Amp recommendation and setup advice please


Hello,

I love music and I adore quality sound - I cannot listen to music on ordinary speakers/devices.

I have been trying to do my research on sound systems/speakers/amps etc.. and learn/understand the whole shebang, but I'm not that much of a tech head. 

I want to buy the Klipsch RF-7 II tower speakers (I think they are passive, hence requiring an amp). 

I want them for both my new TV and also the vinyl/turntable setup I am going for, which is as follows:

Turntable - ProJect Debut Carbon Premium with Ortofon 2M RED (cartridge)
Phono (pre-amp) - ProJect Phono Box DS
Speakers - as above
Subwoofer - thinking either Klipsch R-12SW or R112SW
Amp - ??

I have a few questions:

1. Am I on the right tracks for having all the essentials?
2. Can someone recommend a good amp to power my speakers and sub please, and does the sub need powering or does it have it's own amp? 
3. Do I need a DAC for TV and connection to laptop? If so can you recommend a good one please? I was thinking of Audioengine D1 Premium 24 bit DAC Interface Connector.
4. Please suggest any alternative products if any of the stuff I mentioned are no good or don't fit together that well.
5. How would I set all of this up? Do I need anything else?
6. Do I need more speakers? I'm worried that the sub may be too much bass and drown out the tower speakers. 

I apologise for my lack of knowledge - I've just signed up here because I read that I could get advice and guidance from enthusiasts and experts. I know that my questions and post may frustrate some of you as I may have made some rookie mistakes, and perhaps this type of post has been done a 100 or so times but wasn't sure how to get answers/help. 

Many kind thanks in advance!

Mo
laher

Upgraded power cords can also improve the sound of electronics.  There are tons of different opinions, but in my testing, solid-core conductors beat everything else.  The Audioquest power cords all use solid-core conductors (except for the very cheapest).  I use the NRG-4 power cord, which is the best Audioquest cord without the DBS battery.  The NRG-2 / NRG-3 / NRG-5 are also good.

The Stock NRG-4 uses gold-plated copper plugs.  The combination of solid-core PFC copper and gold-plated plugs creates a very nice natural sound with a lot of weight.  The gold-plated connectors are very warm sounding and do not have the resolution of other connectors.  I always chop the ends and put on Furutech Rhodium plugs, which is always superior in high resolution sound and deep/tight bass.  The stock Audioquest cables are very nice.  The more expensive ones use DBS battery and also use silver-plated plugs.

The Audioquest power cords can be got used on ebay (which is perfectly fine).  Just search for "audioquest nrg" and you'll get a couple from UK and many from USA.

fuses - fuses can change the character of the sound in your audio equipment.  The stock fuses are usually bright/harsh/tinny as they have a lot of electrical resonance.  A few fuses I would look at:  Isoclean, Furutech, PADIS.  The Isoclean are made from gold-plated copper material.  They have a nice warm sound and can help take the edge off of harsh sounding electronics.  They can rolloff some of the high frequencies in some equipment.  The Furutech fuses are completely opposite - as they are very fast and very transparent.  Very strong deep tight bass, lots of extreme clarity in the upper mids and highs.  The Furutech are rhodium plated, which can be a double-edged sword in the sense that it can reveal flaws in your equipment (such as bad power cord, poor power supply, poor circuits, etc.).  They are the highest resolution fuses, in my opinion.

The PADIS fuses are just about directly in the middle, but still significantly better than any stock fuse.  They are not so warm and slow as the Isoclean, but not as fast and high resolution/sweet as the Furutech.  They are very cheap at $25USD plus shipping.  You can get them on ebay and they are shipped from Germany.

There are other fuses - Hi Fi Tuning Supreme (which is silver -- I don't like these in audio circuits, but they are excellent in digital transports).  The Synergistic BLUE fuse has been getting very positive reviews, but they are extremely expensive.

I can't see any way to replace the fuse in the Audio-GD.  The Klipsch subwoofer uses a small 5mm x 20mm size fuses - 5A for 110V, 4A for 220V.  The Yamaha uses a small 5mm x 20mm 2.5A fuse, but you can just use a 3A.  The Yamaha fuse is inside on the circuit board, which requires you to disassemble the box.  Removing the tweeter/woofer and then taking out the plate amp is required to replace the fuse.

Please be aware that there are several naysayers and unbelievers on this forum about fuses - they have a tendency to very negatively attack any conversation about fuses -- at that point, the discussion goes into a toilet with a huge argument.  Just warning ya.

I don’t think anyone in the house would let me put up any acoustic absorbers, diffusers, or bass traps anyway lol.

But I’m definitely interested in other types of upgrades. Please tell me more..

The phase switch can help with blending in bass with the main speakers.  You can try both ways and see what has better/more bass.  The phase essentially switches the polarity of the woofer.  If the signal is normally pushing the woofer out, the phase switch will pull it inwards instead.  This can help if the subwoofer is placed further away from your listening position than the main Yamaha speakers.  For example, if you are sitting about 8 feet away from the Yamaha speakers, and the subwoofer is about 11 feet away, some of the bass frequencies from both Yamaha/subwoofer can cancel each other out.  It will just take some listening tests for you to determine which phase switch setting works better.

