$800 Cartridge Shootout and Upgrade Path

Dan ed: " You do have the right to voice your opinions but you don't have the right to have anyone respond to you "..

I agree with you.
Regards and always enjoy the music.
Raul.

Raul,

I'd be glad to comment on the $5K budget. Here is the original post I made:

"Raul

Whether you're correct or others are correct, it feels like you're speaking from an ideal sense, not a practical sense. I see a real life issue I don't think you can solve with your reasoning; I don't think your logic can work for folks woking on a budget up to $5K (and probably a much higher budget). A huge percentage of the folks here are on a budget & are trying to achieve the best possible music from a table, arm, cartridge, preamp, rack, interconnects, cleaining machine, and accessories, within a reasonable budget. It's tough to apply your "logic/argument" in this thread, I wouldn't have a chance do it within my budget."

You gave your responses as:

"Dear Dsiggia:".... see a real life issue I don't think you can solve with your reasoning; I don't think your logic can work for folks working on a budget up to $5K...".

Here are some examples of analog rig ( around $5K ) that you can blend according with what you want to hear:

Cartridges: Van den Hul: MC ONE SPECIAL,
Ortofon....: Kontrapunkt b.
Allaerts...: MC1ECO
Benz Micro.: M2
Clearaudio.: Victory
Lyra.......: Argo
Sumiko.....: Celebration
Transfiguration: Spirit MK3
Dynavector.: D172 MKII.

Tonearms: MOERCH: DP 6 or UP 4 ( both has interchangeable arm wands with different effective mass, so you can blend with any of those cartridges. )

Turntables: Transrotor: Atlantis.
Acoustic Signature: Final Tool.
Avid: Volvere.
Nottinngham: Space.
Roksan: Xerxes.
Thorens: 850 BC.
Wilson benesch: Circle.
Basis: 2001 Signature.
VPI: Scoutmaster.

Any of these combinations beats your analog system for a wide margin ( btw, hands down many of the anolog systems of the persons on this thread. ). Try it.
Regards and always enjoy the music.
Raul."

My response is:
You failed to see the $5K wasn't just the table, arm, cartridge. What happened to the phono preamp, cleaning machine, accessories, etc? It didn't seem worth it at the time to respond - you blew the budget. Enough is enough....

Hi Artar1, at $2400 for the Illustrious have you ruled out a Schroeder Model 2? They are the same price. Just curious.

Shop around for the Illustrious. It can be had much cheaper than $2400.

Hi Guys!

Wow! There’ve been a lot of posts today, and that’s for sure. I am so swamped at work. We decorated our area today for Halloween. Tomorrow I will be coming as a clown. Maybe that’s fitting so long as I don’t make a big fool of myself. So because of the increased workload today, I am writing a shotgun response to everyone.

Rushton,

Thanks for the best wishes. I am very excited about the choices I have made. It’s a little more than I want to spend, but then I won’t have to worry about upgrading later. I think what I have chosen will engage me more in the hobby of analog because I will have a lot more invested. I will say more about this later.

Jphii,

Thanks for the confirmation and the support; it means a lot to me. What I have chosen strikes a good balance, even though I did go over budget. But that has to be a common story for most of us posting here. Somehow the choices I have made for turntable, tonearm, and cartridge feel right to me. I am not so worried that I haven’t heard them in advance. I have listened to good mass-loaded designs not too long ago, and I am sure the combination I have chosen will not disappoint me. Thanks.

Raul,

You mentioned in a previous post that you have heard many turntable/tonearm combinations and that you own many phono cartridges. I would be interested to know how much you have invested in analog. It sounds like a lot, maybe fifty-to-one-hundred-thousand dollars? You mentioned numerous cartridges, turntables, and tonearms. Did I understand you correctly that you actually own all of these items now, or you have simply heard them over the years?

I think in regards to Twl providing an explanation for the notion that the phono cartridge is limited by the quality of the turntable has already been done. I think Twl has already answered that question sufficiently. Are you asking for further elaboration on a subject that has been thoroughly explored?

It’s perfectly okay with me if you consider me to be inexperienced with all things audio. Somehow I am unaffected by that comment. But to label Twl as such, I feel, is an oversight on your part.

>>You have a " long road to home ". Both of you have 30+ years ( at least this is what you told us )of experience in audio and you are ( still ) at a low level of the music reproduction at home: I can't understand why you are not growing up a little faster or maybe you already think are right on target.<<

I am wondering if a language other than English is your primary means of communication, for I am a little puzzled by your tone. I would like to believe that you, as a person, don’t go out of your way to be argumentative with others. Is there any truth to that?

>>Artar1: " you can't go wrong with the 103R ...", this was your advise to Flg2001: sure he can go wrong with that garbage of cartridge.<<

There are many who would disagree with you. You seem to have a very strong opinion here. Are you trying to save us from ourselves?

>>Dear friends: I almost always try to " work " on real facts, my advise to you is that try in the same way: " live experience ".<<

I feel most of the time you are operating from a position buttressed by opinions, which is okay, but I feel a little uncomfortable when you try to claim that you suppositions are, indeed, facts.


Dougdeacon,

Please accept my apologies for teasing you once again. I was speaking “tongue and check” when I was blaming you for my going over budget. I was not at all serious. But then again…

Also thanks for your support; it has helped me a lot in figuring out what I really want in a turntable, tonearm, and cartridge. And I think your prediction about sonic bliss will come true. Happy listening, and thanks again!

Dsiggia,

Thanks for your kind words and support. I appreciate it!

I think you are right about Raul’s position, but the funny thing is that I am not sure what it is. If my memory serves me correctly, I believe Raul maintains that the cartridge is the most important element and should be chosen first, or something to that effect. Hmmmm…

>>Furthermore, you say "four of 20+ persons are really experts on the subject, when I say experts is because they have a high resolution audio system and they have " live experience "<<

Let’s see, if Raul is wealthy, which he might be, then I would like a high-resolution system that would meet his standards. I would be more than happy to provide an address where donations could be made! : > )

Raul,

>>Dsiggia: First I'm not defending my position. If you don't believe or can't understand the " live experience " issue, that's your problem and that's why you " can't learn something ".<<

I feel this to be argumentative and inflammatory. I am curious as to what prompts you to express yourself in this manner?


Letch,

How do you like the Michael Green rack, and how much does it cost? (I am sorry about asking that question.) I don’t have suspended floors, thank goodness. My listening room has a four-inch concrete slab covered by think carpeting. There is no bounce that I am aware of.

I agree with you about not making a hard-and-fast rule about sprung tables in regards to suspended floors. I think you engineering friend might be on to something.

>>1. Table -Teres 255 or 265 or Galibier Quattro ALU
2. Arm - Shroeder DPS
3. Cartridge - Shelter 501 II<<

This looks to be a fine list of components. What about Redpoint? It’s similar to Galibier and looks cool too.

>>Raul - I would not say this is the matter. It is not that Twl and Doug and Artar are "soft and kind", the fact is that they understand that this is a dialogue between people with common interests.<<

I like the emphasis placed on dialog. I try not to deny the experiences of others. These experiences are subjective in nature and are the basis by which we choose audio components.

>> They also understand that there are many relativistic factors here, components, power, rooms, musical tastes and different tastes concerning what kind of sound they want.<<

Right on! I couldn’t have said it better.

>>They are not here to lecture others on right or wrong. They are not concerned with who thinks they're a biggie smarty-pants or an "expert". I find your tone and your dogmatic approach to be more of an authority control thing and while I appreciate the fact that you care about this hobby, I can't take your knowledge seriously when it's presented as the only "truth" or the only "fact".<<

You make a very good point.

>>I am not an audio expert, that I will freely admit. I have been going to concerts for 27 years and have seen thousands of live concerts of all kinds.<<

Wow! That’s a lot. I think that makes you an expert, at least to me.

>>I have been collecting records for 34 years. I have years of experience in record retail and used to be a classical buyer for Tower records. I have only been an audiophile for 8 years. What does all this make me? A person who loves music enough to devote a large part of their existence and most of their finances to it. I am trying to develop a system to play back the music I love and I very much appreciate the help I get on forums to make up for my lack of "audiophile" expertise.<<

It seems to me that you’re on the right track. Yup! No doubt about it! Thanks for posting Chris. You rock too!

