jchiappinelli
... a laser pickup is a technical
marvel. If it can read the nano sized pits on a CD, surely the
technology exists for someone to make laser pickup to read the hills and
valleys of an LP pressing without converting it to one's and zeros.
Think of the benefits ... Am I just dreaming? ... Come on TT manufacturers, get to work ...
It's been done, with very mixed results. See this about the ELP. |
It's a great idea but unfortunately the twin problems of D/A conversion and vinyl imperfections (scratches, dust and pressing issues) still remain.
Is it still better than dragging a tiny diamond at high speed over relatively soft vinyl?
Maybe. But it needs to catch on to bring the price down and maybe also ditch that giant CD player look to boot.
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ELP claims no digitization in the process. |
Hi,
ELP an idea coming from LASERPHONE back in 1972. |
that challenge has been fully satisfied. better and more real world than the ELP is the optical cartridge from DS Audio. this product is ’ready for prime time’ and resides in a number of high performance systems. and it can be used on any turntable or tone arm. it’s a ’system’......cartridge + phono stage. https://www.ds-audio-w.biz/optical-cartridge-basicprinciple/ there are a few ’gotcha’s’......but nothing that cannot be dealt with. |
The DS system offers no significant benefit that I can see. You still have a stylus tracing the groove. Tracing the groove is the hardest part not the conversion to an electrical signal. The DS uses modulation of LED lighting and a standard pickup uses magnetic induction of one sort or another. The DS system has less effective mass but the magnetic systems are so small and light that the influence of that mass is in the ultrasonic region. I have not listened to the DS system so I can not comment on the sound but I am not about to spend that kind of money on one without there being an obvious advantage especially when high resolution files leap frog right over it at a major cost savings. |
"I have not listened to the DS system so I can not comment on the sound ...
... high resolution files leap frog right over it at a major cost savings. "
It looks like you commented on the sound. |
It's been done, with very mixed results. Thanks for the info on ELP. However, have there been any reviews by major publications that support your claim of "mixed results"? As far as the DS system, I agree with looscannon. Cant see the benefit if you still have a stylus tracking in a groove. J.Chip |
I have not listened to the DS system so I can not comment on the sound but I am not about to spend that kind of money on one without there being an obvious advantage especially when high resolution files leap frog right over it at a major cost savings. high res digital is not nearly competitive with standard technology cartridge design. not close. i have plenty of dxd (352/24) and Quad dsd and it pales directly compared to my vinyl performance. your ’statement/opinion/wild guess’ is wrong. period. as far as cost savings; you can’t paint broad brush strokes when speaking about performance. every system is different. some digital surpasses some vinyl at particular investment levels. if you are talking about SOTA on both formats, then vinyl is better. i own SOTA on both formats. the optical technology of the DS Audio (which i have heard at shows) is more detailed than a normal cartridge. the question is it’s tonal balance....it's in the ballpark but a matter of personal taste. laser or optical in the groove is a non starter due to dust and dirt realities of this mechanical system. the vinyl pressing technology would need to be re-engineered for a direct optical or laser approach to be workable. and tonality of those laser systems has not yet been made workable. |
jperry, I suppose you could read it that way but I meant technical sophistication.
MikeL , I do believe that is a subjective opinion. The techies would say you are listening to distortion that you and many others find pleasing. I listen to records because of nostalgia more than anything else. I have bookmarked my life with records and music.
There are those that think of digital sound reproduction as segmented, broken up. The data is stored that way but it is not played back that way.
The DAC takes the data and turns it into a continuous wave form. Assuming it is a high resolution file you can not see the difference between the analog waveform and the digitally recreated one. If you reverse the polarity of one signal and add them together all you have left is random noise at a very low level. This would mean that whatever difference you hear, assuming it is the same master is from something that is being added to the signal. What that addition is depends on how you look at it. I look at it as distortion. |
looscannon, I have bookmarked my life with records and music
i'll take your word for that. your Audiogon 'life' has been less than a week, and so little for us to know about yet. but you will have to make some sort of case for your points beyond what you have written here. tell us about the details of your experiences (system details, investigation details) that support your representation that vinyl is distortion. you do have a right to your own opinions, but not your own facts. |
poprhetor,
"ELP claims no digitization in the process."
I missed that. Thanks.
Well, that’s one major bugbear out of the way.
If records could be cleaned scrupulously, a big ’if’ I know, then the implications not only for audiophiles are huge.
Dragging a stylus through a groove, even with optimum stylus force, alignment and tracking ability, is changing the sound of that record forever.
For audiophiles it might not matter too much as we tend to wear out well before the vinyl, which is often replaceable.
But for archivists all over the world the benefits of preserving rare vinyl copies would be enormous.
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looscannon You still have a stylus tracing the groove. Tracing the groove is the hardest part not the conversion to an electrical signal. Opinion stated as fact. Constructing a quality phono preamp section is a challenging task and there’s no easy or inexpensive way to do it. One of the prime advantages of the strain gauge method, for example, is that it allows an inherently simplified approach to satisfying the RIAA curve. I suspect that among the prime limitations of the ELP player are the playback electronics that follow the laser reader. |
cd318,
I agree and have regarded the laser stylus as primarily a super cool archivist’s tool. In my own life, it’s just a fun bit of trivia. If I’m having some light conversation that drifts in the right direction, I might ask someone if they’ve heard of this thing. After a couple minutes, they reliably conclude that it’s fascinating but unnecessary *unless* you’re an archivist. |
poprhetor,
Well you know how we audiophiles can spend decades climbing the ladder to sonic Nirvana, then something new and potentially better comes along.
We can either accept it and welcome it, or feel threatened and attempt to dismiss it.
I mean digital has been around for nearly 40 years and yet pockets of fierce resistance still remain.
As for the Mag-Lev ML1, that got flamed in certain quarters right from the start (same for MiniDisc).
For me any contactless vinyl replay system must surely be worth investigating.
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cd318
For me any contactless vinyl replay system must surely be worth investigating. What are you waiting for? The ELP laser turntable has been around for more than 30 years. Please let us know what your investigation reveals. |
I liked ELP before I liked the Beatles. 😄 |
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I liked ELP before I liked the Beatles.
Lol, I am still waiting to like The Beatles........ |
cleeds,
"What are you waiting for? The ELP laser turntable has been around for more than 30 years. Please let us know what your investigation reveals."
I found that, sometimes change is OK.
Even in the world of vinyl playback.
Not too sure about ELP though, I’m more of a punk man. |
