You might want to have a chat with David at Hammertone Audio who has tried the puritas in many many different arms. I would personally not choose a Reed and i am pretty sure David's best result (which is quite something i gather) is with the Kuzma 4 point. It's worth getting the right arm as the Puritas is a pretty amazing cart. The 12" Schick and custom heavy mass Audio Origami would be other viable options. Happy hunting ! |
I don't understand your line of reasoning. You seem to be saying that Koetsu's are both overpriced and over-rated, and yet you may purchase one of their very expensive options, regardless. On the other hand, you seem to be reluctant to accept the possibility that the alternative Allnic Puritas could possibly have merit, because of its lesser cost.
I have a Koetsu Urushi and like it very much, but I would not go higher in the Koetsu model line if I were to upgrade, because I think the law of diminishing returns sets in rapidly as price rises logarithmically. In this case, I will only say that the Reed tonearm is very very good and probably comparable in price to the OL Enterprise. I have heard the Allnic Puritas at shows and liked it very much. You cannot go wrong with either tonearm mated to the Allnic. On the other hand, I won't dismiss the Koetsu Coralstone DS, just because it may cost a bundle and will no doubt be ridiculed by some others who inhabit this website. I have never heard it. In fact, you have heard its near relative, so you alone should decide whether the Coralstone version of the DS might please you. Just keep in mind that cost is not the final arbiter of excellence. |
Thanks Lotus for your input.
You would not match Allnic with Reed but it seems that you have such a setup. Does it not work properly? |
All I can say is I heard the Allnic Puritas in a 12-inch Reed on Vetterone's The Beat direct-drive turntable, far into the late evening at the RMAF two years ago. We were comparing it to the SoundSmith Sussuro, riding in a second Reed tonearm. The sound quality was very high in both cases. I am sure Hammertone is a fine company, but they are in business to sell what they sell. Do you think their lack of enthusiasm for the Reed could have anything to do with whether or not they are dealers? (I do.) |
I don't think Hammertone are in the business of selling tonearms so they have no vested interest. David is just passionate about showing the Puritas in the best possible light. Yes, it can work in the Reed but some people report problems with sibilance. Regardless, there are better arms for it as David's painstaking research has shown. In point of fact I actually sell Reed here in the UK but i am just trying to pass on the correct information to help out. |
All good points. I am sure David has done much more work on this subject than I.
I would only comment that the etiology of "sibilance" is one of the most vexing among problems that occur in vinyl audio reproduction. (Meaning, there are many causes.) One of the last elements in the equation that I would indict is the tonearm, per se. VTA, VTF, azimuth adjustment, the cartridge, the LP, the phono stage, all would come ahead of some intrinsic deficiency of the tonearm design as a cause of sibilance, so long as we limit the discussion to really well designed and well built ones. |
Have had both carts in my system so maybe I can add something other than speculation. I have to say, interesting if not odd cart choices. I don't think you could have two carts (Puritas and Koetsu) that could be much further apart on the sound spectrum. One is very energetic and one very smooth. Both have great detail retrieval but those details are presented in two very different ways.
The Puritas sounds very good on a 12" hardwood Reed arm. No sibilance. Would it sound better on a heavier arm? Maybe, as the Puritas is rather stiffly suspended. I did try a Puritas on a Fidelity Research 66 arm which is high mass. The sound was different but I would not say it was particularly better overall than the Reed.
The Coralstone was very happy on the FR 66. I mean REALLY happy. |
I have Coralstone (regular version) on FR64s which works very well. I tried Coralstone on Reed3Q (22g effective mass) and TW Raven AC-1 and it was not a good combination, rather bland and uninspiring. TW also does not recommend using Koetsu with its table when I talked to TW initially before buying TW. Whether it was synergy, personal preference or whatever, but I have to agree that the above combination did not really work. Coralstone sounded much better with FR64s and Micro Seiki table.Unfortunately I did not have a chance to try FR64s with Koetsu and TW so I can't tell you if it was the arm, the table or both that did not work with Koetsu. |
Thank you for the input.
I heard that Koetsu works very good with Fidelity Research tonearms, but... these arms have their age... and I would like to avoid purchasing used arm as we never know the actual condition of such arm.
From current production arm it is hard to find something comparable.
