Lew, I suspect a mono MM/MI does not have better vertical rejection than a mono MC. This is due to relying on the magnetic field for determining cantilever direction, but this is a guess. How they work is confusing and that's why I tried to describe it in general terms. I haven't seen a vertical rejection spec for a mono MM/MI, not from Ortofon or anyone else.
I estimate the vertical rejection at 1kHz, when you deploy the mono switch on a preamplifier whilst playing a mono LP with a stereo cartridge, is near zero, or very low. Most of my mono records are like yours, in good shape or Japanese reissues. I'm just getting into vintage mono, but the mono switch w/stereo cart did almost nothing to render a noisy copy listenable. Maybe Johnny can quantify that better.
Did you read my (neobop) post on Asylum mono thread? I'm not refuting theory. I'm stating fact. No doubt you would find new enjoyment with your mono records and appropriate cart. Considering your equipment, I guess your choice would be between detail and romance.
Happy listening, |
Fleib, What are you saying? Besides saying that I am incorrect, that is. What's the stuff that follows on after your mention of a MM/MI type cartridge? Actually, I had in mind more the modern MC mono cartridges, of which there are many. So, are you saying in effect that MM/MI type mono cartridges do a better job of rejecting signals created by vertical deflection of the stylus tip?
What do you estimate is the vertical rejection at 1kHz, when you deploy the mono switch on a preamplifier whilst playing a mono LP with a stereo cartridge? (This is not a rhetorical question; I don't know the answer myself, but I would bet its within the same ballpark, 30db-ish.) |
11-05-15: Fleib
Elimination of vertical noise is a great advantage with a mono cart as
Johnnyb says. This can be dramatic with some older or beat up records.
That's what I've been exploring with the AT33MONO cartridge the last few days. I've been digging out various mono records I had tried years ago and set aside as they were too noisy when tracked by my stereo cartridge and signal chain. Now I'm trying them again and they sound great. Examples include an original 1965 pressing of the Janos Starker Bach Cello Suites on Mercury Living Presence, an Angel mono of baritone Dietrich Fischer-Diskau singing Brams songs, an old Verve record called Giants3 featuring Nat King Cole on piano (no voice), Lester Young on tenor sax and Buddy Rich on drums, a 1969 Fantasy mono of the Vince Guaraldi Trio doing the music to A Boy Named Charlie Brown, an old Columbia mono LP of Gene Krupa orchestra with Anita O'Day and Roy Eldridge, and some others. In each case, when played with a stereo cartridge there was so much surface noise I couldn't enjoy the music. When played with the AT33MONO the noise was gone (or 30dB down if you wish). So far this cart has made around 20 old mono pressings totally playable and enjoyable. For awhile the tonal balance sounded a bit dark and closed in, but I raised the arm height a bit to make the headshell level with the record and that fixed it. Now playing a mono pressing of "Echoes of a 16th Century Cathedral" by the Roger Wagner Chorale. Released July 1967. A Capella renaissance choral music and a lovely way to start a Saturday morning. Lots of great music for fifty cents. The AT mono cartridge has brought so many vintage mono LPs to life it's paid for itself. |
Lewm,
I wasn't quoting you. I was quoting Johnny, and that was about the construction of a mono microgroove. However, your contention that a modern mono cartridge is a stereo cart with the channels bridged, is incorrect.
I can see how you might think that with a MM/MI type and vertical rejection might not be perfect, but it is significant. A MM/MI uses a magnetic field which effects the pole pieces/coils. The magnet(s) move in direct response to the cantilever. Vertical cantilever movements corresponding field is cancelled by manipulating the coil connections.
2 coils connected in parallel - total inductance like parallel resistors.
2 equal tightly coupled coils - the total inductance is close to that of each single coil. If the polarity of one coil is reversed, total inductance is near zero.
The AT mono MCs have a horizontal coil. In theory output is horizontal. In reality spec is 30dB vert rej @ 1K.
Scroll down here for mono explanation:
http://ortofon.com/hifi/products/mono-series
Regards,
|
Fleib, I am not sure I follow your argument to the point where I can agree that using a "modern" mono cartridge is inherently superior to using a mono switch on the linestage, to reproduce mono LP sound. But further, I was remiss in not clarifying that the mono LPs I had in mind would be very late in the mono era and/or modern re-issues of pressings that were originally mono. There are long discussions on various threads about how these are created, but I was assuming they are typically consonant with playback by modern cartridges (because they demonstrably are). I was not trying to take into account early mono LPs where indeed the groove width was different, etc. That adds a layer of complexity that kills the discussion. Further, the paragraph you quote is not one that I wrote, I don't think. Also, I never argued that using a mono cartridge is a bad idea.
