Lack of highs can sometimes be heard as lack of distortion or noise taking an unwanted free ride along with the musical waveform. Perhaps a case of mistaken identity. Maybe your hearing a more pure and non polluted signal coming from this pair of speakers. Tom
Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD
Hi All.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
4,489 responses Add your response
09-22-15: Ctsooner The Isis is flat out to over 40kHz, so I doubt anything is missing from acousto-electric standpoint. It's more of a setup/room/speaker issue. For me personally, shout, bite, or lack of time/phase alignment leading to a non-cohesive or non-holistic presentation and an insidious and subtle fatigue is far more important issue. Beware speakers and/or equipment that are "impressive" or "spectacular" at first blush. That is the premise behind living with things and finding out their personalities. Tricky hobby....:/ |
Loving this thread. Matt, glad you are getting so close. It's funny as I was dealing with much of the same in my system switch. Once I put the new Ayre Twenty in, I realized that I didn't have to chose between tube sound or SS sound at all. I'm sure there are other electronics and speakers that will do the same thing. I can promise you that if you think you are missing something, that you are in your head and won't be happy for the long run. You'll always sit and say "what am I missing or where is that high end etc". I agree that a very long audition is the only true way to know, but we know that's not real. |
I think that it will come down to whichever speaker can FAITHFULLY REPRODUCE this fine NJ anthem from the 80s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBShN8qT4lk |
09-21-15: Mattnshilp So as long as your system does not spit out more than 85 dB there is no shout? One of the guys who helped with my room mentioned your soffits and their 90 degree angles and potential phase issues that cannot be totally ameliorated by speaker positioning, etc. He said the taller the speaker, the more of a problem it is.... |
No more Shout. The shout is out. Just after I put the Isis in I pulled some of my newer diffusers out because I thought they were over-diffusing (I don't think thats a real term) and I didn't like what they were doing. I just left one diffuser each at the four side wall first reflection points (each is 24" wide by 48" tall) - 2 on each side basically. . I had 2 more on each side wall basically covering the entire side wall from next to the speakers back to the opposite speaker 1st reflection point.I thought it was too much… The room sounded better with the extra ones out. I dialed in the Isis a bit more based on the distributor's suggestion and had to push my mono blocks together a bit more to get the speakers a little closer together. It was starting to sound really good so I figured it would be a good time to bring the Consequence Ultimates back in and compare them briefly before letting the Isis cook for another day or so. When I put the CU back in, I placed them in the new location of the Isis (4" closer on each side (8' closer together overall) and 1-2" closer to my listening position. I'm not sure if it was the position adjustment or the removal of the extra diffusers (which is what I think did it), but I found that the CU were playing much louder at the same volume setting so I needed to turn the volume on the pre-amp down to achieve a comfortable listening level. The combination of a lower volume magnitude (and subsequently less gain from the pre-amp) and the position change has all but eliminated the CU shout. Its still there a bit, but it's clearly a room interaction and not a speaker byproduct. I had a 45 minute wonderful listening session with the CU and then put the Isis back in to finish cooking. But with the shout gone, I can actually compare apples to oranges without one of the fruits having bugs in it…. |
09-21-15: Mattnshilp What is not to like there? Give them a few more days and they should sound spectacular. May not want to pawn them off on the neighbor.... |
DAC update - i tried the Allnic D5000 today and it needs to be re-tubed. The bias was off and the bass in the right speaker flubbled and broke up badly. I can hear it has potential, but it didn't sound right from the moment I started using it and then the sound broke up badly, and i pulled it. I have contacted the dealer, who is a very good guy, and he will be coming over to re-tube it later this week (hopefully). I am waiting on tech support for the DX to learn how to access my music collection on my Mac from the DX. I do not want to copy my entire collection onto the DX since thats not where it will live… I can't compare the Mac and the DX until i know how to do this. The Isis is settling in nicely. It is showing me a massive soundstage