Guys, this goes for any great speaker and not just Vandy's. I don't see how you can get a good read from a show. Music is about the emotion and evolvement. The contestants who win those tV shows have the big dynamic voices (mostly). The TV's in a show room are on BRIGHT. The speakers that catch your ear in a showroom or show are the ones who are tipped up on both ends of the spectrum much of the time. I was at a demo of Vandy 7's and the 5's were playing in the other room and folks just gravitated to the other room. Granted they were smoking in there. They were the best I've ever heard 5 sound. I stayed in the vinyl room with ref AR/Vandersteen amps and the 7's....I heard things that I've never heard before and I was VERY familiar with the cuts as well as the gear and the room. I went up to Richard and the owner and told them both I was in shock as how incredible the 7's sounded. They had the emotion, the speed, the timbre.....the stage, the placement of sound and everything else you hear at a live event. It wasn't 'hifi' and I got one other audiophile to go back in the room with me to give them a real listen while everyone else was around the 5's. This person listened for a few tracks and said that he too heard and felt what I did. It was like being at a live event. I know that Richfield will probably say the same thing. It isn't the speaker that will jump out at you and 'impress' you, but over time it's the one that does nearly everything right. It even plays big if you want that. I've spent a lot of time recently with some of the speakers on Matt's list and am impressed by many. The thing is I can't live with many of them as they are missing something and often it's because they are tipped up 1 to even 2 db on the top and that's to grab folks attention. That's why you get so fatigued and blame it on other components or your room. We've all gone this route in the past and will continue to.
For me I'd audition the newest Rockport, Kharma, Avalon (haven't heard them in years but used to like them), Wilson and Tidal. I've spent a fair amount of time with all the above except the Kharma and Avalon. I think I have liked the Tidal best behind the Vandy's. I heard them with all Tidal gear and they were set up perfectly in the dealer's home. I just couldn't' fully get into the layers of texture of the songs like I do with the 7's. We all have different likes and dislikes, that's for sure.
Matt, please let me know if you head over to Johnny's for a listen and I'll try to get down to meet you in person. Richfield, that goes for you too! |
A hotel room is no indication of how they sound in a properly set up listening room. Like you said thats why we have choices. We each like have different opinions and likes and dislikes. For my money there is no comparison. |
Wisnon, Vienna Die Muzik are in fact Matt's current speakers.
Richfield_hunter, I have heard the opportunity of auditionhing Vandersteen 7s several times at RMAF... Units set up with TLC by Mr. Vandersteen himself... Pleasing, yet -- like Matt -- I was never enraptured... Different strokes, n'est pas?!
G.
|
You can also look at Eficion, Lansche, Stenheim Alumine and Ref (love them), S-F Strads, Vienna Acoustics Klimt - The Music, etc...
I dont really like W-Benesche when I heard em...The Cardinals. |
Matt
Richard Vandersteen designs and builds his own amp for the speakers as far as I know. I understand your comment about the powered speakers. However I can tell you for sure whatever amp, preamp, cable etc you change in your system does make a change on the Sevens even though they are self powered. I changed the Caps in my BAT VK 600 SE to the new caps from the 655SE and heard even that difference in the bottome end from the amp. So don't let that be a concern of yours. The Sevens bass is incredible and the ability to tune the bass to your room your listening tastes is something that is not only unique but in my opinion necessary in a high end speaker. The placement of the speaker in the room for the best imaging and soundstage and then tuning it to your tastes and the best seemless integration with the midrange is so important in the reproduction of music. No other speaker has the ability and then have the timbre qualities of the drivers that Richard uses. See my review on Agon of the Sevens I posted a few weeks ago.
Jeff |
The Polymer Masters are too big and I'm not a fan of side firing woofers in a small room. And they are well over $100k, I think closer to $200k.
Thanks for the other tips. I'll read up. There are SO many good speakers out there. I just wish Statement didn't also mean Holy Crap $$$$ ! |
Matt,
BTW, thanks for the comprehensive summary. Good job.
Your opinion, so no need to agree or disagree. I only need to digest. Its a decent frame of reference.
The Polymer Masters cost a LOT more, but they may have solved the low end issue.