Johnny, No, I don't know for a fact that "most modern mono cartridges" are internally stereo cartridges in which the two channels are bridged at the outputs. But for sure, many are built that way, if not most, based on testimony of persons who would seem to have inside info. And finally, the fact that your mono cartridge is dead quiet is in no way a refutation of anything I wrote. To wit, a mono LP has no music encoded via vertical modulation. Thus, the only "signal" generated by vertical deflection of the stylus in a stereo cartridge that has been converted to put out a mono signal, when playing a mono LP, would be noise. Typically such noise is identical in both channels and would be cancelled when the two channels are combined to produce mono. (I wrote this above.) |
11-02-15: Lewm
To repeat, many if not most modern mono cartridges are internally
constructed as stereo cartridges, except that the outputs of the two
channels are summed prior to exit. Such cartridges will likely be responding
to vertical modulation imparted by the record grooves.
Do you know this for a fact, or are you guessing? Many mono carts are NOT just summed channel stereo carts. My mono cartridge makes NO vertical sound. NADA. It is dead quiet on a needle drop where I can get a pretty loud THUMP with a stereo cartridge. If it were summing two channels it would still make a big sound on a needle drop. The mono output goes out to both speakers because its single signal, picked up by a single coil and magnet, is split to go to both channels. In fact, there's another advantage to a real mono cartridge--lower moving mass. I think that's how this Audio Technica can put out 1.2mV and yet be more detailed and sensitive than my Denon DL-160, a stereo HOMC. What I've said about this Audio Technica cartridge is also true of the low cost mono Grados--$90 for the conical model, $150 for the elliptical. The suspension allows horizontal and vertical movement, but that is simply for record safety. There are no mangets or coils to pick up the vertical movement and then killed downstream. It is a mono cartridge with an internal splitter to send the signal to both channels. That is why it's devoid of phasing issues and the noise level is cut at least in half. And also why a mono switch on a preamp won't do the same thing. |
Dear Johnny, I enjoy these discussions, but its frustrating if you don't read my posts. For the third time, most modern "mono" cartridges are internally stereo cartridges wherein the two channels are bridged in order to produce a mono signal (identical signals in each channel) at the output. Such a cartridge WILL respond to vertical movement of the stylus tip. Since, on a mono LP, there is no music encoded in the vertical direction, any noise generated by vertical motion is, hopefully, cancelled at the outputs of the cartridge, to produce the benefits of mono playback. The exact same thing happens inside a linestage with a mono switch, if you use a stereo cartridge to play a mono LP. The only question is which method sounds better, and I suspect the answer to that question has a lot to do with what mono vs stereo cartridges one is comparing whilst playing a mono LP.
Of course, as I also wrote above, there are a few mono cartridges that are truly mono, have only one channel from input to output. In such a case, the results may be more in favor of using a mono cartridge, but I really cannot say. |
Whoa, I lost track of this thread and there's some misinformation here.
*Modern mono pressings are pressed like stereo pressings--horizontal modulations for one channel, vertical modulations for the other channel.*
Modern mono pressings are microgroove with groove walls at 45°. Unlike a stereo pressing, each groove wall is a mirror image of the other.
With this in mind it's easy to see the advantage a mono cart has in playing such records. With a stereo cart there are output differences between channels which should be identical playing a mono record. A mono switch will blend these differences, not eliminate them. Any alignment, azimuth, anti-skate etc. imbalance will smear the signal.
Elimination of vertical noise is a great advantage with a mono cart as Johnnyb says. This can be dramatic with some older or beat up records. For microgroove mono you will have a similar advantage with advanced profile tips as with stereo. Ortofon, Lyra, Soundsmith make some mono carts with extended contact tips.
Conventional MM/MI, manipulate the connection of the coils to eliminate vertical output. MCs do so with the orientation of the coils and armature. According to AT, the MONO3 and 33 have identical construction style which results in 30dB of vertical rejection @ 1KHz.
AFAIK AT never made a mono MM.
