I had been waiting to get WP7s, and now have the opportunity to get a pair relatively "cheap" with the 8's coming out, but have found the more I listen to them, the thinner and brighter they seem. I thought tubes might add some fullness and warmth to them, so I auditoned them for hours with VTL and Nagra and found it less to my liking then SS- great detail, resolution and imaging, but lacking in emotion and fatiguing. I don't have the same problem with the MAXXs, but was not particularly enamored of the Sophia 2, although a definite improvement over the 1. I'm wondering if the WP8 will resolve (or ameliorate) the problem, but at too high a financial cost, or if the right electronics can satisfy me with the 7s. OB, I met you at Tzucc's house a few weeks ago- I'd love the opportunity to hear your set-up at some point. Terry
When I decided to get the Wilson's...after spending about 10 years looking for something clearly superior...I had to listen through the AR Ref 3....fortunately it didn't deter me from determining what the speakers could do....neither did show rooms that added warmth....and to a degree a level in trust of a sales person who had some understanding what I was seeking....and since I was in the speaker business a strong sense of how rooms and setup could greatly injure the potential of any given speaker...so I filtered all that out....given that...Wilsons seem to have the ability to let the music come through...which then gives me a chance to measure the result against live music....which then led to me Spectral and Ayre equipment....all tube stuff (except perhaps in pre amp area)intrude too much into what I hear versus the potential of live music....but some tube stuff....some of the time...sound "magical"...but alas not real....the other issue is the subtle...but always there...degnigration of the tubes themselves...and the level of heat that they generate....that slowly and absolutely erode sound quality...rarely in an obviouls manner...but none the less relentlessly. But not my concern at this point....just hopeful that the WP8s meet expectations
"I'm not a huge ARC fan either, although Oneobgyn has been dying to prove me wrong on the Ref 3 :) My general feeling about ARC is that it is a tad too SS-like for my tastes (and therefore, why not get SS)"
Keith, I do intend to prove you wrong about the Ref 3 when you are next up here in the SF Bay Area.
IMO, it is the best preamp that I have ever owned.
John- i spoke with Ayre about Wilson compatibility, and it is one of the references I believe they use (with others, of course). From the room i heard at the show, i think it would be an awesome combo (the new monos)although i would still prefer a tube pre I think.
I'm not a huge ARC fan either, although Oneobgyn has been dying to prove me wrong on the Ref 3 :) My general feeling about ARC is that it is a tad too SS-like for my tastes (and therefore, why not get SS)
not sure where you live however if you are ever in the Bay Area I would love to give you an audition to not only dissuade you about your notion of tubes and Audio Research. It is about as real as it gets
Two thoughts....as for electronics for Wilson (presently have Sophia 2...but moving to WP8 when available)...I don't care for the Audio Research sound....or for that matter most tubes....they make records sound great....but very far removed, at least for me, from live sound...be it a Jazz combo, classical or rock...on the other hand I also agree that many, if not most solid state amps aren't particularly musical....but there are some nice ones out there....I enjoy Spectral....and presently use Ayre...waiting for the new mono blocks to arrive...I have been very impressed with what Ayre does....and feel its a great match with Wilson...
As a former customer of Wilson Audio and owner of Watt/Puppy 7's, I have nothing but good things to say about them. I've always found the bashing of Wilson Audio amusing. It's human nature to want to hear good things about your "stuff" even if it comes from someone whose only qualification to comment is that he/she has access to a computer and can type. Audiogon is certainly one valuable tool to use when looking to purchase but be it still comes down to what it sounds like to you.
I have learned from the Wilson people and that the 8's have a TOTALLY new cabinet design "The 8's cabinet does not share any parts with the 7"s"
The Tweeter and Midrange drivers are from the Maxx2
Also the speaker is not into production quite yet, should be in couple of weeks.
As for cost vs. value...it took me about 3 years to decide (and save), for me it was cost vs affordability. In those years, and prior, I tried to audition as may speakers as possible...IMHO none matched MY listening enjoyment as the Wilson's did
Froggerz how you can read folks disingenuious comment. Shame on me. But let me ask you, if it OK someone is a devotee of one brand, another of a different line, and a3rd audiogon member a big fan of yet a totally different line. I shouldn't even be on this thread. I'm like in aforeign land, sorry to impose myself where I do not belong. I've learned a lesson here, I need to keep silent in opinions on all other labs , except the one I like. Nice Day Paul
Gee all this time i felt I had to hear the Theil's in south Alabama to compare with the seas. seems I have to track down Wilson's new line. Might have to go to Houston for that.