As far as acoustic treatments, I have used them heavily.  I have about 14 acoustic panels in my own room, including several types.  I have broadband, somewhat narrow band, panel/membrane, and tuned membrane.  It just depends on what you're after.  If you like the way your system sounds, maybe it's best not to start spending.  Acoustic panels can help things, but they can also hurt things.  If you feel you are having bass nulls, it's extremely challenging for a bass trap to treat anything under 90-100 hz.  The GIK Acoustics Monster Bass Trap with FLEXRANGE limiter does an effective job down to about 80 Hz, but does not absorb the mids/highs as much.  If you need something under 80hz, the only real way is to get a tuned membrane traps (such as GIK Scopus).  It's a challenging area. 

In general, some acoustic panels can help, but it's easy to put too much in and all of a sudden the room becomes to dead sounding (not exciting enough).  If you want to play, in your room one idea would be to put broadband panels behind the Yamaha speakers to reduce the echoes bouncing from the back wall to the front wall.  Since you have the speakers on the long wall, I don't think you will have "first reflection" problems.

As far as other tweaks, we can get into fuse and power cord upgrades.  If your interested, let me know and we can start a discussion, but of course it means spending more money. 

Also, when reading up on speaker position and those nulls you spoke of, I came across acoustic panels and bass traps.

Do you/have you used these before? Would you recommend that I explore this addition or is it overkill?

Are there any other ways to enhance my sound?
Wanted to give you an update. 

The Klipsch R-112SW is awesome!! Bass is deep, rich, and clean. It’s genuienly amongst the best lows I’ve heard, I’m very happy!

Movies now have that theatre effect that I was looking for, and together with the Yamaha’s the setup seems to be complete. 

I have the gain on the Klipsch at half and the low pass at around 120hz. 

What does the phase switch do? I have two settings: 0 and 180 and it looks like each number has a degrees symbol next to it. It’s currently on zero because I didn’t touch it since taking it out of the box. 
Thanks auxinput.

I think I’ll get the AQ Chocolate as they sell in the U.K. so I will save on international delivery charges.

But it’s good to know about the Neotech for when I need a decent HDMI for myself one day.

There is one area where silver definitely makes a positive impact and that is with digital cables (including COAX and HDMI). Silver is a much better conductor than copper and will charge/discharge much faster. This is critical when dealing with digital square waveform signals that are extremely high frequency (like megahertz). For normal audio waveforms, I prefer pure copper.

The other aspect of digital cables is length. It is said that you should really use 1.5 meter or 4.5 feet as minimum length to reduce the amount of signal reflection back to the originating transceiver. Signal reflections can cause distortions in the waveform and cause inaccuracies. I have used short cables and this can be heard as a slight smearing of the audio. I always use 2 meter / 6 foot digital cables just to be sure (toslink doesn’t count here because it’s light).

This is the cable I use:

http://audiosensibility.com/blog/products-2/digital-cables-occ-copper-and-occ-silver/#!/Neotech-NEHH-4200-HDMI-1-4-Cable/p/17895256/category=4059160

I like it because it’s not extremely expensive and he cryogenically treats the cable (which solidifies the conductors just a little bit more and enables more high frequency transmission). The Audioquest Chocolate is also a good choice as it uses silver-plated conductors as well.  I might think the Neotech has a slight advantage because Audio Sensibility does the cryo treatment.

I have wondered about upgrading to something better like Wire World Starlight 7 or Silver Starlight 7, but other things have higher priority on my list and I don’t feel that my Neotech HDMI cable is a weak link yet.

You may or may not notice any difference in your system with upgraded HDMI cable. However, you might notice a slight improvement in video clarity.

Would it be worth buying a decent HDMI cable? I've read conflicting articles about high end HDMI cables vs basic ones. 

The Satellite is connected to the TV via HDMI, and the TV is connected to the DAC via digital cable (because of Netflix being played through the TV app). I tried the digital cable straight into the Satellite and it seems to give the same sound as when plugged into the TV.

But with the digital cable plugged into the TV, the input is going from the Satellite through the HDMI to the TV, and then through the digital cable to the DAC... hence my question about upgrading the HDMI cable.

If it is worth spending a bit more on a decent HDMI, is this one any good:

https://www.audiosanctuary.co.uk/audioquest-pearl-hdmi-high-speed-v1.4.html

Then there's the next one up:

https://www.audiosanctuary.co.uk/audioquest-chocolate-hdmi-v1.4.html

Thanks!
Thanks again for input and recommendations. 

I have purchased 2 Belden 1695A cables (15 feet each) and also purchased the Klipsch R-112SW (managed to find a UK dealer who had stock). 

I'll start with one sub for now and see how I get on and may look to introduce a second one down the line but I think this should be good enough for now. 

I'll keep you posted once I receive everything and hook it all up. 

Thanks again auxinput!



There are other subwoofers you can get.  Look at these on the ebay UK site:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/b/Speakers-Subwoofers/14990?Configuration=Single%2520Subwoofer&rt=nc&_sop=3&_udhi=500

There is a Revel B120.  Also, several BK subs so that you could get two if you wanted.  Or just get one to start and put it as close to the corner as you can get.  If you get two subs, use Left RCA for one sub and Right RCA for the second sub.  If you only get one sub, use both left/right RCA into the same sub.

You can play with the Yamaha's position.  I think generally, you need a little bit of space away from the wall (at least 1-2 feet) because the bass ports are on the back side of the speakers.  But I think the best bet would be to put a subwoofer in each corner. Then set them at about 80hz (the Yamaha's may not play that low when in the middle of the wall).

