IME, the more resolute the speakers are, the more flaws are revealed.
Taking your complaint, it goes along with my experience with my own speakers (the Joseph's you didn't care for at the store). When music went from a soft to loud sound, or a hot vocal, the speakers poured it all out and revealed I had an issue. That issue was SHOUT.. So in my case, it was that the speakers did not compress under the stress, they allowed the system to tell the truth. I also thought the speakers were to blame, when in fact, they were telling me something needed attention.
I went to the Totaldac Server, and all my problems were solved. I actually got more dynamic range now, that maintains composure instead of farting out, because the server does not fall on its @$$ when the demand is there, like my hotrod Mac Mini did. My system never shouts at me now.
Not saying this is absolute and what you are experiencing, but this did fix my issue.
Hope you get there. Sounds like the Dyn's are everything else you want. |
Matt, good luck with the DX. I have been a very happy owner of DS Reference for over an year and it is a great product. One important point, the server shall be on for at least 40 hours before it reaches optimum performance. In fact, Mark Jenkins recommends to keep it on all the time. |
Hi Matt, believe it or not, I had completely forgotten that Muzik in your room were overloading the bass... Perhaps I'm starting to misfold proteins in the brain *grins!*
Regardless of speakers brand and model, both Kevin Wolff of Vienna Acoustics North America (VANA) and Rod Tomson of Soundings in Denver assert that almost any room can achieve excellent sound if speakers placement is performed by a professional with the VA/Sumiko method.... Variously called Master, Masterset, or Master Set. The process is unfortunately not documented particularly well in the wild, but is sold as a service by some Sumiko and VA dealers like Soundings... It certainly worked fantastically in my own loft to eliminate some residual shoutiness and mid lower bass overload... On the other hand, my loft is essentially 16 x 30 ft or so, and is far from approximating a square. Furthermore, the great success in my loft cannot imply that a generalization is a safe bet.
On a different track, is it possible that your now more reflecting floor might be a contributing factor to the Dynaudio shoutiness?
G. |
I do agree with Paul that your source needs to be upgraded given the caliber of your system, but its not the source of the current problem. Guido's suggestion is a good one: put a dense piece of carpeting at the first reflection point on the floor. I am not sure that's the fix either, but time will tell... |
Another potential issue is the the Esotar tweeter is notorious for being uber revealing and pointy under the wrong conditions.... |
TOO bad you cant consider the flagship DYNA AUDIO EVIDENSE PLATINUM (due to its rear ports ). They are truly a remarkable design. Only 8.5 inches in width, but standing 76 inches tall, they totally disappear in the room, when properly implemented. The dual Esotar tweeters are very clean, and airy sounding with ZERO fatigue factor (no shout at all).
Cheers....... |
Musicmann1 - I have heard the Evidence Platinum. I didn't love it. That's why I was skeptical about the Consequence but I was wrong; the CU had everything the Evidence lacked. Interestingly, the Evidence Platinum is advertised as their flagship speaker but it costs ten grand LESS then the Consequence Ultimate. They market the Consequence Ultimate a different way since its been in essentially constant production since 1984. I think the CU is their finest product.
I need to clarify that the shout I am hearing has not been heard in any other room I listened to it in (and I heard it in 2 very different rooms at the store) nor has it been identified by an other reviewer. I am convinced it is a byproduct of my room or breakin. We shall see.
Agear - thanks. That's good to know. |
Thanks Paul - that's VERY helpful and I think that's my issue. The shout is not all the time and it's not on every track. It's almost exclusively vocals (not all vocals, only sometimes) although I get it on occasion on clarinet or oboe. It almost sounds like clipping or dynamic compression which would go along with what you said. I'm going to pull out my trusty LP's and do a little experiment....
Abe - I haven't tried the DX enough to compare it honestly. I am thinking on first listen, that surprisingly my low frequencies are a bit tighter and better controlled with my Mac mini. The soundstage seams more open with the DX and there is a layer of detail and complexity that I think the DX is revealing. But that's with like 45 minutes of listening time. And thanks for the heads up on running time. I'll leave it on 24/7.