Jimbo3,

I don’t think Raul is from Massachusetts.

Dan_ed,

Thanks for your support. As you know, I like your system too. Is it almost finished?

Mab33,

Yes, I will not be getting the Schroeder Model 2, but that does not mean I feel the Illustrious is the only tonearm that should be considered. I will explain more at a later time. I have to return to work; I have a manual I need to finish before I go home.

4yanx,

Thanks for posting, and I got your e-mail! The price I quoted is off the web site that you have suggested. Now maybe the cost is lower, or maybe I am in error. At any rate, it won’t be until next April before I can actually buy my analog front end plus the phono stage. I need to keep saving.

The moral being, don't always accept the price that you read on a website as gospel without proferring a personal call.

Artar,

I just bought a Grand Prix amp stand for my "mediocre equalizer" (tube amp) and before I go set it up I just wanted to respond to yr post about Redpoint. While I like the Redpoint look, they do not post prices on their website and somehow I got the idea in my head that they were out of my league price-wise. Looking back on it, I can't remember how I got that idea and am going to email them right now. I was intrigued by the idea that I could go to Colorado and hear the other two tables (though of course this would be in completely arbitrary contexts concerning associated equipment though ). Thanks for pointing this out, I should look into it further before I write them off.

Thanks for your kind comments, I feel that we are all in this together and I prefer the feeling that this is a conversation where we all report on our experiences and work to develop the questions and answers we seek.

Oh yeah, Michael Green doesn't make the Basik racks anymore. I saw one of the heavier "Clamp Racks" here used on the 'gon for $365 recently and it's a better rack than this one. My rack is very rigid and fine for a...basic rack it's nuthin' fancy. On the rack I use Black Diamond cones and pucks, Michael Green brass cones and Bright Star little rocks as well as a Bright Star Big Rock for the Oracle and a Townsend Seismic sink for my CDP. So I try to get a handle in various ways to get the sound I am looking for. After trying out this amp stand I may look into a Grand Prix equipment rack but they ain't cheap! Before I go that route I will upgrade source components though, so the rack I have is gonna have to do for now. Like I said, I had to custom build a plywood/foam platform to isolate the turntable from footfalls and have acheived this goal so I feel that this current set-up is good for now though it's good I live alone because the platform has zero WAF!!!

It's cold today here in Seattle but all the tubes in my amp, pre and phonostage outta warm me up.......now to wrangle my amp up onto this stand......

Chris

Chris,

LOL. I got it! You know the reference to your tube amp being a “mediocre equalizer.” What a sense of humor you have. Why, I was thinking of starting another thread concerning the virtues of having a 10-band, tube-based equalizer in one’s audio system. Now that would be really cool!

Yeah, I know what you mean about the Redpoint web site not listing prices for their turntables. I figured that if I couldn’t afford the Galibier tables, I wouldn’t be able to afford the Redpoints either. But, you could always give them a call. Who knows, maybe they are cheaper. And if Redpoint is in Colorado with the other two manufacturers, then you could make it a “threesome” visit so to speak. Going to Colorado will clear up a lot of things for you, and it will be fun too.

Similarly, I went to Washington this last summer to visit Bob Carver in Snohomish. It was an eye-opening experience. I really didn’t know what to expect. He was very gracious and accommodating toward my wife and me. I learned a lot and came away being very impressed with the sound of his equipment and utterly fascinated by his success as a designer and as a businessman. He also told me that he is working on a new tubed amp (a "mediocre equalizer") that will deliver 600 watts into 8 ohms! I saw a large shipping box that looked like it had over 50 KT-88s!

By the way, I didn’t know that you lived in Seattle. What a great town. I grew up in Lynnwood, and I lived there between 1953 and 1971.

I, too, think that we are all in this together. If I could get all of my answers from reading TAS and Stereophile and could depend upon what my dealer told me, I wouldn’t have stared this thread. The truth is that most dealers I have met know less than me about audio. I am not trying to toot my own horn, but rather I am only stating how little most dealers know about audio equipment, and especially about analog. I could have gone to The Analog Room in San Jose, a fine place actually, but then I would not be able to purchase the Teres or an Origin Live Illustrious. However, they would have found something suitable for me, but it would not have been very cheap. The Analog Room has some really expensive gear.

I’m sorry to hear that Michael Green no longer makes racks. I guess that I will have to make one myself, although my wife thinks that I will most likely never get around to it. She may be right!

What tube amp are you using? I have Martin Logan Ascents; you know, "low-resolution" gear. I would like to go tube, and I was wondering if you had any suggestions. I was thinking about the Quicksilver V4 Monos, Music Reference RM200, McIntosh MC275, or Conrad-Johnson Premier 140. The problem with the last two choices is cost. I was also thinking about the Jolida JD 3300A. It’s new and replaces the JD 3000A. It costs about $5,000.

I hope things warm up in Seattle! But you may have to wait until March for that.

Artar1

Artar,

I didn't mean that Michael Green no longer makes racks, just that he no longers makes the particular model that I own. He makes heavier "clamp" racks, where you can screw the shelves down onto a component. I guess putting cones inbetween. He still makes all sorts of "tuning" acoustical products:
http://www.michaelgreenaudio.com/catalog/mech.htm

As far as building a rack, well the platform was a project of desperation to play records and it mainly involved getting Home Depot to cut the boards I needed.

I gotta say that this Grand Prix amp stand is blowing me away. I have a Sonic Frontiers Power 2 SE amp and the sound quality after putting it on this rack is stunning. The backgrounds are jet black and guitar plucks sound more palpable(I'm listening to 'folk 'guitarist John Fahey's Red Cross right now). There's more space around everything and I can hear deeper into bass and drums. I know that a stand doesn't have a sound so I'll just say that this one lets the amp shine powerfully.

As for amp recommendations, well I'm not that familiar with the amps you're asking about. My brother is a big McIntosh fan and has heard them with the ML speakers and really liked the sound. He was thinking about getting a pair of the Ascents since he's heard them quite a bit at his local dealer in Detroit but decided that they would be too big for the size of his room. His living room is kinda small and though I told him to knock out a wall to make it bigger, I think he's gonna get stand mounted monitors and leave the wall where it is. Go figure. Perhaps you should get Carver to hook you up with 600 watts, that outta drive those Logans!!

As for the weather, I don't want it to warm up! I consider the winter great tube weather! I gotta enough tubes to warm up my apt good! I shut my radiator off completely because the winters here are mild(I grew up in Michigan and Minnesota) and the tubes give me what heat I need. (Well I do have a steam pole in the kitchen I can't turn off).

My dealer here (Tim at Experience Audio) has been patient and understanding with me and carries some nice equipment. He's the one who turned me onto the Grand Prix rack. When I said I wasn't an expert before, I meant it. I have listened to music, gone to concerts, toured with bands, worked in record stores and scoured the country from end to end for records but it wasn't until '96 that I discovered high-end audio. I have pursued more record collecting than audio equipment but in the last couple of years I have been trying to seriously upgrade my system. I've been to various dealers in cities I've lived in and been to a few Hi-Fi shows to hear equipment. Now I'm on the cusp of making some serious purchases and availing myself of the knowledge of others to help me out. It's tough to hear all the things you'd wanna hear! And I firmly believe that if I buy a "garbage" cartridge, because it's what I can afford, that when I upgrade to a better one, the experience with the lesser one will have been worthwhile. We accumulate knowledge through experience and I've found that each time I get something else, an amp, a cable, or whatever, that I hear a little better the next time. That's the learning curve!

Redpoint is in Arizona (the reason they split into Redpoint and Galibier was the distance between the two partners in Redpoint since one was in Colorado) but I have some personal business that will send me to Arizona in the spring so who knows.....I'll let you know...

Chris

I beleieve Redpoint's tables range from $5k-$15K depending upon options. The biggest differences to Galibier at the moment are free-standing (detached) arm pods and a slightly different Teflon platter. Prices probably increase with the amount of lead/oil dampening found in each component (plinth, platter, arm pod/s, and motor pod). Cosmetics are different as well and I beleive can be customized more than Galibier is offering presently. I've seen pics of Redpoints that were in a variety of colors (incl. Testarossa red:-)) rather than polished Aluminum. BTW, this is what I've picked up from reading and some brief conversations with Peter and Thom, I would still encourage you to call or email them to get more accurate info.