that is deep, wide, tall and all around amazing; one of the best I have heard. Instruments within the soundstage are properly placed with the correct presence, size and scale. There is definitely a recognizable sound to the Isis, or lack of a sound as the case may be. I see thats its not really rolled off but it doesn't highlight the highs the same way my CU do. The distributor suggested that my listening position may be low which is accentuating the mids and lows while time delaying the highs enough to make them sound slightly laid back in comparison. I'm going to play with rake angle a bit to see what it can do. I still think it sounds like the SET of the speaker world, an 845 SET speaker. LOL. It has luscious mids and gentle, non obtrusive but accurate highs with complex, dynamic lows that hit hard and fast. My neighbor may actually buy the demo pair when he comes over later this week, which will save me return freight costs. hehe... |
" Trenner is something to buy when you are done with Hifi" Andrew that sums up my impression of their appeal as well. They get you directly involved with the music and leave the nervous compulsive behavior to most other speakers. It seems the builder understands the importance of emotion and connecting to music rather than analysis of it. |
It's not so much about age related maturity but burnout with the hobby. I have older friends or friends with hearing loss who tend to favor speakers that sizzle. That aside, the Isis does extend out to 40kHz so not much is "theoretically" missing. It would be interesting to try some Starsound Audio products underneath your speakers. I have farted around with their products, and one of their Apprentice stands made a muddy sounding vintage pair of Pioneer speakers sound like a 10K audiophile speaker (according to a speaker designer who visited my room recently). |
Agear - there is a rolled off top end that makes me feel like I'm missing something. Like I said, it's like I have earplugs in and just can't hear those top registers. Your statement is interesting about more seasoned, more mature listeners gravitating toward the Isis. With the older person's hearing attenuated in the upper frequencies it makes sense that those listeners would be most drawn to a speaker that is very musical and lacks extension since they won't hear the deficit. It deserves 2-3 days of burn in and way more placement manipulation. But I can easily see it being an end of search speaker for the more seasoned listener. |
09-20-15: Mattnshilp After almost 50 pages of frenetic, Brownian motion, I think something like this speaker may be precisely what the doctor ordered for ze doctor.... |
To be honest, that sounds like my cup of tea. I have a lot of bank friends in Charlotte who like big dollar Cabs from Cali that kick you in the balls. I prefer a more earthy, subtle Bordeaux. Bob says Trenner is something to buy when you are done with hifi. That being said, they will obviously need a few days to sing. I don't necessarily think you would need to alter your electronics. I do like the retro aesthetics (as does my wife). The real problem with speakers (as one wise and older phile once told me) is you have to live with them for a year or more to really properly evaluate them. The real test is whether you sit and listen or fidget and fiddle. What a hobby..... |
Agear - I want to give them 2-3 days to settle. But here is a quick impression. If speakers were like electronics then the CU would be on the solid state side and the Isis would be SET tubes with base. Musical, warm, complex and layered. Like drinking your favorite red wine that you know and love instead of trying the hosts super expensive '47 Chateu Expensivo. I don't want to say they lack detail and high end extension, because they don't. But they don't express accuracy overtly; it's subtle. It's refined accuracy. They sound like they use a big soft dome tweeter that's horn loaded. It's like getting hugged by a huge soft cuddly teddy bear. They are big and they look like an old tube RCA tube TV set. But they don't do anything bad in my room. No nodes activated, a very subtle shout seldom comes out but does show that it has a horn loaded tweeter. The Tenor are smack dab in between the Isis and the CU. a world class system can easily be built around any of the three. I need to figure out which works best with what I have. I feel, on first impression, that I would need to reconsider my amp/preamp if I went with the Isis. I hate giving such stark first impressions but the Isis seam easy to read and very obviously built to accomplish a certain task, to sound sweat and intricate, like a fine dessert wine. I can see their size making room setup tough at a show, but the speaker has a sound that clearly grabs people from the hallway and says " come in and sit. Relax and take a break from the insanity of high fi and let me play you some music." I can say that the more I listen to them, the more I want to listen to more music. But they make me feel just a little bit stoned and a little bit like I have earplugs in my ears. |
