I just snagged another set of Pits on Audiomart. The seller still has 6 Pucks and 3 Thick Pucks listed at good prices.
A reappearance of Black Diamond Racing?
I received an email from Music Direct a couple weeks ago offering the BDR shelves again. Anyone else notice this? I use them extensively in my system and actually use carbon fiber sheets in DIY projects. I'm a big fan of CF's usefulness in audio.
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That's it. Just installed last week. A few quirks to work out. Gonna need higher spring rate on the upper shelf than I currently have, (ordered). The Rock 7 is currently out of service, waiting to be rewired straight through to phono stage. The good thing is how much of a positive change this was/is! |
I have these everywhere. Mine are the original rectangular version. Did you get those? Or the newer ones with the curves? https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 Do you have Pucks or Round Things? Or will you be using them with Cones? |
I just saw this thread, and coming a bit late to the game, thought I still had some things to share/add. First off, "Deej" was a friend, and I've been using BDR exclusively since '92. I did quite a bit of beta testing for him in the '90's trying lot's of one offs back then, some of which I'm still using, focused on solid state gear (Forsell) for him as he was deeply into tubes then. I started with cones and "Round Things" above and under cones, usually cones down, evolving into the use of "Jumbos" just a few months before Deej died. He called me the day he sent me my fist set of Jumbos to report they were on the way, wanted me to try/use under my Forsell transport, and said "enjoy and let me know what I think"...he also announced that day cancer, likely terminal. I had the chance to speak w/ him really only once after (the Jumbos are MAGIC in concert w/ Round Things and cones). He went very quickly, sadly. A great guy by all who knew him well. All I can say is that I'm still using tons of BDR under all my gear still. I'm still purchasing too. His cousin Dan (and wife, both great people BTW) took over the business, employing the same guys using the same build techniques and are building the same great products available today. There's really nothing like this equipment to get the most out of your gear. The one thing I must add though is that placement is critical, and the deeper one goes into BDR, the more this is the case. I use a combo of 3 sets of Round Things, attached to cones, down into Jumbos under all my components (minus table, w/ more testing pending). I can say that 1/32" in placement can make a big difference in effect and being on vs. off. I have notes on my current system for placement that go back to 2001 (new home/listening room then), and these notes are my "insurance policy" against an accidental bump while dusting. Hope this helps others out there on the status of BDR. kbuss |
"Speak of the Devil and he will appear". Upon going into New Listings this afternoon, I quickly saw a set of four BDR 2-3/4" Pucks, exactly what I have been intent, as previously stated, on obtaining. The asking price was $120 shipped, but my offer of $100 was immediately accepted. My use of the Pucks may be unusual, but part of their beauty is in their versatility. I have a set of Eminent Technology LFT-8b loudspeakers with dedicated Sound Anchor stands (a bit of a misnomer; it is more a base than a stand), the stand being a 3-point design. Meaning, the stand has threaded holes in three locations for the provided spikes. One location is in the middle of it’s rear side, which sits just behind the back end of the speaker’s woofer enclosure. The other two are at the front end of the two "limbs" which extend out in front of the LFT-8b (picture the front legs of the Egyptian Sphinx, or of your chillin’ dog). But I decided to replace the spikes (they’re so 20th Century ;-) with Townshend Seismic Pods, for isolation from rather than coupling to the floor. That’s fine, but the Pod isn’t really "happy" on a carpet and it’s padding (neither is the IsoAcoustics GAIA), as it’s bottom plate is just a thin sheet of, I presume, steel. I have a set of four BDR Those Things (2-3/4" square), and it occurred to me they would make a fine base for the Pods. Great, but I have only four, two shy of my needs. Upon looking for another two Those Things, I discovered the BDR Puck, which is simply a round version of the Thing. And, the Puck is 2-3/4" in diameter, same as the bottom plate of the Pod. Too cool! So of course I decided I had to have the Pucks, a perfect aesthetic match for the Pod. Six would be great, but as the back Pod can’t be seen, four will suffice (my delicate aesthetic sensibilities able to deal with such unsightliness ;-). And I now have them. Speaking of the Townshend Pod, it is weight rated and available