The DX is intriguing. Let's see how it compares with more time. |
The DX should come around nicely. It, along with the Totaldac Server, are the only 2 that I have heard where it doesn't matter if you play Flac or WAV.. It all sounds the same. EXCELLENT! This is processing power at its finest. There is a warm up (for a day or so) involved with this stuff, so I believe tomorrow will be a new day with the DX.
You should also try the Antipodes Reference Cabling. That is what I use here, and I haven't beat it yet. Mr Jenkins has some good ears man.
Paul |
The Tenor's are pretty see through so I would be surprised if this was a source issue. Furthermore, Steve Nugent uses a modded mini and am swears by it. His dac has a built reclocket so that is another ripple... |
Matt, one last point about DX. It has 2 USB ports for audio: one is with 5v on and another one is with 5v off. Some DACs do not need power signal to be fed through USB and in this case you can use the 5v off port, which should sound better. You need to experiment. |
Didn't realize the DYNA AUDIO CONSEQUENCE ULTIMATE was 95k MSRP (the EVIDENSE PLATINUMS are 85k MSRP). At any rate I am sure its a superb speaker. You probably just need to play with room placement a little more.
Cheers........ |
Another speaker you might want to consider is the KARMA ELEGANCE DB 11 S, 55K MSRP, I believe. Reasonably efficient and is supposed to be a very wide band speaker with a full, rich mid band. I believe the port comes out the bottom, although not sure on this. There is a new review in the latest ABSOLUTE SOUND.
Cheers....... |
MusicMann - I was under the impression that the Evidence was $60k. The Consequence are $70k retail. I stand corrected. But I was not blown away with the Evidence and I heard it twice.
And the Kharma Exquisite speaker line is exceptional but rear ported and thus not a good choice for my room. The Midi Exquisite blew me away, but just wouldn't work for me.
I may end up admitting that the CU doesn't work for me after burn in and all. I have had many exceptional speakers in my room with my current gear and have never experienced a shout before. Which tells me that, logically, it's got to be the speaker. But I don't want to believe that.
I'm going to hook up the Isis speakers today and I'll let yo know my impressions.
I'm also going to bring the CU out into my open basement area and try them there to see if there is still a shout. |
Back from a long trip to Japan and a long weekend in Knoxville to see my OU Sooners win a big one.
Just catching up it seems like the room is rearing it's ugly head again. Matt, get Johnny over there to figure out the fix. I'd be surprised if he can't get it done, if you indeed figure out it's the room.
Glad that you did the M1 vs OSDE showdown. I have really liked the M1 when I've heard it, but after listening to so many DAC's I still come back to the OSDE also. I have Steve's back up Mac Mini and so far I have liked it a bit better than all the servers I've had in my system. I have a feeling that will be changing in the next year or so, but prices are going to need to come down too for me to make a change. I still need to get a drive unit and HD to rip my CD's. Any suggestions there will be looked at as I'm finally ready to rip everything as I have upgraded my portable system this week too and I want to be able to copy my music to whatever portable DAP/iphone 6s Plus I go with.
This thread really shows the differences in speaker design. We all hear differently and it shows in the posts in this thread. It seems like we are all grouped into specific types/manufacturers. I give Matt credit for not being tied into one specific and listening with an open mind/ears.
I'm just glad to be back home and getting to listen to my Vandersteen/Ayre/OSDE, Mac Mini/Basis TT sytems with AQ cables and SR Powercell. Proud to own what I do, but I realize that I can get even better sound if I have a lot more money (I don't). Most of you guys are playing on a different level than 99% of us, but after so many months and posts, it sure seems like it comes back to source and room. Without those two things, you won't get the most out of anything. Thanks again Matt. |
Not sure how the feet on the Consequence attach, however if they screw on, you might want to try some STILLPOINT ULTRA 5;S and try slanting the speaker slightly back, so that the bottom of the speaker is slightly elevated (slanted) toward your ears. There may be some interference going on with the floor and the two drivers that are closest to the floor. Just a thought.......