The microgroove was invented in 1948 and adopted mostly through the '50s. Pre microgroove pressings from the early '50s or before might sound better with a 1 mil stylus. LpGear still has the Ortofon OM D25M with 1 mil tip. I've never used it, but Ortofon has it listed in their historical data as lateral output. You might be able to use other OM styli as well. |
When I first got a Japanese stereo pressing of Rubber Soul, I *wished* I had
a mono switch. It was never intended to be a stereo record, but in the US,
Capitol knew that *stereo* sold. So they keept the 2 recording tracks
separate, instruments in one, voices in the other. Much worse than John and
Paul hard right, George and Ringo hard left.
However, Lewm, a mono switch doesn't replicate *all* the advantages that a
mono cartridge does. Because there's no vertical signal in a mono cartridge
(at least the ones I know of such as my new Audio Technica and the Grados),
the noise floor is cut in half, even for modern mono reissues.
I've found that vintage mono records benefit even more from a mono
cartridge. I recently pulled out some real '50s and '60s mono pressings--Ella
Fitzgerald singing Gershwin, Righteous Brothers, and Fischer-Dieskau
singing Brahms. With a stereo cartridge they were too noisy, the Fischer-
Diskau especially so. With the mono cartridge all those same records were
quiet and very enjoyable.
A mono switch with a stereo cartridge won't fix that. |
Anecdote re the Decca London. Back when that was the latest rage, I and a close friend both bought one. He and I separately noted that if you removed the cover over the top of the body, you could access the assembly that supported the coils or at least some part of the transducing mechanism. We had enough faith in ourselves to adjust the tiny screws, which moved a platform up and down, so as to get best sound. It was only after a few months of listening that we discovered that we each had turned a stereo cartridge into a mono cartridge; there was no stereo separation at all, when the London sounded best to our ears.
Rnm4, I don't know what to make of the language you quote, describing the difference between the two AT mono cartridges. It's ambiguous, don't you think?
I think I need to purchase a mono cartridge in order to compare the use of a mono switch to using a mono cartridge, but right now I bemoan the fact that many modern preamplifiers have omitted the option of mono switching. I have two vintage units that provide same, an original Quicksilver full function preamplifier and a Klyne 6LX, through which I use an outboard tube phono stage. Some day, I am going to install a mono switch on my Atma-sphere MP1, which is the best sounding of the 3. Or maybe that system will get the mono cartridge. |
Because some stereo mixes, especially early ones with exaggerated separation (Ringo and Paul to the right, George and John to the left!), are god-awful? |
I have a mono switch on the ARC PH8. Virtually all mono records sound best on my system in mono mode. Here's the kicker though ... can anyone explain why some stereo recordings sound better in mono mode? Not a lot of stereo records, but some. |
If I'm not mistaken (and I may be), the AT33MONO for around 300 bucks has only coil for picking up horizontal vibration, unlike the AT MONO3, which only generates signal from the horizontal movement, presumably canceling the vertical component.
Here is how AT describes the former:
"The AT33Mono is made specifically for use on mono systems. It has a horizontal coil, and so in principle only generates electricity horizontally."
And here the latter:
"Made specifically for mono recordings on vinyl records, the cartridge only generates signal with horizontal movement. However to produce a minimal wear on the groove, the AT-MONO3/LP also has an adapted vertical compliance."
Is that how you would interpret the difference here? |
A great discussion, Lewm and Johnnyb. There is one playback scenario not mentioned, the one I use. I have a fair number of 50's and early-to-mid 60's mono LP's, and in addition to my main pre-amp I have been using one (ARC LS-1) with a mode switch having the following settings: Stereo, (Stereo) Reverse, Mono, Left (channel only), and Right (ditto). Using a stereo cartridge, a mono LP can be played with the mode switch set to not only Mono, but also to Left or Right, whereupon that channel's input signal will be fed to both the left and right outputs of the pre. Switching between them allows one to compare the two groove walls! The best sounding wall can then be the one listened to.
I also listen to early stereo LP's (particularly Beach Boys and Beatles) via the Left and Right inputs separately, to hear the extreme left/right panning on those records, with the instruments in one channel and vocals in the other. Many of the early Beach Boys albums were not offered in true stereo, but in Duosonic (mono reprocessed fake stereo). The two channels of Duosonic LP's can be compared, to hear the processing (frequency and phase differences added to the original dual mono channels).
A cartridge of particular interest for the playing of mono LP's, I believe, is the Decca/London, because of it's sum-and-difference design. The cartridge produces a L+R signal and a L-R one, to attain stereo. How that can be exploited for mono LP's I don't know. |
Johnny, As I thought I clearly stated, I am not arguing at all that playing mono LPs in mono mode, no matter how it is arrived at, is not optimum. In your last paragraph, you seem to be talking about a condition that I have not even dreamed of... playing a stereo LP with a mono cartridge. (I could be wrong about your intent.) Let's leave that out of the picture as a generally bad idea.