Spot on comments. I would _never_ have purchased the 5.1's or 6's as they weren't my cuppa', I found the mid-treble beamy and the upper bass pronounced.
I liked the Audio Physic sound (Old V. Caldera). The Sophia changed all that, and I went from the Sophia to the 7's/WatchDog, then to the MAXX 2's in quick succession, maybe over two years. despite comparing them to many top models--in my home, how many that slander Wilson have done that? The answer in this and other Wilson "bashing" threads is self evident.
I don't begrudge anyone their choices and biases as we all have our own. However there are _way_ too many posts in this and other recent Wilson threads categorically denouncing Wilson speakers as if they're a scam, and anyone that owns them is a dupe, a status seeking mongrel or part of the Wilson marketing machine.
All those opinions are _nonsense_, and pure ill-informed speculation They are excellent speakers made in the US that are fairly priced for what they cost to produce. That was the thrust of the advert as I saw it, and more of a defensive ad, given the abuse that gets heaped on anything Wilson in these and other forums.
The kicker is, anyone that works in this industry, with intimate, in home experience with the current Wilson speakers at a _minimum_ respects them. And those of us privy to the costs of US labor/ production and the make-up of their speakers has _no_ qualms regarding Dave's sincerity in stating his opinion in the ad.
Either it's an elaborate conspiracy involving Fremer, Harley, Bolin, Mickelson, VTL, Audio Research, BAT, Lamm, Shunyata and countless other companies, professionals and music lovers that back Wilson, or... the speakers are actually really well designed and perform well in many applications--not all--no product does.
Me, I'm not big on conspiracy theory other than what's on HBO. But I am aware that these forums _thrive on it_.Enjoy yourselves, what a colossal waste of time and energy.
No one thought about the fact that the guy in Arizona who replaced his Alexandrias for Zu Definitions may have just been desperate for cash and needed to downgrade. It does not automatically mean that if he went to a cheaper speaker that it must be better. Sometimes people go from a Ferrari to a BMW, just another of life's sacrafices.
You were probably talking about 5.1 or 6s back then---i agree they were fatiguing. The 6s drove me crazy and it didn't matter what electronics i heard them with---that tweeter was hot.
The Sophia broke that mold and has followed through with the W/P7 and Maxx2. I don't find any of the new models fatiguing. Honestly, its a very different sound and one you should hear for yourself before coming to a definitive conclusion.
I like to think that I'm not completely deaf, being a musician, (piano guitar and cello), going to symphonic and chamber music concerts regularly, but out of: Kharma, JM Lab, Dynaudio, Revel, Totem, B&W, Quad, Klipsch, Von Schweikert, Verity, god knows how many others... out of all these, the BEST STUFF (asin, made me forget about gear and hear music) that I have EVER heard, have come out of Wilson speakers.
Unless I hear something that I like better (unlikely, but possible) my next pair of speakers will be a brand new pair of Wilsons, pride of ownership and all.
There are no definites. If you are buying new I would purchase the new MB450 in a heart beat. They should be incredible. Also get the new 6.5 preamp. Make sure it is a brand new one as there are some changes. You will then be in hassle free heaven. Those are my biases. I would match preamp to amp in this case as you will benefit from the super balanced topology which is truly superb. It takes the sound up a level. If you don't run fully balanced you will miss out. Also the 6.5 preamp is a sleeper. It is affordable & sounds great. Don't mistake the synergy of the combination.
I haven't heard the ARC so no comment but every time I hear VTL equipment (or Manley for that matter) I recognize their sonic signature & love it.
I don't know which Wilsons you listened to but I own WP7s and have listened to(and about to receive) the Maxx IIs extensively. They really do show everything you put in. Maybe your Jadis was not a good combination. From my understanding everyone modifies their Jadis for this reason. Once modified they are supposed to be excellent but who knows I wasn't there. Maybe they weren't setup right. All I know is that tons of people own Wilsons & you seem to resent it. Yet anytime people here the recent generation Wilson speakers they tend to love or at least respect the sound. Maybe you are right and all the people who buy wilson speakers (which aren't so beautiful in my opinion compared to some other speakers out there) are deaf and only you can hear. All I know is when I listened to the Wilsons w. Levinson, Halcro or Naim or VTL or Krell I knew what I was hearing immediately and they all impossed their signature on the sound.