I can understand your concern on the "split" of the Audioquest cable.  It is definitely not that wide, and the left/right RCA outputs on the Audio-GD are spaced far apart.  I would look at the Belden 1695A Coax cable for subwoofer.  These come in single cables, so you can get two of these (one for each corner sub).

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/subwoofer/index.htm

The 1695A uses a solid-core 18awg copper conductor.  In my opinion, this would be an excellent cable for transferring bass frequencies.  Smaller awg conductors do not transfer bass as well.  In my testing, 20awg seems to be the best overall compromise - small enough for high frequency detail, but still large enough for good bass.  When going to smaller 22awg conductors, I get much leaner bass and too much bright highs.  The Audioquest interconnects typically use 21awg conductors.

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There are definitely counterfeit cables on ebay and stuff.  The Kimber Cable speaker wire is very easy to counterfeit because you cannot tell the difference - it's just braided wire.  There are other Furutech connector counterfeits.  Lots of counterfeit junk on ebay from China - stuff that is "too good to be true".  However, buying something like used Audioquest on ebay or elsewhere is usually pretty good.  I have not seen counterfeit "equipment".

I have the gain on the DAC on low, the level on the Yamaha set to +4dB (half way), and all the presets to zero/flat. I may up the mids and highs to see how that sounds but I think it might not be necessary. 

I’m happy with the sound when I play music, but I guess it makes sense that the sound isn’t as good with the movies/TV if they are mastered to a 5.1 surround sound.

Maybe a HT processor or AVR would have been a good idea considering this was supposed to be a TV setup, but I’m happy sticking with the preamp/DAC. Apologies for my lack of knowledge and experience in all of this, but I do think the conversations took a turn for the best so thank you for your guidance. After all, it’s just a TV set up for my father and he is happy. I think the addition of a sub will complete the setup in my opinion (but this will be more for me than for my father lol). 

I’ll probably get the Audioquest Sydney (for example) at some point just to hear the difference between gold and silver plated interconnects, not because I think I need it. 

My DAC won’t support two subs right? I will try to purchase the Klipsch but it’s proving difficult finding a dealer in the U.K.

I could buy the Audioquest Big Sur for connecting the sub to the DAC right (RCA to RCA)? The thing that worries me is that the picture of the Big Sur looks as if the left and right connector split isn’t long enough to plug into the ports on the DAC. Does this make sense to you? I might not be explaining myself very well here.

This may be a silly question, but how worried should I be about knock offs and replicas when it comes to buying audio equipment off eBay or Amazon for example?

Unfortunately it’s not possible to put the speakers on the short walls. Any tips for making the most out of the long wall. I read one theory about putting them as close to the wall as possible, and if you can it’s best to mount them into the wall so that they are flush. The other theory was about putting them a foot or two away from the wall. I want to avoid or minimise the nulls in my room.

The gain setting on the DAC just dictates how loud the output will be.  I would say to use Low or High unless you feel that the sound does not get loud enough.  You do have a volume adjustment on the back of the Yamaha, so I think any gain setting will work.

Select the Fast / Slow volume control characteristics.
        H: Fast.  64 steps range.  
        L: Slow. 100 steps range.
        F: (Full ) High gain mode. 100 steps range. (For the low sensitivity headphone like the HE-6 or the source had low output voltage level)
        S: (Super)High gain mode. 64 steps range. (For the low sensitivity headphone like the HE-6 or the source had low output voltage level)

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Relating to the clarity of the sound, make sure that the setting switches on the back of the Yamaha are all set to "FLAT" or "0".  The switches are not always in the middle position for FLAT/0.  If this is the case, you can try doing a "+2" setting on the MID EQ or the HIGH TRIM.  This may increase the clarity of the mids / highs for you.  Play around and see what you like the best.  Alternatively, you could try Audioquest interconnects that have the silver-plated connectors (such as Mackenzie or Sydney).  Silver plated will give faster mids/highs, but may be leaner on the bass.  In my opinion, gold plated connectors sound more natural, but it's all personal preference.

Movie/television soundtracks are mastered with a 5.1 system in mind.  Unfortunately, you might have to live with the sound if you want to keep the DAC.  Also, the Audio-GD DAC will not support a center channel.  Way back in the beginning of this thread, I tried recommending doing an HT processor or receiver, but it seems our discussion went towards a 2-channel DAC.  Sorry about that. 

If you really want a center channel, you could just get an HT receiver to do the dolby digital / dts decoding for center speaker and use different cable for Yamaha (maybe a RCA -to -XLR adapter cable).  Then use the Audio-GD DAC for your own high end system. 

---------------

If you feel okay with the general sound quality and just want more low bass, the subwoofer idea is good.  The Klipsch R-112SW appears to be a good choice.  Yes, having two subs is better than one.  This allows you to place them in different locations and works better to handle room nodes.  Generally, a room will have bass NULLS, which are areas / frequencies where the bass waveforms cancel each other out from wall reflections.  Having two subs will help reduce these cancellations and give you better bass.  The Klipsch have RCA inputs, so you just need RCA cables and use the standard RCA outputs of the DAC.  You can use both the RCA and XLR outputs at the same time.  The XLR will go to the Yamahas.  The RCA will go to the Klipsch sub(s).  Then just set the crossover on the subwoofer to something like 40-50hz and adjust the gain on the subwoofer to your preference for bass.

As far as room, sometimes we are at the mercy of furniture and other restrictions.  Generally, I think the best would be to put the left/right speakers on the short wall for best sound, but other things may prevent this.  If you get subs, it is definitely best to try to put them into the corners to boost the bass.  Having speakers set in the middle of the long wall is definitely going to produce weak bass (in my experience).

