Ok, I'm looking to upgrade my CD Player. It's the last part of my uber-headphone system and I'm hoping to get the best player possible for under $12k used. I know that affords me alot of options, and I imagine I'll do some travelling and testing before I buy, but I wanted some opinions first. Right now, these are the main ones I'm considering:
*Reimyo CDP-777 *Linn Sondek CD12 *Naim CDS3/XPS2 *Wadia 270/27 *Wadia 861se w/Statement mod from GNSC *Meridian 808 *EMM Labs Meitner CDSD/Dac6 *Esoteric DV-50 with full mods from Reference Audio Mods *Classe Omega SACD
I'm not so much into characteristics - the overall performance is more important for me. But I do need a player with great bass (both in extension, detail, and volume) as my headphones are a bit bass shy. Any reviews/comparisons would be much appreciated.
"Listening for yourself requires a good ear and hard work. Some just prefer to follow the leader and go with the flavor of the day hoping the leader knows what he is doing. This is frequently not the case." regretably your post is undecidable: the pronoun 'this' you utilize in your third assertion can arbitrarely be interpreted as being an abstraction of either the 1st or the 2nd assertion., hence I have no idea if I can agree with you or not. Don't you just love these metadiscussions? (chuckles!)
This kind of post doesn't accomplish anything and shows up once a week. What's the best ________ under whatever. You'll get 100 different answers each time which won't really narrow it down for you to audition. I understand you are looking for people to list one CD player over and over so you can really find one that is the best, but that will never happen. So, you won't get the answer you're looking for.
People will tell you the best is whatever they purchased.
Was there anything in my last post you disagree with? Given your intense interest and enthusiasm for this hobby I would expect your unequivocal support for my position.
Listening for yourself requires a good ear and hard work. Some just prefer to follow the leader and go with the flavor of the day hoping the leader knows what he is doing. This is frequently not the case.
Busypk: Of course!! I have no idea why you would assume what I said would preclude that. I feel quite the opposite: it would be another great piece of information.
Jfz/Joperfi: Wouldn't you want to hear from people who "actuallY" heard Tbg's system and see what they have to say? We all have our own bias and I bet you will find someone who heard it say it was not their cup of tea.
Having heard the dCS stack, the EMM Labs gear, the Wadia 27/270 and the Linn, I would choose the EMM from those choices principally because it does SACD and I like SACD far more than redbook. If it were just redbook, though, I'd go with the Linn, it isn't the most detailed or revealing but it just sounds "right" to me--the others are a little too analytical for my taste (Meitner's sound surprised me, quite the opposite of what I would have expected given his early CD3 CD player, still one of my old favorites). And I'd choose (and have chosen) my Forsell/Audio Logic combination over all of them, but I am admittedly an unabashed fan of those pieces, as my posts will attest, so take that for what it's worth.
FWIW, Judy's post strikes me as having a cruel undertone, e.g. "...ad nauseum...", "...always the greatest thing...", etc. Norm is one of the very few people I know of who is almost constantly trying new, cutting edge components. And I gather from reading his posts over time that he is not always posting about just "His latest acquisition...", i.e. I believe that he tries many things that he does NOT like that much (and that he doesn't post about). When he does post something positive, I always think that OF COURSE it's because it's the best he's heard! (isn't that largely true of all of us, the only difference being the amazing volume of equipment that Norm hears in a year?). Seems to me there's a HECK of a lot more benefit in what he has to say (and introduce us to) than there is downside. And, OF COURSE, one should take what he says with a grain of salt. I take what ANYone says about audio components with a grain of salt.
Sure thing Judy. . . no prob. As soon as you reciprocate, of course. . . and watch that helico-bacterium pilori. . . truly nasty stuff it can be! It can do a real number on your gastric pH. On the other hand riding a halcyonic platform might help. . . the Mythical Halcyon, in the shape of the Kingfisher, had in antiquity the power even to calm the winds and the waves of the Kraken. . . . or so I am told. . . that was before my time.