"Wilson's will show whatever you put behind them" Not according to my experience I had of the Wilson's 5 yrs ago at a dealer in New Orleans. You could have put Jadis' top of line, 3 or 4 models even, and the W's would have poluted the Jadis sourse. One word, fatigue. Hey Hifimanic, so you bought into a pr of Wilson's did you? What yr? Talk had been big, and i'm sure many like you "went for it".
Wilson speakers will show whatever you put behind them. That being said, if you like the ARC house sound you will like Wilsons w. ARC. If you like VTL or Lamm then ...same thing. There are a few different camps of sound in the tube word. Some w. more dynamics, others w. better bass & others w. better tonality. You almost always sacrifice something to get something. Wilson Sophias II were very well received w. the new VTL MB450 Signature and TL 7.5 Mk II preamp. In the end I would compare them carefully. I know that hearing Wilson w. certain electronics would have made me never buy the speakers. Only once I heard it w. my Electronics of choice - there are a lot of choices these days - only then I started to assemble a system.
The high-end is a small community. There are many good, even great speaker designs out there at all manner of price points and for all tastes. We should celebrate that we have so many choices rather than attack lines we know little to nothing about. Hearing a speaker in a showroom or at an industry show doesn't count. Reading an ad we don't like and defining a company because of it is equally short sighted.
There is no best, better for less, or for the price, or "mine's bigger than yours". The choice of a speaker, factoring room, electronics and budget is _way_ too personal and subjective for anyone to make categorical statements of value on what's best, or what sucks. The premise itself is ridiculous if you factor in all the intangibles.
In high end nowadays? Quality, value and established reputation rules. Gone are the days of over-priced, under performing products that do well and subsist on the open market--they're gone. If you make and market crap, you _will_ fail.
IMO, Wilson does not fall into the latter category, and every single market arbiter supports that assertion.
best for everyone? Noooooo.
Excellent designs, great sonics when set up well, great value based on any market, design or construction arbiter you care to review? Yes.
Simple as that, though these net forums were made for people that like to thow clandestine stones, so have at it.
The high-end is a small community. There are many good, even great speaker designs out there at all manner of price points and for all tastes. We should celebrate that we have so many choices rather than attack lines we know little to nothing about. Hearing a speaker in a showroom or at an industry show doesn't count. Reading an ad we don't like and defining a company because of it is equally short sighted.
There is no best, better for less, or for the price, or "mine's bigger than yours". The choice of a speaker, factoring room, electronics and budget is _way_ too personal and subjective for anyone to make categorical statements of value on what's best, or what sucks. The premise itself is ridiculous if you factor in all the intangibles.
In high end nowadays? Quality, value and established reputation rules. Gone are the days of over-priced, under performing products that do well and subsist on the open market--they're gone. If you make and market crap, you _will_ fail.
IMO, Wilson does not fall into the latter category, and every single market arbiter supports that assertion.
best for everyone? Noooooo.
Excellent designs, great sonics when set up well, great value based on any market, design or construction arbiter you care to review? Yes.
Simple as that, though these net forums were made for people that like to thow clandestine stones, so have at it.
Yes, I've heard current AR electronics with Wilson speakers and the pairing is exceptional. Wilson themselves, recommends the combination and owns many of the current ARC products.
Also, read some of Marc Mikelson's (Editor: Soundstage) recent reviews of ARC with the Wilson X2's and MAXX2's. His comments mirror my own impressions.
I heard them. Sounded great and better than my recollection of the 7s---very well integrated drivers and not fatiguing at all. Not surprised as I love Maxx2s tweeter as well.
I did not hear them on more grandish music either---solo bass, chorals, and vocals were what demo'd in the 15 minutes i spent there. Still a very high price tag...
Finally heard the Zus. They sound like slightly constricted Mangers. Surely one must wonder why crossovers exist at all. Or why AC current and Transformers should not grace any pretender to the throne.
Hey guys seeing how the topic of this thread is "About the new Wilson Audio Watt/Puppy 8" Does anyone have another speaker they can rant about or is there a thread about Zu's so I can maybe learn about Martin Logan or B&W...