Ignore the centre speaker parts, I realised that I'm talking garbage. I have a stereo setup and centre speaker is for surround setups so it doesn't make sense. I also don't think I have the available ports on my preamp/DAC after adding a sub. 
@auxinput apologies for the delayed response, it was my sisters wedding weekend. 

I have the Audioquest Redriver interconnects (XLR) from Yamaha monitors to DAC, and Lifatec Toslink digital cable from DAC to Satellite. I also tried the digital cable into the TV and it’s the same as when plugged into the Satellite. 

I changed the sound settings on the Satellite to stereo, and I have the DAC gain set to low. There are 4 gain settings: low, full, high, and super high. I read that a low gain with higher volume will result in a more neutral sound. Is this true? I’m not sure which gain setting I should be using. 

I have played music via Bluetooth on the Satellite (from my iPhone) and the sound is what I expected - the bass is impressive considering there’s no subwoofer. However when watching TV and movies there’s almost no bass. 

Perhaps a subwoofer would make a difference and pick up the 20-80hz range? Also, I was thinking about adding in a centre speaker too. Would this be a good idea? 

Will the DAC be able to power everything if I added the sub and centre speaker? And does the DAC have the availability to output to these?

I was reading that speaker position is vital. My room is 7.5m by 3.5m (roughly), and the TV/speakers are against the long wall. I have the tweeters at ear level when seated, very close to the wall, angled in to the couch creating a triangle effect. The speakers are about 2.5m apart from each other. Any reccomendarions for improving the positioning?

the sub you mentioned is one I short listed but stretching the budget a little bit, especially if I am to buy a centre speaker. I was also looking at the Klipsch R-112SW. Is this a good one? Also, is it better to have two average subs or one really good one?
your comment about eliminating or minimizing the effect of interconnect, could you please elaborate? I own an ARC Ref6 and ARC Ref150se and I keep getting advice from certain dealers that I should upgrade my IC between the two. I will say this; I have four XLR IC's at my disposal at unless it's in my head, they do sound different! Does this mean my Ref6 is not good at it's job? My question is posed with nothing but earnest sincerity.
@fsonicsmith  The balanced line system has a set of standards which are in part there to eliminate noise and also to reduce cable interactions. This is why in the recording studio it unusual to see really expensive cables, simply because the differences are inaudible.

If the equipment does not support the balanced standard, then cable differences can be heard. Audio Research to the best of my knowledge has never supported the standard (also known as Audio Engineering Society file 48) but that is actually pretty common in high end audio.

The aspects that make the cable more audible are:
1) output impedance- if this is high, more cable artifacts (IOW the character of the cable) can be heard.
2) In the balanced standard, ground is ignored and is only used for shielding. In this way no ground currents pass through the shield of the cable. What this means is that the signal occurs between pin 2 and 3 of the XLR connection and floats with respect to ground.

In an ARC preamp and a number of others, the inverted and non-inverted signals do have their output with respect to ground  and not to each other. This causes the cable to become an audible portion of the overall system sound. One advantage of this is that either output can be used to drive an RCA connection just by hooking up the RCA connector. What this means is that such a setup is really just two single ended connections that are simply out of phase with each other, which is not actually how balanced line is supposed to work- its signal does have the two aspects out of phase with each other, but its not a pair of single-ended outputs. I hope I have explained this in a way that is easy to understand.

Sorry for my slow response- I only just now found your question.

What RCA cables are you using between the DAC and the Yamaha studio monitors?

If you really wanted a sub, you could get one. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SVS-SB-2000-Sub-Woofer-Black-Ash-NEW/182943070158?hash=item2a9841b7ce:g:jzcAAOSwcj5ZP7PW

Not a recommendation, but something you can look at.  There's many others that are both cheaper and more expensive.

If you have digital cable between satellite and DAC, you must go into the satellite menu settings and make sure that "Dolby Digital" is turned off or that you have set the sound to "stereo" mode. 

If you used a 1/8" to RCA convertor cable to connect the TV to the Audio-GD DAC, you could be losing sound quality because of poor cable as well as poor audio from the TV.  If this is the only way you can do this, then there's nothing much you can do.

I always advise using digital COAX or toslink cable to connect to the DAC.

As far as bass, the Yamaha studio monitors are pretty good on the bass, as long as your source is good (see first paragraph).  If you feel you are missing bass, it is most likely an acoustic problem with the room.  I have been there.  Room probably requires bass traps to reduce the standing waves.

Those Neumann KH310A you mentioned earlier are in a totally different league than those other speakers you mentioned. They're also $4500 a pair. You wouldn't need an amp though. There are 6 of them in the Neumanns. I own a pair, and they sound wonderful. They actually look much nicer in person than pictures would lead you to believe. They sound huge for such a small speaker, and go really low. Check the specs.
You should be able to run video from satellite box to the TV via HDMI, and audio from the satellite box to the DAC via coax, then DAC to the powered speakers. Is this the way you are set up? 

You have volume control on the DAC and the speakers. Try setting the DAC at fixed output and controlling volume on the speaker. 

Do the powered speakers have tone controls? Might play with these.

Achieve the sonics you desire from the system prior to considering augmenting the bass via use of a subwoofer. 