Matt

Hey Chris,

How’s Halloween? It’s quiet here.

I took a look at Michael Green’s web site, and his racks and stands are first rate. But then so are the prices. I will most likely make the stand for the turntable. I have to find a way to save money somehow. Maybe I can do it with the rack.

Just like you, I, too, will have Home Depot cut the wood for me. I think they charge a small fee, but it will be well worth it. In that way I won’t have to buy expensive cutting tools for a one-time use.

You have a Sonic Frontiers amp? That’s great. It’s really too bad Anthem stopped making tube gear. It seems like many people have components from Sonic Frontiers, and they seem to love them. Do your amps throw off that much heat so you don’t have to use the furnace? Wow! I wonder how a couple of tube monoblocks will fair in the summer heat of Tracy.

My learning experience has been a gradual one that has taken many years. I read a large number of reviews, listen to equipment whenever possible, and attend live symphony performances, which are now becoming quite expensive. Early on in my audio hobby career, I gravitated toward planar loud speakers, but could never afford them or house them properly in my listening room. My preference is for Magneplanar, either the MG 3.6R or the 20.1. At $12,000, it’s a bargain. However, my listening room is not big enough for either model so I purchased the Martin Logan Ascents instead. There is something special about a panel transducer; it recreates the original event so much more easily than most dynamically-driven loudspeakers that are priced under $10,000. The problem with such speakers is that a goodly part of the cost goes into the cabinet.

I didn’t know that Redpoint is in Arizona. And it doesn't help to know that their tables are apparently so expensive. So it looks like the Galibier will be a more viable choice for you, at least cost wise.

Artar1

In this thread, I have spent a considerable time talking about my upgrade aspirations, which for most people who love vinyl, cannot afford even if they won a small lottery. Now I know that seems difficult to believe given the systems of the people who have posted here, but it’s true. The fact is that most vinyl spinners are not prepared to spend between five and six thousand dollars on an analog front end. I still can’t believe that I am prepared to do so, but that’s the reality of audio today. Most requests for equipment suggestions on the Vinyl Asylum are for systems costing less than $2,000, and in some cases, much less.

So what do we tell such people? Do we tell them if they are not willing to spend at least four grand that they are simply deluding themselves? That doesn’t seem fair or realistic. I don’t know a single person who has spent that much. An audiophile acquaintance at work, for example, someone who makes about 140K per year and his wife nearly as much, is talking about buying a Rega P7 to play his vinyl collection, which must total about 1,000 LPs. He can certainly afford more, for he just dropped seven thousand for a pre-owned home theater processor. Maybe in his case, as it is with many, vinyl is now a sideshow, but I believe that even Circuit City is currently carrying the “black disc!”

So where am I going with this you might be asking as you stifle a yawn or two? Am I now equivocating over my recent decision, or am I simply wasting everyone’s time? The answer is “No” either case. While I was doing all of the research for my analog purchase, I also had an opportunity to unearth information about what would be considered a single step up from an absolute entry-level turntable/tonearm/cartridge combination. I am sure that anyone reading this thread, and whose eyes have glazed over after seeing some of the prices that have been bandied about, might rejoice to know that there are musically satisfying analog front ends that won’t empty the bank.

My first selection is the Musical Hall MMF-7. For a mere $989 (at LP Tunes) one can get a belt-driven turntable, the Pro-Ject Nine tonearm, and Goldring Eroica H moving coil phono cartridge. Normally this combination sells for about $1,200, and the Goldring carries an MSRP of about $400. The MMF-7 has received a number of very favorable reviews and seems to be well made. If you don’t like the cartridge, you can always sell it and buy a Clearaudio Aurum Bets S, Dynavector 20XL, Grado Reference Sonata (with its possible humming problem, although the cartridge does carry a tune I hear); Ortofon Kontrapunkt A (now on sale for $429), Sumiko Bluepoint Special EVO III, or Shure V15VxMR (which may be discontinued soon). If you know of a vinyl lover who has limited funds and is leery of buying used equipment, the MMF-7 combination is one I am sure that will bring years of delight.

For a few hundred more, one can buy the Rega P5, which sports the Rega RB700 tonearm. I believe this table is the replacement of the highly regarded P25, which has been discontinued. The RB700 has a higher effective mass than the Pro-Ject Nine, which means that lower compliance cartridges can be tried, such as the Audio Technica AT OC9. Like the MMF-7, the P5 is a virtual no brainer when it comes to setup, and should be easy to use and maintain. It does, however, only allow limited VTA adjustments, which can be circumvented by several aftermarket upgrades. In fact one of the attractions of owning a Rega is the number of upgrades available for it.

The last turntable on my economy list is the well regarded VPI Aries Scout. At $1,600, which includes the VPI JMW-9 tonearm, the Scout is a real winner that’s difficult to beat for price-performance. One has to spend upwards of $4,000 or more for a turntable and tonearm to obtain only a small improvement in sound from what I have read about the Scout. But keep in mind that the effective mass of the JMW-9 is only 7 grams and it has a somewhat limited provision for antiskating, which is achieved by twisting the tonearm cable, a novel idea to say the least. Because of the somewhat limited effective tonearm mass, one is advised against using something like the Denon DL103R, despite its famed reputation.

There are other turntable/tonearm combinations that one could try; the marketplace is certainly loaded with them. So what I have suggested here is not to be considered the absolute in sound for decent analog playback. Rather, I am offering a good starting point for anyone who is shell-shocked by the price of a Teres or Galibier turntable, or maybe even a Redpoint, just to name of few. Thus, the tables I have described in this post are real-world contenders in an industry enamored with opulence and high prices.

VPI JMW-9 (Effective Tonearm Mass: 7 Grams and Subsequent Resonant Frequencies for the Following Cartridges):

Clearaudio Aurum Beta S (10 gm, metal body; compliance = 15 cm; resonant frequency = 10 Hz; $500).

Dynavector 20XL (8.6 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 11.6 Hz; $525).

Grado Reference Sonata (6.5 gm; compliance = 20 cm; resonant frequency = 9.7 Hz; $500).

Ortofon Kontrapunkt A (10 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 11.1 Hz; $429 on sale).

Sumiko Bluepoint Special EVO III (9.6 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 11.3 Hz; $349).

Shure V15VxMR (6.6gm; compliance = 30 cm; resonant frequency = 7.9 Hz; $325).


Pro-Ject Nine (Effective Tonearm Mass: 9.5 Grams and Subsequent Resonant Frequencies for the Following Cartridges):

Clearaudio Aurum Beta S (10 gm, metal body; compliance = 15 cm; resonant frequency = 9.3 Hz).

Dynavector 20XL (8.6 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 10.8 Hz).

Grado Reference Sonata (6.5 gm; compliance = 20 cm; resonant frequency = 8.9 Hz).

Ortofon Kontrapunkt A (10 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 10.4 Hz).

Sumiko Bluepoint Special EVO III (9.6 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 10.5 Hz).

Audio Technica AT OC9 (8 gm; compliance = 9 cm; resonant frequency = 12.7 Hz; $280).

Rega RB700 (Effective Tonearm Mass: 11 (Approximate) Grams and Subsequent Resonant Frequencies for the Following Cartridges):

Clearaudio Aurum Beta S (10 gm, metal body; compliance = 15 cm; resonant frequency = 9 Hz).

Dynavector 20XL (8.6 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 10.4 Hz).

Grado Reference Sonata (6.5 gm; compliance = 20 cm; resonant frequency = 8.5 Hz).

Ortofon Kontrapunkt A (10 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 10 Hz).

Sumiko Bluepoint Special EVO III (9.6 gm; compliance = 12 cm; resonant frequency = 10.1 Hz).

Audio Technica AT OC9 (8 gm; compliance = 9 cm; resonant frequency = 11.9 Hz).