To repeat, many if not most modern mono cartridges are internally constructed as stereo cartridges, except that the outputs of the two channels are summed prior to exit. Such cartridges will likely be responding to vertical modulation imparted by the record grooves. Of course, on a mono LP, there is no music encoded for vertical modulation, but there will be some spurious noise which is cancelled prior to the output connections. When you use a mono switch on a preamplifier, exactly the same thing happens. Thereby, mono LPs played even with a stereo cartridge will sound much better than if played back in stereo. What I am wondering about is whether in fact it makes any important audible difference whether one uses a mono cartridge or a mono switch to play back mono LPs. I don't say that I know the answer; I am just curious. There is a well known guru on Vinyl Asylum who insists that the two methods are indistinguishable sonically. I am never as certain about anything as he is about everything. |
You could also have a stylus that can wiggle in both directions to protect stereo records but only has a coil and magnet to pick up horizontal motion. In that case the signal's not canceled; there's no signal from vertical motion at all. It could also mean less moving mass.
It *is* different from using a mono switch, because that's summing both channels to produce mono. A cartridge that picks up only the horizontal movement--regardless of how it does that--is factoring out the second version of the mono signal and eliminating noise that would be generated by the vertical track.
There is no question from my listening that the AT MONO3/LP has a lower noise floor and a more focused sound because it's only playing a single mono track rather than the sum of two. |
I don't know about the particular AT cartridge under discussion, but many/most "modern" mono cartridges are merely stereo cartridges that are internally bridged to produce a mono signal. Mono cartridges thus constructed would therefore produce a signal, in fact, in response to vertical movements of the stylus that is canceled at the outputs. The result is very little different from using the mono switch on a preamplifier with a stereo cartridge playing a mono LP. Neither is "perfectly" mono. (I would not argue for a minute that either option is not superior to playing a mono LP with a stereo cartridge into a preamp set for stereo mode. That's easy to hear.) Admittedly, there are "true" mono cartridges out there; I think Ortofon, EMT, and Miyajima make examples, and probably others. I'd like to hear one of those. |
Lewm, I think I can shed some light on your questions.
No, my preamp does not have a mono switch.
Until last Tuesday, I've played my 30 or so mono LPs with a stereo cartridge,
the Audio Technica AT150MLX.
I only started playing these mono albums with this new AT mono cart for the
past six days. I have been giving heavy rotation to the Beatles and Nat King
Cole mono reissues plus vintage pressings.
Your "In theory, a stereo cartridge played through mono switching ought to
be about the same as a mono cartridge, on mono LPs" overlooks a couple of
things. Original mono pressings only have modulations in the horizontal
plane. Modern mono pressings are pressed like stereo pressings--horizontal
modulations for one channel, vertical modulations for the other channel.
When both channels have the same info and are played back on a stereo
cartridge, yes, you do get mono. However, the two channels will be slightly
out of sync unless the cartridge is *perfectly* aligned.
A mono cartridge can *track* in both planes, but only the horizontal
modulations are transmitted. This means there are no right/left phasing
issues and the noise floor is lower becausethe noise and accumulated dust
of the vertical channel transmits no sound.
Also, modern mono cartridges have a suspension that allows the cantilever
to move horizontally and vertically, probably so you don't inadvertently ruin a
stereo record. However, the vertical circuit is "dead." The needle moves
that way but makes no sound.
Another advantage with the AT MONO is that the stylus is conical (not so on
many mono cartridges), so overhang isn't so picky and tangential alignment
isn't so critical. With a stereo cartridge with a microline, Shibata, Fritz-Gyger,
etc. stylus the opposite is true--for best mono playback alignment needs to
be as close to perfect as possible. In fact, playing a stereo cartridge on a
modern mono record is a good tool for spotting alignment problems--and
also for subwoofer integration. I once played a mono Miles Davis reissue and
iit sounded like the music was coming from the left wall. I had to adjust the
azimuth to fix it.
The mono cartridge sound is very focused and free of any phasey artifacts
because it's playing only one track rather than merging two identical tracks
that are supposed to sound identical. With a mono cartridge, because only
one track is getting picked up, music from both speakers *is* identical.
