Peter, forgot to mention the Acme outlet is cryo'd.
Geoff
Geoff
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Geoff, An outlet treated with special sauce :-) Don't know about this one. Pricing seem reasonable. I think we have a pretty good selection of outlets for the test - a real high$ has been suggested, make TBD, Whart has put up $50 for starting a SOAC (Super Outlet Action Committee) - let's see if he gets any donors. Good Listening Peter |
Richard, Thank you for the recognition, it is greatly appreciated. As far as the AC plugs - I think that if the AC outlet test is to be meaningful then the "correct" AC plug has to be used as well, the outlet is only half of the connection point, the plug being the other half, which is why I have selected the exact same level of plug on the off the shelf outlets. On the Audio Grade outlets I have asked the suppliers of them what AC plug they recommend for best performance of their outlet, and I have got an answer form all but the supplier of the Teslaplex - but a friend of mine have some power cords form Synergistic from which I will "borrow" a plug. Good Listening Peter |
Well first I also applaud Peter for his willingness to see if his beliefs actually hold true in application. I respect that a great deal (not that anyone cares!). As has been mentioned, in my experience many of the cheapos, even to the plain hospital grade, sound very similar and without some pretty long exposure to familiar music may be harder to discern than the more specialized devices. maybe this is due to difference coatings (Rhodium etc)? Another factor I think is important here is you may want to consider using the same connectors throughout. If not you then run the risk of hearing the connectors rather than the outlets as they also sound different. Even within brands they sound different and use different platings. Rhodium plugs on Rhodium outlets are going to sound different than Brass on Brass etc. Many thanks for your time, efforts and financial investment. Look forward to following the process. |
Hi Peter, another relatively cheap, but said to be good sounding outlet is the maestro. It is used in an extremely expensive range of mains conditioner called Tripoint. I think it is very important to try the outlets that are said to sound great. The cheap non audiophile ones will most likely be much the same as each other. In my experience sounding metallic, shut in, and nasty in the treble for whatever reason when compared to good audiophile outlets. Surely the point is to show why an audiophile would/should bother changing outlets? If some effort to audition "good" sounding ones is not put in we may miss the most important point. That point is to refine the various links in the chain to allow a hiend system to function at its best. Personally I feel you need to have driven a great car to know why you would aspire to one. Prepare yourself for an interesting time. Do allow time to burn in the outlets. Some are said to sound quite bad initially. |
I don't want to skew what people want tested but here's my offer- I'll put up $50 bucks toward the purchase of some additional outlets -whichever they are, I don't care, let the folks here pick em by consensus for the test. Send me a PM Peter, or just go to my media business website and email me from there: it is flyingreptilemediagroup. Let the people decide what they want 'tested'- I have no vested interest in the outcome, and those who know me here know i'm not a shill for anybody, whether it's Peter (who I don't even think I've chatted with before this thread), or any other manufacturer or dealer. (I do know Albert and have bought stuff from him, but if you decide that the X outlet kicks Albert's ass, so be it. ;) And it may be that more folks want to see a battle royale between the cheap or pretty cheap stuff and the 'super audiophile grade' stuff, just to see if a standard part from the hardware store can live up to, or even beat, the high priced spread. I'll give some thought to some recordings that might be revealing but part of it, aside from good quality recording, is simply that you know it well enough that it 'becomes' a reference- -you know what to look for. Unfortunately, once you've listened to the same record a million times for that purpose, you begin to hate it! (The Records to Die From Syndrome a/k/a 'No Stairway to Heaven' sign in the Wayne's World movie). Glad to help with ideas if I can, but I still hope we get some behavioral scientist types for methological suggestions. I'm kinda of running around for the next week in Austin, so I'm not sure how much I'll be on the board, but I'll try to stay plugged in. (sorry for the bad pun, but one other issue- some of these outlets have different coatings, don't they? Even from the same brand? So, what about that as a factor? Don't mean to add to your headaches...). Best, bill hart |
Peter, I would leave the cheap outlet in the test. In my case, there was an obvious problem with my new, $3.00 heavy duty Levitons. I am quite sure that most people would have heard the difference immediately. I think the thread has been about "Can a $50 outlet and a $3 outlet sound different." Not, "Can two $50 outlets sound different?" |
