Wow! I think this is about all anyone who wants a clear answer could ask for. I agree on the burn in time though. My AM went through a nasty sounding phase for a few hours. |
Leaving aside hook up, burn-in, etc.,
is there some way you can log listener reactions to match what
receptacles/plugs they are responding to?
are listeners allowed to share their comments as a group in deciding what
sounds 'better' or 'worse'? (There is often 'groupthink' where people's
attitudes are influenced by the views of peers);
duration of playing on each outlet - the fast "a/b" type switch doesn't tell
much sometimes or can be misleading, partly because of the source
material that may be playing at any
given time, so some thought should be given, not only to duration of
listening on each receptacle/plug, but on the kinds of source material that
will be used- I would think a range of stuff that shows mid range, simple
acoustic instrument recordings, human voice that is not over-gimmicked in
the recording process; piano- critical, at least to me in assessing what is
going on in a system, etc. I will look at your system re source equipment,
but would assume the more revealing the source and program material, the
more obvious the differences, all other things being equal. Just out of
curiosity, are you doing vinyl or tape? |
Chad,
I did consider the Oyaide outlets - but I have a limit of 8 outlets, mainly because my little PLC that I use for these things only have 8 outputs.
I wanted to include the 2 generic outlets the Leviton and the Hubbel industrial grade, as well as a completely generic super cheap one with a similar moulded cord. The Audiophile Grade AC outlets I selected for the test were the ones recommended the most in the thread.
Also I think that if we conclude that there is little if any difference in these 8 it would be safe to conclude that any heard difference in outlets is imagined. You already know my position on this if you have read the tread through, but since there was such passion for this why not do a controlled test, I might learn something, if I do great, if not at least I'll have some data to back up any advise given on the subject.
As far a "break in" of the outlets I will try to do my best to get some mileage on them, most likely by connecting them all at the same time in parallel once i get the jig mounted up and maybe run my two amps at home on them for a few weeks this way they will all have the same amount of hours on them. Personally I don't think much break in if any is needed but I want this to be as objective as possible, and both you and Rja suggested it (Rja, welcome back, I'm pleased that we can have a civilized conversation about this)
Rok2id, If you insist :-)
Good Listening
Peter |
Whart,
Vinyl is my preferred source - and we will use CD as well.
Thanks
Peter |
Whart,
You make a lot of good points and exactly the input I was looking for as my strong point is the technical side of this. Maybe you could suggest an actual procedure along with some musical selections you think would be appropriate to use.
Please keep the suggestions coming
Good Listening
Peter |
Thanks Peter, i'm hardly an expert, some of this comes from basic
behavioral 'testing', i.e. when you do polls or try to get an honest opinion
from a subject; some of it, just my experience as a listener, i.e. i think i
have pretty 'quick ears,' in the sense that i can detect differences, but
deciding which is better or worse takes longer, not only in time, but over
various material.
It sounds like you have a Leviton, a Hubbell, a Porter (which may be a
tweaked Hubbell?) plus a total cheapola? I think that's a little too much on
the low end,* I'd vote for including a couple of top dog receptacles, I don't
know the model of the recherche Furutech and i thought a lot of folks
switched to that from the Oyaide, but if you could make room for that too, it
might be good. If it is a question of expense, I'm sure you could get several
of us to send you 25 bucks each to buy some of the fancier ones. I'm happy
to contribute if others are too, i know you weren't soliciting- but it's a
minimal investment for the sake of science. :)
I participated in a similar test years ago to pick the best exhaust for a
hepped up Porsche turbo. (Had a GT2 at the time). I agreed to buy the Ruf
exhaust if it tested best, paid for it, Ruf delivered it to the shop that ran the
test and lo and behold, a cheapo exhaust actually delivered more power
than the Ruf. Ruf graciously took the exhaust back from the test shop, and
refunded the money to me (it was a pretty expensive muffler). I bought the
el cheapo one that won the test. Hated it! It was so fking loud i couldn't hear
myself think.