Another interesting speaker is the German Brand Fischer& Fischer. Made of special Granite, the cabinet give new meaning to the term, INERT. Heil tweeter used for the top end.
To go a bit further afield, The Austrian make Trenner&Friedl and the Italian Onda Liguera are 2 other quality contenders, as is the Greek Ypsilon brand. |
Matt,
Franco Serblin was the original founder of Sonus Faber:
More chat here, including my opinion:
http://audioshark.org/speakers-10/franco-serblin-ktema-speakers-any-opinion-5258.html |
Richfield_Hunter - do you know which amp they use for the internal subs? It's that typical 400 watt spec which strongly suggests a Hypex UCD400 or more likely the OEM UCD variant. It's a very good amp and used frequently in the high end world for internal or external powered subs mated to expensive speakers. |
Lol. see what you did to me Wisnon! Post a list and a preference and fans of other companies will come out and defend their honor....
Ok. I was actually expecting this so I'll addres it head on.
My initial game plan purposely excluded any powered woofer speaker. So the two obvious choices in this price range that were cut were the Vandy 7's and the Schweikert VR-55's; both powered woofers. I feel that one of my Burmester amps true virtues is their low frequency reproduction. So I really wanted to keep that job on the shoulders of my amps. I was true to that plan until I heard the Perfect8 speakers, which utilize a powered separate woofer enclosure.
I gave the Vandy and the Schweikert a fair listen at the show to get a taste for them both. The Schweikert is physically a bit on the large size for my room, but the Vandy is relatively small. I liked what I heard, but nothing grabbed me and said "you have to look into these further". I felt that the Schweikert would be too big as I am really trying to find the right speaker to give me the performance I want and the flexibility to put them where they will sound their best. It's a challenge.
I'm not making a purchase just yet. And there is a Vandy dealer here in NJ that I can go visit. I'll find time and give them another listen. |
If your prepared to spend the kinda of money the Sevens are and it sounds like you are, You would make the biggest mistake of your life if you don't give them your highest consideration in this decision. Just last night I was in MD at a dealer where Peter Mcgraff was using his hard drive to play tunes on a $500+k system including the Wilson XLF's, DCS Vilvaldi stack, Boulder latest amps and preamp and high end Nordost cabeling. I came home after the show and listenened to some of the same cuts of music albeit not on his HD and the Sevens are some much more dynamic,rich, full bodied with better timbre its not even close IMHO. If the only way you have heard them is in a hotel room at a show that is not properly set up. Come to Pa to my house and listen you will not be disapointed. Only a two hour drive from Newark. |
Matt
I curious why you eliminated the Vandy Sevens. Seems like the three you have chosen are not in the same league as the Sevens. |
Damn typos:
the top 3 drivers ON that narrow baffle.
Polymer would be a HOME run with better low end |
Polymer - amazing above the two 6" drivers. They would be a top contender if the base was better. Slightly lose, lack true impact, and just not up to the rest of that amazing speaker. A shame, because if they had a larger low end driver cabinet with more punch and extension they would be world class!!! The top 3 drivers ok that narrow baffle design are just magic though. So if your not looking for that low extension punch and imaging and proper tonality are of utmost importance then the MKs-X is a huge performer!!
Zellaton - wonderful speaker but same low frequency weaknesses in my opinion. For jazz, small orchestral, vocals, quartet, etc they are fast fast fast, accurate, musical and accurate. I was not engaged once during my listening session and the low frequency paucity turned me off. Again, more a matter of taste then quality.
Vivid - another great speaker but just never grabbed me in the right way. The non-nautilus design has a lot of rear firing drivers and needs a ton of space out into the room, and the nautilus design did everything well but never really wisped me away, to that lost in the music moment.
YG - truly a masterful creation. They do everything really well and nothing lacking. If my room were longer it would be in my top contenders. Imaging, impact, tone, dynamics, subtlety, engaging? All there. But if you look at the actual design of the speaker, they require you to sit far enough away to allow those drivers to properly integrate. And I felt that I couldn't get that distance in my room. More a decision of practicality then performance. That Sonja is a true statement product though. No doubt.