I would urge some caution in making broad sweeping generalizations based on the results. If, on the one hand, a group of listeners can detect differences in outlets, that demonstrates that under certain circumstances, the effects of outlets can be audible. It does not imply that all listeners will here differences under all circumstances. On the other hand, I'm not sure that failure to obtain a statistically significant result in the test means that it is impossible for such audible differences to be heard under any circumstance. With respect to the test itself, If possible, I would prefer the listeners not hear the tests collectively. It is difficult to ensure people are not being influenced by others. I would proceed first with a quick A/B, (better, worse, no/little difference, then proceed with A/C. C/D, C/E, etc retaining the preferred choice for each A/B comparison. As one proceeds through the test, roll back into the A/B a rejected outlet to see if the perceived preference is retained. Whart offers good comments about comparing outlets that are close. That would require more extended listening. My experience would lead me to expect that there could be obvious problems with the cheap outlets, but perhaps less obvious differences between outlets prepared and marketed for audio use. |
Whart, I suppose that we could eliminate the total el cheapo one for a high $ one like the Oyaide or whatever the group that decides to "donate" such can agree on. I think it should be a set, i.e. both Outlet and AC plug. I'm leaving this one up to you, if you can get a group put together for a high $ one go for it I'll be happy to include it. By the time I'm be done with the test jig and and the outlets etc I'm a Grand into this one already. The only one left to suggest a AC plug is for the Teslaplex from Synergistic Research, I bought it form Tweak Geek in Colorado - asked for a suggestion but never got one. Albert Porter suggested a specific Hubbell AC Plug for his outlet, I'll search for that particular one tomorrow. I'll also start a systems page for the test over the next week so anyone interested can see where we are at, as well as give suggestions and comments. Good Listening Peter |
Thanks Peter, i'm hardly an expert, some of this comes from basic behavioral 'testing', i.e. when you do polls or try to get an honest opinion from a subject; some of it, just my experience as a listener, i.e. i think i have pretty 'quick ears,' in the sense that i can detect differences, but deciding which is better or worse takes longer, not only in time, but over various material. It sounds like you have a Leviton, a Hubbell, a Porter (which may be a tweaked Hubbell?) plus a total cheapola? I think that's a little too much on the low end,* I'd vote for including a couple of top dog receptacles, I don't know the model of the recherche Furutech and i thought a lot of folks switched to that from the Oyaide, but if you could make room for that too, it might be good. If it is a question of expense, I'm sure you could get several of us to send you 25 bucks each to buy some of the fancier ones. I'm happy to contribute if others are too, i know you weren't soliciting- but it's a minimal investment for the sake of science. :) I participated in a similar test years ago to pick the best exhaust for a hepped up Porsche turbo. (Had a GT2 at the time). I agreed to buy the Ruf exhaust if it tested best, paid for it, Ruf delivered it to the shop that ran the test and lo and behold, a cheapo exhaust actually delivered more power than the Ruf. Ruf graciously took the exhaust back from the test shop, and refunded the money to me (it was a pretty expensive muffler). I bought the el cheapo one that won the test. Hated it! It was so fking loud i couldn't hear myself think. *PS not implying the Porter is low end, that's actually what's in my current room right now. PPS: I have to believe there are some scientists here who know test methodology, including some behavioral science types who could help you. I know, over the years, I've read various articles about blind testing. Here's a link to one, i am not endorsing it, but you'll see that the description of the methodology, as well as some of the letters criticizing the approach, can stimulate your thinking. http://www.stereophile.com/features/113/index.html FWIW, having listeners familiarize themselves with the pieces of music first is a good idea. You also have the issue, not just of listener fatique, but of 'vinyl fatigue' for lack of a better word- you shouldn't be playing the same cuts over and over- it will kill the record and probably not sound as good after several back to back plays. I know the AES also has some papers, Floyd Toole, etc. but I'm out of my depth here, and the first to admit it. Interesting to see what others can contribute on the test methology. I will note that having folks listen to 8 different options is going to make it pretty tough to choose, by the time you are on choice 8, can you remember what choice 1 even sounded like? Maybe that's taken care of by repeat testing and averaging it out, but the sample population then becomes an issue too, I think- is it a big enough sample to be significant? |
