Aesthetix Romulus Signature Upgrade Worth the $3,000 ?

Grannyring, I'm just saying you really didn't hear what that cd player could do if you didn't hear it with a transport. Obviously you have heard the Luxman with a separate transport. The best Jeff

Hi Bill,
I don't  feel you statement  is ridiculous  by any measure,  however it is subjective  by its  very nature.  No question
You find the Luxman player  is better than any others you have  had  in  your  system. How can I dispute that? However  at the end of the day  it's  just one man's  opinion. That's  why I mentioned Germanboxers, he had the same Luxman but sold  it when  he found  something he felt  was better.  
This is normal  audiophile  behavior,  people  move on to  something else and there's  always  differing  impressions on any and all components. Obviously  a person  can declare  something  "the best they've heard", it just is an individual  assessment rather than an universal declaration. I'd  say that as much as you prefer the Luxman,  someone else  would prefer the Romulus over the Luxman. There is never unanimous concensesus with audio components. 
Charles, 

Sorry meant to  write consensus.

Charles, FYI, with the new format you should be able to edit your posts within 30 minutes of when they are submitted, even if someone has posted in the thread subsequently, by clicking the icon that looks like a gear in the upper right corner of the post.

Best regards,
-- Al

If the Luxman is a cd player then I recant everything I've said.

Al,
Thanks for the tip.
Charles, 

Grannyring, does the luxman have a volume control? 

Well the popular opinion here is the transport in the Romulus is lousy! , does the Pandora eclipse have optional volume control? 

Yes the Pandora has an optional volume control.

I can honestly say when we heard the latest Romulus CD eclipse
with the Matching Aesthetix Calypso Sig Eclipse pre through the Atlas Sig Eclipse Power amp with all stock power cords sitting on HRS Platforms All AQ into Vandersteen 7s
 There was not too much I or Designer JW would of wanted to Fiddle with.
 Best JohnnyR

He Luxman does not have a volume control. 

I did did hear the Romulus with both a cheap Sony CD player as a transport and and older CEC belt drive transport. Very slight difference and I would say the CEC made the sound a tad smoother. Not day and night to be sure. 

I suppose if one thinks their Rotel system sounds as good as a well matched $50,000 system, then this hobby is certainly subjective with no absolutes. Yes, subjectivity carries with it the fact that some cannot hear differences, don't even care about differences,  and cannot discern the more subtle musical nuances. All of these realities exist within the subjective territory. 

Meant to type "the" Luxman not "he". Seems you cannot edit once the post is 30 minutes old. 

I bet the Eclipse version is outstanding as I found the simple upgrades I performed to the stock unit to be a nice step up. I just wish these upgrades were more affordable from the manufacturer. 

High end audio pricing has really gotten out of hand and unreasonable IMHO. Reasonable buys can be had on used gear for sure. Some new gear is priced reasonably, but far to much of it is priced ridiculously high in my opinion. Some of it is the small market and demand, some of it is greed, and some of it is desperation in an attempt to survive. 

I wouldn't say the transport in the Romulus is "lousy" just that you might find one that sounds slightly better.

Grannyring your right the prices for audio have gone up to the roof tops. It appears that the high end market starts at 10,000.00. Being a shrinking market they feel they rather sell a few than a lot at cheaper prices.

JWM, that is true. We are in a tough spot as the gear and hobby we love so much is priced so very high. Not all the time, but too much of the time. 

Forgot to mention that even the  high end, boutique parts market is priced out of sight. I can build gear that sounds as good as gear selling for 10x the price, but it is not cheap for me to build with top quality boutique parts. Some don't believe in these boutique parts, but I have come to know many can make a substantial improvement. 

No no reason for a capacitor to cost $120 or more etc....

Seems I cannot edit even 10 seconds after posting. The edit function is not working. 

Jwm,

When you say the high-end market starts at 10k I agree with you. 

No no reason for a capacitor to cost $120 or more etc....

How about demand exceeds supply?

bunch of whiners..
laugh with me..
but seriously..golden days are here NOW
Van Alstine $ 500 phono pre, Audible Illusions Pre, UK or VPI table for a grand. Decent cart for $500, any number of amps..lets say quicksilver, add a $2 K pair of NEW Maggies or steens some cables...THAT is high end..

and IF you think you can build better caps, R, coils, transformers for a LOT less..have at it.....lay it down....