in a bunch of "sizes". Since there are two support points at the front of the SA stand, and only one at the rear, the one at the rear "carries" more weight (the LFT-8b’s mass is centered on the middle of the SA stand), and requires a stiffer spring. For any LFT-8b owner reading this and considering trying a set of Pods, I found two size "C" Pods on the front legs and one "D" on the back side of the stand to balance perfectly. As each size Pod has double the weight capacity of it’s lesser neighbor, that makes sense. Any LFT-8b owner not wanting to use the Sound Anchor stand (I don’t know why, it’s fantastic!), Townshend also has loudspeaker Podiums and Bars which incorporate the Pods in all four corners. They are considerably more expensive than a set of Pods, but the owner of a pair of Magicos may not care ;-) . As a matter of fact, Audiogon member folkfreak has his Magicos sitting on Townshend Podiums, and love’s ’em. Alas, he is in the process of packing up and leaving Portland, so I most likely won’t again hear a pair of Magicos until my next trip down to L.A. My old pals at Brooks Berdan Ltd. are a Magico dealer. Eminent Technology, too. It was Brooks who turned me on to the ET’s. Music Reference as well. |
So, like I said, I cannot compare right now except only as a replacement for the rubber feet. I just finished listening to a very familiar lp, "Love Over Gold". The presentation is very quiet, quieter than I’ve experienced before in my system. This leads to greater/more natural tonality, no loss of any part of the frequency range. My system is sounding better than ever before. I can hardly wait for the installation of the new wall mount system. Then, all of my front end components will be decoupled from the wall/room. |
I'm not feeling any buyer's remorse so far. As the weekend progresses, and I listen to more familiar recordings, I'll post. One thing I've noticed throughout the years in audio...when a product is labeled "gold" or "silver", that is not by chance.....there is a thought behind it. Gold is mostly thought of as a smooth. warm presentation. Silver is thought of as a more transparent. revealing presentation. I mention this because these cones are labeled "Golden Sound". And so far on lesser known lps, they live up to their name. And this is a good thing! |
Hey @mofimadness Well, I received the Golden Sound cones in a week. Much sooner than I was thinking. In my current system configuration, the best/only place I can use them now is under my K&K Audio Trio Pre-amplifier. Also, I cannot compare between them and the BDR comes because of lack of space. So, until I make my system changes, I will only be listening to the GS cones verses the rubber feet in my wall unit. The Trio sits on a BDR shelf inside the MANA Acoustics wall unit. I'm using the medium cones here. What's interesting is the difference in the design of the Mediums and the Supers. The Mediums have a "nipple" on the bottom/shelf contact end and a hollowed out portion in the top/component contact surface. I assume this design is from a lot of testing. It worked out well for me as, right where I wanted to place two of them in the back of the Trio were chassis screws. I was able to set the cones right over the center of the screws. The Mediums have no interface, compared to the Supers, which have a felt pad on the component end. Almost through...I doubt if any of that interested you but being my first time using them and for others that have yet to use them, I thought it may be useful. |
Okay, thanks mofi. If anyone has a couple of Those Things (2-3/4" square x 3/4" thick), or either the Pucks or Pits (both 2-3/4" round x 3/4" thick, one having a 1/4-20 threaded insert on one side and a dimple on the other, the other one 1/4-20 threaded all the way through) let me know, and we can arrange for you to put them up on Agon for me to buy. |
Are the "Those Things", "Pucks", or "Pits" still available? No. Those became the LM Pillows, Discs and Curved Shelves. DJ Casser passed away back in 2012 and I think, (although I do not know for sure) that the audio side of Black Diamond Racing is no longer. The family kept it going for quite awhile after his death. Music Direct usually has lots of BDR stuff and they don’t have a whole lot left. The website is still up, but hasn't been updated in awhile. Maybe someone knows for sure? |
@geoffkait , Although I've never tried them, my experience with trying different materials, leads me toward agreeing with you. I just looked at www.goldensound.com it seems they are still available. I'm going to order some. |