Cheers.. |
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Agear - I want to give them 2-3 days to settle. But here is a quick impression. If speakers were like electronics then the CU would be on the solid state side and the Isis would be SET tubes with base. Musical, warm, complex and layered. Like drinking your favorite red wine that you know and love instead of trying the hosts super expensive '47 Chateu Expensivo. I don't want to say they lack detail and high end extension, because they don't. But they don't express accuracy overtly; it's subtle. It's refined accuracy. They sound like they use a big soft dome tweeter that's horn loaded. It's like getting hugged by a huge soft cuddly teddy bear.
They are big and they look like an old tube RCA tube TV set. But they don't do anything bad in my room. No nodes activated, a very subtle shout seldom comes out but does show that it has a horn loaded tweeter.
The Tenor are smack dab in between the Isis and the CU. a world class system can easily be built around any of the three. I need to figure out which works best with what I have. I feel, on first impression, that I would need to reconsider my amp/preamp if I went with the Isis.
I hate giving such stark first impressions but the Isis seam easy to read and very obviously built to accomplish a certain task, to sound sweat and intricate, like a fine dessert wine. I can see their size making room setup tough at a show, but the speaker has a sound that clearly grabs people from the hallway and says " come in and sit. Relax and take a break from the insanity of high fi and let me play you some music."
I can say that the more I listen to them, the more I want to listen to more music. But they make me feel just a little bit stoned and a little bit like I have earplugs in my ears. |
To be honest, that sounds like my cup of tea. I have a lot of bank friends in Charlotte who like big dollar Cabs from Cali that kick you in the balls. I prefer a more earthy, subtle Bordeaux. Bob says Trenner is something to buy when you are done with hifi. That being said, they will obviously need a few days to sing. I don't necessarily think you would need to alter your electronics. I do like the retro aesthetics (as does my wife).
The real problem with speakers (as one wise and older phile once told me) is you have to live with them for a year or more to really properly evaluate them. The real test is whether you sit and listen or fidget and fiddle. What a hobby..... |
09-20-15: Mattnshilp
....but the speaker has a sound that clearly grabs people from the hallway and says " come in and sit. Relax and take a break from the insanity of high fi and let me play you some music."
I can say that the more I listen to them, the more I want to listen to more music. But they make me feel just a little bit stoned.... After almost 50 pages of frenetic, Brownian motion, I think something like this speaker may be precisely what the doctor ordered for ze doctor.... |
Abe - how do I assign music folders on my Mac to play on the DX??
I have folders with music files and my iTunes folder that I want to assign to the DX so I can play them and I just can't figure out how to do that. |
Agear - there is a rolled off top end that makes me feel like I'm missing something. Like I said, it's like I have earplugs in and just can't hear those top registers.
Your statement is interesting about more seasoned, more mature listeners gravitating toward the Isis. With the older person's hearing attenuated in the upper frequencies it makes sense that those listeners would be most drawn to a speaker that is very musical and lacks extension since they won't hear the deficit. It deserves 2-3 days of burn in and way more placement manipulation. But I can easily see it being an end of search speaker for the more seasoned listener. |
It's not so much about age related maturity but burnout with the hobby. I have older friends or friends with hearing loss who tend to favor speakers that sizzle. That aside, the Isis does extend out to 40kHz so not much is "theoretically" missing. It would be interesting to try some Starsound Audio products underneath your speakers. I have farted around with their products, and one of their Apprentice stands made a muddy sounding vintage pair of Pioneer speakers sound like a 10K audiophile speaker (according to a speaker designer who visited my room recently). |
" Trenner is something to buy when you are done with Hifi"
Andrew that sums up my impression of their appeal as well. They get you directly involved with the music and leave the nervous compulsive behavior to most other speakers. It seems the builder understands the importance of emotion and connecting to music rather than analysis of it. |
Matt,
I believe your admittedly early listening impressions have uncovered the instrinsic character and strength of this speaker. It will only improved with time IMHO. |
Matt, are you using points underneath the Isis? |
Agear - The distributor suggests small wood blocks. Not points. So they are on small wood blocks.