If the Kawero didn't have that brightness issue and I had a bigger room they would be an absolute top contender. Vivid & Zellaton no thanks, personal opinion. Polymer would be a joke run with better low end and YG are awesome but, I think, needed a longer room then I have. |
Heard the Goldmund in the city. Sounds best with Goldmund amps. Very good but not for me. That store had Kaiser, Raidho, Magico and Goldmund. I really liked the Kawero the best but they have 2 issues for me. First is that on certain tracks they get very bright. Like through my head bright. Where you frantically grab for the remote to turn it down bright. When that isn't happening they are truly stunning speakers. I don't know if I'm more sensitive to it then others, but I have now heard them in 4 different rooms including that store and 3 different shows. The same thing happened in all rooms with different equipment. The second issue is regarding design. They have a multi rear driver array which gives them incredible base extension. BUT, they need a LOT of room to really breath or they get flubby and lose. The manufacturer admitted that any closer then 4-5 feet from the front wall to rear of speaker is not ideal. My room doesn't afford me the luxury of getting the speaker out more home 3-4 feet off the front wall. So that and the brightness removed them from my list.
Acoustic zen are great speakers. I heard them at Axpona. They sounded great with tube gear, but nothing that took my breath away or caught my attention. Many speakers did that- very good but nothing that really set them apart from the rest.
Franco Serblin - nope. Never heard of them.
I heard the Boenicke W8SE+ At THE Newport with all Allnic amp/pre/front. About $150k worth of gear all said. They shined! I really enjoyed them. Like really. They caught my attention! And the fact that they are diminutive and gorgeous didn't hurt the lust factor. I actually went home and am trying to get one of my smaller local dealers to start carying them. With a variation in price from $8k-$18k depending on internal/external upgrades they are a wide approval factor dream speaker and worth the investment. All that said, they certainly are not in the same category as some of the $40-$100k contenders I was looking at. But I'd buy a pair for my family room in a heartbeat if I had the extra scratch!!! |
Wow, quite a list. Thanks for the reply.
What did you think of the Kawero, Polymer, Zellaton, YG and Vivid? Those are the ones that strike my fancy best from the list.
Any plans to audition the Goldmund Logos, Boenicke W8, Acoustic Zen Crescendo II, and Franco Serblin Ktemas? |
This is my list. It includes the speakers I put on my initial list of reference speakers that fit in my 15x18.5x9 foot room that I set out to hear, plus others that were not on my list but I was introduced to by friends or stores, or heard at shows. I did, obviously, not include the three finalists I listed above. I counted, and the list is closer to 35. Oops. And I might have forgotten a few, although I don't think so.
* - at dealer or friends house, properly set up
+ - at a show with a good setup
*+ - both
*+ Focal - Utopia Scala V2
*+ Wilson - Alexia
*+ Magico - Q3 & S5
*+ YG - Sonja 1.2 (without the bottom sub)
*+ Polymer - MKS-x
* Zellaton - Stage
+ Martin Logan - Neolith
* Peak Consult - Kepheus
* Kharma - Exquisite Midi S
*+ Rockport - Avior
* Estelon - XA
+ Kyron - Kronos complete system
*+ Kaiser - Kawero
+ Vandy - 7 mark 2
+ Von Schweikert - VR-55
+ Dynaudio- Evidence Platinum
*+ Kef - Blade
*+ Sonus Faber - Lilium/Stradavaria/Amati Futura
*+ TAD - Compact Reference
+ Scaena - The new one with the smaller woofer and 8 driver array.
+ Raidho - All of them. Don't like any but D1
*+ Lawrence Audio - Cello & Double Bass
* Joseph Audio - Pearl 3
+ Tidal - Contriva G2
+ Vivid - G1 & G2
* Stenheim - Alumine 3 way
+ Sadurni - Staccato horns
*+ Avantgarde - Duo Mezzo
+ Acapella Audio - Cellini
+ Audiomachina - Maestro S
*+ Tannoy- Kingdom Royal
+ JBL Synthesis - 1000
Heard just at shows and got enough to know "yes or no" but don't remember the model - Nola, Lansche, Eggleston, Meridian, Legacy
I have heard other speakers like : Langerton, USA Tube, Tyler, Westlake, Vapor, etc but the models I heard were too big for my room, so I didn't include them on my primary list.
