usually bright/harsh/tinny as they have a lot of electrical resonance.  A few fuses I would look at:  Isoclean, Furutech, PADIS.  The Isoclean are made from gold-plated copper material.  They have a nice warm sound and can help take the edge off of harsh sounding electronics.  They can rolloff some of the high frequencies in some equipment.  The Furutech fuses are completely opposite - as they are very fast and very transparent.  Very strong deep tight bass, lots of extreme clarity in the upper mids and highs.  The Furutech are rhodium plated, which can be a double-edged sword in the sense that it can reveal flaws in your equipment (such as bad power cord, poor power supply, poor circuits, etc.).  They are the highest resolution fuses, in my opinion.

The PADIS fuses are just about directly in the middle, but still significantly better than any stock fuse.  They are not so warm and slow as the Isoclean, but not as fast and high resolution/sweet as the Furutech.  They are very cheap at $25USD plus shipping.  You can get them on ebay and they are shipped from Germany.

There are other fuses - Hi Fi Tuning Supreme (which is silver -- I don't like these in audio circuits, but they are excellent in digital transports).  The Synergistic BLUE fuse has been getting very positive reviews, but they are extremely expensive.

I can't see any way to replace the fuse in the Audio-GD.  The Klipsch subwoofer uses a small 5mm x 20mm size fuses - 5A for 110V, 4A for 220V.  The Yamaha uses a small 5mm x 20mm 2.5A fuse, but you can just use a 3A.  The Yamaha fuse is inside on the circuit board, which requires you to disassemble the box.  Removing the tweeter/woofer and then taking out the plate amp is required to replace the fuse.

Please be aware that there are several naysayers and unbelievers on this forum about fuses - they have a tendency to very negatively attack any conversation about fuses -- at that point, the discussion goes into a toilet with a huge argument.  Just warning ya.

Upgraded power cords can also improve the sound of electronics.  There are tons of different opinions, but in my testing, solid-core conductors beat everything else.  The Audioquest power cords all use solid-core conductors (except for the very cheapest).  I use the NRG-4 power cord, which is the best Audioquest cord without the DBS battery.  The NRG-2 / NRG-3 / NRG-5 are also good.

The Stock NRG-4 uses gold-plated copper plugs.  The combination of solid-core PFC copper and gold-plated plugs creates a very nice natural sound with a lot of weight.  The gold-plated connectors are very warm sounding and do not have the resolution of other connectors.  I always chop the ends and put on Furutech Rhodium plugs, which is always superior in high resolution sound and deep/tight bass.  The stock Audioquest cables are very nice.  The more expensive ones use DBS battery and also use silver-plated plugs.

The Audioquest power cords can be got used on ebay (which is perfectly fine).  Just search for "audioquest nrg" and you'll get a couple from UK and many from USA.