I own the Meitner gear and very happy with it. All of the above are great players with different personalities and already a lot of comments done. Among them Meitner/Reimyo/dcS are generally similiar in quality (well by that I mean cutting age digital), clearly a cut above the rest, but with different characters and a matter of personal taste: the one thing Reimyo can't do is play SACDs which is factor to consider. If you want to consider price as factor, the new Ayre universal player is extremely good and I would recommend auditioning it against the Esoteric gear. I plan to do so next year as I move into another house and build a second system: perhaps the dcs new one box player will come into play but it is 50-100% more expensive than the other two: hopefully they will be cutting prices? Yeah, right.
Sorry if I disturb your sensibilities, Judy. Please avoid my posts. I think you are unable to see my great enthusiasm for the H-Cat and the Halcyonics. I like the Cerious and think the Exemplar products are the best moded units I have heard, but do say the Reimyo is the best digital I have heard. I am certainly not alone in singing the praises of the Indra. I am sorry you don't have enthusiasm for anything.
Whoopadeedoo, do you mean something like the Accuphase DP-77? Heard. . . looks great. . . and the sound. . . sure is different! Judy, feeling a touch acidulated today? All, let us not knock Norm's Halcyionic active isolation platform quite yet. From the only thread discussing it on the Gon, it looks like it was born for and is mostly still use for mechanical isolation of laboratory equipment. See: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1112411577&read&keyw&zzhalcyonic From what I can tell its manufacturer's claims are at least in principle quantifiable and verifiable. I may have to start selling lemonade on my driveway during weekends. . . perhaps some day I will be able to afford one of these creatures as well. . . and in case of earthquake I will climb on top of one for 'total protection'.
Whitewind, the Halycronics is not on the above list,there are mod cdp, that I can mention but No1willfan is very specific on the players, he is considering.Thanks
You have to take Norm's posts with a grain of salt. His latest acquisition, whether it be Vacuum Reference, Stealth Indra, H-Cat, Exemplar 3910, Exemplar 5910, Halcyonic, Cerious, ad. nauseum is always the greatest thing ever heard. Roll with the flow and wait for the next component. I am.
I used to be of the opinion that the Reimyo was at the top of the pile, but I nevertheless used the Exemplar 3910 as I wanted not only redbook. Recently with the new Exemplar 5910 I have tried the Halcyonic active isolation base. It made such a major inprovement that I now have to go back to consider what improvements it might make under other players. It may be that the platform further improves everything, or it may be that some are more greatly improved than others resulting in a foreshortening of the differences among them.
The Halcyonic also vastly improved my vinyl system. This unit has greatly complicated my life and of course given me sound that I thought was impossible.
I own a CDS3. I have not had the opportunity to do any direct comparisons with other top CDPs or DAC/transport combinations, but I've heard many others in systems that I am familiar with. The CDS3 is a very capable player. It has very realistic dynamics and the kind of projection that makes it sound like the musicians are present in the room. There are other machines that give one a better sense of fine detail and delicate "air" on top, but they tend to be less "substantial" (sort of spectral and less solid in imaging terms). The CDS3 is an engaging player that makes you sit up and listen, but it is not harsh and fatiguing. It is not as dynamic sounding as some other Naim players, like the CDX2, but that player sounds mechanical and artificial by comparison.
I also like Audionote DACs (particularly DAC 5 signature) with virtually any good transport. This is quite a different presentation than the CDS3, but very appealing. The sound is more liquid and relaxed, but it is not dull or sluggish sounding either. It may not be as exciting sounding as the CDS3, but it is a beautiful, coherent and luscious sound.
I don't think the Consonace Droplet belongs in any discussion of best cd players under 12K. At its' price point it is very competitive but with the others mentioned in this thread it is entirely out of place.
hey guido - you're in austin, right? if ever you'd like, feel free to make the short trek to san antonio if you'd like to hear the EMM stuff at mi casa.
