Let’s say I compare the same company’s 75w into 8 amp and their 150w into 8 amp. Will I notice a difference in sound quality?
Yes. If so, why? Not because of power. If there is a difference between the 75w and 150w per channel amp can I narrow the gap or even exceed the 150w amp by using a better DAC? Nobody knows. Its a question of sound quality. Power is but one factor- and the most insignificant one at that. Also, has anyone noticed that a lower watt amp has less distortion than a higher powered one, so throwing my understanding that the same manufacturer’s higher powered amp should be superior to it’s lower powered one out the window? Often times the lower power one sounds better. Its not about power. Once you get above something like 20 to 50 watts few things matter less. The position of the volume knob. I’ll give you that one. |
Different amps perform fundamentally differently; listen for yourself if you don't believe it.
To your second question; No, you can't make a DAC confer the attributes of a better amp, and vice versa. If you want to upgrade the system as if different amp and DAC, you need a different amp and DAC. There are no shortcuts to superior systems. There may be different configurations - but not shortcuts.
Don't get hung up on distortion specs; it's a great way to build a mediocre rig. |
If you're lucky enough to reach mediocre. The worst sounding system I ever heard was all stuff that looked beautiful on paper. It was also the most money I have seen anyone spend to achieve horrid sound. One night after listening to my system a while his wife came up to me and with this astonished look on her face said, "I could listen to this all night!"
If that's what you want, drop the thing with numbers. Like a hot rock.
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I guess since this is in Tech Talk should probably give a more technical explanation why power is irrelevant.
Music is highly dynamic in nature. Sound is logarithmic in power. What this means, to go even a tiny little bit louder like say 3dB, not much at all really, requires twice the power. Twice. To go 10dB louder, which is enough to actually feel louder, takes ten times the power.
So going from 75 watts to 150 watts, even though it sounds like a lot, is only a measly 3dB. Barely noticeable. Insignificant.
Back to music is highly dynamic in nature. What this means, the vast majority of the time is spent listening to only a watt or two. If that. Theoretically, at least, the only time you are going to hear the difference that extra 75 watts makes is the occasional transient here or there. All the rest of the time its the first watt.
Because, see, amplifier power is not like horsepower. A car with a lot of horsepower, even when you're only using a fraction, barely crack the throttle, it just feels so much more effortless. You can enjoy high horsepower even without ever using it.
Amplifier power on the other hand, no such luck. There's little 50 watt tube amps that convey a greater sense of power than 150 watt solid state amps. And vice versa. (Probably. Just because I never heard one doesn't mean they can't exist.)
With amplifiers the first watt is so important one of the most famous and well-regarded amplifier designers uses it. First watt. Its so important the great reviewer Robert Harley once said, "If the first watt isn't any good, why would you want 200 more of them?"
And so on. We can get even more technical. We can get into the nuts and bolts of heat dissipation and size and parts complexity and quality. But, why? Harley nailed it.
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If there is a difference between the 75w and 150w per channel amp can I narrow the gap or even exceed the 150w amp by using a better DAC? You assume that 150W would sound better, but it might be the other way around, since you pay for larger power supply and output stage (including 2x larger heatsinks). At the same price level 75W would likely be the better sounding one, but when prices are different - who knows. They might be even designed in different classes of operation and 150W can be class D. Nothing wrong with it, but only you can decide what sounds better to you. 150W is 22% louder (on paper), but likely you will be OK with 75W. When 75W is equally good and you can use the difference to upgrade DAC it is a win-win situation. |
@kijanki I agree that it may be the other way around and I’ve heard it mentioned that this can be the case. I did my own comparison of with a 60w into 8 integrated amp that is stable down to 2ohms compared to a 225 into 8 amp, 425 into 4, and aside from the sound signature differences, I didn’t feel like one was controlling the speakers better than the other.
Granted, there were other differences as the lower powered amp was class AB vs class D for the higher powered one, but both seemed to have the type of parts and engineering necessary to drive moderately difficult speakers (LS50 and the Unifi UB5) for a lesser amp.
For the integrated amp, I think most of the improvements are DAC based up the range , since they seem to share, from what I can tell, mainly the same amplification tech.
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will sound different - many reasons why, too many to enumerate
power ratings are very rough guides... not informative beyond 150 more than 50 more than 10 - depends on type of amp too
re- dac ... no |
Absolute power is only one of the dimensions that matter: obviously, if you are trying to drive a difficult speaker load at say 80db efficiency, a lot of power is required. Conversely if you are driving 110db horn speakers a humble 2A3 valve amp pushing out 2-3 W is plenty sufficient. Generally bigger power means bigger power transformers and consequently greater emission of EMI, the shielding in other words gets more challenging.
Where it really gets interesting: a clean renderer and DAC, i.e. units with a very low noise floor can increase the perceived loudness. Since the amp has to amplify only clean signal rather than a lot of grunge on top, the perceived result appears louder. NB: there is no increase in power, just perception. |
I have no idea what you’re running but a well implemented purifi or Ncore class D amps will better most AB amps in noise except the Benchmark AHB2. Your DAC, even ones that don’t measure state of the art should have less noise than good SS amps. I wouldn’t worry about the watts to much unless your speakers need more power. I have 500w class D doing bass and 2x250 W class D on mid and tweeter in an active speaker and I never have any problem with noise. |
@djones51 it was a Purifi compared to a Hegel H90. Great clarity/quickness with the Purifi, but didn’t notice any more ‘control’ of the woofers from one vs the other.
Have you compared an AHB2 with your class D amps? |
No never had the Benchmark amp. Not sure what you mean by control of the woofers, what speakers. |
I tested them against two bookshelf’s - LS50 and Unifi UB5, since these are supposed to be somewhat ‘hard to drive’
I just meant bass response |
cd45123, I had class D amp and currently have AHB2. Both have excellent bass control but AHB2 has a little bit better extension. I cannot explain it, since on paper it is only few Hz difference (5Hz vs 0.1Hz), but it is audible (same source, speakers, room).
From the point of membrane damping output impedance of the amp has very little effect on it and anything above DF=15 should be fine.
AHB2 - is a wonderful amp - dynamic and clean, but don't expect "warm" sound. It was designed to be accurate.
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Excellent bass response down to about 35hz slight roll off to 24hz then it drops off. My active speakers use Pascal Class D amps. The Benchmark is very hard to beat in clean accurate amplification if I ever go back to passive speakers it's the first one I'd look at but I don't see me ever going back but never say never. |
I went from a 225 watt anthem to a 75 watt Belles and the belles sounds better.
I went from a Classe CA-150 to Classe CA-200 and the 200 was better.
I went from an Adcom 545 to 535 and the 535 sounded better.
No way to tell. If all other things are equal, more watts is most of the time better. I’d rather have 100 clean watts with great current than 1000 watts with no current.
Amps and Dacs are different so like Doug said, no shortcuts. I.e. $50k speakers connected to a $200 receiver isn’t going to sound as good as a $5k pair of speakers connected to a $5k integrated.
Put another way, michelin pilot cups on a toyota camry isn’t going to make it handle like a porsche |