I'm happy to share opinions on any of them. |
Matt, as you know I have liked the Hansen's when I've heard them in the past. It will be interesting to hear your thoughts on the Marten's. I have heard their little brother as they were on my short list when I got my Vandy Treo;s as I found a used pair that I could have extended for and put off other purchases. I need to get down to NJ to visit and hear your Perfect 8's. I have never heard them before and like everyone else, I like to keep up and know what's out there. Those 12k Vapors are also on my wanting to hear list. |
Matt all three speakers you picked are great. I think it will boil down to how well they mate with your equipment as well as your room. If you feel so inclined, you can describe the differences each bring to the table. |
Please list the other 17 spakers you ruled out... |
My experience with the Evolution Acoustics MM3 speaker taught me that a truly statement level world class speaker can have limitations if put into a room that doesn't suit its size; like putting a big block V8 in a Porsche 911. So my search started with creating a list of every top tier speaker I could think of that would properly fit and integrate into my 15x18.5x9 foot room. I then set out a plan to hear every damn one of them. The list was long and had some really eclectic speakers on it. I slowly worked my way down.
I have been listening for a while now. All the audio stores in Manhatten now know me and I have heard probably 20 or so top speakers. A major reason I have been going to all the shows is to hear what they have to offer.
I have narrowed down to three strong contenders. Very very different in method but all create the closest thing I have heard to totally immerse me in my music. It's interesting that two of my three options were not even on my initial list. Hansen was introduced to me when I went to listen to another brand and Perfect8 was discovered at THE Newport show where they really took my breath away. Each of the 3 seams to be amazing overal performers but each does have its own special flare and signature.
1) Hansen - Dragon Legend E
2) Marten - Coltrane Tenor
3) Perfect8 - The Point
I currently have a pair of Hansen The Prince E speakers on loan in my room, and I have arranged to borrow a pair of Marten Coltrane Tenors to directly compare the two in my room at the same time. I'd love to get The Point in also and do a three way final shootout, but I don't think that's going to be possible.....
I'll keep you posted. |
Matt, where are you with your speaker search? |
Jeff and Matt, it will be fun to hear your thoughts on the M1. I've heard it and was mightily impressed. |
Matt
Make sure the M1 is the latest Version 1.22 with the linear power supply or it wouldn't be worth you time and for sure is not a true idea of what the M1 sounds like. It is a major sound upgrade over the older version.
Jeff |
I can confirm it is the most recent version with the linear power supply. It is one of the units that showed at THE Newport. If I can play it right, I'm going to try to convince a local Allnic dealer to bring the Allnic DHT DAC to compare as well. 3 days: Bricasti M1, Allnic Dac, ODSE- 3 Pairs of ears.
I'll report when it happens. If it happens. |
Matt
Make sure the M1 is the latest Version 1.22 with the linear power supply or it wouldn't be worth you time and for sure is not a true idea of what the M1 sounds like. It is a major sound upgrade over the older version.
Jeff |
Matt
Make sure the M1 is the latest Version 1.22 with the linear power supply or it wouldn't be worth you time and for sure is not a true idea of what the M1 sounds like. It is a major sound upgrade over the older version.
Jeff |
Matt - will it be the latest version and already broken in? Looking forward to your impressions. |
I should be getting the Bricasti M1 in next week for a brief audition.
It will be nice to post a good ol DAC review again. |
I can't stop thinking about the sound from the two Perfect8 rooms at THE Newport show. I'm not sure which I liked better, The Cube or The Point. Both literally vanished in the room; I've never heard that happen before to that extend. Just wow. |
EA MM2 is great!!! Quite a Statement themself.
I heard both in the same room for 2 whole days... |
Matt, just sent you a message. |
CTsooner - to answer a question you asked in another thread in January that I just saw, no. I am not looking at the Stella Utopia any more. I think it would be my dream speaker, but it's just too big for my small to medium sized room. As I continue to treat, set up and tweak my room I realize that it is small for a truly ideal Statement level system, sigh. The Evolution MM3's are equally sensational but I just couldn't find the perfect spot for them in my room that I was happy with. I did get a 6'x6'x6' equilateral triangle settled sort of in the middle of the room to sound best. But it was nearfield and sounded more like I was wearing the speakers then listening to them. Just too big for my room. It taught me that I really need to respect my rooms size constraints to find the best for my room.