Chad, I did consider the Oyaide outlets - but I have a limit of 8 outlets, mainly because my little PLC that I use for these things only have 8 outputs. I wanted to include the 2 generic outlets the Leviton and the Hubbel industrial grade, as well as a completely generic super cheap one with a similar moulded cord. The Audiophile Grade AC outlets I selected for the test were the ones recommended the most in the thread. Also I think that if we conclude that there is little if any difference in these 8 it would be safe to conclude that any heard difference in outlets is imagined. You already know my position on this if you have read the tread through, but since there was such passion for this why not do a controlled test, I might learn something, if I do great, if not at least I'll have some data to back up any advise given on the subject. As far a "break in" of the outlets I will try to do my best to get some mileage on them, most likely by connecting them all at the same time in parallel once i get the jig mounted up and maybe run my two amps at home on them for a few weeks this way they will all have the same amount of hours on them. Personally I don't think much break in if any is needed but I want this to be as objective as possible, and both you and Rja suggested it (Rja, welcome back, I'm pleased that we can have a civilized conversation about this) Rok2id, If you insist :-) Good Listening Peter |
Leaving aside hook up, burn-in, etc., is there some way you can log listener reactions to match what receptacles/plugs they are responding to? are listeners allowed to share their comments as a group in deciding what sounds 'better' or 'worse'? (There is often 'groupthink' where people's attitudes are influenced by the views of peers); duration of playing on each outlet - the fast "a/b" type switch doesn't tell much sometimes or can be misleading, partly because of the source material that may be playing at any given time, so some thought should be given, not only to duration of listening on each receptacle/plug, but on the kinds of source material that will be used- I would think a range of stuff that shows mid range, simple acoustic instrument recordings, human voice that is not over-gimmicked in the recording process; piano- critical, at least to me in assessing what is going on in a system, etc. I will look at your system re source equipment, but would assume the more revealing the source and program material, the more obvious the differences, all other things being equal. Just out of curiosity, are you doing vinyl or tape? |
Peter, I applaud you. This is the stuff. These guys that talk and have giant opinions but have never tried it get on my nerves. You have a massive task to prepare though. You will need to 'burn in' each outlet for at least a few hundred hours before conducting any meaningful test. Don't forget some Oyaide sockets too if you can. |
THE GREAT AC OUTLET SHOOTOUT. Just to satisfy my own curiosity and because of the very passionate debate by some relating to this issue, I have decided to perform a controlled listening test of AC outlets, basically most of the ones suggested in this tread that I could get a hold of. Im basically putting my own money where my mouth is. I have procured the following AC outlets, all are new and unused. Audio Magic NanoStream, $ 69 and WattGate 5266i AC Plug $10 Porter Port by Albert Porter, $41 and TBD AC Plug $ ? Furutech FPX-G $95, and Furutech FI-11M-G AC Plug $55 Pass Seymour CR6300 Cryo $44 with Pass Seymour 5366XCCV4 AC Plug $10 Teslaplex SE by Synergistic Research $95 and TBD AC Plug $ ? Hubbell HBL5362-I Heavy Duty Spec. Grade Grande Duplex $16 and HBL5266C AC plug $10 Levitron 5362-W Industrial Heavy Duty Grande, Straight Blade, Self Grounding Duplex $7 and AC Plug Levitron 5266-C Industrial grade $10 El Cheapo HomeDepot Outlet $0.54 with regular Cheap moulded power cord $5 Technical Description of the Test: To ensure that all the outlets will be equally represented in this test they will be mounted in a test fixture evenly spaced. They will all be fed via a single piece of 12 gauge romex cable directly hardwired to a dedicated 20 amp breaker in our main panel. The wire will be uncut when wired between the different outlets - basically simulating a single run dedicated line as only one outlet will be energized at any time. As you can see if have ordered AC Plugs of the same manufacture and grade as the outlets, I have asked the suppliers of the Audio Grade outlets what AC plug they recommend to get the best performance from the outlet, that way there should be synergy within the - connection point - that is to be evaluated. The AC plugs will be wired with 3x12 Gauge SJOOW about 12 long these will be hardwired to each their own 3 pole 20Amp relay that will be controlled by a PLC (programable logic controller) this to enable remote controlled switching between the 8 different outlets. The control will be programmed so that the next circuit will energize prior to the past one is de-energized to ensure uninterrupted current flow to the system that will be used for the test. The Complete Audio system will be fed from this one test jig, one outlet at a time. The individual power cords for each piece of equipment will be hard wired into a common terminal strip that is fed from the output of the relays. With this