And finally let me recommend the Rogue Audio Stealth phono stage with the Op-amp option for $835. This unit is a nearly plug-and-play device in its simplicity, and should work well with the cartridges listed above. It offers 100, 300, 1000, and 47K ohm loading, and four gain settings: 40, 50, 60, and 65 dB. All settings are made internally using dip switches. Its sound has been compared to the Graham Slee ERA Gold but with the ability to play low-output MCs.

Enjoy!

My upgrade path has been sporadic with what cash I can scrounge up to spare. I was only able to get the Sonic Frontiers through the largesse of a loan from my then girlfriend who works at Microsoft. And yes, it puts out enough heat that I have decided to get a solid state preamp since any tube preamp upgrades would be too much.

No one I know spends cash on audio other than the basics. I have a friend that I am mentoring through this who has recently purchased a Rega 3 and I suggested a Dynavector 10X to suit his budget. He got some Paradigm Titans and though he's listening through cheap receiver to his ears he's hearing music. It's blowing away listening to CD's on his old big boombox and he's happy as a clam spending all him money on records. He's got plans to get the rest eventually, he loves listening to my system and I know that while he might not go that far, he wants to go a lot further. It's small steps according to budget and even those low budget steps make nice music. As Stereophile says about their cheaper recommendations; it's possible to put together a satisfying system with those components. And this is true.
Not all people get addicted enough to reach for that higher rung and to be honest I can understand that. For some it's enough just to hear the music clear and clean without worrying if that sub-upper-middle bass performance might be tad loose in the 40khz register or whatever.
For me I just love the sounds and the simple statement that there is so much more "there" there describes my ascent(or descent from my bank accounts point of view) to higher plateaus of audio.

And as I have found recently, tweaks can be a great way to upgrade your system without spending too much. While that Grand Prix audio amp stand was a huge improvement in refinement (and continues to boggle my mind) some Black Diamond Racing cones and pucks and a new Electro-Harmonix tube in my preamp are wringing out ever more performance.

I'll keep the Rogue in mind when my friend gets a phono stage, our local dealer carries their stuff. That's a nice recommendation.

And the Redpoint stuff is out of my reach, 7K+ for the basic table so I'm sticking with my initial choices. I saw a pic of the Teres 255 spinning recently and it was very cool looking, I might like the look of the clear platter better than the wood one!
And yes, I feel that I am totally insane to be thinking of spending this much on audio. Mainly because it's not a small portion of my income to do so. I have to scrimp and save to get there. But when I'm listening to great sounding music, it's all worthwhile.
A record collector friend of mine once said, concerning spending all your money on records, "When's the last time you missed a sandwich you didn't get to eat because you spent all your money on LP's? But you'll always remember that one record that you passed on in that store that you haven't seen since." Ain't it the truth?

Chris

Chris,

My upgrade path has been a long, but determined one. It’s not easy scraping up the money to buy the next component despite my comfortable salary and lifestyle. Audio is damn expensive, but is only eclipsed by cars and jewelry. Thank God my wife exercises considerable control when it comes to buying jewelry for herself in the same way I exercise restraint with all things audio.

Your friend will need to find a good integrated amp to replace that receiver. How much is he willing to spend? Plinius makes an outstanding integrated that’s not to absurdly expensive, but then again, one cannot beat the sound of a Jolida, which I would recommend highly.

You’re right about the addiction. Most people show considerable restraint when it comes to buying audio gear. Usually they buy the cheapest component that will get the job done, and no more. I seem to be the opposite: I dream about the best possible sound for the money, and then I stretch my budget even further until my head is in the clouds, but my bank account is in the dregs, so to speak. I reach for the highest rung, but it’s really amazing how high and costly that rung has become. One would have to be a multimillionaire to be able to afford many of the components reviewed in Stereophile these days.

I am going to give some of the Black Diamond products a try to see if they improve the sound of my system to any appreciable degree. But I remain a little skeptical.

>>And yes, I feel that I am totally insane to be thinking of spending this much on audio.<<

I agree totally, so much so, that I am rethinking my analog decision. Spending $6,000 on an analog front end is too much and I don’t feel too comfortable about it even though I can afford it. I also need to buy a phono stage and two or more amps for my system. As I was adding up the cost, the price was starting to creep upwards of $20,000 in additional expenditures! Wow! So I took a long cold shower.

So what will be my new choices? Well, I started looking at the VPI Scoutmaster with the Origin Live Encounter tonearm or the Thorens TD 850BC with the same arm. But I think the Scoutmaster will need a special arm board for the OL tonearm, and the Thorens looks cheap to me. So then I went back to the Teres 160, and that’s what I will buy. My analog front end will now have a Teres 160 turntable ($2,250), an Origin Live Encounter arm ($1,500), and a Shelter 501 II cartridge ($800). The total price will be $4,550, only $50 over my original budget. I think I can live with that!

In all likelihood, I would not be able to tell the difference between the Teres 160 and the 255. The only difference between the two is the hardwood used in the plinth; everything else is the same. Not only that, if Dsiggia uses a Teres 160 (and his system is great!), then it ought to be good enough for me!

That’s my very latest thinking. Now I will have enough money to finish the rest of my system by June or July of 2005! Whoopee!

According to Twl, who should know, an Encounter is barely better than a HIFI-modded Silver, which sells for nearly $600 less. In your present circumstnces that seems like an even more reasonable solution.

Artar, thanks for the kind system compliment. I think you'll be ecstatic with your front end. I will also add that you can place a want ad on the Gon for a OL Silver Mk I (easier to add the TWL mod) & purchase this arm used for about $600-$650, another significant decrease in cost. You won't lose a penny if you decide to re-sell this arm.

I may have missed it earlier in the thread, but what's your budget for a phono preamp? What are you considering?

Dsiggia,

In regards to the phono preamp, I am willing to spend up to $2,000. In a previous post I mentioned some of the phono stages that have caught my eye. To this list I have added a few more:

1. GSP ERA Gold V with either the GSP Elevator, or Bent Audio Mu step-us transformer ($1,750 to $1,952)

2. K&K Audio SE Stereo Phono Kit ($1,500)

3. Wright Sound Company WWP 200C with the WMT 100 Step-up Transformer, or Bent Audio Mu step-us transformer ($1,100 to $1,650)

4. AcousTech PH-1 Premium ($1,500)

5. Klyne phono board added to my current line stage ($2,000)

The K&K is very popular; both 4yanx and Ozzy62 use one in their systems. Amandarae uses the Wright Sound Company phono stage and seems to like it very much. The Klyne was reviewed by Larry Kay in Fi Magazine.

(http://www.klyne.com/pages/reviews.html)

Both the GSP and AcousTech are rated “Class A” in Stereophile for what it’s worth.

I appreciate any input you might have on this topic.

Thanks.

Hi Doug,

If I go with an OL arm, it will be an Encounter or higher. I will pass on the Silver.

Artar,

You've got some really nice choices for phono pre's. I've got a Supratek Cortese on the way, if it works out in my system I'll sell my SF & Tom Evans. I'm not saying it would be best for you, but you could consider a Supratek preamp with a phono section included.

I hope I'm not out of line in re-hashing the OL Silver. If you did purchase a used Silver at about $600-$650 you would save about $900 over a new Encounter. If the OL Silver doesn't do the job, you could easily upgrade to the Encounter without losing a dime.

Artar,

I understand yr monetary concerns. I'm starting to lean towards a Teres 255 to save a few dollars elsewhere. Since the main difference in the tables is in the wood and you need a phono pre I totally understand your decision. It's hard to decide where to spend the dollars. Since I don't own a car or jewelry or have a wife or kids I'm pretty much in this mess with only myself to answer to. I'm trying to stick to my desire to get the Schroeder DPS tonearm though it costs a ton. I agree with your assessment to stick with a good arm, it can make all the difference. I would think that's more noticable than whether the base of your table is baltic wood or cocobolo but I wouldn't be surprised if I were wrong there. Perhaps someone with experience in this area could weigh in on this matter.

As for tweaks, well they constantly have allowed me to make upgrades at little cost. B-stock Black Diamond cones can be had on Audiogon for $48 for a set of three and seem a cheap way to experiment. For me used cabling and vibration control have been how I have made incremental progress during periods of little extra income.