BTW saw Pink Martini live last nite.....the REAL thing is so so good !

Some good values do exist and you mentioned them. However, a great many others fit my description. I cannot build a car, but I can can buy a Scion for the price of some high end dac's and amps. 

I cannot build a wave runner, snowmobile, motorcycle, computer, complete kitchen appliance set up, high end washer & dryer combo, but can buy these for less than the cost of many  single high end pieces of gear. 

Demand does not outpace supply on these boutique parts. The market is very small and some manufacturers just price as high as they can to sell the relatively few buyers. 

It is just too bad the market is not bigger. 

Really hard and most likely impossible to state where high end begins. I have owned Van Alstine and Quicksilver gear and they were pretry good really. 

One observation I've had with High End is there isn't a linear relationship with cost and performance. Some expensive products sounds  sublime and some are decidedly  underwhelming. The first step is to know your  goal and what type of sound you really desire. This is what causes the many variables we encounter. What sounds better,a Kondo SET or a Soulution 700 series amplifier? See what I mean,  no right answer, just depends on an individual's taste. .
Charles, 

there are less than 20 labor hours in final assy of a Scion and they sell hundreds of thousands of units..
hi end audio is often Aerospace grade parts, engineering, etc. Jim White not only knows what a Faraday cage is but how to use it to manage RF...for example...
look at Aesthetix operating with about ten employees in VERY high cost CA...small wonder we can afford anything they make.
go pick on somebody who really is skimming cream..

Grannyring,  which model apprentice stand are you referring to for the Romulus? 

Tomic601, we agree. You are making my very point. Our hobby has so few that our prices are so crazy high. We disagree on the parts being aerospace as the boards are filled with common parts etc...the type of parts found on the boards in a Scion. The whole CD transport is cheaply built, the parts used are common for the most part.

As for the $3000 cost for the upgrade, well we all know that is just plain nuts. I can buy a brand new highly rated dac that sounds as good for that kind of money like a Yamamoto. Yes I am using this as an example of audio ridiculousness. You are obviously a big fan of the designer and perhaps that clouds your ability to see the plain facts. $3000 for 4 resistors, a handful of capacitors, footers and a different digital board. Oh my. 

This is the Star Sound stand I am talking about. I purchased the coupling discs from Adona as they were more reasonably priced. Eden sound also makes nice ones for reasonable cost. 

http://www.starsoundaudio.com/ComponentPlatformsDetail.php?SP-SA-103-3-SA-103-4-10

Thanks! for sharing- grannyring.

we are getting closer..I am a big fan of Jim White but IF he sits on his A and does not do MQA I will move...quickly.
What you and many others ignore and what is VERY well understood in aerospace is that spreading development costs as you zeroed out over just a few units can equal the parts cost. The one time engineering cost to implement the new digital FPGA board including DSD and custom filters is part of the $3 K...
Now there MIGHT be $3 K DACS that can compete with a Pandora SIG, but I have not heard them...maybe I should...
BTW there are many common components in aerospace, application and tols change. yes there are unique parts and when there are, they are VERY expensive.

Tomic601,
I'm very familiar with the Romulus Signature and the Eclipse version with the Stealth capacitors. The Eclipse is a clear sonic upgrade. The Yamamoto can't compete with the Romulus in terms of  flexibility and format options,  as it's strictly Red Book exclusively. In terms of sound quality and natural musicality and engagement, Grannyring is on the mark.  The Eclipse  and the Yamamoto DAC provide superb Red Book playback. Both products  are noticeably improved when placed on an Apprentice platform based on my listening sessions. I heard both with the PS Audio PWT which is better than the Romulus internal transport. Full disclosure,  the Yamamoto  is  mine and has Duelund CAST output capacitors and a Synergistic Research fuse in place. 
Charles, 

Tomic, I do understand your point being in innovation & product development. Yes it is part of the cost and spread out over a relatively few units unfortunately. Good point. 

Charles, on Red Book CD spinning the Yammy is a great value and to my ears competes with many bigger dollar units.  You could combine it with a nice Emperical Audio Offramp for great computer audio also. 