@auxinput I have everything up and running now but I’m not entirely convinced of the sounds. Perhaps I have set it all up incorrectly or maybe I need to do something with the settings of the TV or Satellite?

I feel like I need a subwoofer as the bass isn’t enough, and I also feel like there isn’t enough clarity in the highs (possibly the mids). 

Any thoughts/recommendations please? 
Ralph, re: your comment about eliminating or minimizing the effect of interconnect, could you please elaborate? I own an ARC Ref6 and ARC Ref150se and I keep getting advice from certain dealers that I should upgrade my IC between the two. I will say this; I have four XLR IC's at my disposal at unless it's in my head, they do sound different! Does this mean my Ref6 is not good at it's job? My question is posed with nothing but earnest sincerity.

Essentially, a preamp is used for several things:

- As a way to switch between multiple sound sources (i.e. CD player, tape, etc.)

- Be able to provide a way to adjust volume

- Contains a circuit that has enough current to drive certain amps (sometimes digital sources do not have enough current in the analog output circuits).

You missed one- the line stage is also used to reduce or eliminate the effects of the interconnect cable. This is probably the least understood function of the line stage.
You might be able to use an audio output from the TV. The NFB has one set of RCA analog stereo inputs (IN5). You might have to get a special cable.  It would not be as good as digital input, because you would be using the DAC in the TV, but it would probably work.

No, it would not work.

Please re-read this entire thread very carefully.  We have already covered the ideas of an HT Receiver or HT Processor.  This is what you would need for HDMI stuff.  During our discussions, the direction went towards a high-end 2-channel DAC. 

Would HDMI cable work from TV to NFB for getting 2 channel audio on Netflix?

What about 3.5mm audio jack to RCA cable, would that work?

Okay I’ll leave the EQ settings at zero. What about room control, what does this do? Does it have something to do with how close my speakers are to a wall for example?

The length of toslink doesn't matter like COAX.  As I said, you could try using the toslink output from the TV, but it's likely that it won't work with a 2-channel DAC like the Audio-GD.  You may have to get a cheap Sony bluray player to stream Netflix.  These have an setting in the Audio section for "Downmix: stereo".  It will output a 2-channel digital signal for the Audio-GD DAC and you can use the bluejean 1694A for this.  Then just use a standard toslink for the satellite.  It's important to go into the satellite receiver menu and make sure that "Dolby Digital" is disabled so that it sends a stereo digital signal through toslink.

The back of the Yamaha has switch settings.  These are basically EQ settings to boost/cut certain areas (such as bass / midrange / treble).  It is best just to set these at "0" or "Flat" to start with.

Apologies, I didn’t realise that the TV has a built in Netflix app. 

Okay so XLR cables from speaker to NFB and the the optical digital cable from NFB to either the TV or the Satellite box. 
Do I need to worry about a particular length of cables like before with the bluejean? 

On the back of the speakers there are controls for level, mid EQ, room control, high trim, and low cut.
Would you mind please explaining what these functions do and how I would used them?

Well, initially you only said satellite.  Including the Netflix stuff may cause some difficulty.  You could try connecting a toslink from the TV, but you have to make sure that it can be setup to ouput a stereo digital signal (Netflix will have stuff like multi-channel Dolby Digital Plus). 

The Lifatec toslink is an optical digital cable.

For Yamaha, you should look for Audioquest XLR cables.  You may need to look around for a UK Audioquest distributor, maybe something like this:

https://www.audiodestination.co.uk/cables/interconnects/audioquest-red-river-interconnects-pair

There can be others.  Or you can try ordering from a USA distributor, like Audio Advisor.

Also, which audioquest cables should I be looking at? I don’t mean Big Sur vs Golden Gate for example, I mean the type of connectors on the end of the cable? I can’t seem to find the right type. 

The HS80M has XLR and 1/4” TRS jack. I should use XLR right? And then the other end would also be XLR (going into the NFB)?

Do you have a link for the right cable please?
Thanks, makes sense about the preamp/DAC. Looking forward to seeing what the NFB will do. 

I checked the back of the TV and the back of the Satellite box.

The Satellite box only has two USB ports and 1 optical out. The HDMI and 2 Satellite ins are being used. 

The TV has 2 USB ports, 4 HDMI ports, 1 Satellite in, 1 optical digital audio out, and 2 ports which I’m not sure what they are - 1 says audio out/ H/P and the other says RS-232C (SVC only).

The Lifatec Toslink is an optical digital cable? It seems like this is the cable I will have to buy right? And I think it would be better to plug it into the TV as the TV is also used for Netflix not just the Satellite. 

Essentially, a preamp is used for several things:

- As a way to switch between multiple sound sources (i.e. CD player, tape, etc.)

- Be able to provide a way to adjust volume

- Contains a circuit that has enough current to drive certain amps (sometimes digital sources do not have enough current in the analog output circuits).

 

You can add a preamp into the mix, but it is not really needed with the NFB-28.28.  The NFB already has a volume control.  You can attached multiple digital sources to the unit as well as one analog source (the IN5 RCA inputs).  The current in the NFB should be fine to drive any amp you attach.  The Yamaha studio monitors will have a preamp type circuit inside because it needs an active analog circuit for the crossover to separate the woofer amp and the tweeter amp.  In your situation, the only reason to add a preamp is if you felt the NFB was lacking in some way.  For example, if you had a CD player that was very bright/harsh sounding, you could get a tube preamp or a warm-sounding preamp to put in between.  This would further modify the analog waveforms from the DAC to calm down the sound.