*PS not implying the Porter is low end, that's actually what's in my current
room right now.
PPS: I have to believe there are some scientists here who know test
methodology, including some behavioral science types who could help you.
I know, over the years, I've read various articles about blind testing.
Here's a link to one, i am not endorsing it, but you'll see that the description
of the methodology, as well as some of the letters criticizing the approach,
can stimulate your thinking.
http://www.stereophile.com/features/113/index.html
FWIW, having listeners familiarize themselves with the pieces of music first
is a good idea. You also have the issue, not just of listener fatique, but of
'vinyl fatigue' for lack of a better word- you shouldn't be playing the same
cuts over and over- it will kill the record and probably not sound as good
after several back to back plays. I know the AES also has some papers,
Floyd Toole, etc. but I'm out of my depth here, and the first to admit it.
Interesting to see what others can contribute on the test methology. I will
note that having folks listen to 8 different options is going to make it pretty
tough to choose, by the time you are on choice 8, can you remember what
choice 1 even sounded like? Maybe that's taken care of by repeat testing
and averaging it out, but the sample population then becomes an issue too,
I think- is it a big enough sample to be significant? |
Whart,
I suppose that we could eliminate the total el cheapo one for a high $ one like the Oyaide or whatever the group that decides to "donate" such can agree on. I think it should be a set, i.e. both Outlet and AC plug. I'm leaving this one up to you, if you can get a group put together for a high $ one go for it I'll be happy to include it. By the time I'm be done with the test jig and and the outlets etc I'm a Grand into this one already.
The only one left to suggest a AC plug is for the Teslaplex from Synergistic Research, I bought it form Tweak Geek in Colorado - asked for a suggestion but never got one.
Albert Porter suggested a specific Hubbell AC Plug for his outlet, I'll search for that particular one tomorrow.
I'll also start a systems page for the test over the next week so anyone interested can see where we are at, as well as give suggestions and comments.
Good Listening
Peter |
I would urge some caution in making broad sweeping generalizations based on the results. If, on the one hand, a group of listeners can detect differences in outlets, that demonstrates that under certain circumstances, the effects of outlets can be audible. It does not imply that all listeners will here differences under all circumstances. On the other hand, I'm not sure that failure to obtain a statistically significant result in the test means that it is impossible for such audible differences to be heard under any circumstance.
With respect to the test itself, If possible, I would prefer the listeners not hear the tests collectively. It is difficult to ensure people are not being influenced by others. I would proceed first with a quick A/B, (better, worse, no/little difference, then proceed with A/C. C/D, C/E, etc retaining the preferred choice for each A/B comparison. As one proceeds through the test, roll back into the A/B a rejected outlet to see if the perceived preference is retained.
Whart offers good comments about comparing outlets that are close. That would require more extended listening.
My experience would lead me to expect that there could be obvious problems with the cheap outlets, but perhaps less obvious differences between outlets prepared and marketed for audio use. |
Peter, I would leave the cheap outlet in the test. In my case, there was an obvious problem with my new, $3.00 heavy duty Levitons. I am quite sure that most people would have heard the difference immediately. I think the thread has been about "Can a $50 outlet and a $3 outlet sound different." Not, "Can two $50 outlets sound different?" |
I don't want to skew what people want tested but here's my offer- I'll put up
$50 bucks toward the purchase of some additional outlets -whichever they
are, I don't care, let the folks here pick em by consensus for the test. Send
me a PM Peter, or just go
to my media business website and email me from there: it is
flyingreptilemediagroup. Let the people decide what they want 'tested'- I
have no vested interest in the outcome, and those who know me here know
i'm not a shill for anybody, whether it's Peter (who I don't even think I've
chatted with before this thread), or any other manufacturer or dealer. (I do
know Albert and have bought stuff from him, but if you decide that the X
outlet kicks Albert's ass, so be it. ;)
And it may be that more folks want to see a battle royale between the
cheap or pretty cheap stuff and the 'super audiophile grade' stuff, just to
see if a standard part from the hardware store can live up to, or even beat,
the high priced spread.