I got another recommendation of cartridge from the person with Raven turntable and extensive experience with Koetsu cartridges. It is Kondo IO-M cart with (mandatory) KSL stepu-up. All strenghts of Koetsu without their flaws. I suppose that arm matching for Kondo IO-M would be easier than for Koetsu (Reed for example).
What do you think? |
---> Vetterone
BTW I seen that you have both 3P and 3Q tonearm - could you kindly tell something more about comparision of these two arms (with Allnic Puritas especially)?
As for the features I really do not need a laser guide to set azimuth. I have other and better way to set is, so this future we can ommit. |
The 2A is the same as a 3P without the laser assist. The 3P has a different
bearing system that gives a little more air and refinement to the sound on most carts. The 3P has azimuth adjustment on the fly which I find handy. |
I think you meant to say the 2A is the same as the 3Q without the laser assist. Having demonstrated the 3P at the recent Axpona show here I agree with your remarks on it. A joy to set up. I ran the Feickert software on the system once set up and got phase error down to 4 degrees at 1 kHz, and with the Vendetta the sound was acceptable :-)
It would be interesting to compare some of the cartridges mentioned here on the 4Point and the 3P.
Dealer disclosure. |
@Lew, I take your comments about the etiology of sibilance and do indeed agree with them. They are also bold comments and hint at a certain set of assumptions and invite me to erect a defense concerning my own abilites to understand, setup and debug a problematic turntable setup. I will spare you justificatory tedium though and just state very clearly that my comments and findings still firmly stand.
Apart from anything else, I am not the only one to have experienced unfixable sibilance issues with 3p 10.5" and 12". Hammertone also have 4 reed tonearms on site I believe but it does not even feature on their top recommended arms for the Puritas. As I said before, the Kuzma is out in front by some margin but then its a very very good arm with extremely good bearings which the Puritas likes, so hardly surprising. Down the cheaper end, Stefano also gets a very good result with the Schick (I have one on order):
http://twogoodears.blogspot.ca/search?q=allnic
None of this is speculation by the way and you may well get a good result with a Reed as it does seem to vary from person to speron (maybe the armboard/turntable is a factor). Note that I am not denouncing the Reed. It's a lovely arm and I use one myself. Just trying to be helpful.
@Suteetat, Thomas does not like Koetsus full stop (SPU Royal N is his cup of tea) and they do not work well in his 10.5 raven arm. AFAIK Jess C feels the same way. As far as I know though, there is no reason not to run with with a more suitable arm on a Raven deck. |
Dear Przemek: Could you list your system?, it could help to all of us to know which is your current cartridge/tonearm and phono stage. I don't know if you still use Jadis electronics or Thiel SS2 but to know where that new cartridge and how will be surrounded IMHO helps a lot to each one advise.
Allnic and Koetsu are only two of several cartridge alternatives, there are cartridges that beats or could be beated by them but depends how those cartridges are surrounded and obviously your music sound priorities.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Hello!
Yes, please:
I still use Jadis JP80MC 25th Anniversary preamplifier with build in MC/MM phonostage and dedicated JA80 25th Anniversary power amplifiers.
As for loudspeaker I am using very beloved Franco Serblin Ktema and found them fantastic with Jadis!
After many years of break I am building analog rig from scratches.
So at the moment I just ordered Raven AC turntable with battery supply and feet sourced from Black Night.
At the moment no arm and no cartridge :-)
Good point - I can choose whatever I want.
At the moment I would like to utilize MC phono section of Jadis preamp - but it will work for cartridges >0.3mV or MM section with SUT.
I found that Jadis preamp works better rather with SUT and MM input.
I like tonearms with ebony armwand so I searched Artemis Labs, Schroeder (too long waiting time!), Reed and new interesting Primary Control arm (no reviews yet!).
I am considering ending with two arms and one cartridge suitable more for rock music (Lyra Atlas?) and second one for more euphonic jazz and classical listening (Kondo, Koetsu?)
As I wrote before I appreciate old classic tonearm like FR, but heaving no good source I would prefer current production tonearms.
Any suggestions would be warm welcome. |
Dear Milimetr: Yes, you are right the Jadis performs better through its MM input but in both ways: MC or MM fails/a little short on the bass management.
Even that your lovely speakers can't go lower than 26hz ( I don't know its db deviation at that frequency. ) there is information recorded below that speaker bass spec and certainly the cartridge can retrieval if it's surrounded by the system with that hability. We have to remember that music is formed by notes and harmonics.