I played with the placement based on his suggestions and they have opened up some. I also think running them in has helped. I'm going to hold off until tomorrow or Wednesday for real impressions. |
I think they should start to breathe more after a few days.... |
Matt, I have never used Antipodes with ITunes, so I wouldn't know. Please, download the user reference guide from the Antipodes site: http://www.antipodesaudio.com/ref_guide.pdf
Page 10 shall explain how to do it. |
DAC update - i tried the Allnic D5000 today and it needs to be re-tubed. The bias was off and the bass in the right speaker flubbled and broke up badly. I can hear it has potential, but it didn't sound right from the moment I started using it and then the sound broke up badly, and i pulled it. I have contacted the dealer, who is a very good guy, and he will be coming over to re-tube it later this week (hopefully).
I am waiting on tech support for the DX to learn how to access my music collection on my Mac from the DX. I do not want to copy my entire collection onto the DX since thats not where it will live… I can't compare the Mac and the DX until i know how to do this.
The Isis is settling in nicely. It is showing me a massive soundstage that is deep, wide, tall and all around amazing; one of the best I have heard. Instruments within the soundstage are properly placed with the correct presence, size and scale. There is definitely a recognizable sound to the Isis, or lack of a sound as the case may be. I see thats its not really rolled off but it doesn't highlight the highs the same way my CU do. The distributor suggested that my listening position may be low which is accentuating the mids and lows while time delaying the highs enough to make them sound slightly laid back in comparison. I'm going to play with rake angle a bit to see what it can do.
I still think it sounds like the SET of the speaker world, an 845 SET speaker. LOL. It has luscious mids and gentle, non obtrusive but accurate highs with complex, dynamic lows that hit hard and fast. My neighbor may actually buy the demo pair when he comes over later this week, which will save me return freight costs. hehe... |
09-21-15: Mattnshilp
The Isis is settling in nicely. It is showing me a massive soundstage that is deep, wide, tall and all around amazing; one of the best I have heard. Instruments within the soundstage are properly placed with the correct presence, size and scale. There is definitely a recognizable sound to the Isis, or lack of a sound as the case may be. I see thats its not really rolled off but it doesn't highlight the highs the same way my CU do. The distributor suggested that my listening position may be low which is accentuating the mids and lows while time delaying the highs enough to make them sound slightly laid back in comparison. I'm going to play with rake angle a bit to see what it can do.
I still think it sounds like the SET of the speaker world, an 845 SET speaker. LOL. It has luscious mids and gentle, non obtrusive but accurate highs with complex, dynamic lows that hit hard and fast. My neighbor may actually buy the demo pair when he comes over later this week, which will save me return freight costs. hehe... What is not to like there? Give them a few more days and they should sound spectacular. May not want to pawn them off on the neighbor.... |
No more Shout. The shout is out.
Just after I put the Isis in I pulled some of my newer diffusers out because I thought they were over-diffusing (I don't think thats a real term) and I didn't like what they were doing. I just left one diffuser each at the four side wall first reflection points (each is 24" wide by 48" tall) - 2 on each side basically. . I had 2 more on each side wall basically covering the entire side wall from next to the speakers back to the opposite speaker 1st reflection point.I thought it was too much… The room sounded better with the extra ones out. I dialed in the Isis a bit more based on the distributor's suggestion and had to push my mono blocks together a bit more to get the speakers a little closer together. It was starting to sound really good so I figured it would be a good time to bring the Consequence Ultimates back in and compare them briefly before letting the Isis cook for another day or so.
When I put the CU back in, I placed them in the new location of the Isis (4" closer on each side (8' closer together overall) and 1-2" closer to my listening position. I'm not sure if it was the position adjustment or the removal of the extra diffusers (which is what I think did it), but I found that the CU were playing much louder at the same volume setting so I needed to turn the volume on the pre-amp down to achieve a comfortable listening level. The combination of a lower volume magnitude (and subsequently less gain from the pre-amp) and the position change has all but eliminated the CU shout. Its still there a bit, but it's clearly a room interaction and not a speaker byproduct. I had a 45 minute wonderful listening session with the CU and then put the Isis back in to finish cooking.