This is a good lesson for the newbies how audiophiles sometimes get carried away with things. Once they commit to an idea there’s no stopping them! 🔙 The same thing happens to lead as a filler or support or node damper or whatever. It seems like such a good idea, right? Not too soft, not too hard. And SONEX. 🤮 And room treatment in general. Foam padding in chairs. Sorbothane. Gawd! Look, I did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday and have evaluated all manner of cones, including the BDR Cones for ages, at least going back more than twenty years. I have an advantage, admittedly, since I evaluated various materials & cones in conjunction with my advanced isolation stands including the sub-Hertz Nimbus platform. Now, one big advantage to being able to evaluate cones under the platform and cones under the component is all the differences are much more obvious in the context of component isolation and the drawbacks of certain materials are more obvious. The super hard DH Cones from Golden Sound outperform BDR cones hands down, it’s not really close. Very hard materials beat relatively softer materials every time. And the DH Squares, graphite composite and DH Shelves also outperform BDR shelves. The NASA grade ceramics are analogous to Rafa Nadal on clay. Nobody comes close. |
Oh yeah, definitely worth the price. Something very important that never seems to come across in any of the websites. The BDR vibration control approach is modular, flexible and progressively complimentary. In other words the stuff is designed to work together, and the more, the better. The first and most cost-effective step is three Cones under everything. The next step up from Cones is Pits, Pucks or Those Things- but they are all slightly different versions of the same thing, basically a pad or base that spreads and improves the effectiveness of the Cones. A Cone can go between the component and a Pit, or be screwed into a Puck and placed under the component. The improvement either way is big but like everything else you just have to experiment to find which way is bigger. One thing you learn doing this, the conventional wisdom about points and vibration flowing is just bonkers. The next step up from this is to add three more Pits or Pucks. So at this point it goes component, Puck, Cone, Pit. Huge improvement. By the time you get to this point you have added something like $500 in BDR but have a component that sounds something like $2500 better. Only when you get to this level does it make sense to go to a Shelf. Then you are back with the same deal of adding Cones and Pucks under the Shelf. Doing the same thing only now at an impressively higher level as the Shelf drops the noise floor, grain and glare letting you hear impressively deep into the recording. I know everyone says that about everything. But the Cones alone deliver the same, only less, but enough so that at only $60 for a set they are still one of the best bargain tweaks in audio. |
Just talked with the folks at Music Direct. They are not stocking the BDR shelves, but will order them for you. Looking at the BDR website, all size shelves are available, including custom sizes. The regular shelfs are 3/4" thick, the Source, The Shelf is 1 1/4 " thick. They are introducing a "Cloud Shelf " They are Spendy, but worth the price. |
Know what you mean. Every time the choice is sit and listen and enjoy what you got or do something else to maybe make it better. But its so much easier to sit and listen, so much work to make it better. It seems I am more lazy than energetic so often its a little surprising I have a stereo to listen to at all. |
@millercarbon, My project has been in the works for several years, some in actual building/testing but mostly in my mind. I own several BDR shelves/SFTSs. I just bought two 14" diameter SFTS a year ago that were originally made for Thor monoblocks. These, I got at a great deal and aren’t cosmetically great. So they will be great candidates for my project. Mine will be based on VPI’s Super Platter w/inverted bearing. I have the design of the motor enclosure mostly figured out. I’m going to go for the SOTA/Phoenix Engineering set-up. This motor will bolt perfectly to my already machined plate. Planning on two separate arm pods, one for my ET 2.5 and one for my Moerch DP-8. |
Ideally slaw you would find a used Shelf, or two, or even better a Source Shelf. If you are unsure a simple proof of concept will remove all doubt. Simply drill a hole or two to mount a bearing, add arm and motor, see how it sounds. I bet even without being careful, just slapping a motor on, piece of wood or MDF for the arm board, hardly even trying you will still be hearing a deep dark noise floor and more inner detail than ever. I mean it just kills it in terms of dropping the noise floor. This way if for any reason you don't want to go on well you still have a Shelf only with a hole in it but still perfectly good for sitting components on. But that won't happen. You will want to go on. If you look at mine one of the top images shows the Miller Carbon sitting on a Source Shelf. https://www.theanalogdept.com/c_miller.htm