Not sure how the feet on the Consequence attach, however if they screw on, you might want to try some STILLPOINT ULTRA 5;S and try slanting the speaker slightly back, so that the bottom of the speaker is slightly elevated (slanted) toward your ears. There may be some interference going on with the floor and the two drivers that are closest to the floor. Just a thought....... Cheers.. |
Back from a long trip to Japan and a long weekend in Knoxville to see my OU Sooners win a big one. Just catching up it seems like the room is rearing it's ugly head again. Matt, get Johnny over there to figure out the fix. I'd be surprised if he can't get it done, if you indeed figure out it's the room. Glad that you did the M1 vs OSDE showdown. I have really liked the M1 when I've heard it, but after listening to so many DAC's I still come back to the OSDE also. I have Steve's back up Mac Mini and so far I have liked it a bit better than all the servers I've had in my system. I have a feeling that will be changing in the next year or so, but prices are going to need to come down too for me to make a change. I still need to get a drive unit and HD to rip my CD's. Any suggestions there will be looked at as I'm finally ready to rip everything as I have upgraded my portable system this week too and I want to be able to copy my music to whatever portable DAP/iphone 6s Plus I go with. This thread really shows the differences in speaker design. We all hear differently and it shows in the posts in this thread. It seems like we are all grouped into specific types/manufacturers. I give Matt credit for not being tied into one specific and listening with an open mind/ears. I'm just glad to be back home and getting to listen to my Vandersteen/Ayre/OSDE, Mac Mini/Basis TT sytems with AQ cables and SR Powercell. Proud to own what I do, but I realize that I can get even better sound if I have a lot more money (I don't). Most of you guys are playing on a different level than 99% of us, but after so many months and posts, it sure seems like it comes back to source and room. Without those two things, you won't get the most out of anything. Thanks again Matt. |
MusicMann - I was under the impression that the Evidence was $60k. The Consequence are $70k retail. I stand corrected. But I was not blown away with the Evidence and I heard it twice. And the Kharma Exquisite speaker line is exceptional but rear ported and thus not a good choice for my room. The Midi Exquisite blew me away, but just wouldn't work for me. I may end up admitting that the CU doesn't work for me after burn in and all. I have had many exceptional speakers in my room with my current gear and have never experienced a shout before. Which tells me that, logically, it's got to be the speaker. But I don't want to believe that. I'm going to hook up the Isis speakers today and I'll let yo know my impressions. I'm also going to bring the CU out into my open basement area and try them there to see if there is still a shout. |
Another speaker you might want to consider is the KARMA ELEGANCE DB 11 S, 55K MSRP, I believe. Reasonably efficient and is supposed to be a very wide band speaker with a full, rich mid band. I believe the port comes out the bottom, although not sure on this. There is a new review in the latest ABSOLUTE SOUND. Cheers....... |
The DX should come around nicely. It, along with the Totaldac Server, are the only 2 that I have heard where it doesn't matter if you play Flac or WAV.. It all sounds the same. EXCELLENT! This is processing power at its finest. There is a warm up (for a day or so) involved with this stuff, so I believe tomorrow will be a new day with the DX. You should also try the Antipodes Reference Cabling. That is what I use here, and I haven't beat it yet. Mr Jenkins has some good ears man. Paul |
Thanks Paul - that's VERY helpful and I think that's my issue. The shout is not all the time and it's not on every track. It's almost exclusively vocals (not all vocals, only sometimes) although I get it on occasion on clarinet or oboe. It almost sounds like clipping or dynamic compression which would go along with what you said. I'm going to pull out my trusty LP's and do a little experiment.... Abe - I haven't tried the DX enough to compare it honestly. I am thinking on first listen, that surprisingly my low frequencies are a bit tighter and better controlled with my Mac mini. The soundstage seams more open with the DX and there is a layer of detail and complexity that I think the DX is revealing. But that's with like 45 minutes of listening time. And thanks for the heads up on running time. I'll leave it on 24/7. The DX is intriguing. Let's see how it compares with more time. |