Honestly, I think the sound quality of the Audio-GD is high enough that you would have to spend a lot of money on a preamp to get something better than what is already output from the NFB (like $2,000 or more).

You are correct in the understanding that a DAC converts digital data (0s and 1s) to an analog waveform.  Anything coming from satellite TV or CD or bluray is going to be transmitted in digital format, so there has to be a DAC somewhere.  Many satellite receivers have a DAC inside because you will usually see left/right analog RCA outputs, but the quality is going to be poor compared to Audio-GD.  The conversion from digital to an analog waveform is where the sound quality of the Audio-GD is superior.  The power supply and DAC / analog circuits are significantly better.  You can always get better than the NFB, but it will cost more.  Just look at the NFB-27.77.  The chassis is twice as large.  Three separate power supplies (one for digital and two for analog).  Fully balanced analog circuits.  Over twice as expensive.

It’s not that the DAC chip should be described as powerful.  You want to get a DAC that is clean/accurate.  Large capacity linear power supply, fully discrete analog circuits, good design approach, etc.

On the Blue Jean 1694A, select “Digital Audio” for the application for sure.  They use specific RCA connectors and the RCA connectors are different for other purposes (such as subwoofer, stereo, etc.).  The cable color doesn’t really matter.  I usually just get black, but you can get anything you want.  Obviously, get the “RCA/RCA” connectors.  Remember, 6 feet long (to avoid short cable signal reflections).

There might be a small chance that the satellite receive does not have COAX.  In that case, you will probably need to use a toslink digital cable.  The lifatec toslink cables are the best for the money that I know of.  The length doesn’t matter.

http://www.lifatec.com/toslink2.html

Hopefully, I’ve answered everything.

Thanks for the clarification auxinput - I have ordered the NFB-28.28. 
I imagine it will take some time to arrive considering it's coming from China. 

Apologies, maybe I didn't ask the right question(s) or phrase them very well. 

My current understanding of a preamp is that it will clean up the signal and boost/prepare the signal to be strong enough for further processing. Is this a correct summary? I was trying to get your technical input on what the preamp will actually do for me considering that there is already an amplifier in the speakers. What would the sound be like without the preamp?

My understanding of a DAC is that it converts the signal from digital (1s and 0s) to analogue (wave form) which is the preferred format for speakers as well as analogue being the original format of the recorded sound. Again, is this correct? What will the sound be like without a DAC? Is the integrated DAC in the NFB powerful? 

We previously discussed cables: the Bluejean cable is a coaxial cable right? Do I plug this into the TV or the Satellite box? Also, the link that you provided for the Belden 1694A Bluejean cable has different application/channel/boot colour options - what options should I be selecting to place my order?
https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/shopbycable/1694A.htm

Is a coaxial cable the best cable/connection for the preamp and TV/Satellite? Perhaps it's the only option? The reason I ask is because I'm just wondering what would I need to do if there is no coaxial input (that's spare) on the TV or Satellite box?


Given your amp only has XLR inputs, I would purchase the model that has XLR outputs. Given that the DACs are also preamps, I would try them in my system directly into the amp prior to considering the purchase of a separate pre. Otherwise I would purchase a DAC with fixed output. It may be that the Pre/DACs you are considering cn be switch to fixed output.

Let’s look at the Audio-GD models:

NFB-29.28 : RCA output only 

NFB-28.28 : RCA + XLR outputs

Internally, these two models are almost exactly the same.  The “28” model output stage is engineered to work for XLR balanced output.  This means that the “29” RCA-only model is a tiny bit better when using RCA cables.  In your situations, this is pretty much splitting hairs and I don’t think you would really notice the difference.  You would be better off getting the “28” RCA+XLR model so that you could support both types of cables if you wanted.

As I said, the Yamaha HS80M only has XLR and 1/4" TRS inputs.  You can get special RCA-to-TRS cables on ebay and other places.  These are typically pro-audio cables and are made by vendors such as HOSA or Mogami.  They will NOT be as good as Audioquest cables.  HOSA cables are cheap.  Mogami can be pretty okay (probably good enough for your situation).

None of the audiophile cable makers will have special RCA-to-TRS cables.  You could always have somebody chop the ends and wire them into TRS connectors, but it’s more labor and money obviously.  I think it’s better just to get the “28” model so that you can get audiophile level XLR cables to connect to the Yamaha monitors.

If you ended up already ordering the “29” model and cannot change the order, you can try to get some Mogami RCA-to-TRS cables.  Or something on UK Ebay such as:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pseudo-Balanced-RCA-Phono-to-TRS-Jack-Lead-PAIR-Van-Damme-Starquad-Cable/172382399235?hash=item2822caab03:m:mTnMtSg5Z26b_pog38jH39g

----

As far as your preamp question, the NFB-29.28 or NFB-28.28 are already preamps that have a DAC built-in.  We call it a “preamp” because it has the ability to adjust the volume up/down via the front panel knob or remote.  You can get a separate preamp if you wanted, but you don’t need to.  It would just be another element in the audio chain to affect/mold the sound.

There are some Audio-GD models that are considered a DAC only because the output level is fixed (non-adjustable).

I bought the HS80Ms (the second eBay link you sent me).
I was able to hear them and I was thoroughly pleased :)
The seller had them plugged into a sound card and that into a laptop.
What benefits/differences will a preamp provide? Same question about the integrated DAC element of the NFB that I’m buying?