I'm going to post a brief speaker opinion on my virtual system thread. |
Mike Lavorgna did a great write up on the Sound Galleries room:
http://www.audiostream.com/content/lampizator-hq-player-audiopax-avante-garde-digital-done-right |
thanks Wisnon. I heard the GG/Antipodes room and it did sound wonderful. I'll look for the GG at the Newport show. Especially with the new DHT quad balanced option.
The new MSB V DAC is out now as well and looks to be a statement contender as well.
With my wonderful little ODSE I feel no pressure to upgrade. But it's always fun to look. |
Well this guy (Mike) was a Lampi doubter till he heard one and now straight away bought a Golden Gate. If you search the site you will see we had rollicking aruguments beforehand.
http://audioshark.org/lampizator-186/lampizator-big-7-review-7213.html
His latest GG Dac feedback (only 2 weeks old - and we all know those Mundorf caps take 4-5 months to break in) is here:
http://audioshark.org/lampizator-186/lampizator-golden-gate-7223-page16.html#post128035
"I know audio memory is very fickle, but I would venture a guess that with this tube combo and the Aurender N100H providing the sweet music, the Lampi PCM now is on par with the best I've heard....and you already know about the DSD....it sounds like nothing else digital, period."
Yes, Mike has heard the Berkeley Ref in his system (outstanding PCM Dac) as his pal lent him his for a few days and he has heard plentyin his system, as Mike is an unapologetic gear swapper.
So, yes, there is a lot of great gear out there, but I am telling you guys Lampi is waaaay up there.
Finally, I am getting jaw dropping feedback of the great sound by the Monaco "Sound Galleries" room in Munich, where they used a Lampi Big7 with Regen device with Uptone LPSU, a Windows10 CAPs Server (slightly OS optimised with i7 processor and top motherboard/battery powered SSDs) running HQ Playing upsampling all to DSD128, Corning Optical USB cable, Audiopax amps (3 pentodes in SE triode operation) and Avantegarde Duo speakers. They ran it in normal and Realtime priority modes and blew people away with the switch. Lots of engineers need to go scambling back to the drawing board. Details at the computeraudiophile forum and perhaps some writeup to come from Audiostream. |
Correct. My point was a fascination with the fact that the point in my room with the flattest frequency response will almost unquestionably not be a spot I would want to, or even could, sit. My guess is that the spot with the flattest response is either just up against the back wall or a bit behind the center of the room, about 5-6 feet off the ground.
Since my gravitation defying hover chair is broken and I don't want to sit 3 feet from my speakers then I'm obligated to find the next best spots. It's a simple matter of trial and error to find the best spot. But the complete vanishing of certain frequencies at certain heights and locations just screams how important room treatment and proper setup can be.
I just find it fascinating! |
It seems that the best outcome is when you can do a full frequency analysis based on test tones and a microphone set up in your listening position. That being said, you still need to use you ears to dial in the listening room. All rooms have "problems" and the question is the sound from your speakers musical? |
I just had a very humbling experience that we all intellectually know but rarely experience as dramatically as I did with the help of the Nordost System Set-Up and Tuning Disc.
The disc has a set of low frequency tones in both a slow sweep and individual tracks. Track 25 is a timed frequency sweep starting at exactly 20 seconds into the tracks and the second counter on the player corresponds to the frequency being played. It sweeps to 100hz I believe. The next tracks are individual frequency tracks from 18hz to 90Hz (21 total tracks).
Track 25 gave me a solid idea of how low my system actually plays. But the individual tracks proved to me just how important speaker and seat position are.....
I walked around the room while these tracks were playing and these tones went from completely absent to easily audible based on both my X/Y location in the room as well as my Z position. That phenomenon goes away around 57-63Hz in my room at which point is just becomes a matter of how loud or soft the tone is. But below 57, some tones were completely inaudible at several of my most sought after listening positions. It was amazing to see just how obviously significant speaker and listening position really is.
I found that my trust old Radio Shack SPL meter is helpful as well.
All should consider buying this, or a similar disc, to help determine if their speakers and listening partition are located as well as possible.