The table itself was all built from one Source Shelf. The plinth was cut out of a Shelf much like it looks in the photo. The left corner was then cut into a 5" diameter circle to be used for the nut that screws onto the bearing. Scroll down the page to a side view to see this. The right corner was cut into a smaller 3" circle to make the tone arm mount. Those Things and Cones thread right into the plinth. This is all based on a modification of Chris Brady's Teres turntable. http://www.teresaudio.com/fame/index.html Chris no longer makes the tables but he used an arm board so you could run virtually any length arm. https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649452242-teres-255-baltic-birch-turntable-with-signature-motor-... Mine goes for maximum strength and stability by making the sides more curved and using a solid arm base instead of the board. Either way works fine it just depends on what you want. Every time I go back to that site it reminds me how long I've had my table. More than 16 years now! |
I just unpacked a couple of Torlyte shelves I bought back in the 80's or early-90's. I'm going to try one under my Townshend Rock Elite table, to see if Torlyte is still a contender. VERY low mass, high stiffness-to-mass ratio, but made of wood (fabricated into a honeycomb structure). Torlyte was popular when the Linn Sondek ruled the world. |
Well if you are building a plinth, I really don't think you can do any better than a BDR Source Shelf. Even the thinner Shelf would be better than pretty much anything else you could find. I built a few and nothing came even close to the Source Shelf. The stuff is just so damn stiff and dense and highly damped- perfect for a plinth! Don't be put off by it being carbon fiber. There is really only one layer of carbon fiber on each side. As far as cutting, shaping, machining, sanding, polishing, it works just like wood. Very, very hard wood. Not as hard as aluminum. But I have some very dense hardwood in my shop that is actually harder to cut and sand. Very doable. Mine was cut first on a band saw, then hand sanded. Other parts were routered, drilled, and cut and threaded just like any other material. If you decide to try it first wrap the whole Shelf in blue painters tape. Leave the tape in place all the way to the end. That way only the areas you work get exposed and you wind up with a perfect blemish-free finish. |
George Merrill was at one time (in the 1980’s, at least) putting a top layer of lead on his turntable platters, in support of the notion that lead provides a better mechanical impedance to the vinyl of LP’s than does any other material. That was followed by the carbon graphite mats made by a couple of companies. Like everything else, everyone has their opinion, with theory to back it up. |
One Teres platter version, the black one, was I think Delrin. Most of these materials- acrylic, Delrin, aluminum, MDF, stainless, all the usual suspects - are used more because they are affordable and easily worked with than anything. In other words its not like they are the best materials, its they are the least bad materials that can be used cost-effectively. That is why those few materials keep showing up and being used again and again. Its like the band-aid or system matching MyFi approach to cables- instead of doing the hard work of finding something genuinely across the board excellent we'll take the easy way out and try and balance a lack here with a surplus there. That's why you keep seeing these things being laminated together. Its like wine or whiskey. This one's too sharp, that one's too mellow, hey but if we blend em all together.... Only at least the wineries are honest and up front about it. In audio for some reason they feel compelled to make up BS like constrained layer damping. Please. Its a blend. Because you don't really know what you're doing. Just come out and admit it. In the case of BDR its not just the carbon fiber. A lot of it is the material in between. Which I know for a fact because DJ sent me a Shelf with no carbon fiber that works as well as the more expensive ones with. Hard to say exactly since you cannot compare different sizes and this one was an odd size but it sure seemed to work just as expected only without the CF. |
“Geoff disapproves of lead.” You can say that again. Where lead is the most obvious for anyone who’s never figured it out, the bass gets all messed up, unnatural sounding and glumpy. It’s one of the very worst materials ever foisted on young naive audiophiles. It even happened to Pierre at Mapleshade and yes very far from naive. He used a ton of it at the shows. He even had a guy on staff who’s duty it was to make sure all the lead arrived at the Shows. Of course, when you look at my scheme how materials sound, from best to worst, according to hardness guess which material brings up the rear! |