How much of a problem will it be if I buy the 29.28? Are those type of cables easy to find in the same quality as the Audioquest ones you recommended?

You may want to consider the NFB 28.28 instead.  It has balanced XLR outputs as well as RCA.  The Yamaha studio monitors have both balanced XLR and a 1/4" TRS plug inputs.  They do NOT have standard RCA inputs, so if you chose the 29.28, you would need special RCA-to-TRS or RCA-to-XLR cables.

If you get the NFB 28.28, you can use standard XLR cables, which are available from Audioquest.

I’m going to pick the HS80M speakers up tomorrow, only an hour drive from me. Agreed £350 with the seller :)

I’m also going to purchase the NFB and cables later on today. 

Then I just need to hook it all up and test it out - I’ll keep you posted with updates/feedback. 

And then probably in the new year I will start with my turntable project :)

Googling around:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCiLSOZXaQo

It could be small differences, but the new HS8 doesn't push the midbass as much and is a little clearer in the midrange.  Not sure if you would really notice.

I don't have experience with any of the other monitors.  Some have Class D amps, which I have found to be very extremely clean sounding but lack engaging music.  With Class D, there is just no emotional engagement with the music for me.  Recording engineers are using these Class D amps a lot because it helps them hear the mix much clearer, but it may not be what you want for home listening. 

I have been seriously considering upgrading to the Stealth 8 for a  couple years now, but other things have been higher priority.

Thanks for finding them on UK eBay auxinput. 

How do the HS80M compare to the HS8s? I may buy the one in the second link you provided but wanted to understand if there's a big difference between old and new. Do they handle detailed songs well?

Also, what's your opinion on the following:

- JBL LSR 305
- Neumann KH 310
- Adam Audio A7X
- Mackie HR824mk2
- KRK RP6G3 Rokit 6

These are way out of budget for this particular project but have you seen the Emotiva Stealth 8s? 

If you want powered monitors, I actually use Yamaha HS80m monitors for my computer speakers. They are actually not bad. There are a couple used on UK Ebay:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yamaha-HS80M-studio-near-field-reference-monitors-PAIRED-BOXED-free-stands/172900963242?hash=item2841b353aa:g:bAcAAOSwEvhZ0k1p

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yamaha-HS80M-Powered-Monitor-Speakers-PAIR-In-Boxes-WITH-FREE-STANDS/253206255141?hash=item3af444d625:g:w8EAAOSwH4xZ4IPA

Or you can try to find the newer Yamaha HS8 monitors, but will be even more than the Emotivas. Not sure if these will be better than the Emotiva. Emotiva has a lot more power and will probably be more laid back sounding than the Yamaha. The Yamaha are very neutral, but also very revealing. They have a larger 8" woofer so they would play a lot lower than either of the Emotiva monitors.

Hi auxinput, apologies I've been on travels. Thanks again for all the responses.

I have spoken with Emotiva and they don't ship to the European market unfortunately and their UK distributor hasn't agreed a delivery contract with them yet. 

Are you able to recommend an alternative speaker that's equal or even better than the Airmotiv 6s please?

I am ready to buy the NFB-29.28 but need to either find the Airmotiv 6s or another speaker. 

I am going to complete this project first as my father now has his new TV and satellite all setup. 

Then I can start on my baby :)

I came across this thread talking about the NFB 29 (which is what you are considering):

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/audio-gd-nfb-29-single-ended-master-race-lol.732157/

Interestingly enough, he is using it through some AirMotiv speakers! lol.  Lot's of good feedback on this NFB 29.  One of the comments that stood out to me:

The nfb11 has some harshness to it in the treble regions that the nfb29 doesn't have... The 29 is more dynamic, more detailed and overall better. Much bigger sound stage, much better separation and imaging.

Though, if you spend more you get something better, obviously.

oh, to follow up on a couple questions:

Here is a good review and discussion of the Audio-GD NFB-28 (which is exactly the same as the NFB-29 except it has XLR inputs/outputs, which you do not need for TV):

http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/audio-gd-nfb-28-review-w-jot-mimby-comparison.3533/

In my opinion, the Gustard is a really excellent DAC for what you pay for it.  I don't think you will get better unless you spend a lot more (like twice as much or more).  Here is a 12 page discussion on the Gustard X20 pro:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/gustard-x20pro-dac-es9028pro.824593/

Hope this gives you a little better feeling about these products.

The Audio-GD site is legit and you have to order direct from China.  I have not ordered any of their items, but many others have and you can search the forums if you want.

The NFB-29.28 is offered in two version:

Version 1: 100-120V  AC 50/60 Hz

Version 2:  220-240V  AC 50/60 Hz

You need to pick the one that matches your local AC voltage. (You need to determine this on your own)

 

 

Blue Jean Beldon Cable:

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/shopbycable/1694A.htm

 

Big Sur Audioquest RCA cables – you just need to determine the length based on how far away the speakers are.

 

Monitor Audio Silver 10 retail for a pair is £2110 /  $2800 USD

That Oak version on ebay is a nice one and a good price.

 

The PS Audio Nuwave Phono retail new price is currently about £750 / $999 USD because PS Audio is discounting it almost 50% off.  They are discontinuing the model.  That ebay one is £600 (cheaper), so it’s up to you if it’s worth saving a little money.

 

That Hegel 200 on ebay is used. It was original retail for £3313 /  $4400 USD.