My EMM CDSD/DCC2 with the Stax Omega 007t headphone system is glorious, with all images well defined and little or no harshess or hashiness on any kind of music, even lesser-quality recordings (popular music). The Staxes can sound buzzy or weak or bass-shy on lesser-quality CD players. The sound is better through the direct line outputs of the DCC2 (as opposed to the preamp outputs) into the Stax amp.
If I may jump in, I should like to mention my preferred CD/SACD player of record, the single box Teac Esoteric X-01. I have posted a short review here on audiogon where I compared it to the Bel Canto PL1-A and the Bermester 001. See: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1090867688&openfrom&1&4#1 I have not heard the EMM so I am not going to comment on it. I have heard the CDS big stack two years ago, but only once. While I did like it enough, it did not leave a strong impression. Since my original audition in NYC, I have listened to the X-01 several more times, at length especially at a friend's place. My initial subjective impressions of extremely elegant yet unadorned musical accuracy stand. I am planning to acquire a unit next month.
Interesting opinion. I know that was a widely held one back in '98/'99 when the CD12 first came out. But I've heard from a good number of people that there have been many better players that have come out in the last 5 years - mostly in the DAC department. A friend of mine who used to sell Linn products said the transport is still one of the best out there but the DAC is lacking compared to some newer players. In fact he said that's the reason Linn stopped making them - because there was no way they could change the design without sacrificing some quality so they just decided to discontinue it.
Fair enough. There are certainly a lot of different ways up the audio mountain, and I don't think one is necessarily more valid than any other. The Meitner certainly isn't infallible--nothing is--and there are plenty of other, equally deserving options out there. Good luck!
Hooper -> I have listened to the CDSD/DCC2 combo with EMM optical cables throughout. Once again - I think that EMM combo does many things extraordinary well, and I can see why ppl rave about it. It's just not my cup of tea.
I have listened to the both dCS stack and EMM combo through Nagra PL-P preamp and Nagra VPA monoblocks fitted with KR845 tubes.
I definitely prefer the tonal warmth that tubes can provide. Especially with my Supra that uses 6SN7s to their full potential. It provides alot of sound options when selecting tubes. I'm thinking an accurate, neutral, and revealing source might be the perfect blank slate I would need to sculp the rest of the sound with tubes. I already love the superb tone and musicality of my headphones. Combined with great tubes it's a magical combination but it really needs some real "oomph!" on the front end which is why I was considering either the EMM Labs or Reimyo which I also hear is incredibly accurate and non-intrusive.
A lot of EMM owners are using either tube preamps or tube amps. Personally, I prefer good solid state, but if you like the warmth and naturalness of tubes in your system, I think they're a good match with the EMM. As you say, it might help to warm things up, if that's your preference.
Ya know, I wonder if the "cold, analytical, super revealing, accurate" nature of the EMM Labs combo might balance well with my tube amp and warm/musical headphones? I'm thinking those tubes might help warm up the sound a bit while retaining the uber-revealing nature.
Yeah, I listened to the older dCS stack. I have to try to audition the new setup or find someone who has it. I've heard a number of people accuse the Meitner of being "thin" or "analytical." I certainly wouldn't call it warm or lush, but I think that "cold" sound that many hear is the unit's awesome accuracy. That's just my opinion, of course, and many will probably disagree. To my ears at least, the EMM is very natural sounding, but it isn't warm, and it's super-revealing nature might turn some off. By the way, the EMM's SACD playback is absolutely stunning. It's the best I've heard by far, but I can't claim to have heard everything out there. In addition: Were you listening to the EMM with the Phillips transport or the CDSD? The Phillips was pretty mediocre; the CDSD is in another universe altogether.