setup the ONLY variable is the AC outlet and its associated AC Plug. The test jig with the outlets will be run in prior to the test for at least 24 hours to insure break in for the ones that feel that this is important. I want to run it as a blind test at first to ensure a completely unbiased result. As each outlet is energized it will be represented by a LED indicating that now outlet A for an example is energized, enabling the test panel to identify which outlet they deem the best sounding. Many of you have stated that the AC Outlet a Audio System is connected to profoundly changes the sound of the Audio System, so it should be beyond obvious to the test panel which one sounds the best. Later on the same test jig can be used for testing AC Cables should the opportunity arise. We will use a Audio System similar to the system I have listed here on AudioGon for the test, it may change a bit by time of the test based upon what I have available at the time. The total current consumption of the system is in the range of 6 - 8 Amp at idle I estimate at this time but a complete listing of the system used, with actual current draw will be published here on this forum, along with the results of the test for those interested. System The Test Panel: On December 2nd. we will host the San Diego Music and Audio Guild here at our facility from 2P to 5P. We host that great group of folks here about every two years or 3 years, usually in December so this coinciding presents a great opportunity to do the AC Outlet test as there will be plenty of Audiophiles available for a unbiased opinion. I ran it by the President of the group this morning and he thought it would be a great thing to do along with of course auditioning our demo system in our factory show room, see and hear our new offerings, discuss audio etc. For more information about our facility you can go to our website and take a peak at the video, there is footage there from our showroom as well. Website Everyone is welcome to participate in this catered event, there will be food and beverage served. Slider Burgers, Finger Sandwiches, Draft Beer and Soft Drinks etc. If you want to attend just shoot me an email so I can plan ahead with the caterer making sure we will have enough for everyone. If any of you have any suggestions on on how to conduct the actual test, ie how long do you think each AC outlet should be on for, how many times the test should be repeated etc. suggestions are more than welcome. Also, if you have any suggestions to as how the test jig could be technically improved, let me know and Ill be happy to discuss further. As Always, Good Listening Peter |
I am with Richard_Stacy on this one. R-1 outlets for me over the half dozen other units I have tried. Maybe the Oyaide's have a tighter fit but I think there is more to this power struggle than meets the eye. I don't believe in measurements all that much anymore and just trust my ears. If something sounds better to me it stays in the chain. Too many cords over the years have changed the sound characteristics to even begin to start thinking about looking into the electrical measurements. You are much better off spending time analyzing room treatment which dwarfs anything else. I have heard a couple mid priced systems in great rooms that would have you scratching your head. WAF becomes a huge factor in most homes however. Like mine! |
This is a correction for my prior post about Hubbell outlets. I believe mine are the Hubbell HBL5362. Those that are listed as just Hubbell 5362, appear to be different. The "HBL" letters seem to be the correct ones. The 5362 without the "HBL" letters before the number must be a new series, that appear to be thinner, no brass parts, and may have not have the build quality of the HBL5362 line. Hubbell may have gone through changes, or has a another line I'm not familiar with. The letter "i" after it, stands for the ivory color. The correct one is "Hubbell HBL5362." Maybe someone else has info for this new style, without the brass. Sorry for this error. |
RichardStacy, I'm not sure if your post is meant for me, but I thought you were in your sixties now. I'm not trying to make you sound older, but you do post a lot, at times. Maybe there are two Richard Stacys on Audiogon? Please don't take offence about the age part. I think one of my friends bought some cables off of you. I believe he was pleased with them. I think you and him spoke about retiring, that's why I mentioned it. I sure could be in error, and have the wrong person in mind. Anyways, I started using better interconnects possibly before my teen years. A lot of people called them patch cords back then. They had a lot of poor ones that caused noticeable loss, and deterioration in the highs. So, I'm not one of those people that don't believe in good interconnects. I do have dedicated power lines. Years back, my one home had an over 70 foot run to the outlet. The lamps dimmed with heavy bass passages, and there was noticeable distortion due to the power sag I believe. So dedicated runs can help, in my opinion. I have done a lot of experimenting with highly qualified Electrical Engineering friends, and talking about that would be too long for now. I'm saying this for those who think my