Here is a better place to buy Gustard if you are interested.  It is rarely on the used market. Make sure to get the USB version:

https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/gustard-dac-x20-pro-super-ultimate-2-x-es9028-xmos-hifi-dac-384khz-dsd-dop-decoder.html

 

If you have a laptop, you do not need a USB card.  I would try the laptop out first and see if the sound is good enough for you.  If not, you can look at getting a USB Reclocker such as the Wyred 4 Sound Recovery.  Or buy a Windows PC Desktop and an audiophile USB card, but I would try the laptop out first.

 

JRiver is media player software that can be used to play all different types of media and sound files:

https://www.jriver.com/

Thanks again for fantastic guidance auxinput. It’s all so very exciting and I can’t wait for everything to come together :)

 

I will focus on the TV setup first because my father’s TV has arrived and the satellite will be installed in 2 weeks.

 

I contacted Audio-GD about the NFD-29.28 and they sent me an order form. It seems that the brand is Chinese, is that right? Have you ordered off their website before or know anyone who has?

 

http://www.audio-gd.com/En%20audio-gd.htm

 

If all seems legit then I will go ahead and order one. I do not know any other online shop that sells them. Do you?

Do I need to tell them about AC Voltage for the UK?

 

I think I will buy the Big Sur Audioquest cables, I found them on eBay. Do I need a particular length like with the digital cable? Or is it just determined based on how far I want the speakers to reach?

I can’t seem to find any online shop that sells the Blue Jean Belden cable, do you?

 

What is the price of the Monitor Audio Silver 10, and the PS Audio NuWave Phono Converter brand new? I found both on eBay UK for what looks like good prices. Are you able to have a look for me and tell me if they look like good buys? Is there anything particular I should be asking before purchasing?

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Monitor-Audio-Silver-10-Speakers-Pair-Walnut/332406853482?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PS-Audio-NuWave-Phono-Converter-Silver/122746561273?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

 

I know I said I want to focus on TV first but I don’t want to miss out on good savings if these are good buys.

Also, I found the Hegel H200 and the Gustard DAC-X20 Pro on eBay UK too but they look like they’re being sold from new.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HEGEL-H200-Integrated-Amplifier/152733904987?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-GUSTARD-DAC-X20-PRO-HIFI-DAC-2xES9018-XMOS-USB-384KHZ-DSD64-128-256/282396178689?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

 

What are the price of both of these brand new?

 

For the Vinyl setup, I thought about it and I will not use iPod/iPhone, only laptop. So if there are no complications with this approach then I will stick to integrated amp as it is cheaper and easier. Will the Gustard still be the right DAC for me? Do I need to consider a USB card for the laptop or does that only apply to desktop (which I don't have).

 

What is JRiver? I have not heard of this software before but it sounds interesting.

 

Thanks for all the cable and setup advice, I will follow up on these in time to come. I want to get the TV stuff sorted first and then slowly (due to the wife, not budget haha) start on the Vinyl stuff :)

@laher - keep us informed your progress and any decisions that you make.  We would also love to know your opinion of any results. :)

@laher – Some more information.  PS Audio is discontinuing the Nuwave Phono Premp and selling it at a big discount (about 48% off) for $999 USD.  If you are interested, you could contact them to see about shipping to UK and to make sure it is configured internally to support your local AC voltage (either 110V or 220V):

http://www.psaudio.com/products/nuwave-phono-converter/

A good review here:

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/ps-audio-nuwave-phono-converter/?page=3

It appears that the PS audio Phono is highly configurable to match up with a lot of different turntables (maybe not all of them).  Another feature is that it has an analog-to-digital converter.  This allows you to connect it to your DAC to play the audio.  I have heard this is a very detailed sound, but maybe not quite as “analog”.  It’s just another option for you to work with.

------

This was an email I sent to another friend advising on a turntable RCA cable.  He actually bought the Equinox and says it sounds excellent as a turntable cable.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/man-this-is-frustrating

teo_audio has some very interesting thoughts on turntable cable burn-in. He says that turntable cable never burns in because the voltage levels never reach proper heights. Interesting.

Almarg also says that that it’s critical to have as low as capacitance as possible in a phono/tonearm cable. I remember reading once a long time ago that phono cables should be very small gauge (like 28awg). This could be why.

Based on that, it seems to me that one cable I would consider for this would be the Wireworld Equinox 7 RCA. It uses very small 31awg OCC copper strands. It is not quite solid-core. The strands are grouped into collections of 5 strands, which are all side-by-side (like a ribbon cable). It’s not a fully stranded cable, but it’s not fully solid-core either. It uses 10 strands for each conductor, making it a 21awg cable. The small strands give you the low capacitance (good for tonearm) and the collection for 21awg lowers the resistance and would open up the sound.  It’s important to note that the more expensive Eclipse 7 cable would not work as well because the copper strands are little bit larger 29awg.

Once again you have received great advice from auxinput.

With cables I would encourage you to start out taking a basic (budget) approach throughout.  Many quality used (or discontinued new) digital coax, RCA or XLR interconnects, speaker cables can be purchased on E-bay for reasonable cost.

As an example I have purchased Audioquest cables this way for several applications:
     VDM-3 digital coax
     Diamondback and King Cobra ICs both RCA and XLR
     Type 4 and Rocket 33 bi-wire speaker 

Other brands may be more available in the UK. 

Another approach for a good starter speaker cable is to purchase Canare 4S11 by the foot and terminate amp end single and speaker end bi-wire. A great starter cable on a budget.