But with the shout gone, I can actually compare apples to oranges without one of the fruits having bugs in it…. |
09-21-15: Mattnshilp
No more Shout. The shout is out.
....Its still there a bit, but it's clearly a room interaction and not a speaker byproduct. So as long as your system does not spit out more than 85 dB there is no shout? One of the guys who helped with my room mentioned your soffits and their 90 degree angles and potential phase issues that cannot be totally ameliorated by speaker positioning, etc. He said the taller the speaker, the more of a problem it is.... |
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A true classic Agear! Beethoven only wished he could write quality tunes like that! |
I think it would be a good test track for RMAF.... |
Loving this thread. Matt, glad you are getting so close. It's funny as I was dealing with much of the same in my system switch. Once I put the new Ayre Twenty in, I realized that I didn't have to chose between tube sound or SS sound at all. I'm sure there are other electronics and speakers that will do the same thing. I can promise you that if you think you are missing something, that you are in your head and won't be happy for the long run. You'll always sit and say "what am I missing or where is that high end etc". I agree that a very long audition is the only true way to know, but we know that's not real. |
09-22-15: Ctsooner
I can promise you that if you think you are missing something, that you are in your head and won't be happy for the long run. You'll always sit and say "what am I missing or where is that high end etc". I agree that a very long audition is the only true way to know, but we know that's not real. The Isis is flat out to over 40kHz, so I doubt anything is missing from acousto-electric standpoint. It's more of a setup/room/speaker issue. For me personally, shout, bite, or lack of time/phase alignment leading to a non-cohesive or non-holistic presentation and an insidious and subtle fatigue is far more important issue. Beware speakers and/or equipment that are "impressive" or "spectacular" at first blush. That is the premise behind living with things and finding out their personalities. Tricky hobby....:/ |
Lack of highs can sometimes be heard as lack of distortion or noise taking an unwanted free ride along with the musical waveform. Perhaps a case of mistaken identity. Maybe your hearing a more pure and non polluted signal coming from this pair of speakers. Tom |
Gear, I don't doubt it. That said, he didn't even bring the Vandersteen 7's into his room and they too are flat all the way out (all of Vandersteens are). They have near pistonic drivers and sound the way you mention you like things, but he didn't go for them either. I too feel most things are too bright and get fatigued very easily. You've seen my posts elsewhere. So many companies tip their highs a DB or two and that's because at first blush they sound extended, but the reality is, they are just distorted and not flat. Flat to some is boring. To most reading this thread, it's nirvana. |
Ctsooner, the driver compliments and designs are very different on the two speakers. The Isis uses a titanium compression tweeter and not a soft dome like the 7. It also does not uses power bass drivers. So who knows.... |
Guys, this is not a matter of flat vs not flat. We are talking about crazy expensive, top tier product in all directions. I'm sure all of them are "flat" from the sublimely low frequency to the ridiculous ultra sonic. It's not a matter of specs, and I don't believe it's a matter of distortion. Every speaker I have heard, tried, or purchased is considered state of the art, whether it was to my taste or not. To say that the Avalom Isis or the Vandy 7 or the Dynaudio Comsequence has more distortion or isn't flat or is in some way colored is pretty much ridiculous. These speakers are all designed to the best of their perspective companies abilities with their particular take on Uber Speaker design, acoustics, psycho-acoustics, phase/time alignment management, voicing, etc. Add to that the fact that even the worlds perfect speaker will sound totally different in my room versus your room and it makes the whole damn process that much harder.
The Trenner & Friedl Isis is simply voiced differently then the CU. It has different priorities, completely different design and different psycho-acoustic properties. As a result, it does 28hz to 40khz flat and throws a soundstage you can drive an RV through. It's voiced a certain way and accomplishes it's particular goal with great success. It does this with simplicity, elegance, refinement and is utterly understated. It is the warm cabin on top of the mountain with a roaring fire, a well broken in leather chair by the blazing hearth and a glass of Cognac VSOP that is that perfect temperature to simply float from the glass and evaporate relaxation onto your palate.