friends, and I haven't tried all kinds of products, with no knowledge before commenting. I also have Hubbell outlets. I've mentioned it in past threads. I have the 5362 series, and the 8300 series. I think I paid well under $10 for mine. The outlet on my refrigerator got almost hot, even though it was a 20 amp outlet. I put one of these on it, and it stays cool. That tells something itself, meaning it may have been generating noise from the poor connection. Possibly unsafe too. These are good outlets, and do grip the plug tight. I think you can find them for under $10 online at some places yet. I don't know about these sellers, but I think they are the correct ones. You could check your local area, it may vary a lot it appears. I don't recommend the under $3 ones either. There still are a lot of those around. They may not grip tight, wear fast, and are made cheaply in my opinion. |
Richard wrote: " I'm sure there is some technical reason why but I don't know it..." It's very simple really, and also applies in a fundamental way to stock power cords versus many aftermarket power cords, ie: big differences in contact resistance to peak current. Stock outlets (and power cords) of the $3-$10 variety) have tiny points of contact that barely make contact with whatever is plugged into them. This works fine for common household items that draw an even flow of current. A/V electronics draw current hard, off the peak and valley of the sine wave. Because of that, they are all sensitive to contact impedance. Any open connection that has poor contact integrity--whether at the panel or at the wall outlet, WILL affect performance to some degree. How much depends on the system context, how poor the contact is and and your set up. If you were to take apart a $5 Hardware store outlet and say, a Hubbel 5362 outlet from an electrical supply house --$25, you'd see exactly what I mean. The Hubbel has massive plates that grip the pins tightly and make excellent contact, while the $5 model has 1/8" strips of metal with almost no grip or contact relevance. Try this as a simple proof. Next time an electrician comes to visit for any reason, listen to your system prior to their arrival, then have them tighten the points of contact to the breaker/s that feed your system. Then listen to the system again. This should make anyone a believer that excellent contact integrity at every junction, from panel to outlet-- to component, matters in terms of performance. Why? Because panel connections vibrate loose over time and the reduction in resistance once tightened, is clearly audible. This is true when installing dedicated lines as well. You are essentially dedicating a breaker to the system (better peak-current delivery) and eliminating the resistance caused by branching a circuit to multiple outlets. Really, for $25-$30 (Hubbel 5362 Spec Grade) this is a very simple, relatively inexpensive way to test the theory. It's not pseudo science, it is measurable and it does affect the (audio-video) performance of just about any carefully set up system. That does not mean that there aren't grossly over-priced, over-sold outlets on the market, there are. They exist because there IS an audible difference and some are exploiting that, just as with power cords--but that is a different discussion. This one is fairly simple and it does not strain the laws of physics or cost a lot of money to address. This has been discussed before at some great length and there is a lot more detailed information available in the archives here and elsewhere. To answer the OP, contact any electrical supply and request a Hubbel 5362 spec grade model. You can pursue higher end alternatives, but many will only sound different due to contact plating than offer any real measurable difference. Regards, Grant Shunyata Research |
Rja Seems like you cooled off a bit, probably a wise thing to do before posting anything on the internet. I don't see where any of my posts on this subject can bee seen as sarcastic - I have tried to explain why I have the opinion I have, compare that to others that just state, try X outlet it's fantastic, or the ones that just state X outlet is garbage, just statements not backed by any explanations as to why that conclusion was reached by the person. Belittlement is a state of mind that is reached by a person by him/her self, if you don't let it get to you it will not bother you. You calling me an idiot I simply don't care about, if it got to me that mean I'd be insecure about my person or what I stand for, I'm not, I assure you. As always, Good listening Peter |