Musicmann1 - I have heard the Evidence Platinum. I didn't love it. That's why I was skeptical about the Consequence but I was wrong; the CU had everything the Evidence lacked. Interestingly, the Evidence Platinum is advertised as their flagship speaker but it costs ten grand LESS then the Consequence Ultimate. They market the Consequence Ultimate a different way since its been in essentially constant production since 1984. I think the CU is their finest product. I need to clarify that the shout I am hearing has not been heard in any other room I listened to it in (and I heard it in 2 very different rooms at the store) nor has it been identified by an other reviewer. I am convinced it is a byproduct of my room or breakin. We shall see. Agear - thanks. That's good to know. |
TOO bad you cant consider the flagship DYNA AUDIO EVIDENSE PLATINUM (due to its rear ports ). They are truly a remarkable design. Only 8.5 inches in width, but standing 76 inches tall, they totally disappear in the room, when properly implemented. The dual Esotar tweeters are very clean, and airy sounding with ZERO fatigue factor (no shout at all). Cheers....... |
I do agree with Paul that your source needs to be upgraded given the caliber of your system, but its not the source of the current problem. Guido's suggestion is a good one: put a dense piece of carpeting at the first reflection point on the floor. I am not sure that's the fix either, but time will tell... |
Hi Matt, believe it or not, I had completely forgotten that Muzik in your room were overloading the bass... Perhaps I'm starting to misfold proteins in the brain *grins!* Regardless of speakers brand and model, both Kevin Wolff of Vienna Acoustics North America (VANA) and Rod Tomson of Soundings in Denver assert that almost any room can achieve excellent sound if speakers placement is performed by a professional with the VA/Sumiko method.... Variously called Master, Masterset, or Master Set. The process is unfortunately not documented particularly well in the wild, but is sold as a service by some Sumiko and VA dealers like Soundings... It certainly worked fantastically in my own loft to eliminate some residual shoutiness and mid lower bass overload... On the other hand, my loft is essentially 16 x 30 ft or so, and is far from approximating a square. Furthermore, the great success in my loft cannot imply that a generalization is a safe bet. On a different track, is it possible that your now more reflecting floor might be a contributing factor to the Dynaudio shoutiness? G. |
IME, the more resolute the speakers are, the more flaws are revealed. Taking your complaint, it goes along with my experience with my own speakers (the Joseph's you didn't care for at the store). When music went from a soft to loud sound, or a hot vocal, the speakers poured it all out and revealed I had an issue. That issue was SHOUT.. So in my case, it was that the speakers did not compress under the stress, they allowed the system to tell the truth. I also thought the speakers were to blame, when in fact, they were telling me something needed attention. I went to the Totaldac Server, and all my problems were solved. I actually got more dynamic range now, that maintains composure instead of farting out, because the server does not fall on its @$$ when the demand is there, like my hotrod Mac Mini did. My system never shouts at me now. Not saying this is absolute and what you are experiencing, but this did fix my issue. Hope you get there. Sounds like the Dyn's are everything else you want. |
Paul - I don't disagree that the mini is a weak link, but it has never caused a shout before. and I have had a LOT of speakers grace my room. Why now with the Consequence Ultimates? -Is it that it has a lower sensitivity (84db) and demands more power to drive it and thus highlights my systems inadequacies? -Are the CU's just not burned in yet as Guido suggests? -Are the CU so accurate that they are revealing something upstream that was previously not discernible? -Do the CU have such low distortion that I'm just playing them way louder then anything else in my room thus far and I'm overdriving my room? -Are the quasi-horn loaded/ring radiated drivers just not plying nicely in my smallish room? Am I sitting to close to them? I know not the answers to these questions. I feel that the CU is teetering on the edge of nirvana and I just need to know what to adjust to get it there.... But your suggestion is spot on. I was initially going to compare the ODSE and D5000 using my familiar Mac Mini source but I'll try the DX first in a brief head to head to see if the shout is still there. Could it be that easy??? I hope so!!! |