As I stated in my first post in this thread, I tend to agree that the cost to upgrade the Romulus to Signature status is on the high side; however I bought my std unit used with the intent to do the upgrade since dsd playback capability was/is very important to me.  With the total cash outlay I have in my unit, given the price I paid for it used plus the upgrade cost, I'm more than happy with my total cost. 

IMHO Jim White is one of the best with respect to digital playback design. I am extremely disappointed that the Signature version still won't do dsd via its spdif inputs despite it still being marketed as having that capability!!  In correspondence with Jim a year ago about this issue he indicated that this feature would indeed become operational, but to my knowledge it is not (recent query to customer service about this remains unanswered). 

During our correspondence Jim asked what other features I'd like to see; I told him that adding I2S input would be great. 

I should make a comment here on the wonderful Star Sound Apprentice stand. I use the less expensive Adona coupling discs and they may not extract the very best performance from these stands. I just am not sure.  I will try the Star Sound coupling discs and see if they make any difference. Just a caution to those reading this thread. 

great thread...do love the civil axchange

frueidian spelling error..

exchange..
ha

I'll also state that the Romulus Eclipse  and Yamamoto placed in well configured systems are very competitive  with high quality turntables in regard to  musical involvement and organic character. Some analog setups are in fact  analytical in presentation and actually  less involving  and  satisfying than these two digital  sources. My point is that both of them do justice to the music. 
Charles, 

what model Yamamoto ?
I would also need to spend a significant sum on a Niagiara class SE cables ( DAC to PRE)...
i have about 2 K redbook Cd's so for grins this might be fun..

anybody have one in Seattle ???? Might be fun to compare head to head vs. Pandora SIG..

I have a nice bottle of Freemark Abbey to skew the blind A/ B..or enable it...

Tomic601,
There are two Yamamoto DACs,  mine and Grannyring's  are  solid state(YDA-01a) and there's also a tube version(YDA-01b). Both were reviewed and compared in a 6 Moons comprehensive writeup. 

Off topic for a moment, The Seattle  Seahawks are making a game of this. I have to admire their heart. Gap is down to 10 points. 

Same thing, the Gold Lion select tubes from Upscale Audio. These tubes are even more important and you want the quietest tubes of the bunch. 

thx..why did you go SS vs. tube on the Yamamoto ?

Generally speaking I'm much more partial to tubes than transistors,  however there are exceptions sometimes. I was initially going to buy the tubed Yamamoto. The Distributor  ((also a tube guy) heard  both versions and surprisingly the overall sound was very similar. The subsequent 6 Moons review comparing them confirmed that close overlap  (though not identical ) both are organic, dynamic and exceptionally musically engaging. 

No surprise really when you consider that the designer is noted for his SET amplifiers. He built the DAC on same prinçiples, avoid negative feedback and use simple circuit philosophy which  he believes leads to  a natural sound character.  Knowing this mindset ànd the Distributor and reviewer ilistening impressions  plus the SS version is 500.00 less than the tube DAC. I felt comfortable with choosing the SS DAC. It is an  excellent match with my DHT  tubed components,  naturalness is its innate character. 
Charles, 

OP-

did you get the upgrade?

The PWT is essentially unchanged, any vintage is fine. 
Charles, 

Okay, so I want to thank everyone for jumping in on this thread, it has been fun and beneficial! But, we take a turn. I have sold my Romulus and am getting a Pandora Signature in its' place. I will initially use my Oppo 105 bluray player and a Kubala Expression rca digital cable to drive it but that is short term. I've seen here that the PS Audio PWT is a major improvement over the captive Romulus drive, what other transports have been used with success? Also digital cables? Everyone thanks in advance and have a great weekend!

There seems to be a bit of confusion in this thread about DSD in the Eclipse versions of Romulus and Pandora.  DSD64 and DSD128 over USB are included in both the Signature and Eclipse versions of Pandora and Romulus.  This is performed as DoP, there is no conversion to PCM.  When receiving DSD, either "DSD1" (for DSD64) or "DSD2" (for DSD128) will be shown on the front panel display, indicating the DSD is being correctly recognized and decoded.
Additionally, Signature and Eclipse versions can accept up to 384KHz PCM over USB.

Thanks to everyone on this thread for their contributions and support of Aesthetix!
Jim WhiteAesthetix