Cheers! |
Great challenge Matt....lol |
I'm also intrigued by some of the Synergistic more esoteric room treatments and they let you try and return at The Cable Company. But I need to stabilize more concrete factors before playing with doodads and thingies. All in due time. tweaks are the cutting edge of audio IMO and where all the fun is. Norman and others are foaming at the mouth for these doodads: http://www.stereotimes.com/accZiplex112811.shtml |
Hey Matt,quick question. How does your turntable/analog setup sound compared to your digital rig? Do you have a preference for one over the other? Thanks... |
My 8 meter Shunyata ZiTron Anaconda S XLR purchase was through The Cable Company. I do plan on using them again. Great service, great communication. I am a huge fan of Shunyata. I'd love to try their top tier speaker wire as their interconnects and power cords & conditioners really make me smile.
I'm also intrigued by some of the Synergistic more esoteric room treatments and they let you try and return at The Cable Company. But I need to stabilize more concrete factors before playing with doodads and thingies. All in due time.
Looking forward to the Irvine show. Looks like it will be rather large with 10 floors of rooms. I only have 2 days and can't imagine I'll be able to do it all in just 2 days. But it's a fun challenge. |
My point exactly Matt! My example is I was using an Audioquest Diamond USB cable, highly reviewed and from what was written a great sounding cable.. but I wasn't sure after a few months of listening.. A friend suggested that I try a Wireworld Platinum Eclipse.. Based on the reviews I figured the Wireworld wouldn't be as good a match, boy was I wrong.. In My System. the Wireworld trounced the Audioquest.. and sounded nothing like what various reviewers said about it.
Matt what I would strongly recommend is that once you settle on equipment more or less, that you borrow some cables from The Cable Company.. I think you'll find it really enlightening and far less expensive than buying, trying and then selling.. |
Lol. When I was in the Montreal show (less crowded and a LOT less formal) the reps in the room seamed to be very chatty. If I made a "negative" comment about a pair of speakers I didn't think was necessarily helping to make their electronics shine, they frequently thanked me for noticing and told me that they just get stuck with who they get stuck with, whether they feel the gear meshes well or not. |
Matt, I agree. One reason I stay with Audioquest is because that's what Richard Vandersteen uses with his speakers and it's what my dealer demo's them with. When we've changed cables or even cords, I've heard a huge drop off and that includes that 5K power cord I mentioned earlier. Dealers and manufacturers know what sounds best with their products most of the time, however I'm sure they show their gear with whatever company wants to work with them. I could be wrong, but I know a few who show with companies that they don't personally own themselves as it makes for good business. |
I just replaced a very expensive shotgun speaker cable run (Audience AU24-SE) with a fairly affordable single speaker cable run (Merrill Audio Anap) and gained a significant improvement in my system's performance. System matching is everything. Of course, there are probably super expensive cables that match my current/new cables personality that will give me even better performance; I just need to figure out what they are.
Obviously my AU24-SE cables have been reviewed exceedingly well and are recognized as being great cables. They just didn't mix as well with my room and combination of equipment.... |
Erikminer,
I agree, in many instances, not all. |
The problem with making cable pronouncements is that cables are very much equipment dependent... To say xyz cable beats abc cable is pointless unless the equipment used is exactly the same as ones own.. |
Hifial & Ctsooner,
I agree with you guys, but this is audio and people are going to be chasing the last detail like a dog chasing its tail. Not sure if the Vertere Pulse HD USB Cable has been compared to the $2,000 Synergistic Research USB Cable. Besides the Totaldac USB, it has bested the following according to AE. They also hail the Vertere Pulse HB Ethernet cable as knocking anything that came its way against as well as the Vertere phono cable. Also, the Vertere RG-1 Reference Turntable/Reference Tonearm has replaced Da Vinci Gabriel, Wave Kinetic NVS, Transrotor's flagship and several Durand Telos in some systems according AE. I am not endorsing Vertere products, but they are worth checking out, and I would give them a listen if I am in the market for any for any of these products.
1. Absolue Creations TIM Crystal Dreamline Plus/ Reference USB
2. Siltech Double Crown Golden Universal USB
3. Light Harmonic LightSpeed USB cable |