Alex: I was seriously considering the Zanden setup--much to the chagrin of my bankbook, I might add--before I came across the Meitner. I had a chance to audition both in my boss's system (the EMM was using the CDSD transport, which is a quantum improvement over the Phillips, as you probably know). While I loved certain things about the Zanden--notably it's ease of presentation and overall naturalness--it was a bit TOO warm and "slow" for my taste. The EMM had equivalent or superior transparency and resolution, and was a bit faster on transients, IMHO. And this was listening on redbook. I know a few people who own the Zanden, and they rave about it--and I can certainly see why. It just wasn't my cup of tea. And, at this price level, ya gotta follow your instincts. By the way, I love your products. I've heard several of them at various people's houses, and I've been consistently impressed. Congrats on bringing SOTA performance to the masses.
no1willfan: no difference in sound quality between the two, no.
the EMM gear does redbook better than anything i've ever heard, although i've not heard many of the uber high-end players.
since he's too modest to mention it, aplhifi also has several extremely well-regarded units. you'll notice that he says best "stock" performace. he believes that his modded units (based around different players) outperform these stock units mentioned here.
i cannot say whether or not they do, as i've not heard them. they're really popular, though.
RE Lazarus28: Thanks for the clarification. Is there any difference in sound quality between the two? If not I really wouldn't need the 6 channels with my system being a headphone system and all so I guess I'd be looking for the DCC2.
RE Aplhifi: Thanks for the Zanden suggestion. I've never even heard of them. FYI I'm just looking for a superb redbook player. I don't own any SACDs and I've put too much time and money into collecting my current CD collection to switch now. So I'm not looking for a SACD player unless it also happens to play redbook CDs really well.
no1willfan - the dac6 (and dac6e) is a multichannel DAC. the difference between the dac6 and the dac6e is that the dac6e has two sets of outputs, one balanced, one single-ended. the dac6 only has one set of balanced outs.
the dcc2 only does 2-channel, but also has a 2-channel version of meitner's fantastic preamp built in, so you don't need a separate pre.
Hooper -> the dCS stack I'm reffering to is 3 box solution. (You can run it without the external clock with small quality penalty, and then you have only 2 boxes).
Since you mentioned 4 boxes, I assume that you have listened to the older dCS stack - Verdi transport + Purcell upsampler. The latest transport I'm reffering to - Verdi LaScala - has the upsampling option built in, and is better sounding than Verdi + Purcel combination (for whatever reason).
I agree with you that EMM has superior resolution and dynamics. The problem of EMM gear is, that to my ears, it is a bit lean/cold sounding, the midrange lacks body and natural warmth. The EMM is like Valhalla cables in this regard - there are many ppl who swear by them, and as many (me including) who think that they sound "clean but thin".
I must also note that I have only listened to both EMM/dCS combinations on Redbook CD, so I cannot comment on their SACD performance.
It well may be true that EMM is superior on SACD, as Alex said. I personally do not care about SACD.
Oh, and I also wanted to note that I phrased the title of the thread the way I did for a reason: "Absolute Best CD PlayerS", as in plural. I know there's no actual "best" as too much of it is personal preference. I just wanted to compile a list of some of the best players out there in my price range.
RE: Teajay Just wanted to let you know that I definitely didn't take your comment personally (I know you all know nothing about me) and as far as I'm concerned there's no bad blood. I'm certainly not opposed to transport/DAC combos; It's just that they tend to be a little more expensive and even though $12k is a lot of money I know it will be hard finding some of these players (even used) in that price range.
To everyone else I'm sincerely thankful for the the responses and suggestions. Keep them coming as much as possible! Every bit helps. I certainly plan to audition as many as possible. In case anyone's wondering the rest of my system is:
Sony MDR-R10 headphones
SinglePower Supra tuned specifically for R10s w/Ken-Rad VT231 input tube & Matching Sylvania VT231 output tubes
Virtual Dynamics Nite II Power Cords (for player and amp) and ICs
Thanks for all the responses and to Deb: I really don't want to start a fight. So everyone please try to keep it civil and please refrain from putting down other players or people's opinions.
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