As important as is the tonearm to mate any cartridge the phono stage is critical and always makes a difference for the better or worst depends on the phono stage quality level performance.
As a music lover and an audiophile and through my experiences, with " hundred " of different audio systems, IMHO what determine the main differences on quality performance between different audio systems is the audio system owns habilities to play/works in near " perfect " way the bass frequency range, its bass management. Electronics are very important to fulfil that criterion. Of course that speaker/room are important too but speakers can reproduce what the other system links send it to the speakers.
IMHO and due that seems to me that you want a first rate analog performance level you should contemplate as an option a better phonolinepreamp that could make clear justice to your future analog rig.
No one cartridge can shows its " glorious " if through the phono stage this unit is adding and loosing cartridge signal information: I think we need here not only accuracy but neutrality too, to leave the music flow with its natural color and natural " emotions ". Don't you think?
About wood tonearm wand you can choose not only the Schroeder you mentioned but the Talea or Da Vinci to name other options.
Cartridges?, other that the ones you name it exist other top contenders that can fulfil your needs/priorities with different kind of music: Ortofon, VdH, Clearaudio, Da Vinci, Benz Micro, Dynavector, etc, etc.
Btw, price is not the important factor but quality performance level. Not always the more expensive performs better.
Just by curiosity. With those several top graded TT options out there what do you " move " to the Raven's alternative?
Have a good and happy " hunting ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Lotus, I am not sure what you don't agree with. If you mean to say that you don't agree that the Reed 3P when mated with the Puritas can often result in sibilance, then I of course yield to your superior experience with that combo, of which I have none. If there are real experiential data to support your contention regarding the mating of this particular tonearm with this particular cartridge, a pattern that has repeated itself, so be it.
If you disagree that there are many causes of sibilance, many or most having nothing to do with the choice of tonearm, so long as the tonearm is a "good" one, which was the real point of my post, then that is another matter but not one of earth-shattering importance. We can still occupy the same universe. |
Dear Milimetr: I forgot about Transfiguration cartridge option, look for the Phoenix model. IMHO this cartridge has real rythmum.
As you can see there are several cartridge alternatives .
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Lyra Atlas works beautifully with my Reed 3Q and TW. For me, it has enough bass and slam to satisfy my occasional pop/rock listening but I tend to listen to mostly classical, opera, vocal music, piano and the like. I know some of my friends prefer Graham over Reed. You definitely will get more bass and slam for rock with Graham but I just could not get the same magic in the mid range with Graham as I could with Reed. After playing around with the new Graham 12 inch arm for almost a year, I gave up and sold it to a friend of mine. One arm that perhaps could rival Graham for bass and have mid range that would be closer to Reed that I heard recently is Thales Simplicity. It was quite impressive on TW Raven One with Miyajima Kansui. However, I only heard it briefly at my local dealer. I plan to listen to it more carefully in my system may be in the next 3-4 months but I am a bit too busy right now doing other things with my system so I will wait awhile until my system is a bit more settled before trying auditioning Thales. |
Lotus, I heard Koetsu Onyx with TW Raven 10.5 arm/Raven One and it was just ok . I also tried Coralstone with Reed 3Q and Raven AC-1 and I was not impressed. Coralstone really is working much much better on my FR64s with Micro Seiki table. However, I don't have an arm board for FR 64s for TW so I don't know how Koetsu/FR combination would be with TW. |
Thank you very much for the input.
I know Graham tonearm and do not like them much.
Do you have any comparison between Reed 3Q vs. Reed 3P.
I heard that 3P is more airy and extended on top but I am curious if 3P unipivot design will be stable enough and prone against wobbling in complex orchestral music compared to gimbal 3Q design. |
Hi Suteetat, thanks for sharing. That's a shame that you haven't been able to try Koetsu/FR on the TW. I have not heard of many owners using Koetsu with TW. let me know if you ever manage to make or source an armboard and give it a go. BTW: a friend here in the UK uses the Simplicity on an AC and loves it. He changed to it from the Phantom. He runs an A90 predominantly.
FWIW: I am mainly using an Orpheus in my Reed at the moment(for personal listening). It works very well especially since I upgraded the TT to AC3 from AC1 which has improved dynamics a lot. Beforehand it was perhaps just a touch too polite with just one motor.