Thanks for the Jolida recommendation, I've heard their stuff and think it's nice but my friend is scared of tubes. He seems to regard my amp with suspicion and when I changed the tube in my pre he thought that seemed complicated though I told him that its as easy as changing a lightbulb. I'm not trying to sell him a specific paradigm though, I just want him to get into something decent that he's comfortable with. There's time enough later for upgrades or changes. I demo'ed the Plinius 8200 MkII integrated and while I thought that it was a fine unit, it was much too polite with hard rock music. It was mighty fine if you were listening to something like Elvis Costello or Peter Gabriel but with noisier music with more rhythmic drive it just didn't cut it. It didn't rock me and this left me cold. My friend listens to all rock so he needs something that can boogie. He's looking into Odyssey products since they make affordable gear and it's well regarded on audioasylum and many of the users seem to listen to a lot of his kind of music.

I'm still set on investigating my original purchases but waver from "sticker shock" to "the hell with it, let the dollars fall where they may, I want the best sound!". I still waver between the Schroeder and the Triplaner as the arm of choice but think I'm gonna stick with the former.

I would be interested in hearing more about the phono stages you mentioned above if anyone here as any experience with those. I've heard the Aesthetix Rhea and it is a great unit, really stellar sounding, but at $4000 it's nearly as much as your turntable budget. Where do you want to go today?

Dsiggia,

I am not surprised to learn of your Supratek Cortese purchase; it will be a natural addition to your system, which is quite nice indeed. But you have a very good preamp already with the Sonic Frontiers Line 3SE. I wouldn’t expect a huge gain in sonic performance going from your current unit to the Cortese, but you will have a lot of fun doing the tube rolling I’m sure. When do you expect your Cortese to arrive? If I were to do it all over again, I would opt for the Cortese myself. Yet, I have absolutely no complaints about my Klyne. Do let me know when it arrives. What will you do with the Sonic Frontiers unit? If you can afford it, I would keep it.

Thanks for the offer on the Tom Evans unit, but I think I will either go with the Wright Sound or the K&K phono stage. I need more information on both units before I make my final decision.

No, I don’t think you’re out of line with your suggestions regarding the OL Silver. If I go with an OL arm, it will most likely be the Encounter.

By the way, I think it’s interesting that Michael Fremer had very favorable comments about the OL Encounter in a recent Stereophile review, but that tonearm was not listed in Stereophile’s Recommended List.

Chris,

As each day passes, my price sensitivity seems to be increasing, notwithstanding the recent political events affecting the White House. I told my wife the other day that Social Security for her and myself will now be either greatly reduced or non-existent. So I told her that we will need to accumulate an additional $300,000 in cash outside our aggressive retirement account savings to accommodate the spiraling health insurance costs, as well as other standard living expenses that would have been covered by SS.

In a totally unrelated event, I purchased, quite by impulse, a new Shure V15VxMR phono cartridge for $212 from Beach Audio. Normally the cartridge sells for $325, but Shure is discontinuing the unit so it’s getting dumped. Some places, however, are charging more than the going “street” price in the mistaken belief that some people will pay it.

The Shure is a very good cartridge, and is not a piece of junk per se, nor is it a world beater. Is it better than the Shelter 501? I doubt it. I have read no review to indicate otherwise. The Shure gets me in the game with little-to-no money, and will make a decent backup cartridge once the Shelter arrives sometime in the future. Its purchases like these that will enable me to put an analog system together sooner than I expected, maybe by June.

If you go with the Teres 255, I am sure you won’t be disappointed. On the other hand you may continue to long for the Galibier; it’s a tough decision I know. It all comes down to how important analog audio is to you and how much you are willing to pay for it. If you were to buy the Galibier, you would never have to upgrade again. I mean, what would you upgrade to, a La Luce? And if I were buying the Galibier, I would go for their top-of-the line unit on aesthetic grounds; otherwise, it would be the Teres 255.

And I understand your desire to get the Schroeder DPS; it’s a beautiful arm, but how much does it cost? I bet it’s a fortune, right?

I’m going to have to agree with you about the materials used for the base of the Teres. While I’m sure Doug, Twl, and others will be able to hear the differences that the various hardwoods impart to the music, I doubt whether I can. And if there were differences I could hear, I bet they would be very subtle indeed, so subtle in fact that it would be hard for me to justify the added expenditure. I feel that the more exotic woods are more attractive to be sure, but whether they are sonically superior to such an extent so that someone like myself could hear and appreciate the difference is another matter altogether.

Artar,

I expect the Cortese to arrive at the end of next week. Not that the SF is a slouch, but I'm expecting a sustantial increase in performance over the SF. If it doesn't work out I'll keep the SF, we'll see.

As far as the SF & Tom Evans, I'm sorry if you got the impression I was trying to sell them to you, just mapping out my plan.

Dsiggia,

Oops, my mistake about the Tom Evans. That's what I get for drinking wine while trying to type a e-post: I get everything all screwed up. While in that condition, why even my Bose Wave Radio sounds good! : > )

Artar,

My issue with the Galibier is that I would only be able to afford the Quattro with the PVC platter, which is no treat for the eyes. I share your concerns about the financial future and am starting to think more about a Teres. As for the arm, other threads have stated that the Schroeder can be fussy to play with and as I have little experience futzing with arms, I'm starting to think that I should explore other arms options with easier set-up and maintenance.

This upcoming weekend I will demo the Grand Prix Audio rack at home to see what I think of the whole rack since I have heard such system increases with the amp stand. I'm thinking that I want to hear what my components sound like free from mechanical effects before I start upgrading them. This will be interesting to say the least to see if it's performance on source components and my pre will be as powerful as it was with my amp! This will set back source component upgrades but what's the point if their sound is comprimised?

The pull here is to put together upgrades by next year so that when I go back to school in 2006 I am starving with blissfully wonderful music, so I go back and forth on the money thing. The future is scarily uncertain at this point, I almost feel safer having my money in components and LP's these days.

You're right about the Galibier and upgrading though the Platine La Verdier is what I was thinking I would want to be upgrading to.........

And a little voice inside my head keeps saying "Get a Graham arm, at least you'll know how to use it....."

Chris

Letch, the unsuspended turntables will generally do best with a rigid, solidly coupled stand. Any rubber or soft absorbers between the TT and the stand will be counterproductive, compared to one without any rubber or soft absorbers in it.

This is why you rarely see any Teres tables or other high mass unsuspended turntables on stands with soft rubbery absorbers anywhere on them. Dynamics of the table are negatively affected, when soft absorbers are used. This is one of the reasons why there is no suspension on an unsuspended turntable. Adding a "suspension" by using a stand with a "suspension" negates part of the design of the table.

I have verified this on my own Teres turntable, and many other Teres users(ask Chris Brady of Teres) agree from their own experiences also.

If you are looking for a high-performance rack which has the proper construction for this, try a Sistrum platform. It is most definitely in the league of the GPA for performance, and is better suited to unsuspended TT use.

Disclaimer: I work for Starsound Technologies, manufacturer of Sistrum platforms and other audio products.

Twl,

Thanks for the info, I wondered about this. For a GPA rack, Would putting a Vibraplane or granite or something underneath a non-suspended table make this workable?

If I got this rack would having a suspended table be fine? My current table is an Oracle and it sits on a Bright Star Big Rock on a rigid rack. I was curious how it was going to work on the GPA.....

As I said in an earlier post, the engineering dynamics of suspended vs non-suspended tables can be confusing and there are a lot of people who swear up and down on both sides of the equation of which should go where when discussing bouncy wood floors, so I really appreciate the head up on this particular instance.

Letch, granite slabs are a common platform for the Teres tables, and other high-mass unsuspended tables. I have heard mostly good reports about using granite as a base with these tables. I personally do not use granite under mine, but it would be much preferred to using anything rubbery. I once experimented with some soft materials under the cone feet of my Teres. I used only very thin sheet materials, which compressed quite a bit when loaded by the weight of the TT. Even with this thin layer of springy material, the dynamics and leading edges of the music were severely blunted. When I tried thicker stuff, it got even worse. In my opinion, the results of the damping layers caused much worse results than any vibration problems that may have been there. When I returned to just the Audiopoints, then the sound returned as it was. I have only rigid materials between my TT and the floor. Interestingly, I had alot more trouble with footfalls and floorborne vibrations when I had my suspended Linn, than I do with my Teres. The Linn used to "dance around" on it's suspension all the time, even when I would tip-toe around the house. My unsuspended Teres just sits there, rock solid, and there seems to be no effect on it from walking around the house. That was a big plus for me, and I have no desire for another suspended TT again.