Well, it's been entertaining so far. Now as far as doctors, or even lawyers, let's be honest. They are giving us opinions, hopefully educated and erudite opinions, but opinions nonetheless. That's why many people get second and even third opinions because as humans errors can occur and it's really not that uncommon. In fact many people are killed by these errors every year. Check the statistics. I'm not exactly sure why you think I have no respect for those who design and produce high quality audio gear. That's a conclusion that completely eludes me, drawn from thin air and couldn't be farther from the truth. In fact I admire what many have accomplished. What fun would this hobby be without the many contributions that have been made starting with the wax cylinder? There are many very knowledgeable folks on Audiogon who frequently offer their opinions and technical explanations. Almarg comes to mind. He's always helpful and respectful even if he doesn't agree with a post. He explains why he doesn't agree but never belittles anyone. I happen to respect the guy for the way he handles himself in a class way and I always try to read his responses. I also appreciate Richard_stacey's approach. He keeps an open mind and experiments with some of the possibilities, drawing his conclusions from what he's heard. Isn't that approach closer to the scientific method than simply declaring "a priori" that all outlets sound the same? My beef with you two is your sarcastic attitude about this topic and because you seem to know it all. |
Hifitime wrote, "For anyone other than Rja, save your money on these high priced audio grade outlets, and upgrade something else in your system that can be heard, and measured." I can certainly understand your point of view as someone who has not tried audio grade outlets but is reacting to the notion that outlets are important and audible. It should be pointed out that, in fact, wall outlets can be heard AND measured. Also note that audio grade outlets are not high priced... they are actually what you would probably call cheap. I mean, unless you've been on unemployment for the last three years. |
Interesting story that feels relevant to this discussion... I met one of my closest friends here on Audiogon a few years back, Jim. A side note, this is one of the reasons the new format troubles me. It's not possible to develop relationships like the one I have with Jim here. Really too bad. Anyway, Jim is one of the smartest guys I've met in my life. I'm 50 years old and have been around many pretty smart guys in technical/medical fields so it's saying a lot. He's an electrical engineer, currently pretty high up in military/defense research, construction and supply. he designs very sophisticated power supplies etc and also spent many years in the audio industry. When I met Jim he swore to me that cables and power devices were nonsense/snake oil. Over time he began to trust my ears and was open minded enough to take my suggestions to try some. Since then he has replaced all of his cables with pretty costly MIT stuff, designed and built elaborate power cables and rewired his entire electrical supply chain. He also has one of the outlets I mentioned in my previous posts, Furutech, borrowed from me to audition. Despite all of his training pointing otherwise, he has been openminded and humble enough to understand that there is wisdom beyond what he has been taught and because of that his system is significantly better for it. I have a great deal of respect for guys like him. On the other hand, guys that think they have all the answers because they can't get from A to B in their skull....well they are going to stay stuck. That is a pretty grandiose position to take, actually. The reality is that outlets sound different. It's not a theory, belief or feeling...it's a fact. I'm sure there is some technical reason why but I don't know it nor do I care. If your the kind of dude that needs to know then rather then mislead people with your limited knowledge/experience and research this further until you have all the facts. I don't want this to come off as disrespectful, please do not take it that way. I know sometimes it's hard to be direct on a forum without sounding like a d..k :) |
10-22-12: Rja 10-22-12: Rja [quote]State your position and then vamoose muchacho!Rja, you sound like a bitter man. Your the one that put the rude, belittling comments. It seems you have a disrespect for anyone, that may have more knowledge on a subject, than you do. I don't know why people react like you. Maybe they scare you. Some of us like to help others by saving them money on an unproven product, that has no scientific backup. Again, I would like to see measured proof. The people that make amps, and other audio products, get their gear checked out in so many different ways, by reviewers, that try to find flaws with their products, it's almost unreal. Not so, with outlets. I guess they all test the same, when hooked to an audio system. All of our audio gear is made by highly educated people that are Electrical Engineers, or have a high enough knowledge about scientific facts in electronics, to build it. Unlike you, Rja, I have respect for these people. Also, other highly educated people, in other subjects, and professions. Maybe you Rja, don't like these highly educated people, but we wouldn't have our systems, or the internet without them. No electric, and the list is endless. It is definitively apparent you are not capable of designing and engineering these things. Rja, my highly educated Medical Doctor tells me things, that I'm not knowledgeable about, but unlike you, I respect him. I also follow what he says. I don't him an idiot. Maybe part of your problem is, you called your Medical Doctor an idiot too. Also, you don't practice what you preach. I've read some of your answers, and prior threads. I never told anyone they can't buy a so-called audio grade outlet. So, Rja, buy any outlet you choose, and enjoy your music. I'm not your boss. For anyone other than Rja, save your money on these high priced audio grade outlets, and upgrade something else in your system that can be heard, and measured. You'll be just as happy with the under ten dollar outlet, in my opinion(this is not meant to be belittling). Then, maybe you'll have extra money to buy something else for sale right here on Audiogon! |