@Lewm, no problems Lew, as I mentioned, i agree with what you said. |
I owned a Raven AC3 and now a BN. I use currently a Lyra Titan I with a
Schroder SQ. I have no desire to upgrade as it is a perfect match with my
phono the Thoress / TW. I also use mostly the Allaerts MC2 Finish with a
Pass XP25. Both setups are amazing and I am done looking for quite a
long time. That is major considering I owned several arms and cartridges
and nothing was ever perfect.
Phono stage is critical with cartridge matching and if you heard a cartridge
perform badly I doubt it is the turntable if the turntable does its job.
Tonearms of course need to match well with the arm.
I owned a Jade for a while and loved it. I was still on the merry go round
then and sold it due to lack of dynamics compared to some others. The
Allaerts easily betters it but the extremely low output demands a dead quiet
phono stage with a lot of gain. A solid state phono would be best. My
Pass for example. As for Tonearms, the best match I had at the time was
the Ikeda 12 inch. A variation of the FR go figure.
I loaned Jeff C my Jade years ago and he ended up buying one for his AC.
So the rumors of what Jeff feels about it don't add up. Back then he used it
with a Dynavector arm. I don't know now what he is using but I know he
loved it then. The Raven table has no bearing on the Koetsu sound. Yes to
the arm and again the phono. I think he used the Jade then with the high
gain version of a Tron with SUT.
TW loves a very alive sound, which is not a Koetsu forte. I don't see him
wanting one. Jeff on the other hand has his own sonic priorities and he
bought a Jade years ago although he wasn't a dealer.
Now for my personal opinion based on your system I would do either of 2
things. An Allaerts same as mine or better on a Raven 10.5 arm. It has the
some of the magic of Koetsu and beautiful detail and bass. But it will need
to match well with your phono which I feel is a risk.
The other is the Lyra Atlas with a Schroder. I am very curious to try that
myself. And the new Schroder LT seems very interesting. I have a strong
hunch it will have tremendous synergy with your Jadis. It is a medium
output MC which will also be less troubling.
In the end, please be ready to add your phono stage into the equation. I
currently have 2. During my merry go round time, I tested cartridges with
several phono stages and arms. I owned quite a few great ones, including
a preamp with a built in phono. Every cartridge sounded very different
depending on the phono stage. |
Thank you very much for your input.
When I choosed the Raven AC I was considering BN turntable as well. Unfortunately I found them way too expensive and a bit too large for my system rack. When compared side by side stock Raven AC with Raven BN I found BN more detailed, more extended on top, more airy, simply better.
Then I have tried battery PSU from BN with Raven AC and found that this PSU has great contribution to BN sound.
So I decided to order Raven AC with upgraded battery PSU and feets from BN.
Now TW introduced three pulley integrated motor designed for Raven AC similar to those from BN.
Now after introducing Raven AC Anniversary turntable you can even upgrade stock AC to copper platter.
My point is that now a 95% of BN performance can be obtained for about 70% or the costs of original BN and this can be done step by step not at once.
OK. But this is only digression.
Back to the topic.
I have a possibility to make side by side comparison of Thores phonostage with Jadis JP80MC build in phoo stage.
Thoress is sonically better. Have much more adjustments flexibility and so on. However in sonic department there was no night and day difference especially when Jadis phono was paired with SUT and used with MM input.
As for the Schroeder tonearm it is very interestin option. I admire the Schroeder engineering, but there is definitely a problem with avaliability. The waiting time for their SQ tonearm was about a year or more!
It is hard to imagine for me these days. If there is such large customer demands, the smart manufacturer expandes their production capabilities not ask a buyer to wait so long. I do not know how the things going with LT tonearm.
The Frank designed Artemis Labs tonearm was much more obtainable, but heard that will be no longer offered by Artemis Labs.
As for the Allartes cartridge it is very interesting option and worth exploring.
Did you compared them with Atlas Lyra or Allnic Puritas? |
Milimetr,
I enjoyed your digression. I have owned my BN since it came out. The Raven Anniversary is gorgeous and I would myself have gone that way just due to the ergonomics.
The battery PSU is a huge improvement. I have compared them side by side in my system. And the BN difference to the original AC is as you described.
Schroder is a piece of work. He comes from the watch industry which I know professionally. Quite a few brands limit production to create demand. Yes it is manual labor, yes it takes time. But Tonearms for $10K and where is the gold?