Regarding your Oracle situation, I was a high end dealer's analog setup guy during the 1980's. We were a Linn dealer, and also had a number of other TT lines, as well as having alot of trade-in tables around. I got alot of experience with alot of different tables, arms, and cartridges during these years. My experience was that the suspended turntables such as Linn, Oracle, and such, favored the use of a lightweight(lower mass) rigid stand with no flex. The higher mass unsuspended tables preferred heavier mass rigid stands. This apparently related to the resonant frequencies of the different types of stands, and the effects on the turntable's suspension(or lack of it). But, both preferred rigid type stands, just different mass. I also recommend using a low stand that is as low as is comfortable for you to use. A low stand has less flex or ability to move around, and also has a shorter vibration path.

Regarding the Bright Star, I've never used one, but I'd recommend getting a suitable lightweight rigid stand, and trying the TT with the Bright Star, and without it, to see which you prefer. My guess is that it would be better without it, but you should test it and see which you like.

Also, as they say "YMMV" because systems vary for resolution capability, and listener's tastes vary. Some people will prefer an "overdamped" quiet sound, over a highly dynamic sound. Generally, when you start "pushing the envelope" in dynamics and resolution, then the "warts" of the system start to show themselves more negatively. This can be irritating to some people, and they prefer to damp down the system to cover up the warts from showing. That is pretty common these days.

Ultimately, it is what you prefer that is best. I try to push the envelope as far as I can, and then attempt to correct the flaws that show up(at their sources). My budget limits me in how well I can do this, but I do what I can with the budget I have. Also, I accept certain sonic flaws in order to gain some other sonic benefits that are important to me and my sensitivities as a listener.

If you want my guess about what will happen with the GPA, I'd say that it will be a quiet presentation with very little floorborne vibration problems(they do that very well). It will also very likely sound overdamped and will have little affect on any airborne vibrations entering the system. The GPA is great for making the system quiet and "polite".

If you are looking to extend the performance envelope of the musical dynamics, resolution, PRAT, and "lifelike sound", then there are other ways which would likely yield better results in these areas.

Another insightful post Twl. Listen to him folks, he knows of what he speaks. For maximum performance from an unsuspended table...

That squishy bit is best which squishes least, which finally amounts to this, that squishy bit is best which squishes not at all. (Apologies to Jefferson and Thoreau!)

If your goal is maximum performance...

Generally, when you start "pushing the envelope" in dynamics and resolution, then the "warts" of the system start to show themselves more negatively. This can be irritating to some people, and they prefer to damp down the system to cover up the warts from showing. That is pretty common these days.

Very true, though rather sad. I think alot of people are so traumatized by the problems they hear with RBCD that they can't bear the thought of more resolution. To them, that just means more sonic pain. This is a pity, since vinyl is capable of breathtaking micro-dynamics and resolution without such pain. It's just very hard to do, and unfortunately very expensive too.

We still enjoy pushing that envelope, but it gets harder as a system advances. You do learn more this way of course. If you can do this while still enjoying the music it's extremely rewarding. If you're just chasing detail for its own sake, "Wow! Did you hear that?", it may not be.

Guys,

Thanks for the info. I was thinking that perhaps a vibraplane or a slab of granite on top of the GPA would help but I will look into the idea of a shorter stand for the turntable and another stand for the other equipment. So I guess the general consensus is rigid stands all the time for all turntables.
I'm wanting to replace the Oracle and I've already stated my plans. My experience with tables mirrors yours Twl, with my brother's situation where his Ariston skips from footfalls and his rock hard Kenwood does not.

In the defense of the GPA amp stand I will say that while it has provided a quieter background I have not felt any loss of dynamics or a more "polite" sound. As someone who listens to noisy rock and roll, I am very sensitive to the overly "polite" presentation. I have auditioned some equipment that sounded extremely good until it had to handle something with complex rythmic drive and then it fell apart by sucking the life out of it. Overly refined.

This is great info and will help me make a better evaluation when I demo the rack this upcoming weekend. You guys have pointed out very important issues for me to be listening for and that will make this a more useful demo as a result. While I am seeking to lose mechanical noise from vibrations I am not looking to overdamp the sound.

Detail is very important to me and I wish to capture a larger sense of dynamics and the subtlety of dynamic shifts as they occur. But overall musicality is the issue. I recently heard a Levinson system driving Wilson Watt Puppies and was struck by the massive control of the speaker, the huge amount of detail and giant staging, but overall it struck me as hard and unmusical. I heard Wilson's in a Musical Fidelity context and it was the opposite though, it sounded too soft but more musical. Much like Goldilocks, I'm looking for "just right".

Believe, me, I am looking for more resolution and will continue to push the envelope as much as possible as my system advances. I appreciate the info I get here to help me see the underlying issues and to be a better listener. And as Doug put so well, it's all in the service of the overall musicality.

Thanks guys,
Chris

Chris, you are going the right way, by auditioning these different things. Nobody can tell you what is "right for you", except you. We can only make suggestions based on what our past experiences have been, and we don't have your system and listening environment here at our homes.

To find your "Goldilock's" products which sound "just right" will require your listening to various things to see what makes the most impact on your listening sensitivities.

That is the best way to proceed.

Regarding your GPA amp stand, I have no doubt that it was a nice sounding addition to your system. However, sometimes there are some differences in the applications, like turntables vs amps. And again, there are differences in listening tastes.

One day, call me up and get one of the Sistrum stands to listen to. We'll be happy to take it back if you don't like it. I'm betting you'll keep it. I have an extremely high resolution and very dynamic audio system, with analog-only source, state-of-the-art SET OTL amp, and 100db sensitivity speakers, all battery powered, which will resolve the most hidden details that are below most other system's noise floors. I use Sistrum and Audiopoints under everything, and I don't have to do it just because I work for them. I do it because the sound improvement is significant. I gained an extra db and a half of headroom, just by using this stuff. My already good dynamics were improved quite a bit, detail was even better, and everything was more "in focus". The results of the Sistrum platforms under my speakers was amazing. All cabinet resonances that caused some of the colorations was eliminated, and resulted in an extraordinary improvement in my speaker performance. The Audiopoints vs the BDR cones that came standard with my Teres TT, was much in favor of the Audiopoints. And these are both rigid type points. I've had superb results from this stuff in my system, and that was why I went to work for Starsound.

you lucky boys all that disposable income to spend on a needle.

Twl,

After I demo the GPA I will give you a call, give me the number. I'll ask for Twl the Audio guru. Seriously I greatly appreciate the feedback that I've gotten from you and others. I should give Sistrum a try, I've got nothing to lose but the shipping which is neglible.

BTW, I am familiar with your system and am anxiously awaiting for you to finally post a photo of your custom made beauty!

I am very interested in what you say about Sistrum and speakers as well. I'll look at the website and see what the options are.
I have used BDR cones extensively and have found them better than the brass cones that I used before but I have not tried Audiopoints. I was getting good results with BDR so I felt satisfied in that respect but, there's always more performance to tweak out of a system.

When I get the GPA I'll also experiment with the turntable on and off the Bright Star, that will also give me some data on what's going on with the rack. Though it's a suspended table, it'll have to do. I won't be buying my new table until next year so no testing with a Teres(or a Galibier) for now.

Thanks,
Chris

Chris,

I understand your situation with the Galibier. Their top-of-the-line model really catches my fancy, only eclipsed by the Redpoint tables and the most expensive ones coming from Transrotor and La Luce. As you know, however, I can’t play in those leagues. I will never have the money to buy something like that.

If you go with a Teres, you will need to go with the finished cocobolo 255; otherwise, you will be required to do some finishing work. Now the Teres web site claims only a couple of hours are required; I am skeptical of that assertion. From the Teres 160 pictures, it looks like the acrylic parts also need to be polished. If that’s true, I think a polishing wheel will be needed.