For me, at $112.65 and a turntable with interchangeable headshells--even
for playing just 30 records or so--this was a no-brainer. |
Apart from the fact that I loathe Amazon, thanks for the heads up. I'd actually rather pay the extra money and buy from some other vendor, but LP Gear are not so meritorious, either. Anyway, does your preamplifier have a "mono" switch? Did you ever try it when playing mono LPs with a stereo cartridge? If anyone has done this experiment and then also heard a mono cartridge in his or her system, I would be interested to know which configuration was preferred. In theory, a stereo cartridge played through mono switching ought to be about the same as a mono cartridge, on mono LPs. At least, this is what I tell myself, since I don't yet own a mono cartridge. |
Johnny ...
I used to have a second turntable ... an old Technics with an SME arm. I used it to play 78's. No room for a second table at this time though.
Its really surprising how good mono records can sound. I have hundreds of mono jazz albums, vocals and some classical too. At times, with a good mono record playing, the thought crosses my mind ... "who needs stereo?" As we mono guys know, mono sometimes sounds much better than the label's stereo releases.
Well recorded 78's can be pretty amazing too. I have a copy of the West Coast jazz group "The Lighthouse All Stars" on a 78 rpm record that puts them right in the room. I used to demo it for guests just to show them how good 78's can sound. The record companies were still issuing 78's well into the 1950's. We used to buy them when I was a kid because they were cheap. Fifty cents each, brand new. It was this era that had the good sounding 78's. Man ... Joe Houston, Big Jay McNeely and Earl Bostic on 78's? To die for. *lol* |
Belyin: the thing is, this mono Audio Technica cartridge provides so much for so little, at least from Amazon. It lists at around $300, but you can get it from Amazon for $112.65. A replacement stylus for a mono Grado ME+ is $90; you might as well buy three Audio Technicas and set yourself up for a decade of playing mono LPs.
The other cartridges you mention cost more in one way or another. The Denon is twice as much. It has OFC copper, but the AT has PCOCC copper, a big step up in the most strategic place. The Ortofon SPU Mono is no doubt a great mono cart, but at around 8-1/2 times the price it should be.
That's why I'm nuts about the Audio Technica. It is a great value, almost a gift--a cannily built high output moving coil with a forgiving conical stylus and an overall enticing musical presentation for little more than a Shure M97xE.
I'm sure there are better mono carts, but none that can get within sniffing distance of the AT at $112.65. |
I have the SP (Standard Play, i.e,. 78 RPM) version of this cartridge that I picked up in unused condition for a song on ePay, and it is wonderful --especially for post-War (that would be WWII for those of you have lost count) sides. Without interchangeable styli it probably is not ideal for the serious collector, but I like mine for my casual 78 spinning and would like to hear the LP version, if only to compare it to the Denon DL102 and the SPU Mono (both of which have their well documented virtues as well.) |
10-29-15: Oregonpapa
I wish I had the ability to have two tonearms on the table. With all of the
mono jazz recordings I have, I'd love to have that new AT mono cartridge.
Do you have room for a second turntable? For the price of a tonearm, you could get a Pioneer PLX-1000, which is like a Technics SL1200 with the improvements it always needed--better feet, internally damped tonearm, more torque, and constrained layer damping where the plinth meets the base. They go for $697 and have a removeable headshell. I totally agree with you about Audio Technica cartridges. My stereo cart is the AT150MLX. It's a fantastic value with excellent resolution, tonal balance, detail, and dynamics, especially considering you can get it for $325 and the MicroLine stylus is replaceable. This AT MONO3/LP HOMC is also schweet, lowering the noise floor and brnging a nice musicality to all my mono records I like it much better than the Denon DL-160 HOMC I still have. I wish Audio Technica made a stereo version (i.e., high output) of this cartridge as well. At $112.65 it's ridiculously good. |
I wish I had the ability to have two tonearms on the table. With all of the mono jazz recordings I have, I'd love to have that new AT mono cartridge. Having had a few years of experience with playing mono records on the AT-OC9 MKIII and now the ART-9, both of which are great sounding on mono recordings, I can only imagine what AT can do with a mono only cartridge. I'm really beginning to like that company. |
|
Yes Sir...I totally agree...I've had mine for a while now and keeps getting better, it has to be one of best hi end values out there!!! You'll be surprised how well it sounds on stereo recordings as well. This cart has had me on a mono treasure hunt for months...a true diamond in my opinion.
Enjoy the MUSIC my friend...:-)! |