The problem is the Schroder Lyra match is something special. I own it now for years. You can see tons of posts by me here. I also have heard several setups with Lyras on Scroder arms and always have been impressed. I stopped changing arms before the latest round of wood arm copy cats came out. They might be good. The other idea which might be great is the Kuzma , Atlas combination. Lyra puts out a lot of energy and needs an arm that can handle it. And the Schroder is very difficult to set up. And, I am being nice in saying that, as very is based on years of experience.
I have never tried the Atlas or Allnic. But I owned a few Koetsus, Benz, Air Tight, VdH, Dynavector, and more. I just don't find a need to compare, when I find nothing lacking in my front end. If I had just 1 cartridge arm combination, then I probably would get back to searching. it is just that different music sounds different depending on the cartridge/arm used. not necessarily better, but more to the mood I am in.
I would never buy a cartridge from someone who rebrands it unless absolutely unique.
Lyra, Ortofon, Koetsu (but they are too delicate for the amount of money) and Dynavector are not equipment manufacturers first. They are primarily in the cartridge business. Some of the boutique brands are excellent as well as that is all they do. I just wouldn't buy a watch made by Porsche. Even though it might be excellent. I would much rather get a Breitling since that is what they do. But, I would consider some of the more limited production watches such as A. Lange etc. |
Sorry to be late to the party, but I just bought a KRSP with Diamond Cantilever, and now have 41 hours on it.
I am using a Trans-Fi linear air bearing tonearm. Not the most expensive, certainly not the most chic, but highly functional. I like to use extra brass weights to manipulate arm mass and resonance, for which the arm is uniquely suited. Tracking seems very good, the combination only coming adrift during the organ bass tremolo on Power & Glory (M&K 114).
So far, I like the cartridge very much, worth every penny and more: an alloy of gold and silver, if you will. But then I like to play with a soldering iron to sort out primary and secondary impedances (Koetsu transformer), and I only use Vishay VAR resistors. I am still sorting out what I am hearing and why, so I have no considered opinions as yet. I suppose that is a warning of sorts; if you want to plug and play, you may not get these results.
A few preliminary observations, subject to change. The immediately obvious strengths of the cartridge seem to be low surface noise, large dynamic range, vertical transients, and purity. The highs are uniquely pure. A little less obvious was that pizzicato sounds like a plucked string, and a piano sounds like a struck string. I think this may be evidence of what some call "harmonic coherence". Both are reproduced well, although no recording has yet reproduced the percussive leading edge of the (real) piano upstairs. But then, my ownership is young, and many parameters need examination. Wish me luck.
A note on over-brightness: if you don't hear it on Bach's violin concerti, or on Barber's Adagio for Strings, or Arvo Part's Fratres, and none of your intimates do either, it isn't there. |
Terry,
Enjoy! Wonderful cartridge. Be careful with it as they are delicate. Please don't use any liquid based stylus cleaners. The fluid can move. Up the cantilever and then......
Personal experience. Nothing like the highs of a Koetsu. |
Hello Dgad.
Thanks for your note. In my ignorance, I thought that a solid diamond cantilever would preclude alcohol wicking up to the internals; after all, there is no hollow boron tube. Alcohol used carefully, of course.
I also use a painter's brush and ZeroStat for fluff, but what to use for vinyl buildup, if not alcohol? Have you experience with an ultrasonic stylus cleaner? Linn used to recommend these, I believe.
Thanks!
Terry |
The fluid can damage the suspension & dry it out. Be careful is all. Use a tiny drop if any on a brush that only touches the stylus. Check here for wat people do. |
dgad, I bet i am going off thread here and maybe I should email you offline. I have a Lyra Atlas using a TriPlanar (current version 10.5 inch) into a Nagra VPS/VFS. I do have a Schroeder LT on order....
I also own and LOVE my Allaerts MC2 Finish...but have never quite found a phono preamp it loved. I do have a EAR MC4 SUT which definitely wakes it up into my Nagra VPS.
The Pass XP25 is interesting to me...any comments? Part of me wants the Lyra/Schroeder....the other the Allaerts and ??? |
Off line is fine. A chat would be more in order, I can give you my full experience and you can take it from there. If you get the LT I want to come over. That is the only arm that has me curious.
In a nut shell I love my Pass. But it took time. Amazing bass on the Pass. Simply amazing. |