I'll give some thought to some recordings that might be revealing but part of
it, aside from good quality recording, is simply that you know it well enough
that it 'becomes' a reference- -you know what to look for. Unfortunately,
once you've listened to the same record a million times for that purpose,
you begin to hate it! (The Records to Die From Syndrome a/k/a 'No
Stairway to Heaven' sign in the Wayne's World movie).
Glad to help with ideas if I can,
but I still hope we get some behavioral scientist types for methological
suggestions. I'm kinda of running around for the next week in Austin, so I'm
not sure how much I'll be on the board, but I'll try to stay plugged in. (sorry
for the bad pun, but one other issue- some of these outlets have different
coatings, don't they? Even from the same brand? So, what about that as a
factor? Don't mean to add to your headaches...).
Best,
bill hart |
Hi Peter,
another relatively cheap, but said to be good sounding outlet is the maestro. It is used in an extremely expensive range of mains conditioner called Tripoint.
I think it is very important to try the outlets that are said to sound great.
The cheap non audiophile ones will most likely be much the same as each other. In my experience sounding metallic, shut in, and nasty in the treble for whatever reason when compared to good audiophile outlets.
Surely the point is to show why an audiophile would/should bother changing outlets? If some effort to audition "good" sounding ones is not put in we may miss the most important point. That point is to refine the various links in the chain to allow a hiend system to function at its best.
Personally I feel you need to have driven a great car to know why you would aspire to one.
Prepare yourself for an interesting time.
Do allow time to burn in the outlets. Some are said to sound quite bad initially. |
Well first I also applaud Peter for his willingness to see if his beliefs actually hold true in application. I respect that a great deal (not that anyone cares!).
As has been mentioned, in my experience many of the cheapos, even to the plain hospital grade, sound very similar and without some pretty long exposure to familiar music may be harder to discern than the more specialized devices. maybe this is due to difference coatings (Rhodium etc)?
Another factor I think is important here is you may want to consider using the same connectors throughout. If not you then run the risk of hearing the connectors rather than the outlets as they also sound different. Even within brands they sound different and use different platings. Rhodium plugs on Rhodium outlets are going to sound different than Brass on Brass etc.
Many thanks for your time, efforts and financial investment. Look forward to following the process. |
Richard,
Thank you for the recognition, it is greatly appreciated.
As far as the AC plugs - I think that if the AC outlet test is to be meaningful then the "correct" AC plug has to be used as well, the outlet is only half of the connection point, the plug being the other half, which is why I have selected the exact same level of plug on the off the shelf outlets. On the Audio Grade outlets I have asked the suppliers of them what AC plug they recommend for best performance of their outlet, and I have got an answer form all but the supplier of the Teslaplex - but a friend of mine have some power cords form Synergistic from which I will "borrow" a plug.
Good Listening
Peter |
A good variety of plugs can be obtained from vh Audio. I would also ask Chris for advice. He is very familiar with the materials and the differences. I too am a skeptic, but the things of his I have tried, he has been accurate each time. Now, I listen, and open up the mind a bit. |
Jallen,
I got the Furutech FPX-G Outlet and the Furutech FI-11M-G AC Plug along with the Pass Seymour CR6300 Cryo Outlet from VH Audio.
They seem to have a great selection of various tweaks. They shipped the same day I ordered so great service too, highly recommended.
Good Listening
Peter |
Another outlet definitely worth considering is the silver plated Acme Audio duplex. This is the outlet preferred by Bob Crump.
Cheers,
GK
Machina Dynamica |
Geoff,
An outlet treated with special sauce :-) Don't know about this one. Pricing seem reasonable.
I think we have a pretty good selection of outlets for the test - a real high$ has been suggested, make TBD, Whart has put up $50 for starting a SOAC (Super Outlet Action Committee) - let's see if he gets any donors.
Good Listening
Peter |
Peter, forgot to mention the Acme outlet is cryo'd.
Geoff |