The Zu Definition speakers compete favorably with the best available. Whether or not, you choose to own them, you must acknowledge that for $9000/pair this is an achievement. And until you have heard these speakers, you are in no position to refute the claim. There is technology at Zu's disposal that companies like Wilson have either failed or neglected to access. The Zu full range driver affords an audio perspective that your speakers do not provide. Of course, you don't want to hear that. I wouldn't either if I had invested X thousand dollars in the extravagant reputation of one of the incumbent monarchs of speaker purveyance. But, what are you gonna do? Time marches on. The first one now shall later be last. The train is coming. Change is on the way. The Zuists are not crazy and we are not basking in hyperbole. This thing is real. Check it out. See what you're missing.
To be fair, my system has been built with my ears and priorities. Since the veracity of my statement is in question, I'll posit a few specifics:
The tweeters sounded like the drum kit was 10 feet over my head. The midrange obviously emanated from a lower point and bass was on the floor. The bass was muddy and the speakers had a difficult time tracking the cacophony of Patricia Barber's "Norwegian Wood" from the Live in France album.
I thought tone was weak and the speakers did not "speak" with one voice, rather a collection of sounds with different personalities coming from different points in space.
My speakers have none of these issues. For convenience purposes, I used the colloquial "smoked".
You know, there is always someone who dumps their [whatever] for the latest [whatever]. Always. It means nothing.
And another thing: In my experience with high end components, few if any excellent components ever really "smoke" other excellent components, nor do they embarass them, stomp all over them, or anything else of the sort. But that's just me.
"We both agreed my Definition Pro setup smoked them."
How about your speakers against mine in my system. I would be happy to welcome the challenge. This is not to disparage the Zu but to use the standard preppie adjective of "smoked them" always gives me pause to laugh
If I were to offer up any suggestion as an alternative and less money speaker as an alternative to the WP 8 I would seriously consider the Alon Mini
I agree; there is no way the Zu Definition are in the same league as the Wilson Alexandria. I was merely pointing out that an owner of the Alexandria felt they were. I am not attempting to slam Dave or any of his products; I was a very happy owner of them for years. The Wilson product is excellent. You will never meet a man with more character and class than Dave Wilson. My point is there is other contenders that compete very easily, (the Definitions being one) at a fraction of the cost. In a very big room with good electronics, I'd buy the Alexandria's if cost weren't an issue. The better comparison for the Definitions is the Watt/Puppy 7. I haven't heard the 8's so I can't comment, but I think the masses would be very surprised at how good this speaker sounds for only $9K or $10k plus another amp for the Pro version. I just want everyone to be aware of a product that could save them lots of money, but not enjoyment. Also, with a no-risk 60-day return policy, why not rule them out before you spend an additional $20k for the Watt/Puppy 8's. In the end, I don't care what others decide to buy. I am a very satisfied customer of the Zu's and a former satisfied Wilson owner. I am glad I could pocket some change but still have killer sound.
No I haven't heard them although I have a great interest in doing so
I just felt that it was a pretty bold statememnt made by Hifimaniac that someone dumped his Wilson X-2's in favor of the Definition. His implied that the Definition is a better speaker. I would simply suggest that as good as the Defintion is, it isn't in the same league as the X-2. I suppose that my statement can be construed as just as bold and it is not because I own a pair.
I can't tell from your posts here if you have actually heard the Definitions. I haven't myself, but just wondering if you have heard them? Sorry if I have over-looked the answer to my question in one of your previous posts.
Has anyone heard whether owners of the watt puppy 7's will be able to have wilson upgrade them to 8's?
thanks
Mike
Mike,
I heard from a dealer that they won't be doing upgrades from the 7 to the 8, though they will discount anyone who recently purchased a 7 on a trade-in for the 8. I'm not sure about the details concerning the trade-in.
Already read it and it is one man's opinion. You know from experience that a show setting never shows off a speaker's true worth because of the lousy rooms and set ups. Remember the Wilson Watt/Puppy 7's at CES in 2005. They sounded like $500 speakers. You know that the room there was bad. Talk to people who have bought them. Zu hasn't received many back. Now, in your room they wouldn't work; your room is too big. But a guy here in AZ dumped his Alexandria's in favor of the Zu's so they can't be all that bad.
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