The Schroeder is a well-respected arm. If you have your heart set on it, you might as well get it. But it does look a little temperamental and perhaps somewhat difficult to install. For me the price is a major barrier.

I agree that a good rack is essential. I have a reasonably decent one from Bell’Ogetti, but it is not audiophile quality. I wanted to build one myself, but my wife talked me out of it. I believe that one can build a very sturdy and reasonably good sounding rack from scratch for a fraction of what some of the more exotic ones cost. But then you will need the tools and the time to complete the project.

On several occasions you mentioned going back to school. What program will you be enrolling in?

Artarl,

Finishing a Teres hardwood base really does take only a few hours. Of course the whole process takes a few days because you need to let the finish dry between coats of tung oil. But each coat only takes 10-15 minutes and the initial sanding is trivial and usually is not needed at all. The 200 series turntables have hardwood armboards that just need the same finish as the base.

For the 150 and 160 it takes a little more effort because the acrylic armboard needs to be sanded and polished. The armboard polishing is still less than an hour even if you don't have a buffer.

All of the other parts are ready to go and don't need any work.

Chris

Twl,

Perhaps you might consider doing a column for one of the audio magazines. I learn so much more from your posts here than from my subscriptions to TAS and Stereophile. Once I finish setting up my system, I plan to cancel my subscription to both.

“Nobody can tell you what is "right for you," except you. We can only make suggestions based on what our past experiences have been, and we don't have your system and listening environment here at our homes.”

This statement is perhaps the most enlightened audio observation I have ever seen. Nearly all the audio dealers I have met over the past 30 years and most of the people who write for the audio press are so opinionated, arrogant, argumentative, and hackneyed in their stance on what sounds good and on what equipment others should buy and own it goes way beyond disheartening. It’s nice to know that I have the freedom to choose what’s right for me and my tastes in music without having to worry about what others might think or how the self-appointed audio critics might react to my audio selections. It’s really refreshing to read your posts, Twl; it makes being an audiophile really fun and exciting.

Artar,

I agree with yr assessment of Twl's posts. I have learned a lot on this thread alone! The quote of his you posted above is exactly it, I have been made to feel that information has been offered and that I am on the right track to try it myself and see how it works in my own situation, no dogmatism, no ego. As we have mentioned before this is the basis of a true dialectic. So rare these days......

I am going back to college to work towards my Doctorate in Philosophy. I have a BA in Liberal Arts(Philosophy and Mathematics) and have decided to leave software alone and get back to things I really love, reading books and discussing them with others. I have written on art and music in the past and would like to do so in a more academic setting. So I nail down what I can with my system and then starve for a few years. I have thousands of records and CD's to keep me busy when things are lean. I'm sure I will continue to collect what I can here and there but the financial emphasis will be on getting through the program, knock out the dissertation and teach and write. Hopefully to contribute something lasting along the way.
We'll see, now if I can just decide on a tonearm......oh the travails of tonearm philosophy!, which way to go???.....

Chris

Dear Artar1,
"The Schroeder is a well-respected arm. If you have your heart set on it, you might as well get it. But it does look a little temperamental and perhaps somewhat difficult to install. For me the price is a major barrier."
Just to give me some insight as to how people perceive my products: What gives you the feeling that my arms(or where you referring to the Reference only)are difficult to install?
It takes just two holes(M4-tapped, if you´re using a metal or acrylic board, 3,5-4mm woodscrew, if your tt has a wooden mounting board). The other model are no challenge either(21-25mm hole, one or three mounting screws required). No elongated holes or any need to get underneath the turntable.
As for the set up, Chris Brady can attest to the ease of set up once you´ve under stood how the arms work(no rocket science, hehe). BTW, one of the reasons I discontinued the No.1 arm is that it did require more time to get the set up spot on.
Pricing, yes, this gives me a headache too, but the weak $ is something that is beyond my influence(scary if I had any ;-)). I promise that as soon as the $ goes up again the prices will be adjusted...
None of the above is to say that one shouldn´t go for what one feels most comfortable with(sound, operation, looks).
Whichever arm you´re choosing, if you put it on a Teres or a Galibier, you´ve come alot closer to the "final" recordplayer.

Best,

Frank Schröder

From my trial and error experimentation I've come to the same conclusion as TWL and Dougdeacon. Unsuspended turntables don't sound good with spongy isolation beneath them. Now that doesn't mean you can't use some form of vibration damping or isolation - just don't use spongy stuff.

I would love to build a seismic sink (aka sand box), but my situation doesn't allow it. Here's what I improvised, and it works great for me:

http://home.att.net/~ptmconsulting/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-664443.html

TT on a maple butcher block, with DIY rollerblocks underneath. My kids can run through the room without skipping the needle. And the sound is quick and detailed and musical.

Enjoy,
Bob

Much like Goldilocks, I'm looking for "just right".

Good analogy. Aren't we all?!

Paul and I are currently reviewing two ZYX cartridges, the Airy2 and Airy3, with a third model possibly to follow. Without spilling the beans I can say that in one sonic particular we'd both occasionally prefer something in between, at least for certain records.

Paul said he'd like a 2.7, I'd prefer a 2.8! ;-)

Seriously enough, this small difference shows that individual preferences do matter. Oddly, if we'd tried to predict in advance which direction each of us would lean, we both would have predicted the opposite direction from the one I just joked about. Try as we all do to communicate our musical and sonic impressions in words, there's no substitute for hearing.

The Schroeder is a well-respected arm. If you have your heart set on it, you might as well get it. But it does look a little temperamental and perhaps somewhat difficult to install.

The Reference is certainly no more difficult to install than any other arm. You have to fine tune the adjustments of course, as with any good arm, but once set up it looked perfectly stable to me. I didn't perceive anything "tempermental" about it.

It does have a certain delicacy that takes getting used to. There's no finger lift or armtube lock! It's not an arm for the fumble-fingered or careless. The arm itself is robust enough but cantilevers are not. Since the arm is not locked when sitting on the armrest, I'd keep the stylus guard on at all times. That's about the only risk I could see.

Guys, thanks for your very nice comments about my posts.

I just call 'em as I see 'em.

Even though I work for an audio company, I always try to maintain my perspective as an audiophile and a prospective buyer/user of equipment.

Chris(Letch), my phone number at Starsound is 1-800-307-0728. I'd be happy to discuss anything audio related with you, anytime you want to call. Even if it is not Starsound related, or having anything to do with buying anything. People call me all the time to discuss their systems, and what I might think of the possible changes they are making, or what things to consider.

Also, anyone else reading this that would like to talk to me on the phone is invited to call anytime too. I'm sure that some people reading this have already spoken with me on the phone. Alot of people call me about analog stuff, and we don't even sell any TT gear(although I have a couple of designs in the file cabinet drawer). I probably also get about 10 emails a day about analog related stuff, from the Audiogon members.

I actually like discussing this stuff.

And you know how it goes. Eventually, everybody needs some points, or a rack, or something. So we get our chance to get our stuff auditioned. Over 90% of the time, when someone listens to our stuff, they keep it. All we ever ask for is a fair chance in the listening environment. Most of our sales go to buyers who already have something we make, and they know how good it is. We are always looking for a chance to let someone new hear how our products can reveal more of the sound of the components that they already own. We may not have made your components, but we make the stuff that helps your components sound the best they can. It is like an equipment upgrade, but you keep the same equipment. You just hear more out of it.

I'm a bit confused about putting an unsuspended table on a soft surface. My Well Tempered Classic (unsuspended) has a polyurethane rubber type of "footie" over the feet and the factory has told me that it sounds best this way. I've always presumed this was designed into the table to wick away vibrations that are generated by the table (as opposed to preventing external vibration from getting to the table).

I was thinking about making a base out of wood with a space in it to fill it with shot/sand to wick away vibrations caused by the table/cartridge, but maybe I still need the rubber footies??

Perhaps someone could shed some light?

BTW- Frank Schroder- I've read a number of your posts with great interest. Although I don't comprehend all of what you've contributed, it's fascinating. Thanks.