You're both idiots! I don't really care what you think or know or believe or even where you came from. There are posts here everyday that state that there cannot possibly be any sonic differences between outlets, wires, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum. I'm saying fine, believe whatever you want to believe I don't care. State your case and be gone instead of belittling those who want to have a conversation. I'm not even talking about outlets, never made a claim one way the other, but you don't seem to grasp this. What I am talking about is your sarcastic attitudes and the way you're participating in this thread. For some reason you both seem to "know it all". Well, good for you! |
Rja, these are facts stated about outlets, not just beliefs. As I stated, I never have seen anything, that supports an outlet having any sound characteristic. Show me proof, if you believe otherwise. This comes from engineers, and other knowledgeable people, that help make audio reproduction as we know it happen. Also other electronic based products, that even helps make our world better, and life easier. Same electronics behind that too. Based on facts. Get to know some engineers. Study some electronics, and learn how these things work. If you did, it may help you understand some statements others make. Then when you've built amps, power supplies, even just for an amateur hobby, you'll find out how different parts in them, the voltage supplying them, can influence their different sound. Or just modify some. That helps make some statements made, more than just what we believe. It helps bring the facts out. |
Rja, The OP was "Where do I search for ac outlets?" I was the first to offer suggestions - not as to how and outlet "sounds" but to what I think is important for a electrical outlet, ie. make a solid point of contact. I do have some experience in just that. I started at age 15 as an Electrician apprentice, in Europe (I'm from Denmark) that's an education that takes 3.5 years of where 1 year is spent on the school bench, and 2.5 years working with electrical installations under the immediate supervision of a trained Electrician, ie one that has completed the 3.5 years of apprenticeship and under the direction of a Electrical Engineer. Upon completion of my apprenticeship I went directly to college to get my Electrical Engineering degree. I'm not stating this to "belittle" anyone, that is not my nature, I offered advise to try to help on a subject that I know about. It is my contention that there is way too much snake oil in this industry - and I do think that subjects like this adds to that simply because facts are ignored. Good Listening, Peter |
Hifitime, I never made any claims about outlets one way or another. It is just my contention that some posters on this thread are trying to dictate their "beliefs" on everyone else in a rather dictatorial manner and belittling them as well. If you do not believe there are sonic differences between different outlets why participate in the conversation? State your position and then vamoose muchacho! |
Interesting thread. I've done some hands/ears on research here with my system and after several rounds I have settled on Oyaide R-1 outlets which clearly sound best with my gear. The outlets I have tried off the top of my head: Cheapo Lowes, PassSeymour Hospital Grade, Porter Port, Wattgate 381, Furutech GTX-D, MIT Super 20 (more of a conditioner since it contains filters). They all sound very different so I think it would take some trials to determine which you prefer. I also think it's important to note the differences are not subtle. I would never have imagined this to be the case without putting in the work to find out for myself. "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer |
If all outlets that do their job sound identical and discussion is moot are we still allowed to discuss outlets? If at some point you hear differences in outlets, even a minor one, can we start discussing them again? After all it does seem that you are the final arbiter and what you say goes. All bow to the final arbiter who has determined any discussion of this subject is unnecessary! Thank you almighty one who has all knowledge of such matters! Of course I assume that you have heard all outlets available oh powerful one while we mere mortals continue to struggle along. |