The CU is a masterpiece in engineering and complexity of design, crossover implementation and artistic beauty. It applied over 30 years of continued success from a brilliantly unorthodox design and improved upon it. It is not understated nor is it overzealous. Although brimming with drivers, it's nigh impossible to identify anything other then a unity of sound, a meticulous amalgam of perfection that paints a picture as if from a single brush stroke. Yes, the colors are more vibrant then those chosen by Trenner & Friedl but equates to comparing the spectacular colors of a sunset over the ocean as the sun descends just to the horizon to the majestic flow of heather and wheat during a gentle breeze at the base of a grey and white mountain range of breathtaking beauty. One is simply not better then the other. They both touch the sole and enraptured the spirit.
It's a nice place to be- deciding between those vistas. No bad choices, only choices.
An extended audition is truly the best way to tell. I would call an extended audition a purchase. The beauty of it is that if one finds its not all it was initially, the other option is just a sale and a purchase away.... |
CTSooner - my final decision against the Vandy 7 had to do with how their low frequency driver is implemented. I understand all the tech behind the low frequency signal attenuation prior to amplification and the fact that it "theoretically" conveys the voice of the amp to the woofer but I don't believe it to be 100% effective in real life application. It works, but it's best implementation would be with Vandys own amps. I wasn't ready to give up completely the magic that comes from my Burmester Amps in those lower frequencies. I also didn't love the down firing, side ported design. I heard it and felt it but I did not get that direct radiation I prefer. In the end, It was just a matter of implementation and preference. They are sensational without doubt, but I found other choices suited my tastes more. |
Matt, I think the discussion was circling around the perception of the Isis as "rolled off" and what that actually meant in terms of engineering. The fact that the room played a roll is very interesting. Still more time on the stove for the Isis obviously.
Manufacturers of electronics regularly quote distortion specs. Speaker manufacturers do not. There is a reason for that. They are distortion machines...:) |
It seems clear both the Trenner- Friedl and Dynaudio are world class speakers. As mentioned before, different design philosophy yielding different sonic characters (as one would expect). Matt's earlier amplifier analogy and follow up detailed listening comparison sums it up effectively. Both superb speakers. One appeals more(emotionally) to the heart and soul, the other has outstanding cerebral appeal without being guilty of analytical sterility. So it's a matter of which wears better long term? A listener's inherent bias/taste will determine that. This speaker journey has been fun and interesting to follow. |
Hmmmm... Matt, You seem to be in the horrid position of having fallen in love with two divine girls! ... Oops, I meant speakers!
Which one will be your girlfriend... Double Oops, so sooorry, I meant... Which one will you choose?
May be... Marry both?!
Aloysius
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09-23-15: Guidocorona
Hmmmm... Matt, You seem to be in the horrid position of having fallen in love with two divine girls! ... Oops, I meant speakers!
Which one will be your girlfriend... Double Oops, so sooorry, I meant... Which one will you choose?
May be... Marry both?! Guido, I am a little surprised. You usually carry yourself with such grace and decorum, but.... A few days ago, I accused someone of being an amplifier polygamist on Whatsbestforum. I am not sure Matt fits that mold. He seems more of a speed dater.... |
Ah Guido, I can't afford a wife and a mistress. But I want to give both of my lusty wenches the opportunity to settle in and move past the first few dates entering into phase 2, really getting to know to her, or them.
Agear - speed dating sounds fun but has its costs. I do, admittedly, like to taste everything on the buffet table before going back for a big helping of seconds of my few favorites. |
Gear, must be the Summer work-stressers getting on to me... Mine was only a very mild encouragement for Matt to consider audiophilic poly-somethingery or rather.... I'll be fully PC again tomorrow *grins!* |
Matt, any update on the Antipodes? Have you downloaded the manual? Did it help wth the iTunes issue?
Thanks. |