Regards
Jim

Twl,

Thanks for the number, I will call you after I have spent my alloted 4 days with the GPA rack this coming weekend to share my impressions and see where I think about going from there. I appreciate this offer.

Frank,
Thanks for weighing in on this one. To be honest I have never installed my own tonearm, I have my audio dealer do it and do cartridge installation as well. This will be my first experience with a tonearm that I plan to be totally responsible for so when I'd read some people's comments that your arms might be more difficult to set up(which I know have to be taken with a grain of salt) it makes me think that perhaps I should get something that might be easier to use. Not so much to install but for all the settings, like a Graham. And of course, I only have what I read to go on, I've never seen or heard one of your tonearms.
On the other hand it sounds like your arms are truly wonderful sounding and are very highly regarded and this appeals to my sense to get a "final" set-up. My current improvements to my system are to make the stretch to get off the audio merry-go round so I can focus my attentions elsewhere. I imagine that your arms are worth every penny but I don't see the $ going up anytime soon so I doubt there will be a price decrease in the works.

Doug - I can be fumblefingers and careless and though I would never "pull a Fremer" and try to install a $4500 cartridge after 3 margaritas(!) I have whacked the cantilever off a Blue Point Special reaching for the tonearm with my right hand while my left was brushing a record at the same time.......

The Schroeder DPS was what I was thinking of and I still am....thanks for the reality check guys, it keeps me thinking.....

As for the squishie bits controversy, we'll see what happens this weekend. Since the sorbothane footers used in GPA racks are designed for specific weights and for compression I'll guess I'll hear it if it's overdamped. But what I'm hearing now with this amp stand is amazing and it was previously sitting on a Michael Green Amp stand with BDR cones and pucks and this Grand Prix Audio stand has blown that combo so far out of the water it ain't funny......

Jim - I saw some days back a review of the Ginko stands. Those are new items AFAIK and not heard them personnaly, but looks like a promising design and sensible priced.

Fernando

Chris, I think that you'll like the GPA rack. It is a very good one. There are really only 2 racks in that upper level category, and those are GPA and Sistrum. Our approach is totally different to the solution of the vibration issue. GPA tries to stop the vibrations from going up from the floor, and Sistrum tries to provide an exit path for the vibrations to transfer to ground. Of course, we feel that our solution is the better one. In either case, you'll have a very good performing rack. It's sort of like deciding between a Walker and a Rockport. You're not going to have anything bad, whichever one you decide upon. Your particular application will determine the outcome.

Fernando- Thanks, but my question is about the apparent paradox of the WT table having soft rubber feet when the conventional wisdom is to have unsuspended tables sitting on a hard surface. Other unsuspended tables typically have hard or even spiked feet.

Regards
Jim

Jim, I haven't owned a WT turntable myself, but typically a manufacturer puts feet on the TT that are "the best that they found under the $2 price point that they are willing to spend on feet". These "footie" feet may very well have been the best sounding ones that WT tried for under a couple of dollars. But, that doesn't necessarily mean that they will outperform all other feet on that table. It only means that they will outperform all other very low cost feet, in the opinion of the manufacturer. It is quite possible, and even probable, that a high quality and probably much more expensive set of properly designed "feet" would significantly kick the butt of those stock feet on the WT. It happens on nearly every other TT made, so I expect it would be the same in your case.

When manufacturers are designing to a price-point, things like feet really take a back seat,and get the lowest amount of consideration and budget.

Well, this thread has been a little dead but since we left off with the rack scenario I figured that I would report my findings. I have been living with the Grand Prix Audio Monaco stand for 6 days now and couldn't be happier. I would say that the general statements made about squishy bits and turntables should, like most general statements, be qualified specificly. Perhaps some have had negative experiences in these areas but I think it's different as applied to the Grand Prix rack.

I've had a rigid Michael Green rack for a long time. In ordre to isolate my Oracle turntable(sitting on a Bright Star Big Rock) from floor vibrations that made it skip with footfalls, I built a wood platform for the rack where the 20 inches underneath the rack was suspended. This was the only way to get back to playing vinyl. It worked but was a less than elegant solution to the creaky floorboard problem.

Enter the Grand Prix Audio rack. With the rack set up on Apex footers, I have no skipping problems. This is with the Oracle set directly on the top shelf of the stand. When I put the table on the Bright Star Big Rock, it was isolated even further. Music has never sounded so good. The backgrounds are jet black, music has far more 3 dimensional depth and music rocks when it rocks, and swings when it swings. I have played The Stooges Funhouse to make sure that the blistering roar of guitar on "TV Eye" is everything that it should be, I have played Bach's Cello Suites by Starker, to make sure that the impressive nature of that intimate sound is preserved. The entire system is sounding natural and at ease. The Miles Davis Quintet box set has been been playing quite a bit because of the impressive nature of the sound I am getting. Yo La Tengo, Butthole Surfers, The Cows, John Zorn, Budapest and Emerson String Quartets playing Beethoven, Fritz Wunderlich singing, John Fahey strumming guitar, it's all been marvelous.

With my other rack I had Black Diamond Cones and Pucks and Townsend Seismic Sinks and Bright Star Little Rocks and brass cones etc etc and all I had done was tweak so hard for detail (with my all tube system)that when I got a new SS preamp(Pass X1), it sounded brittle and hard. Put the equipment on the GPA stand and the Pass sounds detailed and full. I was over tweaking to make up for the lack of transparency in other components. Now all those components sound better than they ever have. Has it fixed them? No, my CD player is long in the tooth and definitely due for an upgrade. I'm planning on getting a new turntable. The real deal here is that I feel for the first time I am hearing what my components sound like, and more, what they are capable of. And I have done it without a bajillion $$$ in tweaks.

This has changed my views on upgrades. I figured I'd get around to getting a new rack when I had my system "done". Now I'm realizing that I need to be able to hear what my system sounds like so I can contemplate what the next steps would be.

Now, about those squishy bits, they're rated for the weight each shelf is going to be holding and this puts them at a certain compression. This means that I'm not going to be overdamping, I'm gonna be damping, to quote Goldilocks again, "Just right." Read the GPA web site, it will explain the technical nature of the multiple ways that these stands deal with airborne AND floorborne vibrations better than I. As for high-mass tables. Well, I sent an email to GPA and was pleasantly surprised to get a phone call from Alvin Lloyd. We discussed how his stands worked and what my concerns are. He has many customers that use these stands with non-suspended tables and I felt confident at the end of our talk that he had addressed my concerns. Alvin told me to try my table without the Bright Star and then try it with, he never seemed dogmatic about how I should try to use the stand and never told me to throw away my tweaks but invited me to try them out to find what sounds best to me. I appreciated this because, as we've discussed above, the only person who can truly know what sounds best is ourselves.

Having this here has opened up the entire room. I live in a tiny studio so this is nice. But now the platform is gone and I can get to the windows to open them up. This stand just looks beautiful.

The end result being that I'm more than a GPA demo'er, I am now a proud owner. Sorry Twl, I know that the Sistrum Stands are great but my equipment sounded so good on this that there was no way I was letting it go.

I want to thank Tim at Experience Audio for coming over on his day off to bring and set-up the rack because that was when it was convenient for me. He never pushed the rack on me, I came to GPA on my own and after being blown away by the amp stand, was hungry for more.

To get back to analog, I have contacted both Thom Mackris and Chris Brady in Colorado and confirmed availability for the next couple of months. I am going to buy tickets this weekend and will be flying out sometime (except during CES) to see my pal in Colorado and to check out some awesome turntables.

As for the $800 Cartridge? Well, Experience Audio is also a Shelter dealer so I'll neatly end where we began, with the Shelter 501 on the table or more precisely, on the arm.

Thanks to Twl, Artar1, DougDeacon and the rest who have made this thread a real journey for me. Soon to end up in Audio Nirvana.......

Chris

Hi Chris!

Nice post. I've been under the weather so to speak. And I have been doing a lot of thinking about my priorities in regards to vinyl. Tomorrow, I will post some of my thoughts and respond to what you have written.

Artar1

Glad you've found nirvana.

Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.

Maybe someday, you'll hear the Sistrum, and understand why I said what I did.