Rok2kid, You are correct about the effects of gravity. It is predictable, even if the bases on which our predictions are made are wrong. When are things ever so clear cut with audio.? I can spend 30K on another amp or preamp and no one can predict a priori how it will sound in my system. My point with outlets is that this is an inexpensive experiment. In my case, a $40 outlet fixed a problem that was only partially rectified by a much more expensive power treatment device. Finally, high end audio is based on the marriage of electrical engineering with art. The designer must know the physics, and he must have an ear for music. There are companies out there that have consistently demonstrated they have both elements in place. Though I have a background in science, my background is not in physics. My approach to audio tends to be empirical, not theoretical. Questions are answered after the fact by music, not ab initio based on presuppositions. |
An outlet is only a connection point. It does not change the sound of anything, just as long as it does its job right. By doing its job right, I'm speaking of it making the connection tight and safely, and carrying the current it's designed to. As long as it does its job this way, there should not be any change in sound. The 60 cycle AC power coming from your outlet is converted to DC, in your component. If any of the AC is getting through the equipment's power supply, something is wrong. If the outlet makes a bad connection, then it could introduce noise into the system. A good grade of commercial, or a hospital grade should do this just fine. A good connection should not get hot, or make noise. A hot one is a bad sign. The better outlets can handle more usage, without wearing as quick as the budget ones, that come standard in a lot of homes. There are a ton of connections that the AC power must pass through just from the transformer, to your home. Then, there are countless connections in the power grid. Not only outlets, power cords just carry the power needed to your gear also, putting these in a similar category. Shielded power cords can help stop RF leakage, that can get airborne. They've been using this shielding on some computer cords, before upgraded audio power cords existed. Also, who knows how many noise generating factories, other facilities, and homes, are tied to your AC power, through the US Power Grid? There is no proof, that I have seen, of any audio grade outlet doing a better job of this transfer of power, in a home audio system, or any other. Just buy a good quality commercial, or hospital grade outlet. That should do the job just fine. |
Brownsfan: At least the effects of gravity can be predicted in advance of actually experiencing it. The wire people never advertise what their product will do, other than conduct electricity. I guess they leave it to the customers to decide. Let's be careful about using analogies with science. Next thing you know we will talking about speaker placement and quantum mechanics in the same sentence. When that happens, it's Delta Quadrant here I come! |
Rok2id. Everything has a cause, but I dare say you cannot explain every phenonenon that occurs. Last I checked, there was still a debate about what "causes" gravity. I don't know of anyone who walks around claiming there is no gravity, or says, "I'm not going to believe in gravity until it can be fully explained." |
Peter, I would shoot Audio magic an email. Jerry has usually been pretty fast in getting back to me. I got my nanoplexes straight from Jerry. He ran an add for them a while back and sold them direct. Another option would be to contact Audiogon user Fork, who is an Audio Magic dealer. As I said I was not expecting much, but I was just stunned. One thing I would mention is that they sounded great straight out of the box, but after a few hours they went through a period of a few hours where my amps didn't sound so good. I left them on for a while, maybe a couple days, and that seemed to do the trick and they were back to sounding super again. If you look at my system page you will see I am using other Audio Magic gear for power treatment. It seems to really be working well for me. |
Look, I am by nature a skeptic. By education and profession I am a scientist. I'm a pretty good problem solver, as attested by 6 patents and a few publications in scientific journals. I don't easily buy into audio tweeks that invoke metaphysical explainations. What I do is run experiments. I can understand why a 40 year old spec grade outlet that obviously is loose might be a problem. It's pretty cheap and makes good sense to replace those with new high quality outlets. Its a little higher hurdle to spend 50 bucks on an outlet, but, there are a number of people around here who swear by them. So, I bought a PS audio outlet a few years back and gave it a try. I really didn't notice anything, so I didn't go any further. About a year ago, Audio magic offered a "good" price on their nanostreamed outlets, and I have had good luck with their stuff, so I decided to give it a try again. As I said in my previous post, it made a huge difference. I was so surprised that I doubted my own ears, so I actually put the old outlets back in and switched them back and forth several times. I can't explain why they made such a huge difference, but they certainly did. There are things we experience that aren't consistent with our expectations. All I'm saying is run the experiment with unbiased ears. Sometimes people hear what they expect to hear. That cuts both ways. Don't exclude yourselves from a tweek that might make a huge difference. Run the experiement. If it helps great. If not, well, it was only a $50 experiment. |