Remember Guido - the reason I looked past Die Muzik is the rear port issue which activates mucho nodes in the room. Adding more base would have been a disaster.... I agree that if the shout doesn't settle with burn in then a Master Set may be in order. Unless the Isis blow me away; they will be moved down today and set up by tomorrow at the latest. As I said, I have heard the Ultimates myself in other locations and I just loved them. I think the shout is somehow due to my room, I just can't figure out how to correct it. It's a labour of love.... I do have a LOT of DAC's coming my way. The Allnic D5000 and an Antipodes DX arrived yesterday. So I have a LOT of work to do. |
Hi Matt, if in about one more month of grinding out signals the Consequences do not tame the shoutiness, you might need to get a professional to do a methodic setup... And if the shoutiness persists after that, you might need to look for tamer creatures... Or add a pair of Rel active subs to the good old Muziks to let your system reach down one more half clean octave. G. |
I'm ready to start drinking. I have read over every review of the Consequence Ultimate and talked with many people who know the Consequence Ultimate well and nowhere, in review or discussion, does anyone report or hear what I am complaining of. Nor did I hear it at the store. Other then the bit of a shout (and it's not harsh or truly fatiguing-it's just bothering me considering how much $$$$$ I have into them), I love the speaker. They vanish even though they are a large cabinet and the throw a wonderfully wide and deep soundstage. They are tonally accurate and multi layered with wonderfully accurate leading and trailing edges. I'm not giving up. But I will pull them for a bit to give the Isis a good listen. I had a local dealer drop off an Allnic D5000 DHT DAC and Antipodes DX server. Cool!!! I'll report mid next week on this as well. |
Guido, that is what I have been in search of. I want a speaker with the tonal accuracy and proper coherence of the Die Muzik with more low end extension, bottom or front ported and in a petite package. Is that asking too much??? The Tenor seams to be the closest thing to that this far in a small package. I'm still having issues with shout with the Consequences, which is driving me batty because they had none at the store demo. It's bordering on fatiguing, which is making me want to cry. I can't figure it out.... But I shall not give up. Isis is still one up, one down. My son has been busy with school work and today be was out at a marching band performance/football game. I'm picking him up at 10:30. I can't, in good conscience, ask the poor kid to sharp a 200 pound crate into the basement with me after a 16 hour day..... I'm hoping tomorrow and then I can set them up. |
Matt, it might depend on what you are playing on the speakers.... Electric bass as an example, is likely to be perfectly OK, it naturally blooms into the third harmonic while attenuating the fundamental, because of the relative shortness of the strings, and the natural inclination of the amplifiers used in the live venues. But try to give such speakers some organ music extending downwaards into the 16,32, or 64 foot pipe ranks, or other bassus prufundus, like some orchestral string bass, large percussion, etc... and you are likely to get a somewhat unpitched bloom at the bottom instead of fundamental frequencies. Probably euphonically pleasing to some.... Would drive me batty. As you know, I am not even faintly in the market for new speakers. But spoiled as I am by the finely setup VA Die Muzik in my loft, I could not live with a bass compromise, as "natural" as it might seem prima face. Rather, on purely hypothetical new speakers, I would seek even deeper bass, perhaps going down to the higher teens, still consistent with the pitch integrity and harmonic articulation that DIe Muzik are capable of delivering down to the lower twenties region. G |
JBL DD6700 specification. Description Dual 15″ (380mm), three-way, floorstanding speaker designed for a superlative listening experience Frequency Response 29Hz – 60kHz (half space); 45Hz – 60kHz (anechoic) Recommended Amplifier Power 500 watts Sensitivity (2.83V @ 1m) 96dB Nominal Impedance 8 ohms; 5.0 ohms @ 80Hz; 3.0 ohms @ 40kHz Crossover Frequencies (Hz) 150Hz (LF1 6dB/octave) 850Hz (LF2 24dB/octave) 20kHz (UHF 24dB/octave) Ultrahigh-frequency Drive Components 1″ (25mm) pure-beryllium compression driver High-frequency Drive Components 4″ (100mm) pure-beryllium compression driver Low-frequency Drive Components Dual 15″ (380mm) three-layer, pure-pulp sandwich/foam core cone woofer Height 43.7” (110.9 cm) Width 38” (96.5 cm) Depth 18.5” (47 cm) Weight Weight: 313 lb (142.1 kg) / Shipping Weight: 383 lb (173.9 kg) Finishes Rosewood or Maple The lowest bottom frequency is 45Hz (anechoic). It is like bookshelf bottom end! |